Probably a compensatory 3rd rd pick. Depending on Who/ how many FA's the Texans sign this offseason
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Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million
- Thread starter gafftop
- Start date
Probably a compensatory 3rd rd pick. Depending on Who/ how many FA's the Texans sign this offseason
DonnyMost
lol football :D
Do you have any link for this? I heard you can't "tag with intent to trade". But nothing about a deadline.
The only thing I found in regards to July 15th was this...
Any Club designating a Franchise Player shall have until 4:00 p.m., New
York time, on July 1 5 of the League Year (or, if July 1 5 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, the
first Monday thereafter) for which the designation takes effect to sign the player to a
multiyear contract or extension. After that date, the player may sign only a one-year
Player Contract with his Prior Club for that season, and such Player Contract may not be
extended until a fter the Club' s las t regular season game of that League Year.
So it seems like you can sign a guy to a long term deal and trade him any time after that. But if you wait until after July 15th to either trade him without having already signed him to a long term deal, then you're screwed when it comes to his tradeability.
GP
Go Texans!
I will believe CND before I believe Matt Schaub, even though it's Schaub's foot. CND said it's almost impossible for him to be plausibly ready by then.
I will never underestimate that guy's heart. He's tough as nails. But I think there's some motivational thinking going on. My daughter just got some weird "thing" put in her mouth at the orthodontist this morning, she hates it (she's only 7 and she's subconscious about its look and feel).
I asked the doc how long she had to have it in there, and he said hopefully 8 weeks and it gets taken out at that 8-week appointment. He said it SHOULD be by then, but could take another 8 weeks...he won't know until the first 8-week appointment. But the look in his eyes, when he told me that second part, was telling me with non-verbal communication that I better prepare MYSELF for 16 weeks but that I needed to coach my daughter that it will only be 8 weeks instead. Because she needs that bit of good news to get her through the initial 8 weeks. But hey, it "could" be ready the first time around, who knows though.
Schaub can say all he wants, he's going to naturally think he can somehow push the recovery and rehab time up to his own timetable. Human nature.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I'm reading the current CBA and there is a section on page 46 about this:
http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable.pdf
Essentially, it's wrong to say that he can't be traded (sorry bout that), but rather you can't do a 'sign-and-trade' NBA style after July 15. So you can trade him, but he's guaranteed to work for that one-year deal and you can't change that. Given Mario's huge contract, I would imagine he would be a pariah of the NFL contract-wise with a 16.6 million dollar tag.
DonnyMost
lol football :D
Yeah, it seems like the July date was put in there to make Franchised players toxic trade assets. Kind of a "******* or get off the pot" clause, if you will.
Well, that certainly complicates things.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I see you found that section as well
I like the idea of making them toxic, but I think July 15th is too late. That's well after FA and the Draft, which is when the big names get paid. I really wish they would make it so that a tagged player cannot be traded at all for that season. The name "Franchise Tag" implies that the player is important to your franchise, and using them as a bargain chip seems to be inconsistent with calling them a "franchise player". If they are so important, I would think the team should be doing work to keep them, not ship them off.
badboy
Hall of Fame
But if the new team can work a long term deal the franchised amount can be negotiated away. EX: Pats get Mario and franchise amount is $17m. NE and agent agree to a long term deal with bonus money, the first contract year is negotiated, not $17m
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Personally NE is the exact team that I would target to try and trade Mario. They run a lot of 4-3 schemes and Mario is a huge need for that team. They've been desperate for a strong edge rusher since they traded away Seymour. Mario would probably feel really motivated again being on a new team that usually gets a lot out of their players so I think a team like NE would really excite Mario as far as potential teams to go to. NE also has a lot of draft picks to offer the Texans, so both teams are practically perfect to benefit one another mutually to help each other improve right now.
GP
Go Texans!
Other than whether Schaub will return to form or not, we don't have any problems looming for 2012.
THE MARIO ISSUE....WHICH IS A NON-ISSUE, IMO:
Whether Mario gets re-signed or not is, IMO, not a big problem either. This team will thrive with him or without him, it's been proven so already. His strength is stopping the run game, his pass rush skills are a notch below elite. If he doesn't return, some Brooks Reed version 2.0 will emerge in his place...such as Bryan Braman or a new guy Wade drafts or picks up as UDFA or free agent.
O-Line:
Draft a Kubiak-type guy or two in 2012 and it'll add strength to this line. We're good to go.
QBs:
Schaub will make a return at some point, we'll see how well he comes back from the setback. In the meantime, Yates will have had a full camp and undoubtedly grow into making better decisions because of it.
RBs:
Not a problem.
WRs:
Lestar Jean will be a second-year guy for us, and will get a chance in camp and preseason to run the field and show his stuff. Remember the awesome grabs he made in preseason before he got hurt and I.R.'d? Yeah, I think he's the 2012 sleeper player for the Texans. Will likely draft or acquire a free agent WR too.
TEs:
Year after year, we just re-load at this position. Not worried.
Defense:
It's stacked. It will get even MORE stacked in the off-season of 2012.
AFC South competition:
Titans...what will they do to get better? Do they have a QB or will they need to try and find a better one in 2012 somehow? I think we're still better than them.
Jags...Not even worth the time to talk about them. We're better than them.
Colts...This is the mystery meat of AFC South teams, IMO. Never, ever, EVER underestimate these guys. Will #18 try a return to the helm? Maybe. Will Luck get the nod and be their guy? Maybe. Will they blow everyone's mind and switch to RG3? Maybe. They have the WRs they want. They need a RB. They need secondary help. These guys are a few smart moves away from being good again.
Overall:
This is the first year we head into the off-season and can relax about what will happen in the off-season, and in the draft, and in camp, and so on and so forth. Never before have we been afforded the luxury of just watching what happens and trusting that whatever takes place will be gravy on top.
We're the top team in the South, boys and girls. I'm not bragging, I'm not under-selling our foes. It is what it is. TODAY, and tomorrow, and in April, and in the summer, and on opening day, we can sit here and know that our team is the best team in the South. What a great feeling.
THE MARIO ISSUE....WHICH IS A NON-ISSUE, IMO:
Whether Mario gets re-signed or not is, IMO, not a big problem either. This team will thrive with him or without him, it's been proven so already. His strength is stopping the run game, his pass rush skills are a notch below elite. If he doesn't return, some Brooks Reed version 2.0 will emerge in his place...such as Bryan Braman or a new guy Wade drafts or picks up as UDFA or free agent.
O-Line:
Draft a Kubiak-type guy or two in 2012 and it'll add strength to this line. We're good to go.
QBs:
Schaub will make a return at some point, we'll see how well he comes back from the setback. In the meantime, Yates will have had a full camp and undoubtedly grow into making better decisions because of it.
RBs:
Not a problem.
WRs:
Lestar Jean will be a second-year guy for us, and will get a chance in camp and preseason to run the field and show his stuff. Remember the awesome grabs he made in preseason before he got hurt and I.R.'d? Yeah, I think he's the 2012 sleeper player for the Texans. Will likely draft or acquire a free agent WR too.
TEs:
Year after year, we just re-load at this position. Not worried.
Defense:
It's stacked. It will get even MORE stacked in the off-season of 2012.
AFC South competition:
Titans...what will they do to get better? Do they have a QB or will they need to try and find a better one in 2012 somehow? I think we're still better than them.
Jags...Not even worth the time to talk about them. We're better than them.
Colts...This is the mystery meat of AFC South teams, IMO. Never, ever, EVER underestimate these guys. Will #18 try a return to the helm? Maybe. Will Luck get the nod and be their guy? Maybe. Will they blow everyone's mind and switch to RG3? Maybe. They have the WRs they want. They need a RB. They need secondary help. These guys are a few smart moves away from being good again.
Overall:
This is the first year we head into the off-season and can relax about what will happen in the off-season, and in the draft, and in camp, and so on and so forth. Never before have we been afforded the luxury of just watching what happens and trusting that whatever takes place will be gravy on top.
We're the top team in the South, boys and girls. I'm not bragging, I'm not under-selling our foes. It is what it is. TODAY, and tomorrow, and in April, and in the summer, and on opening day, we can sit here and know that our team is the best team in the South. What a great feeling.
GP
Go Texans!
I'm not sure if I am stating it the right way, but I was under the impression that the reason Mario is better in a 3-4 rather than a 4-3 is because of this:
In a 43, the o-line is lined up against 4 down-linemen. This makes it easier for an o-line blocker to put their hands on Mario at the snap.
In a 34, the five o-linemen have a variety of formations to look at and dissect across the LOS from them. With Mario further back off the line, in the 34 defense, he presents a challenge because of the ways o-linemen will have to deal with the primary defenders at the snap.
To me, Mario could grow into a 34 and be better than he was as a DE in a 43 scheme. Then again, with the new coaching staff Wade brought in, you could see their hand-fighting teachings taking shape in everyone's play on the field in real games...Mario, more than anyone, was swatting blockers' hands away and beating them regularly to get to the ball carrier.
All in all, I think Bob will re-sign the guy. I don't how we make the dollars work, but I think he will try his best to re-sign him. If it doesn't cripple the team, then I don't care. I just don't want a goofy contract that handcuffs us in terms of flexibility to sign other guys.
badboy
Hall of Fame
You may remember my thread before season about trading Mario to Pats. I mentioned discussing with Charley Pallilo who thought they would not give up a 1st & 2nd but maybe two second rounds. I will be ok with Williams re-signing with a good contract but keep thinking what we could do with two high drafts picks in a deep draft. As NE keeps dropping as they go deeper in POs I would insist on a first and a high second.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well you could definitely be correct that Mario is better in a 3-4 defense, but we don't know that for sure because he got hurt to early. I agree with you that he certainly looked very good in the new scheme that Wade brought in and I liked the small sample I saw.
What I think that proved though is that Mario is probably a guy that can be versatile and play pretty well in both schemes which is a plus for his marketability around the league. He played in the 4-3 over here for most of his career, so there is no question whether or not if he can play in the 4-3. NE also changes their scheme up from time to time throughout each game and run 3-4 sets as well. Mario would be rejuvinated on a team like that in my opinion and would probably be happy about a trade like that. There are several teams that Mario could probably help, but not all of them will have the right assets to deal out. NE does, and they really "need" a huge veteran pass rusher like Mario to help out their D line who has been average for years now.
And NE is getting a first round type of talent at a position that they desperately need an upgrade at. THis is a sweet deal for both teams.
Gary sounded like the Texans wanted him & that He wanted to be here on his last show.
It's up to Rick Smith not to insult him.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I think McNair plays a pivotal role in Mario's contract.Gary sounded like the Texans wanted him & that He wanted to be here on his last show.
It's up to Rick Smith not to insult him.
I would be amazed if we got something for Mario. Don't the other teams see the same thing we experience with Mario? He does have injury problems. I agree he plays when injured but no where near 100%. I just can't see anyone trading picks to sign Mario to a big contract. I hope that I am wrong.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
I think McNair gives him some "under the table money" to take a contract that best fits our cap situation
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I wouldnt say you're a foolish person, just foolish to think will smith is as good as mario. No matter what you feel about mario, he is top 8 in terms of de/pass rushers in this league. Not only that, he plays the run well and if you look at his sack per pass attempts, you will see he's even better. He plays a premium position and is multiple in terms of the position you want him to play. He is the only player for the most mart you don't have to scheme to get a good pass rush out of.
The bottomline is you don't and cant let that guy walk at the age of 27. The texans don't have enough cap room to franchise him and keep him if that happens. The smart organizations will look at the top 10 highest paid and come up with a good contract for both sides. Again, you don't give up that kind of player at this stage in his career.
badboy
Hall of Fame
If he did NFL would fine him heavily probably including loss of draft picks.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
We have several good pass rushers that are younger and just as effective now. We could use the value that we could get for Mario or the money that we'd be paying him on another position of need to get a really good player. Mario is expendable now.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
Only if he gets caught!!!
badboy
Hall of Fame
That is what a certain NE Pats coach said not too long ago about camera work if you recall.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Keep believing that if you want. Reed is a guy who will get a sack by atricsion, not by whooping another player. If they have so many good pass rushers, how come it took smith getting sacks in the last week to pass him as the 2nd leading pass rusher? Marion had been out for what 11 weeks. Thinking like this is one of the reason teams have short term success. They won games without andre, but that doesn't mean they are a better team. No one in the nfl gets rid of a premier de/olb pass rusher type at the age of 27. Not one team in the league does that and for good reason.
There is a reason those guys have the 2nd highest salary behind qb. If you think braman,reed and guys like that are close enough to replace him, go right ahead and test it out, but I don't think thats anywhere close to the truth. You want to have answers for teams in every way possible. When mario went down, smith struggled, but barwin came on. When teams started turning to barwin, watt picked it up even more. If you put mario back out there, now all those guys get one on one and the offense is in an even worse situation. Think about some of the best offense the texans will play going forward next year. This year, they played 1 high end offense and that was the saints and they gave up 40. Next year, they play lions,packers, and patriots. We don't know if payton is coming back or not, but if they lost to indy with a scrub qb, i'd imagine manning will get the offense clicking again. Mario is part of the answer, not the problem.
I hope the Colts do draft Luck.
Mario & them boys on Kirby are going to David Carr his ass for the next 4 seasons.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Will Smith had 13 sacks in 2010. He has similar tools and is similarly inconsistent.
By the way, he is in the middle of a 6 year $70million contract. If teams are willing to pay a "hell of allot more for Mario Williams than Will Smith", then there is no way he will be a Texan next year.
Gary sounded like the Texans wanted him & that He wanted to be here on his last show.
It's up to Rick Smith not to insult him.
Well there you go.
The rest of us are just wasting our time dreaming about a day Mario Williams will not be a Texans.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Based on Kubiaks' presser yesterday, I think it is almost assured that Mario will not be back. I can't post the video, but here's the quote:
(on the priorities will be in terms of personnel and the organizations thoughts on Mario Williams) I cant even begin to go there as far as talking about our team and how get better and this and that. Like I said, Im strictly in an evaluation process right now for me and the coaches looking at players trying to put a pecking order basically in how we think our football team finished the season. Thats our biggest priority right now. As far as Mario, obviously Mario is a tremendous player. Hes done a great job here. Those things will work themselves out. I know Mario wants to be with this organization and this football team. Thats part of the process. Well get going with the process, but Mario has always worked extremely hard and been a very positive influence with this organization and this team.
That sounds like a polite kiss-off to me.
Sounds more like he's going to let Rick Smith & Mario's agent work out the details.
srrono
All Pro
http://www.examiner.com/houston-tex...texans-afford-mario-williams-and-arian-foster
The multi-million dollar question for the Texans heading into free agency is what to do with Mario Williams who will become an unrestricted free agent in early March if the Texans don't lock him up before then.
Williams would be a hot commodity on the free agent market, presumably to a 4-3 team looking for a big-time defensive end.
The Texans have three options with Williams: a) sign him to a long term deal, b) franchise him, or c) let him go unrestricted.
There could also be a sub-option to (b) that would be to apply a franchise tag on Williams to buy time with the intent to trade Williams to a team that will sign him to a long term deal.
Let's explore the options just a bit.
Before we simply say 'sign him to a long term deal' you must look at the Texans salary cap situation for 2012. Details are still emerging but the cap will be somewhere around $125 million next season.
According to spotrac.com, the Texans have six players that will account for $44.8 million of that cap space and that doesn't include Arian Foster who will likely get a nice long term deal of his own in the next few months.
Advertisement
Let's say for discussion purposes that Foster's cap hit in 2012 is $6 million. That means the Texans would have around $51 million in cap (more than 40%) wrapped up in seven players (and that wouldn't include Williams).
Add a fat Williams contract to the bunch and you could easily have the Texans using roughly half of their cap space on eight players - and the other half would be spread across the other 45 players plus contingency space for injured reserve.
See where I'm going with this?
As an aside, the cap values on the spotrac site may or may not be totally accurate because Andre Johnson, Antonio Smith and DeMeco Ryans re-structured their deals to help the Texans get under the cap last year and those amounts appear to be the pre-restructure amounts. So those cap figures may vary a bit, but they're probably close enough for this discussion.
As another aside, Williams' rookie deal with the Texans was 6 years - $54 million, with $26.5 million guaranteed.
How about that franchise tag for Mario? That would be even worse cap-wise than a long term deal since his tag (and cap hit) would be $16.56 million in 2012 until a long term deal or a trade could be worked out.
And then there's always the option to let him walk.
This wouldn't make sense to many fans but this is a business decision and you have to ask yourself the question: Is Mario Williams absolutely essential to the success of the Texans defense going forward?
I'm talking essential to the point where you're going to make him the highest paid player on the defense, a decision that will have a significant financial ripple effect throughout the rest of the roster?
Also, Mario has had his troubles with injuries over the past two seasons, landing on IR in both the 2010 and 2011 seasons with a sports hernia and a torn pectoral muscle.
What if you took Mario's money and spent it on a free agent WR2 and CB2 much like the Texans did last year when the passed on Nnamdi and signed Johnathan Joseph and Danieal Manning for the same amount?
I floated this idea on Twitter a few days ago and most of my followers liked the idea of taking care of Arian and then using the money it would take to sign Mario and spend it on other needs, and then drafting another outside linebacker to back up Barwin and Reed.
Plus, this isn't just a decision for 2012. The Texans have a much more challenging situation ahead of them in free agency in 2013 so these decisions can't be based on one-year situational snapshots. There needs to be at least a two year cap health plan in place to avoid the situation known as cap hell.
What do you think, Mario or no Mario?
The multi-million dollar question for the Texans heading into free agency is what to do with Mario Williams who will become an unrestricted free agent in early March if the Texans don't lock him up before then.
Williams would be a hot commodity on the free agent market, presumably to a 4-3 team looking for a big-time defensive end.
The Texans have three options with Williams: a) sign him to a long term deal, b) franchise him, or c) let him go unrestricted.
There could also be a sub-option to (b) that would be to apply a franchise tag on Williams to buy time with the intent to trade Williams to a team that will sign him to a long term deal.
Let's explore the options just a bit.
Before we simply say 'sign him to a long term deal' you must look at the Texans salary cap situation for 2012. Details are still emerging but the cap will be somewhere around $125 million next season.
According to spotrac.com, the Texans have six players that will account for $44.8 million of that cap space and that doesn't include Arian Foster who will likely get a nice long term deal of his own in the next few months.
Advertisement
Let's say for discussion purposes that Foster's cap hit in 2012 is $6 million. That means the Texans would have around $51 million in cap (more than 40%) wrapped up in seven players (and that wouldn't include Williams).
Add a fat Williams contract to the bunch and you could easily have the Texans using roughly half of their cap space on eight players - and the other half would be spread across the other 45 players plus contingency space for injured reserve.
See where I'm going with this?
As an aside, the cap values on the spotrac site may or may not be totally accurate because Andre Johnson, Antonio Smith and DeMeco Ryans re-structured their deals to help the Texans get under the cap last year and those amounts appear to be the pre-restructure amounts. So those cap figures may vary a bit, but they're probably close enough for this discussion.
As another aside, Williams' rookie deal with the Texans was 6 years - $54 million, with $26.5 million guaranteed.
How about that franchise tag for Mario? That would be even worse cap-wise than a long term deal since his tag (and cap hit) would be $16.56 million in 2012 until a long term deal or a trade could be worked out.
And then there's always the option to let him walk.
This wouldn't make sense to many fans but this is a business decision and you have to ask yourself the question: Is Mario Williams absolutely essential to the success of the Texans defense going forward?
I'm talking essential to the point where you're going to make him the highest paid player on the defense, a decision that will have a significant financial ripple effect throughout the rest of the roster?
Also, Mario has had his troubles with injuries over the past two seasons, landing on IR in both the 2010 and 2011 seasons with a sports hernia and a torn pectoral muscle.
What if you took Mario's money and spent it on a free agent WR2 and CB2 much like the Texans did last year when the passed on Nnamdi and signed Johnathan Joseph and Danieal Manning for the same amount?
I floated this idea on Twitter a few days ago and most of my followers liked the idea of taking care of Arian and then using the money it would take to sign Mario and spend it on other needs, and then drafting another outside linebacker to back up Barwin and Reed.
Plus, this isn't just a decision for 2012. The Texans have a much more challenging situation ahead of them in free agency in 2013 so these decisions can't be based on one-year situational snapshots. There needs to be at least a two year cap health plan in place to avoid the situation known as cap hell.
What do you think, Mario or no Mario?
Schaub has a 350lb turd fall on his foot and we're back to Schaub's injury history? I just don't understand that line of thinking.
I don't see Kubes giving a 2nd thought to Yates over Schaub. If Schaub is healthy, he's the guy. For a few more years. Yates will definitely be #2 and being groomed, similar to Rodgers, minus the egomaniac "tutor".
Kubes may take a flyer on a QB in the late rounds, cuz he just can't seem to resist, unless he's picked a couple of TE's by then.
I really,really,really hope this entire draft is BPA all the way through. We could use quality depth at every position. I would rather not reach for a WR in the early rounds unless that WR was BPA at that particular spot.
As far as MW goes, I still think the best case scenario is a sign and trade. I hold out some small hope that MW thinks a lot like AJ and wants to finish what he started here and will be willing to sign a reasonable contract to see that through. MW has been so quiet(understandable after his "welcome" to the league a lot of fans gave him. I was ecstatic with the pick.) that none of us have a clue as to what he's thinking.
I didn't take Kube's comments as a polite kiss-off to MW. I took them as a coach staying out of the way of negotiations. This will be between Smith and MW and his agent. Kubes did right by bowing out of the conversation and not helping or hurting either side.
If we don't take a flyer, we'll more than likely grab an UDFA to carry on the scout team.
& while "some" people see a Flacco ceiling, the kid reminds me of Jake the Snake... only smarter.
I have a ton of respect for Yates and think he has a very bright future with the Texans. I just don;t see Kubes giving up on Schaub because Yates did pretty damned well, all things considered. Schaub was a HUGE gamble for Kubes and they've displayed a real chemistry together. I think that trumps the Yates "Cinderella" story in the real world. With Schaub, we're playing NE this week...as it stands now, we're all looking forward to FA and the draft.
Preaching to the choir.... I like Tj, what we've seen. But he has done nothing to make me believe he'll start over Schaub.
I believe there was a possibility, but that last game pretty much saved Schaub's job.
Tj will sit on the bench next season & wait his opportunity.
If Schaub is not healthy, every game he misses will be an opportunity for Tj to win the job, but he'd have to play better than Schaub, which right now, he's a far way off.
K
kingh99
Guest
The Texans won't shop Mario Williams. They just won't. They couldn't get his value shopping him. They are going to quietly go about the business of resigning him. Now that doesn't preclude the possibility of another team seeing the chance of possibly enticing the Texans to do a deal and if that was the case then sure, you always have to consider ways to improve your team.
It's going to be up to the rest of the league if he stays or goes. See Patriots trade of Seymour for how it's done. Almost identical points in their careers when the trade came. Is Mario worth a conditional top 10 #1? That's pretty close to value in my opinion. This team would compete instantly for Superbowl after Superbowl with a frontline QB out of the draft. RG3 type talent would instantly take this team over the top for a decade if the coaching staff stayed in place. It would be the new southern dynasty.
It's going to be up to the rest of the league if he stays or goes. See Patriots trade of Seymour for how it's done. Almost identical points in their careers when the trade came. Is Mario worth a conditional top 10 #1? That's pretty close to value in my opinion. This team would compete instantly for Superbowl after Superbowl with a frontline QB out of the draft. RG3 type talent would instantly take this team over the top for a decade if the coaching staff stayed in place. It would be the new southern dynasty.
I floated this idea back in April of 2011 and I took a lot of hits for it. I wanted to trade Mario before the season started and have a WR1b and another quality CB for this past season. I am not sure based on our QB situation whether it would have made a difference but I sure would have liked our chances. The situation we have now with Mario was going to happen no matter what if the FO kept him and they did and now we are here. We did not have to be is this situation. I know stfu and stop crying over spilt milk. Sorry it just pisses the hell out of me that the FO couldn't see what was going to happen.
srrono
All Pro
R.Smith may be able to resign him with some cap movement. I am leaning toward franchise tag trade. I got this from McClain's Chat today
Players will redo their contracts to lower their cap figure. But to get them to do it you have to give them a signing bonus that can be prorated for cap purposes over the life of the contract. Say a player makes $20 million
this season, and you want to reduce his cap figure. You sign him to a
new five-year contract and give him a 30 mil signing bonus with a
first-year base salary of $2.5 million. For cap purposes, he counts
7.5 million this year rather than $20 million. That saves a lot of
cap dollars to be spent on others.
Matt Schaub 2012 7,150,000 final year could do a extension and more cap freindly.
DeMeco Ryans 2012 5,900,000 renegotiate
Andre Johnson 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate
Owen Daniels 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate
Eric Winston 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate
Antonio Smith 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate
Jeff Garcia was 1,000,000 let go
Jake Delhome was 5,400,000 let go That seems way off
Matt Leinart 2012 3,000,000 cut
D.Ward 2011 875,000 let go bring in a undrafted FA
all salary info from
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/
Players will redo their contracts to lower their cap figure. But to get them to do it you have to give them a signing bonus that can be prorated for cap purposes over the life of the contract. Say a player makes $20 million
this season, and you want to reduce his cap figure. You sign him to a
new five-year contract and give him a 30 mil signing bonus with a
first-year base salary of $2.5 million. For cap purposes, he counts
7.5 million this year rather than $20 million. That saves a lot of
cap dollars to be spent on others.
Matt Schaub 2012 7,150,000 final year could do a extension and more cap freindly.
DeMeco Ryans 2012 5,900,000 renegotiate
Andre Johnson 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate
Owen Daniels 2012 6,500,000 renegotiate
Eric Winston 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate
Antonio Smith 2012 5,500,000 renegotiate
Jeff Garcia was 1,000,000 let go
Jake Delhome was 5,400,000 let go That seems way off
Matt Leinart 2012 3,000,000 cut
D.Ward 2011 875,000 let go bring in a undrafted FA
all salary info from
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
On Spotrac Delhommes figure was a 2 year contract for $9mill ending this offseason. I wondered if their figure was based on his previous team and they simply haven't updated it to the contract the Texans signed him to.
That said, I don't understand 100% how mid-season IR effects the cap, but the Texans may have had a shedload of cash knocking about as some of their highest paid players went down so maybe they were flashing the cash to get this guy out of retirement.
That said, I don't understand 100% how mid-season IR effects the cap, but the Texans may have had a shedload of cash knocking about as some of their highest paid players went down so maybe they were flashing the cash to get this guy out of retirement.
To date I have not heard any of Mario's team mates express that Mario needs to be on the team next year. Still only talking heads like McClain are saying anything. What does it say to the other players if the Texans sign Mario to a big longterm contract that will definitely effect what the Texans can do with their present players and other FAs. What would it say to you if you were a FA this year or next if the Texans signed Mario to a huge contract. I think the writing will be on the wall for a few of OUR FAs if this occurs. We as fans should get ready to hear "Well because of the salary cap we were unable to resign ...." and could we end up with the same WRs we had this year plus Jean and and draft choice. or "Kareem has really come along during the off season and he is our starting CB"
I would like to see Foster signed, a FA WR , a FA CB, our core team we had last year along with our draft choices to give needed depth in selected positions.
The weak points on this team this year were (besides QB due to injury) WRs and CB not defense. I know it is fun to imagine this defense with Mario but I think we need to take care of the players that got us through the playoffs this year and get the players that will take us to the SB next. Mario is a luxury we can not afford. I don't see how we can have both. Again just my opinion.
I would like to see Foster signed, a FA WR , a FA CB, our core team we had last year along with our draft choices to give needed depth in selected positions.
The weak points on this team this year were (besides QB due to injury) WRs and CB not defense. I know it is fun to imagine this defense with Mario but I think we need to take care of the players that got us through the playoffs this year and get the players that will take us to the SB next. Mario is a luxury we can not afford. I don't see how we can have both. Again just my opinion.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Garcia and Delhomme were both signed as free agents. Delhomee got 5.4 million from his previous team, not the Texans. Sporttrac just moved his team rather than updating it with the undisclosed contract numbers. It's likely that both were signed for ~600k-1 mill for the year, but both joined around week 14, and only got a fraction of that payout. So their cap figures are quite low.
Also, Srrono's numbers aren't including bonuses either, so most of those players listed are much higher.
Their salaries still count against the cap so long as they are still one of the top 51 contracts on the team. So even after Mario was moved to IR, his 15.1 mill or whatever money still counted against the cap for us throughout the season. Come next year, all these guys that come off IR will be on the team, but once we get down to 53 players, we need to be under the cap (sometime in August).
Did you miss the part where I said "and whatever else they need to" ?
I wasn't implying that in itself would be enough, but rather a starting point.
Blake
MMQB
Here is how I see it. Assuming we are right up against the CAP now @ 120 million. Assuming the CAP will go up to 127 million.
Data from Sportrac.
Jeff Garcia Unable to find what we paid him.
Jake Delhomme Unable to find what we paid him.
Quintin Demps cap hit was $668,750 this past season.
Dominique Barber cap hit was $587,000 this past season.
Arian Foster cap hit was $525,000 this past season.
Joel Dreessen cap hit was $1.225 million this past season.
Jason Allen cap hit was $1.23 million this past season, assuming we took over his original contract with the Dolphins.
Chris Myers cap hit was $3.5 million this past season.
Neil Rackers cap hit was $2.15 million this past season.
Matt Turk cap hit was $2 million this past season.
Derrick Ward cap hit was $1.75 million this past season.
Jon Weeks cap hit was $405,000 this past seaason.
Mario Williams cap hit was $15.15 million this past season.
That is roughly $36 million to play with. Plus whatever we paid those 2 vet QB's.
I really only see the Texans resigning Chris Myers, Arian Foster and Mario Williams. And maybe 1 or 2 others depending on their cost and value to the team. The others are more easily replaceable.
Jon Weeks is replaceable, but Kubiak seems to put a premium on deep snapping.
Neil Rackers could be replaced, but Kubiak will want a vet kicker. Neil has to be willing to keep his cap hit down.
Jake Delhomme and Jeff Garcia are gone.
Jason Allen will easily be replaced by Brandon Harris & Roc Carmichael.
Derrick Ward will easily be replaced by our draft class.
Joel Dreessen might be retained with a friendly cap number, but can be replaced by Garrett Graham.
Matt Turk will be replaced by Brett Hartmann.
Quintin Demps and Dominique Barber will be replaced by our draft class.
I would put Mario's cap hit around $10 million his first year. Foster, $7 million, Myers $5 million.
That is only $22 million. Even if I am off a few million here or there, it looks to be very achievable.
Data from Sportrac.
Jeff Garcia Unable to find what we paid him.
Jake Delhomme Unable to find what we paid him.
Quintin Demps cap hit was $668,750 this past season.
Dominique Barber cap hit was $587,000 this past season.
Arian Foster cap hit was $525,000 this past season.
Joel Dreessen cap hit was $1.225 million this past season.
Jason Allen cap hit was $1.23 million this past season, assuming we took over his original contract with the Dolphins.
Chris Myers cap hit was $3.5 million this past season.
Neil Rackers cap hit was $2.15 million this past season.
Matt Turk cap hit was $2 million this past season.
Derrick Ward cap hit was $1.75 million this past season.
Jon Weeks cap hit was $405,000 this past seaason.
Mario Williams cap hit was $15.15 million this past season.
That is roughly $36 million to play with. Plus whatever we paid those 2 vet QB's.
I really only see the Texans resigning Chris Myers, Arian Foster and Mario Williams. And maybe 1 or 2 others depending on their cost and value to the team. The others are more easily replaceable.
Jon Weeks is replaceable, but Kubiak seems to put a premium on deep snapping.
Neil Rackers could be replaced, but Kubiak will want a vet kicker. Neil has to be willing to keep his cap hit down.
Jake Delhomme and Jeff Garcia are gone.
Jason Allen will easily be replaced by Brandon Harris & Roc Carmichael.
Derrick Ward will easily be replaced by our draft class.
Joel Dreessen might be retained with a friendly cap number, but can be replaced by Garrett Graham.
Matt Turk will be replaced by Brett Hartmann.
Quintin Demps and Dominique Barber will be replaced by our draft class.
I would put Mario's cap hit around $10 million his first year. Foster, $7 million, Myers $5 million.
That is only $22 million. Even if I am off a few million here or there, it looks to be very achievable.
TexCanada
All Pro
I think I have the cap concept down, but could somebody correct me if I'm wrong?
Lets say the player and the team have agreed on a contract that will be for 4 years and 20 million dollars. Three possible ways to structure:
1) 20 mil split evenly over 4 years. Base Salary = 5mil/year. Cap hit = 5mil/year.
2) 10 mil signing bonus, remaining 10 split over 4 years. Base Salary = 2.5/year. Cap hit = 2.5 base + 2.5 for signing bonus for a total of 5mil/year
3) 10 mil signing bonus, base salary backloaded: year 1-3 = 1mil, year 4 = 7mil. Cap hit in year 1-3 would be the 1 mil for base + 2.5 for signing bonus for a total of 3.5mil. Year 4 cap hit is 7+2.5 = 9.5mil.
The third option has lowered the cap hit for the first 3 years of the contract, and still keeps the player happy by giving him 10 mil up front in the form of a bonus.
Did I get all of that right?
Lets say the player and the team have agreed on a contract that will be for 4 years and 20 million dollars. Three possible ways to structure:
1) 20 mil split evenly over 4 years. Base Salary = 5mil/year. Cap hit = 5mil/year.
2) 10 mil signing bonus, remaining 10 split over 4 years. Base Salary = 2.5/year. Cap hit = 2.5 base + 2.5 for signing bonus for a total of 5mil/year
3) 10 mil signing bonus, base salary backloaded: year 1-3 = 1mil, year 4 = 7mil. Cap hit in year 1-3 would be the 1 mil for base + 2.5 for signing bonus for a total of 3.5mil. Year 4 cap hit is 7+2.5 = 9.5mil.
The third option has lowered the cap hit for the first 3 years of the contract, and still keeps the player happy by giving him 10 mil up front in the form of a bonus.
Did I get all of that right?
Sorry I disagree. I may willing to give up some of the players but not all mentioned just to keep Mario who essentially was not even on the team. Too many things can happen if you make all these changes and you don't even take into consideration next year and the next. You may not be blowing up the Texans by making the changes you suggest but you sure are closer to blowing up this team than if you just trade Mario ( I really think it will be difficult to trade Mario now) and "improve" off what got you to the playoffs and beyond. This thread was started partially because of Mario's history before last year. Nothing changed as he got hurt again this year. I guess we just don't see things the same way.
Blake
MMQB
Correct.
Correct. Signing bonus can be given up front to. See Peppers Bears contract. Gave him his entire signing bonus up front. Cap hit for year 1 was $30 million.
I think you got it.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Great effort compiling all that, but there are a few more things to consider.
I added up those contracts you posted and got 29.19 million, not 36. Maybe someone else can double check the math for us.
Garcia and Delhomme didn't make enough this year to effect the 2012 cap of the Texans. If either gets re-signed, that new money will of course count. Matt Turk made 2 million deal with Jax, but was released. We likely paid him minimum for the games he played (terms were undisclosed), which means there won't be any significant money to count towards your total. Mike Brisiel is also a free agent this year, but I don't know what he makes, I would assume around 500k.
Contracts that will be going up next year:
Andre Johnson at at 6,000,000 6,500,000
DeMeco Ryans at at 5,800,000 5,900,000
Matt Schaub at at 5,700,000 7,150,000
Antonio Smith at at 4,600,000 5,500,000
Eric Winston at at 4,500,000 5,500,000
Kevin Walter at at 3,000,000 3,500,000
Matt Leinart at at 2,500,000 3,000,000 (probably will be cut)
Wade Smith at at 1,750,000 2,000,000
Rashad Butler at at 1,017,280 1,532,720
Brian Cushing at at 774,000 1,153,000
Kareem Jackson at at 405,000 700,000
Total cost 6.389 million in escalations from those contracts alone.
There are 12 rookie deals that will all be going up 85k each this year for a total cost of 1.02 million in escalations.
Contracts going down next year:
Shaun Cody at at 3,500,000 2,250,000
Savings of 1.25 million
Contract bought out:
David Anderson WR 333,333
Savings of 333k
Wild cards - Don't know the year-to-year salaries/bonuses:
Jonathan Joseph's deal
Daniel Manning's deal
JJ Watt, Reed, Harris, etc deals
Any of these deals could go up or down. For our purposes let's assume they stay the same.
Adding up all the costs and savings I get 6.033 million in extra cost next year. Subtract that and 2 million for Turk from your 36 million and you get approximately 28 million in free capspace to work with. If the total is 29 million as I got from adding your contracts, we have only 21 million to work with. Which makes it much more difficult to sign Foster, Mario and Myers.
Blake
MMQB
You do not trade/release young pass rushers. You just dont. See New York Giants.
Which player(s) are deal breakers for you? In my scenario that you responded to I brought back Myers, Foster, Williams, Weeks, and Rackers. I would also resign Mike Brisiel who I left off the FA list.
Lastly, I dont see Mario being out for 3 games in 2010 and 11 in 2011 as a problem. He played in 16/16 games his first 4 years. Players get injured. I wouldnt call his injury time excessive.