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Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million

kingh99 said:
The Texans won't shop Mario Williams. They just won't. They couldn't get his value shopping him. They are going to quietly go about the business of resigning him. Now that doesn't preclude the possibility of another team seeing the chance of possibly enticing the Texans to do a deal and if that was the case then sure, you always have to consider ways to improve your team.

It's going to be up to the rest of the league if he stays or goes. See Patriots trade of Seymour for how it's done. Almost identical points in their careers when the trade came. Is Mario worth a conditional top 10 #1? That's pretty close to value in my opinion. This team would compete instantly for Superbowl after Superbowl with a frontline QB out of the draft. RG3 type talent would instantly take this team over the top for a decade if the coaching staff stayed in place. It would be the new southern dynasty.
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99, it is not about getting value for Mario; rather about getting what you can if it is decided to trade him. I cannot imagine anyone even Mario's biggest fan thinking we could get a top 10 first round for him. Most fans either love him or hate him. Few seem to step back & just give a fair eval. It is up to Robert McNair only to decide if Mario remains a Texan. Regardless of any offer, Bob could turn it down
 
Dutchrudder said:
Great effort compiling all that, but there are a few more things to consider.

I added up those contracts you posted and got 29.19 million, not 36. Maybe someone else can double check the math for us.
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I think the extra 7 mil is based on the assumption of the cap rising from 120 to 127.
 
Dutchrudder said:
Great effort compiling all that, but there are a few more things to consider.

I added up those contracts you posted and got 29.19 million, not 36. Maybe someone else can double check the math for us.

Garcia and Delhomme didn't make enough this year to effect the 2012 cap of the Texans. If either gets re-signed, that new money will of course count. Matt Turk made 2 million deal with Jax, but was released. We likely paid him minimum for the games he played (terms were undisclosed), which means there won't be any significant money to count towards your total. Mike Brisiel is also a free agent this year, but I don't know what he makes, I would assume around 500k.


Contracts that will be going up next year:
Andre Johnson at at 6,000,000 6,500,000
DeMeco Ryans at at 5,800,000 5,900,000
Matt Schaub at at 5,700,000 7,150,000
Antonio Smith at at 4,600,000 5,500,000
Eric Winston at at 4,500,000 5,500,000
Kevin Walter at at 3,000,000 3,500,000
Matt Leinart at at 2,500,000 3,000,000 (probably will be cut)
Wade Smith at at 1,750,000 2,000,000
Rashad Butler at at 1,017,280 1,532,720
Brian Cushing at at 774,000 1,153,000
Kareem Jackson at at 405,000 700,000

Total cost 6.389 million in escalations from those contracts alone.

There are 12 rookie deals that will all be going up 85k each this year for a total cost of 1.02 million in escalations.

Contracts going down next year:
Shaun Cody at at 3,500,000 2,250,000

Savings of 1.25 million

Contract bought out:
David Anderson WR 333,333

Savings of 333k

Wild cards - Don't know the year-to-year salaries/bonuses:
Jonathan Joseph's deal
Daniel Manning's deal
JJ Watt, Reed, Harris, etc deals

Any of these deals could go up or down. For our purposes let's assume they stay the same.

Adding up all the costs and savings I get 6.033 million in extra cost next year. Subtract that and 2 million for Turk from your 36 million and you get approximately 28 million in free capspace to work with. If the total is 29 million as I got from adding your contracts, we have only 21 million to work with. Which makes it much more difficult to sign Foster, Mario and Myers.
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Thanks for the extra info. I think I added 7 million with the assumption that the cap will rise from $120 million to $127 million.

This is from Wikipedia. Might not be 100% accurate.

2011 $120 million
2010 Uncapped
2009 $123 million
2008 $116 million
2007 $109 million
2006 $102 million
2005 $85.5 million

As you can see the sallary cap has risen at least $7 million each year, minus 2011 due to the new CBA being put in place.

The only other extra cost I can think of at this point is possible playoff escalators that players and coaches earned.
 
srrono said:
R.Smith may be able to resign him with some cap movement. I am leaning toward franchise tag trade. I got this from McClain's Chat today
Players will redo their contracts to lower their cap figure. But to get them to do it you have to give them a signing bonus that can be prorated for cap purposes over the life of the contract. Say a player makes $20 million
this season, and you want to reduce his cap figure. You sign him to a
new five-year contract and give him a 30 mil signing bonus with a
first-year base salary of $2.5 million. For cap purposes, he counts
7.5 million this year rather than $20 million. That saves a lot of
cap dollars to be spent on others.
Matt Schaub 2012 7,150,000 final year could do a extension and more cap freindly.

DeMeco Ryans 2012 5,900,000 renegotiate

Andre Johnson 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate

Owen Daniels 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate

Eric Winston 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate

Antonio Smith 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate

Jeff Garcia was 1,000,000 let go

Jake Delhome was 5,400,000 let go That seems way off

Matt Leinart 2012 3,000,000 cut

D.Ward 2011 875,000 let go bring in a undrafted FA


all salary info from
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/
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Someone check MY math as I think McClain made a small error in his. Using the numbers above, if Mario was given a $30m bonus with a 5 year contract the bonus avg is $6.5m added to the first year salary of $2.5m = cap hit of $8.5m not $7.5m. At least he has the formula correct & what I've been saying for two years in proposing trades.
 
Super Mario said:
Thanks for the extra info. I think I added 7 million with the assumption that the cap will rise from $120 million to $127 million.

This is from Wikipedia. Might not be 100% accurate.

2011 $120 million
2010 Uncapped
2009 $123 million
2008 $116 million
2007 $109 million
2006 $102 million
2005 $85.5 million

As you can see the sallary cap has risen at least $7 million each year, minus 2011 due to the new CBA being put in place.

The only other extra cost I can think of at this point is possible playoff escalators that players and coaches earned.
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Gotcha on the cap, I overlooked that part. However, here's a report saying the cap will still be 120 million in 2012:

According to Charley Casserly, on Sunday's CBS pre-game show, the NFL sent a Grinch like message to all NFL teams last week, that the 2012 salary cap will not increase, or at best only increase very, very slightly. He adds that around 1/4 of all NFL players will be UFA's (Un-Restricted Free Agents) in 2012. This will make for a buyers market for teams that have cap room, driving down players prices, because of less money to go around. Many players may be forced to settle for low price, 1 years contracts, and hope to try again in 2013, when the new TV money kicks in.
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http://www.catscratchreader.com/2011/12/19/2646007/salary-cap-will-not-increase-in-2012

So I wouldn't count on that 7 million.
 
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks
 
gafftop said:
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks
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If he hits the market without being tagged, I don't see how we keep him. In 2012, all teams that were under the cap (everyone) in 2011, will get to rollover any un-used capspace into 2012. Teams like the Chiefs, Bucs, Jags, etc will all have upwards of 40 million to spend. They could easily offer Mario a Peppers type deal where 35 million is paid in the first year. This money is also a "use it or lose it" type of thing. So if they don't spend the 2011 rollover in 2012, they won't continue to roll it up to 2013. I think this free agent market will be expensive, so if the Texans want to keep Mario they will have to tag him or re-sign him before March.
 
gafftop said:
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks
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I would prefer to look at an OLB deal over a Peppers DE deal.

DeMarcus Ware - 7 yr(s) / $79,000,000 ($40 million guaranteed)
Terrell Suggs - 6 yr(s) / $62,500,000 ($38.1 million guaranteed)

I could see Mario getting another 6 year contract at around $68 million. ($40 million guaranteed.)

2012 - Base: $7 million - bonus: 3 million
2013 - Base: $5 million - bonus: 3 million
2014 - Base: $8 million - bonus: 3 million
2015 - Base: $9 million - bonus: 3 million
2016 - Base: $10 million - bonus: 3 million
2017 - Base: $11 million - bonus: 3 million
2018 UFA


A slight decrease in 2013 to allow for upcoming FA's such as Barwin and Brown.
 
gafftop said:
To date I have not heard any of Mario's team mates express that Mario needs to be on the team next year.
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Then you didn't listen to for example Eric Winston yesterday.

Super Mario said:
Correct. Signing bonus can be given up front to. See Peppers Bears contract. Gave him his entire signing bonus up front. Cap hit for year 1 was $30 million.
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Signing bonus is generally given up front. It is due at signing and then gets pro-rated. What you are talking about is where a team gives a roster bonus up front such as with Antoine Winfield when the Vikes signed him. The check is effectively the same to the player but roster bonuses are not pro-rated.
 
gafftop said:
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks
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The total contract value is far less important that the guaranteed money. Peppers got $42 Million guaranteed on a 6 year contract (total value $84 Million). Unless Mario tells his agent he is willing to give the Texans a discount (which I would find mind boggling), I think he's going to be starting out at that number if not a little bit more. This is based on two things. First, it's been a couple of years since the Peppers deal, so that alone could make him think that he should get that amount - if not more. Secondly, Mario will be three years younger with two fewer years in the league than Peppers had when he signed with the Bears. He should have more tread left on the tires than Peppers did.

Now I don't think he'll get $42 Million guaranteed, but he might (if anything, somebody's probably willing to come pretty darn close) but I do think he's probably going to want to see that first hand by testing the market before agreeing to anything less.
 
Dutchrudder said:
If he hits the market without being tagged, I don't see how we keep him. In 2012, all teams that were under the cap (everyone) in 2011, will get to rollover any un-used capspace into 2012. Teams like the Chiefs, Bucs, Jags, etc will all have upwards of 40 million to spend. They could easily offer Mario a Peppers type deal where 35 million is paid in the first year. This money is also a "use it or lose it" type of thing. So if they don't spend the 2011 rollover in 2012, they won't continue to roll it up to 2013. I think this free agent market will be expensive, so if the Texans want to keep Mario they will have to tag him or re-sign him before March.
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First I've heard of unused 2011 cap rolling into 2012. Can you provide link or where you got this? Thanks.
 
badboy said:
99, it is not about getting value for Mario; rather about getting what you can if it is decided to trade him. I cannot imagine anyone even Mario's biggest fan thinking we could get a top 10 first round for him. Most fans either love him or hate him. Few seem to step back & just give a fair eval. It is up to Robert McNair only to decide if Mario remains a Texan. Regardless of any offer, Bob could turn it down
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The Rockets got Jordan Hill and a Top-5 protected 2012 first round pick from the Knicks for Tracy McGrady's corpse. I know that's not a football example, but maybe Rick could have some of the same luck trying to swing a trade for Mario.
 
gafftop said:
Just curious what kind of contract do you think it will take to keep Mario??

In my mind I am thinking 75-85 mill over 5 years. And this is the reason I don't think we can afford to keep him.

If the contract say is 40 mill over 5 years I can see why you want to keep him. It would make my decision more difficult on what I would do if this was the case.

The amount of his contract is key in all this discussion. Again just curious what contract amount you are thinking in regards to Mario going forward.

thanks
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To keep Mario is entirely on what the market will bear for him. Does Mario get more money than Peppers got going to the Bears, because hell, back then people thought Peppers was a quitter? Is the non-raised salary cap going to play hell with teams who want to sign him? Who are the teams who could afford a cap hit like that?

I think looking at the contract Peppers got is probably a good starting place and you can go either up or down from there. Also, will Mario play for a discount in Houston now that he has horses around him who can also produce sacks, pressure, and good defensive play?

Here's Peppers's contract:

Rotoworld said:
3/5/2010: Signed a six-year, $84 million contract. The deal contains $42 million guaranteed, including a $6.5 million signing bonus and a first-year roster bonus of $12.5 million. Another $7.5 million is available through incentives based on sacks, Pro Bowl berths, and Defensive Player of the Year awards. Peppers can earn annual $100,000 workout bonuses in years one through five. 2011: $900,000 (+ $10.5 million "signing" bonus), 2012: $8.9 million, 2013: $12.9 million, 2014: $13.9 million, 2015: $16.5 million, 2016: Free Agent
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EDIT:

There's no way we will be able to trade Mario. His contract will end when FA begins in March and I'm pretty sure there is no trading between teams till at least then. We're either signing him to a new deal, or he's going to take offers from other teams come the beginning of March.
 
badboy said:
First I've heard of unused 2011 cap rolling into 2012. Can you provide link or where you got this? Thanks.
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From page 96 of the CBA:


Carrying Over Room. A Club may "carry over" Room from one
League Year to the following League Year by submitting notice in writing signed by the
owner to the NFL no later than fourteen (1 4) days prior to the start of the next League
Year indicating the maximum amount of Room that the Club wishes to carry over. The
NFL shall prompdy provide a copy of any such notice to the NFLP A. The amount of
Room carried over will be adjusted downward based on the final Room available after
the year-end reconciliation
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http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf

In the previous CBA, teams could only carry over capspace that was to be paid to a player, but was in fact not earned. Teams used to do this at the end of the regular season by renegotiating a deal with a backup player where they would earn X dollars if they did some insurmountable feat like throw 10 TDs with only 1 game left on the schedule. Those X dollars would only transfer to the following year if they were unattained through contract, rather than being unallocated. Now both types will rollover to the next year if the club wishes.
 
Dutchrudder said:
From page 96 of the CBA:




http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf

In the previous CBA, teams could only carry over capspace that was to be paid to a player, but was in fact not earned. Teams used to do this at the end of the regular season by renegotiating a deal with a backup player where they would earn X dollars if they did some insurmountable feat like throw 10 TDs with only 1 game left on the schedule. Those X dollars would only transfer to the following year if they were unattained through contract, rather than being unallocated. Now both types will rollover to the next year if the club wishes.
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Interesting. The last sentence that you quoted could be made clearer. What are your thoughts on that sentence?
 
The amount of Room carried over will be adjusted downward based on the final Room available after the year-end reconciliation
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badboy said:
Interesting. The last sentence that you quoted could be made clearer. What are your thoughts on that sentence?
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I think that has to do with the final count of the salary cap. In the next section it talks about incentives and gives examples of how a team may go over the cap due to performance incentives being reached:

At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted
in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club
exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be
subtracted from the Club's Team Salary for the next League Year.
(iii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses previously included in a
Club's Team Salary but not actually earned exceed performance bonuses actually earned
but not previously included in Team Salary, an amount shall be added to the Club's
Team Salary for the next League Year equaling the amount, if any, by which such overage
exceeds the Team's Room under the Salary Cap at the end of a season.
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So if you are 2 million under the cap at year end, but have some guys meet performance incentives of 3 million during the playoffs or probowl, then you don't get to carry over 2 million. You instead get negative 1 million in the next year.

Although, it could be referring to something else entirely.
 
The Chronicle Weighs In

The top priority will be trying to sign outside linebacker Mario Williams to a new contract. Playing a new position in Wade Phillips’ defense, Williams had five sacks in five games before suffering a season-ending injury to his pectoral muscle.

“Anybody who knows anything about our team knows how significant Mario’s contribution has been,” Smith said. “We would love to have him back. It goes without saying he’s one of our best players.

“We’ve got some constraints with the salary cap, so we’ve got some challenges.”

Williams earned $18 million in the last year of his contract. If the Texans are unable to sign Williams to a long-term deal, they could franchise him, but that’s not likely because his franchise tag would be $22.9 million. Realistically, they can’t carry that figure on their cap.

“Obviously, Mario is a tremendous player,” Kubiak said. “I know Mario wants to be with this team. He’s always worked extremely hard and been a very positive influence on this team.
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Some of the bolded stuff seems like McClain voo-doo numbers.
 
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Dutchrudder said:
Rotoworld, general sports news, Jason La Canfora, etc.
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Does rotoworld report anything other than annual base salary and total contract bonus/guarantee?

In terms of general sports news, I haven't heard anything consistent. Just yesterday I heard Matt Thomas say Mario's Franchise amount would be $17 - $18 Million, and a couple hours later, I heard David Dalati say around $22 Million. Plus, even prior to the Casserly comment, I'd heard 22 million several times from other sources (and while I'm not going to do it, I'm pretty sure you can find it referenced more than once on this MB). Not sure general comments really mean squat.

As far as La Canfora, I haven't seen anything he's said that was specifically related to Mario's franchise tag amount, so if you've got a link to anything, I'd defnitely be interested.
 
Super Mario said:
Paul Kuharsky says...



http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/50566/mario-williams-and-the-franchise-tag
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Yeah, well that article was actually updated after the fact to correct Kuharski's failure to realize that he didn't take into account the provision putting a minimum of a 20% increase over the previous years salary, so in my mind that kind of eliminates him as much of a source to be relied upon.

Also, while the CBA clearly includes the amortized bonus amount and a few other things in the definition of salary, Kuharski's update only reflects what I've seen as base salary, and even Spotrac (which I'm not at all confident in) reflects some bonus amount included in Mario's 2011 cap value. I don't believe Kuharski got it right - even on his second chance.
 
ChampionTexan said:
Yeah, well that article was actually updated after the fact to correct Kuharski's failure to realize that he didn't take into account the provision putting a minimum of a 20% increase over the previous years salary, so in my mind that kind of eliminates him as much of a source to be relied upon.

Also, while the CBA clearly includes the amortized bonus amount and a few other things in the definition of salary, Kuharski's update only reflects what I've seen as base salary, and even Spotrac (which I'm not at all confident in) reflects some bonus amount included in Mario's 2011 cap value. I don't believe Kuharski got it right - even on his second chance.
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FWIW, Mario did not get upfront bonus so there is nothing to add to the base salary to get a cap number. He received guarantee money only.
 
badboy said:
FWIW, Mario did not get upfront bonus so there is nothing to add to the base salary to get a cap number. He received guarantee money only.
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I'm not going to simply accept this at face value - I don't know for a fact it's wrong, but I've reason to suspect it is. Even Spotrac (which seems to be the source most folks around here are going with) reflects a "Misc. Bonus" of approx. $1.3 Million in his '11 cap amount.

Going back a bit, one source a number of us on this board trusted more than any other for info. like this was "In the Bullseye". Keith and his staff seemed to be the best/most reliable source of Texans salary cap info out there, and while not all will be familiar with it, and while some won't agree, I know some of us trusted his info. more than other sources.

For whatever reason, they stopped updating this info. a while back, but what they had went through the 2010 season, and since Mario's contract hasn't been modified since he signed it, it stands to reason that if their info. was correct at the time, it's correct now. In terms of "Allocated Bonus Pay" factoring into Mario's cap amount, it reflected $2,406,720, $4,525,000, and $6,650,000 in 2008, 2009 and 2010 respectively. If we're looking at a bonus amount anywhere in this area, the $22 Million amount could make sense.

LINK

Addditionally, here's a chart from USA Today (again - not updated to be current) that reflects the fact that for Mario's first four years in the league, there was never less than a $2 Million difference between his "Base Salary", and his Cap Value.

LINK

Again, I can't swear what's right and what's not (and that's part of the point), but I know I've heard $22 Million enough times from enough sources that I find credible (if not linkable) that I'm not assuming any number less than that is automatically correct.
 
I agree with many of your views on Mario.
I agree if he is not signed before he hits the market he is gone.
I agree we do not have 17-20 mill to franchise him.
I still don't understand how you franchise and trade. ??? It would be a plus if that could be pulled off.

We were so close this year even with a rookie QB. I think with MS we are playing this week with an even chance to go to the SB. Just like last year before the season started I thought we needed a real 1b wr and a quality CB in addition to JJ. I think you go out and get two FAs (WR and CB) so you know what you have. It worked last year with JJ and DM. Don't hope you get these 2 players in the draft. Draft another WR because I think we need 2 real WRs besides AJ.

To do this requires money. I don't think we will have the money if Mario is here. So if we keep Mario we roll the dice on the draft AND Mario to stay healthy again.

I also have no desire to mess up the chemistry this team had at the end. I think the chemistry was there. You make all the changes necessary to keep Mario and there is a chance you lose that chemistry. I also think paying Foster now is important to the chemistry of this team.

Again we were so close with NO Mario. I don't feel Mario alone will put us over the hill. Sure you can say we will take care of those needs in the draft and maybe you will. Just think if you can handle those two needs in FA and then build with the draft. Draft BPA etc.
 
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Champion you've done some great digging there which is fantastic...but...

We shouldn't get too hung up on what Mario's cap figure is and what that means to his potential tag amount, and here's why...

Whether its $16 million or $22 million, its still a 20% increase on what they've paid him this year, therefore, the actual difference in what the Texans would have to find extra to sign him is minimal.

If he's earning $13.8m this year, they need to find and extra $2.7m if they want to tag him @ $16.5m

If its closer to $17.6m this year, they need to find an extra $4.4m if the want to tag him @ $22m

So really, in terms of what they need to actually find more than what they're spending right now, the difference is only $1.7m between the two scenarios.
 
welsh texan said:
Champion you've done some great digging there which is fantastic...but...

We shouldn't get too hung up on what Mario's cap figure is and what that means to his potential tag amount, and here's why...

Whether its $16 million or $22 million, its still a 20% increase on what they've paid him this year, therefore, the actual difference in what the Texans would have to find extra to sign him is minimal.

If he's earning $13.8m this year, they need to find and extra $2.7m if they want to tag him @ $16.5m

If its closer to $17.6m this year, they need to find an extra $4.4m if the want to tag him @ $22m

So really, in terms of what they need to actually find more than what they're spending right now, the difference is only $1.7m between the two scenarios.
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Then we are likely to lose Chris Myers, not get a good #2 WR in free agency, and will break our promise to give Foster a new deal this off-season.

We were right up against the cap this year and aren't getting much cap relief. We will either sign Mario to a long term deal or we will let him walk. I'm pretty confident of that.
 
ChampionTexan said:
Yeah, well that article was actually updated after the fact to correct Kuharski's failure to realize that he didn't take into account the provision putting a minimum of a 20% increase over the previous years salary, so in my mind that kind of eliminates him as much of a source to be relied upon.

Also, while the CBA clearly includes the amortized bonus amount and a few other things in the definition of salary, Kuharski's update only reflects what I've seen as base salary, and even Spotrac (which I'm not at all confident in) reflects some bonus amount included in Mario's 2011 cap value. I don't believe Kuharski got it right - even on his second chance.
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Can you post the corrected article?
 
gafftop said:
I agree with many of your views on Mario.
I agree if he is not signed before he hits the market he is gone.
I agree we do not have 17-20 mill to franchise him.
I still don't understand how you franchise and trade. ??? It would be a plus if that could be pulled off.

We were so close this year even with a rookie QB. I think with MS we are playing this week with an even chance to go to the SB. Just like last year before the season started I thought we needed a real 1b wr and a quality CB in addition to JJ. I think you go out and get two FAs (WR and CB) so you know what you have. It worked last year with JJ and DM. Don't hope you get these 2 players in the draft. Draft another WR because I think we need 2 real WRs besides AJ.

To do this requires money. I don't think we will have the money if Mario is here. So if we keep Mario we roll the dice on the draft AND Mario to stay healthy again.

I also have no desire to mess up the chemistry this team had at the end. I think the chemistry was there. You make all the changes necessary to keep Mario and there is a chance you lose that chemistry. I also think paying Foster now is important to the chemistry of this team.

Again we were so close with NO Mario. I don't feel Mario alone will put us over the hill. Sure you can say we will take of those needs in the draft and maybe you will. Just think if you can handle those two needs in FA and then build with the draft. Draft BPA etc.
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I was going to type in my two cents about Mario, but you summed them up perfectly.

Realistically, I think when its all said and done he walks. I just don't see how we could swing a tag and trade deal.

Good news is Indy is near maxed out on cap and facing decisions about Manning and a few other key vets.Jax and Tenn typically don't make big FA splashes. So I think we're safe for in division.
 
cbs1507 said:
Can you post the corrected article?
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It's actually the article he linked that is corrected internally. At the beginning of the 7th paragraph, you'll find the following statement:

[UPDATE, 4:57 p.m.: I now interrupt this post to correct myself and make the rest of it an example of what could happen in another situation like Williams' instead of his situation itself.
Click to expand...

Kuharsky then goes on to state that as a result of one of the comments posted to his original article, he essentially realized that he did not take the 20% provision into account when writing the original article.
 
welsh texan said:
Champion you've done some great digging there which is fantastic...but...

We shouldn't get too hung up on what Mario's cap figure is and what that means to his potential tag amount, and here's why...

Whether its $16 million or $22 million, its still a 20% increase on what they've paid him this year, therefore, the actual difference in what the Texans would have to find extra to sign him is minimal.

If he's earning $13.8m this year, they need to find and extra $2.7m if they want to tag him @ $16.5m

If its closer to $17.6m this year, they need to find an extra $4.4m if the want to tag him @ $22m

So really, in terms of what they need to actually find more than what they're spending right now, the difference is only $1.7m between the two scenarios.
Click to expand...

Strangely, my curiosity has less to do with Mario coming back or not coming back, but the interest in how much cap room his expring contract frees up. That number has been placed at anywhere from 13.8 Million to $18.3 Million (the number which 22 Million is derived from). That's a $4.5 Million difference (or 1.5 Jacoby Jones's), and I'm curious as to what number is real.
 
ChampionTexan said:
It's actually the article he linked that is corrected internally. At the beginning of the 7th paragraph, you'll find the following statement:



Kuharsky then goes on to state that as a result of one of the comments posted to his original article, he essentially realized that he did not take the 20% provision into account when writing the original article.
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Ok, then where are you getting the $16-22 million from? The article says 8-11 million would be the franchise number.
 
cbs1507 said:
Ok, then where are you getting the $16-22 million from? The article says 8-11 million would be the franchise number.
Click to expand...

These are the two sentences immediately following the one which I quoted in my previous post.
As gbrussell points out below, a secondary provision of the franchise tag is that if it's not more than 120 percent of a player's previous salary, he gets that number instead. Williams has a $13.8 million salary in 2011. So his franchise 2012 tag number would be $16.56 million.
Click to expand...

The last sentence where I'm getting the $16 Million from . The $22 Million is a number that's been floating around, and was specifically mentioned by Charlie Casserly on CBS over the weekend.
 
ChampionTexan said:
These are the two sentences immediately following the one which I quoted in my previous post.


The last sentence where I'm getting the $16 Million from . The $22 Million is a number that's been floating around, and was specifically mentioned by Charlie Casserly on CBS over the weekend.
Click to expand...

Ok I got you. They should do a better job editing their articles.

Here is the new CBA if anybody doesn't mind reading a lengthy contract.

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Franchise tags are in section 10.
 
I keep reading these worst case scenario's on Mario, having to franchise him because apparently he's going to ask for crazy money and oh my what are the Texans going to do. I guess I'm on the other side of the coin because I think Mario WANTS to be here.

When has this guy ever been a problem child?? I can't remember a game this year while he was on IR that he wasn't on the sideline cheering on his teammates. The guy has been on the team for the entire Kubiak era and do you really think he wants to leave the team NOW??? You never heard him going off on the team or a teammate during the down years plus how many other pro bowl players in a contract year would have readily accepted a change in position that he did this year. Is he going to get pretty big money most likely but I just don't see him leaving especially coming off the injury.

Here are the current ages of the Texans Defensive players.
Linebackers
Barwin 25
Braman 25
Cushing 24
Reed 24
Ryans 27
Sharpton 23
Williams 26

Linemen
Bulman 29
Cody 28
Jamison 25
Mitchell 24
Smith 30
Watt 22
Nading 26

Secondary
Jason Allen 28
Carmichael 23
Demps 26
Harris 21
K.Jackson 23
Joseph 27
Keo 24
Manning 29
McManis 24
Nolan 25
Quin 25

Whether they keep him at OLB or move him back to DE, the guy is too young to give up on. He fits right in with the youth movement they've worked the past 6 years to build and I just don't see them abandoning their plan now. If he was in his 30's I'd say he's gone but at 26 and only to be 27 next year NO WAY they give him up and again I'll emphasize there is no history of him ever being a problem. They talked Andre Johnson into accepting a better number last year, I'm betting he'll do the same to remain on the team.
 
I think everybody would like to keep Mario Williams, however he is an extremely expensive commodity. The question is can you keep him and resign players who play an important role and whose contracts end in 2012 and 2013 (Matt Schuab, Arian Foster, Chris Myers, Duane Brown, Connor Barwin, Brice McCain, Shaun Cody, Glover Quinn, and Joel Dreessen). More importantly you have to look at these players contracts and see who will get a huge pay raise, a substantial pay raise, and who will not be brought back or cut. Arian Foster and Duane Brown are going to get huge pay raises. Connor Barwin, Chris Myers,Brice McCain, and Glover Quinn will get substantial pay raises. The good news is that we will probably save a lot of cap space. Jason Allen will not be brought back at 6 years 24 million and Neil Rackers will not be brought back at 2 years 4.1 million. Also I think that the front office will attempt to restructure Andre Johnson's and Demeco Ryan's contracts (those are some huge numbers). Lastly I think that something has to be done with Kevin Walters but I'm not sure what (5 years 21.5 million...wow) and Jacoby Jones will be cut. Info coming from spotrac.com. Lot of variables the front office is taking dealing with. Hope they are good at freeing up cap room.
 
From Pasquarelli in 2006

League salary documents obtained by ESPN.com confirm the six-year contract signed last month by former North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams, the first selection in this year's draft by the Houston Texans, features a basic value of $54 million and a maximum worth, counting all possible bonuses, incentives and escalators, of $62.1 million.

The guaranteed money in the contract is initially $21.75 million, and then jumps to $26.5 million after the Texans exercise an option next spring.

And the signing bonus is zero.

That's right, folks, no signing bonus.

It is believed to be the first time in modern history that the top overall selection in a draft agreed to a deal with no signing bonus included. But that's hardly reason to pass around the collection basket for Williams. In fact, first-round contracts with no signing bonus money were frequently employed in 2005 as a means of countering collective bargaining agreement restrictions while still achieving the maximum value in most deals, and the trend almost certainly will continue this year.


The mechanism was certainly effective in 2005, when first-round choices garnered increases in guaranteed money of 10-20 percent over their 2004 counterparts. That despite the fact that exactly half of the 32 first-round picks signed contracts that paid them no signing bonus money. In virtually every case last year, players who signed contracts that included no signing bonus were able to improve their deals' total guarantees.

Only two first-rounders -- Cleveland wide receiver Braylon Edwards and Chicago tailback Cedric Benson -- received signing bonuses of more than $3 million in 2005. Top overall choice Alex Smith, the former Utah quarterback chosen by the San Francisco 49ers, banked a signing bonus of just $1 million. Four of the top 10 picks last season -- Miami tailback Ronnie Brown (No. 2), Minnesota wide receiver Troy Williamson (No. 7), Arizona cornerback Antrel Rolle (No. 8) and Washington cornerback Carlos Rogers (No. 9) -- received no signing bonuses.

It didn't keep them from landing very good contracts, however, and it likely won't affect players chosen in the first round of this year's draft, either. The number that counts the most is guaranteed money, and in the case of zero-signing bonus contracts, the total hasn't been diminished by a lack of up front money.

In the case of Williams, he received a $2.625 million roster bonus on what essentially is a five-year deal with an option for a sixth season. Under the terms of the contract, the base salaries for the first five years -- $275,000 (2006), $3.625 million (2007), $4.35 million (2008), $5.075 million (2009) and $5.8 million (2010) -- are fully guaranteed. That totals $21.75 million in guarantees.

But the guarantees escalate to $26.5 million next spring, when the Texans pay Williams $12 million to exercise their option for a sixth season on the contract. By exercising the option, the Texans reduce the salaries in Years 2-5 of the contract -- to $975,000 (2007), $1.575 million (2008), $2.3 million (2009) and $3.025 million (2010) -- and add the 2011 season at a base salary of $3.725 million. All the base salaries are guaranteed, bringing the total guaranteed money to $26.5 million.

Williams can void the final two years of the deal based on playing time levels and if he and the team reach certain predetermined performance levels, but the Texans then have a right to buy back the voided 2010 and 2011 seasons at a cost of $8.5 million. There are plenty of incentives, like $125,000 in most years for leading the league in sacks, bonuses for honors and playoff victories, and escalators that can raise the base salaries in 2010 and 2011 by $6 million and $9.5 million, respectively.

But mostly there is a lot of money, even if none of it is delivered in the form of a traditional signing bonus, and the Williams contract is certain to be a template of sorts for many more first-round deals.
Click to expand...
 
Remember when people on T.V. would say that players would take a pay cut to play for Belichick and the Patriots?

I wish we could get to that status. Because eventually we are going to have to pay for our cheap studs (Barwin, Quin, whoever is underpaid on the O-line, etc.).
 
welsh texan said:
Champion you've done some great digging there which is fantastic...but...

We shouldn't get too hung up on what Mario's cap figure is and what that means to his potential tag amount, and here's why...

Whether its $16 million or $22 million, its still a 20% increase on what they've paid him this year, therefore, the actual difference in what the Texans would have to find extra to sign him is minimal.

If he's earning $13.8m this year, they need to find and extra $2.7m if they want to tag him @ $16.5m

If its closer to $17.6m this year, they need to find an extra $4.4m if the want to tag him @ $22m

So really, in terms of what they need to actually find more than what they're spending right now, the difference is only $1.7m between the two scenarios.
Click to expand...

What if we don't sign him or even better we are able to trade him for a couple of 2nd round picks ( still have no clue how this happens but maybe there is a way) We free up his cap space from last year say $15 million and we are able to pick up in free agency a WR1b, another quality CB, pay Foster, and maybe get a couple of extra draft choices, and make it easier to deal with our FA in 2013. Basically we are able to strengthen the areas we were weak in this last season and keep intact the team we had at the end of the season. With the return of our injured players I really like our chances for next year. If we sign Mario it gets very complicated. Keep it simple.

Just my opinion.
 
is this how a possible tag and trade with Mario works?
1. We place or verbally say we are franchising.
2. i guess Mario/agent does not like this because they would prefer long term contract.
3. We find a team that wants to sign Mario to a long term contract.
4. A trade is made without the franchise tag officially going into place and we get whatever without the franchise tag going into effect.

Is this what everyone is talking about when they say tag and trade? Is this sequence of events even a possibilty from a CBA perspective?
 
I really wish NFL teams didnt make it impossible to follow along with their cap situation. They purposely withhold information about contracts to make it impossible to know what we have to spend. This is as much a tactic used against players as it is the fans.

I don't have all the facts, none of us do. But from the information I have gathered I believe we have room to sign Mario without compromising our team. The only question to me is do you save some cap this year for our crop of FA's next year.
 
If I'm GM and resigning Mario....it's because he's told me himself he's ready and willing to play 3/4 DE. He and Watt will be a monster combo and Barwin and Reed still get their time and probably rack up twice as many sacks. Oh and cut/trade Antonio Smith to make room for Mario's contract and playing time.

If not that situation and no tag/trade scenarios work out....let him walk. We'll take the savings and sign Reggie Wayne.
 
TimeKiller said:
If I'm GM and resigning Mario....it's because he's told me himself he's ready and willing to play 3/4 DE. He and Watt will be a monster combo and Barwin and Reed still get their time and probably rack up twice as many sacks. Oh and cut/trade Antonio Smith to make room for Mario's contract and playing time.

If not that situation and no tag/trade scenarios work out....let him walk. We'll take the savings and sign Reggie Wayne.
Click to expand...

Nah, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't want to cut/trade a player that has proven he plays the 3-4 DE amongst the best in the league and replace him with a less durable and unproven at the position.

Unlike a few of these other cats around here, I actually like Mario and would like to see him remain a Texan. That said, I'm having a tough time trying to figure a way he can stay with us. Unless he has a realistic number in mind that would be good for both sides. Unfortunately, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think he'll be with us next season.

I surely wouldn't want to be the Texans FO this off-season. They've got a lot of work to do and decisions to make
 
Super Mario said:
I really wish NFL teams didnt make it impossible to follow along with their cap situation. They purposely withhold information about contracts to make it impossible to know what we have to spend. This is as much a tactic used against players as it is the fans.

I don't have all the facts, none of us do. But from the information I have gathered I believe we have room to sign Mario without compromising our team. The only question to me is do you save some cap this year for our crop of FA's next year.
Click to expand...

Actually there is a somewhat valid reason for it. The GM is not supposed to notify the coaches about performance incentive details so that there is no collusion between the HC and GM to play or not play a player for bonus reasons. If they made the contracts public then these details would get out and they couldn't keep up the semblance of ignorance towards the deal.

Example Vernon Gholston. He had a clause in his rookie deal to where he would get an 8 million dollar bonus if he got 1 sack or forced fumble. Just 1. Well he never got it and the team didn't pay him the 8 million. Could that due to the coach not putting him out there? Possibly, but they don't want the union to come after them for not putting a guy out there when he's a few snaps shy of an incentive.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Nah, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't want to cut/trade a player that has proven he plays the 3-4 DE amongst the best in the league and replace him with a less durable and unproven at the position.
Click to expand...
Personally I think that's where Mario should've been this season anyway. He and Watt would absolutely destroy the interior but durability with him is a concern. Cutting Smith is only to counter balance signing Mario which I don't think will happen so it's kind of a moot point anyway. Antonio Smith does a lot of things well but I don't think he's a top 5 DE, especially since so many teams employ the 34 defense.

Plus if Mario is coming back, in my mind, it HAS to be as a DE. No way you would take Barwin or Reed off for Mario. Those guys pressure the edge way more than Mario ever did. So where would Smith play? Nose?
Unlike a few of these other cats around here, I actually like Mario and would like to see him remain a Texan. That said, I'm having a tough time trying to figure a way he can stay with us. Unless he has a realistic number in mind that would be good for both sides. Unfortunately, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think he'll be with us next season.

I surely wouldn't want to be the Texans FO this off-season. They've got a lot of work to do and decisions to make
Click to expand...
I like Mario too but I never believed he was a game-changing elite end. I certainly don't think he could the best player on an elite D like the Texans are building. Just my opinion but I think his football skills don't equal his athleticism. I'm not trying to call him a workout warrior or a Vernon Gholston type, I just see more athleticism than anything else.
 
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