Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million

[Dutchrudder]

Personally I think that's where Mario should've been this season anyway. He and Watt would absolutely destroy the interior but durability with him is a concern. Cutting Smith is only to counter balance signing Mario which I don't think will happen so it's kind of a moot point anyway. Antonio Smith does a lot of things well but I don't think he's a top 5 DE, especially since so many teams employ the 34 defense.

Plus if Mario is coming back, in my mind, it HAS to be as a DE. No way you would take Barwin or Reed off for Mario. Those guys pressure the edge way more than Mario ever did. So where would Smith play? Nose?

I like Mario too but I never believed he was a game-changing elite end. I certainly don't think he could the best player on an elite D like the Texans are building. Just my opinion but I think his football skills don't equal his athleticism. I'm not trying to call him a workout warrior or a Vernon Gholston type, I just see more athleticism than anything else.

Smith isn't a good cut this year, but maybe next. He had a 12.5 million signing bonus which is 2.5 million against the cap each year. 2 years left on his deal, so cutting him would cost the team 5 million this year instead of the 8 mill he's scheduled to make. That would save 3 mill in 2012, and 8 mill in 2013.

He's certainly overpaid given his production, but I don't think it's so much that we need to get rid of him. I would much rather have Smith at 3-4 DE than Mario though. Mario never seemed to get penetration through the G/T spot. He was always better going 1 on 1 with a tackle or TE.

 

[HOU-TEX]

Personally I think that's where Mario should've been this season anyway. He and Watt would absolutely destroy the interior but durability with him is a concern. Cutting Smith is only to counter balance signing Mario which I don't think will happen so it's kind of a moot point anyway. Antonio Smith does a lot of things well but I don't think he's a top 5 DE, especially since so many teams employ the 34 defense.

Plus if Mario is coming back, in my mind, it HAS to be as a DE. No way you would take Barwin or Reed off for Mario. Those guys pressure the edge way more than Mario ever did. So where would Smith play? Nose?

I like Mario too but I never believed he was a game-changing elite end. I certainly don't think he could the best player on an elite D like the Texans are building. Just my opinion but I think his football skills don't equal his athleticism. I'm not trying to call him a workout warrior or a Vernon Gholston type, I just see more athleticism than anything else.

I don't agree with that. Mario was kickin rear while healthy and was also still learning the position. I have no doubt Mario would've even gotten better as the year went on. I dig your opinion though, cuz I do think Reed will get a lot better too. That's why I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if we weren't able to re-sign Mario.

So, I'm going to be satisfied either way.

 

[dinkatoid]

I am ignoring the contract situation for a moment because I just want to point out why it would be a good thing to have Mario at LB (obviously the main bad thing is the money).

One of the biggest arguments I have seen (again, outside of the money) for not wanting Mario is it takes Reed and Barwin off the field. I want to point out that we are not saying putting Mario and Barwin as our starters mean they play 100% of the snaps and Reed never sees the field. I think having a third big time rusher would be huge, and allow us to run a rotation of Mario/Barwin, Barwin/Reed, and then Mario/Reed. By doing this, we always have one coming in on fresh legs after a few plays off, without sacrificing the pressure we can bring.

Basically, while they won't be on the field as often, they will be more effective when they are on the field. Just look at the Giants as an example of this, but they do it with their D line. Osi, Tuck, Pierre-Paul (though they do flex him out as a DT sometimes), and kiwanuka all rotate in and out at the DE spots and are always a terror because of it.

 

[SW H-TOWN]

My personal opinion, we just cannot afford to keep Mario because we have to sign Brown and Foster. Right now they make nothing by NFL standards and are going to get huge contracts. The amount of cap space they are going to take up is going to be so much more than what they are are taking up now. Fosters cap hit this year is $525,000 and Brown's cap hit is $1,380,000. I know Brown is not a free agent until 2013 but you got to lock this guy up. This is not even mentioning the guys who will be free agents in 2012 and 2013 (Meyer, Barwin, McCain, Quin). I just don't think that we can afford to keep him.

 

[infantrycak]

To date I have not heard any of Mario's team mates express that Mario needs to be on the team next year.

Conner Barwin just disagreed with you in his interview on 610 am as well as calling him the best defensive player the Texans have and salivating at having he and Mario start and Reed spelling them such as suggested here:

One of the biggest arguments I have seen (again, outside of the money) for not wanting Mario is it takes Reed and Barwin off the field. I want to point out that we are not saying putting Mario and Barwin as our starters mean they play 100% of the snaps and Reed never sees the field. I think having a third big time rusher would be huge, and allow us to run a rotation of Mario/Barwin, Barwin/Reed, and then Mario/Reed. By doing this, we always have one coming in on fresh legs after a few plays off, without sacrificing the pressure we can bring.

 

[Dishman]

I am ignoring the contract situation for a moment because I just want to point out why it would be a good thing to have Mario at LB (obviously the main bad thing is the money).

One of the biggest arguments I have seen (again, outside of the money) for not wanting Mario is it takes Reed and Barwin off the field. I want to point out that we are not saying putting Mario and Barwin as our starters mean they play 100% of the snaps and Reed never sees the field. I think having a third big time rusher would be huge, and allow us to run a rotation of Mario/Barwin, Barwin/Reed, and then Mario/Reed. By doing this, we always have one coming in on fresh legs after a few plays off, without sacrificing the pressure we can bring.

Basically, while they won't be on the field as often, they will be more effective when they are on the field. Just look at the Giants as an example of this, but they do it with their D line. Osi, Tuck, Pierre-Paul (though they do flex him out as a DT sometimes), and kiwanuka all rotate in and out at the DE spots and are always a terror because of it.

After all of the injuries suffered this past season, having the the depth you described may be incredibly important. Besides, who is the next Barwin or Reed to step up if, Lord forbid, Barwin or Reed went down in the future? Sure, Braman is lurking, but is he ready to contribute like the other cats have?

 

[gafftop]

After all of the injuries suffered this past season, having the the depth you described may be incredibly important. Besides, who is the next Barwin or Reed to step up if, Lord forbid, Barwin or Reed went down in the future? Sure, Braman is lurking, but is he ready to contribute like the other cats have?

I hear you.
At least we have starters at those positions.
Lord forbid our draft choices don't work out and we still have Kareem as our starting CB and Jacoby and Walters as our No. 2 and No.3 WR.
I say draft choices because if we sign Mario I don't think we have any money for FA's plus maybe we lose Myers I don't know. That is Lord forbid to me.

 

[welsh texan]

I can't help but feel that Myers going to the pro-bowl makes that negotiation a little tougher. That said, I'd definitely say he is a product of scheme as much as anyone, he's all athleticism and isn't going to be anywhere near as good in a more conventional blocking scheme. Hopefully all parties realise that.

Brown is another one who I could imagine gets voted to the pro-bowl his contract year, he played well this year, his Madden rating goes through the roof next, people vote him in based on that. And then we pay for the privilege the following off-season.

I feel like I want to point out that I'm not opposed to either eventuality on the Mario front, if they do sign him, I trust that they have enough spare cash in the pipeline to keep hold of the rest of them, if they let him walk, then I'll be happy that they'll have the money to spend on the other positions of need in FA.

The only option I genuinely cannot see happening is any kind of trade, I just feel that boat has passed and I'm sure the CBA had mention of a lot of red tape getting in the way of such deals.

 

[dalemurphy]

Where do you get that any such promise was made to Foster?

This preseason, it was fairly widely reported that the Texans brass asked Foster to prove it one more year and then he'd get a deal. Sorry that I don't have a source handy, but I'm sure some other posters can confirm this.

 

[Rey]

I don't agree with that. Mario was kickin rear while healthy and was also still learning the position. I have no doubt Mario would've even gotten better as the year went on. I dig your opinion though, cuz I do think Reed will get a lot better too. That's why I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if we weren't able to re-sign Mario.

So, I'm going to be satisfied either way.

I think this is where I'm at...

I'd prefer Mario back, but if he's not then I'll live...

 

[Rey]

This preseason, it was fairly widely reported that the Texans brass asked Foster to prove it one more year and then he'd get a deal. Sorry that I don't have a source handy, but I'm sure some other posters can confirm this.

I remember those rumblings, but if I recall that was more fan/media speculation than actual reporting and quotes from the Texans...

I could be wrong though...

 

[thunderkyss]

99, it is not about getting value for Mario; rather about getting what you can if it is decided to trade him. I cannot imagine anyone even Mario's biggest fan thinking we could get a top 10 first round for him. Most fans either love him or hate him. Few seem to step back & just give a fair eval. It is up to Robert McNair only to decide if Mario remains a Texan. Regardless of any offer, Bob could turn it down

If Mario is not a Texans next year, we get nothing.

We cannot sign & trade Mario. We cannot franchise Mario. If Mario ends up with another team, we're screwed (other than saving the money from signing him).

Mario is an UFA, if we get past March whatever without signing him to a long term deal.

If we sign Mario to a long term deal, it is highly unlikely they would sign him without a big signing bonus (if I were his agent, I wouldn't allow it) then that bonus will hit our cap for this year.... all of it. & Richard Smith can't be stupid enough to let that happen.

The best deal for the Texans, is to sign Mario for 5 or 6 years. Manage his cap to $7-$9M for the next three years with a low salary so the signing bonus is actually his pay for the first three years.

Then we can either trade him or extend him when we get to the meat of his contract. Then you've got a conundrum. If Mario plays well enough that we can fleece another team...... why wouldn't we want that player on our team?

But, if we franchise Mario, his tag will be his cap hit. If we franchise him at $17million (20% raise) or $22million (I don't know where that number comes from) that is what he will cost against our cap. If we trade him that's $17-$22M of dead money.

If we sign Mario to a long term deal, with a $9M cap number (I don't think it will be that high) that frees up $4M from his 2011 cap number. We can use that money for our FA wide receiver along with whatever salary cap increase there may be.

 

[Lucky]

From Pasquarelli in 2006

Thanks, KT. Someone give this guy some rep for me.

In the case of Williams, he received a $2.625 million roster bonus on what essentially is a five-year deal with an option for a sixth season. Under the terms of the contract, the base salaries for the first five years -- $275,000 (2006), $3.625 million (2007), $4.35 million (2008), $5.075 million (2009) and $5.8 million (2010) -- are fully guaranteed. That totals $21.75 million in guarantees.

But the guarantees escalate to $26.5 million next spring, when the Texans pay Williams $12 million to exercise their option for a sixth season on the contract. By exercising the option, the Texans reduce the salaries in Years 2-5 of the contract -- to $975,000 (2007), $1.575 million (2008), $2.3 million (2009) and $3.025 million (2010) -- and add the 2011 season at a base salary of $3.725 million. All the base salaries are guaranteed, bringing the total guaranteed money to $26.5 million.

Williams can void the final two years of the deal based on playing time levels and if he and the team reach certain predetermined performance levels, but the Texans then have a right to buy back the voided 2010 and 2011 seasons at a cost of $8.5 million. There are plenty of incentives, like $125,000 in most years for leading the league in sacks, bonuses for honors and playoff victories, and escalators that can raise the base salaries in 2010 and 2011 by $6 million and $9.5 million, respectively.

I'm going to try and wade through these numbers to give my best guess on Mario's 2011 cap number.

Base Salary - $9.5 million
2011 Allocated Bonus for 6th year option - $12 million/5 years - $2.4 million
2011 Allocated Bonus for buyback of 2010 and 2011 - $8.5 million/2 years - $4.25 million

Total 2011 cap figure - $9.5 million + $2.4 million + $4.25 million = $16.15 million

A $16.15 million figure would lead to a $19.38 franchise tag. That's around 15% of the Texans total cap. That's just unrealistic to even consider using. So the dream of the Texans tagging Mario and trading him for a bushel of draft picks are just that. A dream.

I wish Alan Burge or Keith Weiland would weigh in to offer their cap expertise. As an armchair GM, I loved the work they did.

 

[gafftop]

If Mario is not a Texans next year, we get nothing.

We cannot sign & trade Mario. We cannot franchise Mario. If Mario ends up with another team, we're screwed (other than saving the money from signing him).

Mario is an UFA, if we get past March whatever without signing him to a long term deal.

If we sign Mario to a long term deal, it is highly unlikely they would sign him without a big signing bonus (if I were his agent, I wouldn't allow it) then that bonus will hit our cap for this year.... all of it. & Richard Smith can't be stupid enough to let that happen.

The best deal for the Texans, is to sign Mario for 5 or 6 years. Manage his cap to $7-$9M for the next three years with a low salary so the signing bonus is actually his pay for the first three years.

Then we can either trade him or extend him when we get to the meat of his contract. Then you've got a conundrum. If Mario plays well enough that we can fleece another team...... why wouldn't we want that player on our team?

But, if we franchise Mario, his tag will be his cap hit. If we franchise him at $17million (20% raise) or $22million (I don't know where that number comes from) that is what he will cost against our cap. If we trade him that's $17-$22M of dead money.

If we sign Mario to a long term deal, with a $9M cap number (I don't think it will be that high) that frees up $4M from his 2011 cap number. We can use that money for our FA wide receiver along with whatever salary cap increase there may be.

Thunder,
Good post. We discussed this last year and if we kept Mario for 2011 this was the way it was going to work out one way or the other. Our best option trading Mario before the 2011 season has passed. I think we lose no matter what. I hate losing VALUE and that is what mario had last year. Now i agree that we have lost the option of trading him and geting something. Really bothers me that no matter what happens we do not get max value for Mario. I think if we keep him we may lose our chance to PU FAs at WR and CB or we lose some of our current players plus we take a chance of losing the chemistry we had at the end of the season. I have heard talk of letting Demeco go, maybe OD, to sign Mario. I have heard we need to target a position like WR in the draft instead of taking BPA. I think we targeted CB when we chose KJ. I still lean towards letting Mario walk if it is true we cannot trade him and using the cap space to keep and reward some of the players that got us into the playoff this year. PU a 1b wr and 1b cb and go into draft going after BPA. I still base half my decison on Mario not being able to stay healthy. As you can see this Mario issue really concerns me because I think this will be one of the most important decisions the FO will make. Their decision will have many implications for the Texans in the present and future.

We had a chance this year to see how the defense would perform without Mario and i think it performed at a high level. This obviously goes a long way in my leaning towards going on without Mario.

I know I keep regurgitating the same thoughts. I have been obsessed with this issue for almost a year. I am going to try and stay away from this thread until actual information arises. Sorry about putting y'all through my problem. thanks

 

[thunderkyss]

I agree with many of your views on Mario.
I agree if he is not signed before he hits the market he is gone.
I agree we do not have 17-20 mill to franchise him.
I still don't understand how you franchise and trade. ??? It would be a plus if that could be pulled off.

We were so close this year even with a rookie QB. I think with MS we are playing this week with an even chance to go to the SB. Just like last year before the season started I thought we needed a real 1b wr and a quality CB in addition to JJ. I think you go out and get two FAs (WR and CB) so you know what you have. It worked last year with JJ and DM. Don't hope you get these 2 players in the draft. Draft another WR because I think we need 2 real WRs besides AJ.

To do this requires money. I don't think we will have the money if Mario is here. So if we keep Mario we roll the dice on the draft AND Mario to stay healthy again.

I also have no desire to mess up the chemistry this team had at the end. I think the chemistry was there. You make all the changes necessary to keep Mario and there is a chance you lose that chemistry. I also think paying Foster now is important to the chemistry of this team.

Again we were so close with NO Mario. I don't feel Mario alone will put us over the hill. Sure you can say we will take care of those needs in the draft and maybe you will. Just think if you can handle those two needs in FA and then build with the draft. Draft BPA etc.

I kinda understand where you're coming from. We were so close without Mario, Schaub, & Aj. However, it is silly to me to expect to repeat what we did this year, by picking & chosing which guys we bring back.

Is Schaub good for this team? Yes, we are better with him.

Is Andre good for this team? Yes, we are better with him.

Is Mario good for this team? Yes, we are better with him.

I know "we are better with Mario" is my opinion but, to me, it works just like wanting a FA WR/CB because you "know" what you are going to get. I know Mario will work on this team, because I've seen it. I know he makes JJWatt, Conor Barwin, & Antonio Smith better, because I've seen it.

Granted, Jj Watt & Barwin has shown to be pretty damn good without Mario, doesn't change the fact that they were better with Mario & if you don't want Jj Watt to hit the sophomore slump, your chances are better if we had another playmaker on the line.

If we don't sign Mario, imo, an edge rusher becomes more important to this team in the draft & FA than a WR & those guys are not easy to come by. An edge rusher becomes the most important need because you have to worry about injury, you have to worry about the sophomore slump of both Reed & Watt, & you have to worry about other teams (especially in your division) getting better to account for your pass rush (either through the draft of FA).

We've got a great team, with a great locker room & adding a FA always stresses that. Look at GangGreen.... they were where we are & they went heavy on the FAs... then they didn't have enough balls to go around. That was a running team that all of a sudden needed a QB to maximize the talent they acquired...... true, that doesn't have to happen here, more than likely won't... but you won't know until you know.

I am not a "sign Mario at any cost" guy. I honestly do not care what the total contract is valued at. I do not care what signing bonus he gets, I do not care where he ranks, as far as pay, compared to other DEs, or LBs, or whatever. All I care about, is that his cap number comes down from $13 million, considerably. If they can't get his cap number to $9million or below, then I'll say they are making a mistake.

 

[thunderkyss]

Then we are likely to lose Chris Myers, not get a good #2 WR in free agency, and will break our promise to give Foster a new deal this off-season.

We were right up against the cap this year and aren't getting much cap relief. We will either sign Mario to a long term deal or we will let him walk. I'm pretty confident of that.

Ridiculous.

The cap will go up.

We were at (or over, I can't remember) the cap when we were chasing Asomugha, had no money to sign Jjo & Manning, but we found a way.

One thing I heard on the radio today, is that Demeco had an $8 million cap. He could restructure... & signing Mario to a long term deal would lower his cap (franchising should be out of the question).

Kdub needs to restructure or find another team.

The cap is Rick Smith's deal. Let them do what they do.

 

[thunderkyss]

Good news is Indy is near maxed out on cap and facing decisions about Manning and a few other key vets.Jax and Tenn typically don't make big FA splashes. So I think we're safe for in division.

If you're worried about Mario going to another team, then you've got to understand how releasing him is simply the wrong thing to do.

Sign him to a long term deal to lower his cap figure.

 

[76Texan]

I really appreciate all of the work you guys put out and it's interesting "at times", but just like stats (which I used to love so much) I've come to "hate" financial numbers.
I've got a bunch of members in the extended family in oil and gas accounting (25-30 yr experience each), trust me, I've learned enough with all their shop talk, LOL!

I love to see Schaub in the playoffs for us just like I love to see Mario doing the same.

I hope Schaub comes back healthy.
I hope they work out the numbers with Mario.
But it's a business, and if the Texans have to part with Mario, I understand.

 

[thunderkyss]

Really bothers me that no matter what happens we do not get max value for Mario. I think if we keep him we may lose our chance to PU FAs at WR and CB or we lose some of our current players plus we take a chance of losing the chemistry we had at the end of the season. I have heard talk of letting Demeco go, maybe OD, to sign Mario.

The value is in keeping Mario.

It makes some sense, to let Demeco go..... if he's only going to be a 2 down player..... if it really is Wade's "scheme" to go into a dime package with an extra safety. I'd like to think we would have played more nickel this year if Demeco came into the season at 100%.

But, I have to believe this talk is more "hate motivated" because we don't see the cut Demeco options out there, it's all about Mario.

If we sign him to a long term deal, it's possible they can work his cap number to $5M... I don't know how, but they can. If you then cut Demeco, you can add his $8M to the $8M we save by lowering Mario's number & you have $16 Million to sign your WR & CB.

What would actually be better, would be to find FA numbers of similar WR/CB deals we are talking about to find out how much we need to "save" in order to sign them...... it would be nice to know how much cap room we would have when the cap goes up.

I have heard we need to target a position like WR in the draft instead of taking BPA. I think we targeted CB when we chose KJ. I still lean towards letting Mario walk if it is true we cannot trade him and using the cap space to keep and reward some of the players that got us into the playoff this year. PU a 1b wr and 1b cb and go into draft going after BPA.

We've already seen an issue getting a 2nd round pick on the field. We're talking about giving just about everybody on the team a "max" deal, it would be harder in 2012 to find a spot for even a 1st rounder.

I think we should get away from BPA & all that all together. I'd consider trading away our 1st in exchange for an extra 3rd, 4th, & #1 next year.

We need to think about what is best for our team & start acquiring draft picks like money. Save them so that we can make the moves we'll need to make to get the players we want to get, regardless where we are in future drafts.

Now I'm not saying that's what we should do, but we should consider it if we do not project a positive player for our team. I wouldn't draft an inside LB if he is the BPA at the 26th spot, if we decide to keep Demeco & with Sharpton expected back next year & I'm pretty impressed with Dobbins & Alexander.

There is no need for us to reach on a player/position & there is no reason for us to pick a guy just to pick a guy.

If Blackmon (or a reasonable alternate) is there, take him, otherwise, maximize the pick for our team & use it to get more picks & future picks.

I still base half my decison on Mario not being able to stay healthy. As you can see this Mario issue really concerns me because I think this will be one of the most important decisions the FO will make. Their decision will have many implications for the Texans in the present and future.

Mario has generally been productive for us when he wasn't 100% I think he played through many injuries, because he knew we needed him to & like idiots, the coaches allowed him to do so.

I do not think Mario is damaged goods. With a solid rotation, something we've never had since Mario has been here (both Bullman & Barwin got hurt early last season otherwise 2010 would have been the year Mario would have help & a rotation), Mario will be able to be very productive all year long, the same way Tate helps Foster stay on his game.

We had a chance this year to see how the defense would perform without Mario and i think it performed at a high level. This obviously goes a long way in my leaning towards going on without Mario.

So what do you do if Barwin gets hurt? Popped for Steroids? Comes to camp heavy? Mother dies? Get married? Or for whatever reason is unable to repeat this season's performance like so many "great" pass rushers (Mark Anderson) of the past?

When Mario is playing, he's one of the best in the league & has been so for 6 years. We should all cross all our fingers & toes, wish on Rainbows & light some candles hoping & praying that Barwin, Reed, & Jj can do it again.

Remember Cushing's sophomore season? Remember Barwin's?

I know I keep regurgitating the same thoughts. I have been obsessed with this issue for almost a year. I am going to try and stay away from this thread until actual information arises. Sorry about putting y'all through my problem. thanks

well, you know what they say about dumb questions..... you obviously weren't the only one thinking of it.

 

[steelbtexan]

O/U

MW 10 games played next yr?

 

[76Texan]

O/U

MW 10 games played next yr?

Health is always a concern, but it's also a concern with Schaub or AJ just the same, steelb.

 

[TEXANRED]

Pay the man. That is what you do with him.

 

[Goldensilence]

If you're worried about Mario going to another team, then you've got to understand how releasing him is simply the wrong thing to do.

Sign him to a long term deal to lower his cap figure.

Question is what does this long term deal look like? Closer to the one the Bears gave up for Julius Peppers? The one the Eagles gave Trent Cole? Right in between, John Abraham's deal with the Falcons was 6 yrs 45 mil and his contract was largely back loaded.

I can't help but wonder how much he could really command on the FA market considering he's been a double digit sack guy the past two years without much help and is going to get better. With that kind of knowledge does Mario and his agent hold out until he can hit the market?

 

[Goldensilence]

I also wanted to add I don't think the question is whether or not people are a fan of Mario Williams or doubt what he brings to the team. I think really at this point its a question of keeping the cap space to remain competitive in the future.

I like Mario and what he brings to the team, but I don't want him back if it's going to cripple the salary cap situation for the team.

 

[dalemurphy]

Ridiculous.

The cap will go up.

We were at (or over, I can't remember) the cap when we were chasing Asomugha, had no money to sign Jjo & Manning, but we found a way.

One thing I heard on the radio today, is that Demeco had an $8 million cap. He could restructure... & signing Mario to a long term deal would lower his cap (franchising should be out of the question).

Kdub needs to restructure or find another team.

The cap is Rick Smith's deal. Let them do what they do.

It's all about value when there is a budget (or a cap). Rick Smith, whom I have supported for 5 years and believed (even last year) to be a very good GM, will realize re-signing Mario at market value is poor value (just like he did with Dunta) and Mario will be playing elsewhere in 2012.

Prepare yourself for this, TK.

 

[gafftop]

Thunder,

i think the Texans want to sign mario long term.
I don't see how the Texans sign him to a friendly contract at this time.
I think mario's agent knows the Texans can't franchise outright.
I think Mario wants to test the free agent market and I am not sure how the Texans can stop him from doing so.
The only way the Texans keep him is if he tests FA market and gets no big deal and we match.
Too much thinking a waste of time and energy.
Time will tell.

 

[gafftop]

It's all about value when there is a budget (or a cap). Rick Smith, whom I have supported for 5 years and believed (even last year) to be a very good GM, will realize re-signing Mario at market value is poor value (just like he did with Dunta) and Mario will be playing elsewhere in 2012.

Prepare yourself for this, TK.

I had no real confidence in Smith until last year when he pulled the trigger on JJ ( and got Manning too boot) and did not play the fool waiting for Aso. I am hoping Rick sees it the same way I do. It seems to be a no brainer to me. But I also would have traded Mario before the season started last year and in fairness he might have tried. So who knows. Time will tell.

 

[thunderkyss]

I can't help but wonder how much he could really command on the FA market considering he's been a double digit sack guy the past two years without much help and is going to get better. With that kind of knowledge does Mario and his agent hold out until he can hit the market?

That's totally up to Mario & how badly he wants to be here. If Mario doesn't want to be here, I don't want him here.

I like Mario and what he brings to the team, but I don't want him back if it's going to cripple the salary cap situation for the team.

Agreed. I still expect Rick Smith to be frugal & put the teams interest ahead of Mario's.

 

[thunderkyss]

It's all about value when there is a budget (or a cap). Rick Smith, whom I have supported for 5 years and believed (even last year) to be a very good GM, will realize re-signing Mario at market value is poor value (just like he did with Dunta) and Mario will be playing elsewhere in 2012.

Prepare yourself for this, TK.

Except he franchised Dunta & gave him more money than he ever should have in one season..... not to mention they offered Dunta top 5 money.

Dunta isn't here, because Dunta doesn't want to be here.

If Mario decides he doesn't want to be here.... trust me, I'll be okay.

 

[leebigeztx]

Thunder,

i think the Texans want to sign mario long term.
I don't see how the Texans sign him to a friendly contract at this time.
I think mario's agent knows the Texans can't franchise outright.
I think Mario wants to test the free agent market and I am not sure how the Texans can stop him from doing so.
The only way the Texans keep him is if he tests FA market and gets no big deal and we match.
Too much thinking a waste of time and energy.
Time will tell.

Why do people make it seem like they can't have a cap friendly deal. Philly,n.e., and other teams can always do it. Here is what I've posted a few times.

6yrs 72m with 36m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs. This hs been the trend and it keeps dead money off the books. Pretty simple too if you use simple math.

6m in salary and 6m due on the 1st day of nfl calender. After the 1st 3 yrs, they could cut him and have a $0 balance. If he's healthy and playing well, they could accelerate his salary into bonus money and that drops his salary cap impact.

 

[thunderkyss]

Thunder,

I think Mario wants to test the free agent market and I am not sure how the Texans can stop him from doing so.

The only way the Texans keep him is if he tests FA market and gets no big deal and we match.

Too much thinking a waste of time and energy.
Time will tell.

If Mario makes it to FA, we've lost him.

If I'm Rick Smith & I put a figure in front of him that insults him, I'm not going to let him insult me by looking elsewhere & expecting me to match it.

If Rick Smith is the GM he's supposed to be, he knows what Mario is worth.

I'd hate for people to start calling Mr. McNair cheap again, but I wouldn't pay Mario a penny over what my internal valuation says he's worth.

 

[thunderkyss]

Why do people make it seem like they can't have a cap friendly deal. Philly,n.e., and other teams can always do it. Here is what I've posted a few times.

6yrs 72m with 36m guaranteed in the 1st 3 yrs. This hs been the trend and it keeps dead money off the books. Pretty simple too if you use simple math.

6m in salary and 6m due on the 1st day of nfl calender. After the 1st 3 yrs, they could cut him and have a $0 balance. If he's healthy and playing well, they could accelerate his salary into bonus money and that drops his salary cap impact.

I think it's going to have to be closer to 6 yrs $90Million...

The contract is worth $91.5 million with $42 million guaranteed. Peppers will make $40.5 million over the first three years. The number could increase if he makes the Pro Bowl, records a certain number of sacks or is defensive player of the year.

This guy had similar "issues"

And maybe, he'll shoot down a reputation for taking plays off, one that he feels is unwarranted.

I don't know how Peppers' deal is structured, but Mario's could take that $40.5M guaranteed in the form of a bonus.... say $24.5M in signing bonus & $4M salary over the first four years. His cap number would be $9Million (24.5/6 = 4 + 4 (salary)= 8). After the 4th year, there is still $8Million that would go against the cap as dead money if he's traded away. So if we trade him, we'll be "paying him" for 1 year after he's gone.

 

[DocBar]

I think it's going to have to be closer to 6 yrs $90Million...

​

This guy had similar "issues"

​

I don't know how Peppers' deal is structured, but Mario's could take that $40.5M guaranteed in the form of a bonus.... say $24.5M in signing bonus & $4M salary over the first four years. His cap number would be $9Million (24.5/6 = 4 + 4 (salary)= 8). After the 4th year, there is still $8Million that would go against the cap as dead money if he's traded away. So if we trade him, we'll be "paying him" for 1 year after he's gone.

I really hope we can resign MW, but I also wanted us to throw the bank at Aso. Sometimes less is more. If it makes sense and we can resign our other FA's, do it. I'd rather have Foster, Myers, Dreesen and others than just MW.

 

[gafftop]

If Mario makes it to FA, we've lost him.

If I'm Rick Smith & I put a figure in front of him that insults him, I'm not going to let him insult me by looking elsewhere & expecting me to match it.

If Rick Smith is the GM he's supposed to be, he knows what Mario is worth.

I'd hate for people to start calling Mr. McNair cheap again, but I wouldn't pay Mario a penny over what my internal valuation says he's worth.

I essentially agree that if Mario makes it to FA he is gone.

I don't think he will get Peppers money but who knows it only takes ONE team to think he is worth it. I think he is worth more to other teams than what he is worth to us.

How can people think McNair is cheap the money is not saved it will be used for other players.

The more I read your posts the more hope I have that Mario will not be signed.

I think the Texans might have talked to Mario before the season started to work something out and he said sorry I want to test the waters.

I really have to get off the thread.

 

[leebigeztx]

Thunder, the bears took advantage of the uncapped yr for peppers. They gave him 30m in that uncaped yr. If they were to cut peppers right now, they would owe him 0. Just because mario is making 14m this yr doesn't mean that has to be a starting point.

 

[dalemurphy]

Except he franchised Dunta & gave him more money than he ever should have in one season..... not to mention they offered Dunta top 5 money.

Dunta isn't here, because Dunta doesn't want to be here.

If Mario decides he doesn't want to be here.... trust me, I'll be okay.

Dunta went where the money was. Atlanta offered him significantly more money than the Texans. Also, Dunta's franchise tag year was in a year when we were well under the cap and his cap number was only about $8 million, less than 1/2 of what Mario's number would be.

Finally... and I think this is the clearest evidence. The Texans were willing to let Dunta walk instead of overpaying him despite their desperate need for quality cornerbacks and the shear lack of free agent CBs available in the market that year. If you recall, the only other noteworthy FA CB was Leigh Bodden... the Texans made an unsuccessful bid at him. Remember also, this was after the 2009 season, when the Texans were close to the playoffs and the pressure was mounting on this regime. Wise or not, the Texans willingly took a step back with their secondary talent/experience simply because they didn't see good value in the numbers needed to sign a guy that could actually help the team.

If that model has not changed, there is no way Rick Smith pays Mario Williams a contract that will exceed 10% of the teams cap figure. NO WAY!

Some people think the model has changed and would use the Manning and Joseph signing as evidence of that. I disagree. I think they found value in those free agents (the market was flooded with top level DBs this off-season). Essentially, the Texans signed Joseph for the same deal Atlanta signed Dunta for a year earlier. This year, for instance, the Texans should find good value to go with their needs in the free agent WR market, which is going to be flooded with talent. I believe the Texans will let Mario walk and use the cap relief to extend Foster and Schaub, sign Myers and others, and also go get a quality playmaker at WR.

One final point, this defense has an identity now. That identity is predicated on relentless effort and high energy. We can agree to disagree on just how good Mario has been but surely nobody with any intellectual integrity would argue that Mario is a relentless, high energy player. It's possible that Mario would've had 16 sacks if he would've stayed healthy this year. That's true. But, I think the collective defensive unit would've struggled to find their identity and would not have become the dominate force it is now, despite Mario's considerable, though hypothetical, "production".

 

[thunderkyss]

Thunder, the bears took advantage of the uncapped yr for peppers. They gave him 30m in that uncaped yr. If they were to cut peppers right now, they would owe him 0. Just because mario is making 14m this yr doesn't mean that has to be a starting point.

The bears contract was based on the Haynesworth contract.

They restructured this year.

The Chicago Bears quietly restructured the contract last month of defensive end Julius Peppers to save themselves approximately $8 million in salary cap space for 2011, according to a league source.

With Peppers due a $10.5 million roster bonus for 2011, the Bears restructured the defensive end's contract on Feb. 23 to reduce his salary cap number from $12 million to $4.3 million in anticipation of the cap returning once a new collective bargaining is reached between the NFL and the players union.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

This thread is going to be very funny to read in a couple of months. On the Palm scale it gets :mariopalm::kubepalm::vincepalm:

Don King said it best, "If you cast your bread upon the water and you have faith, you'll get back cash. If you don't have faith, you'll get soggy bread."

 

[dalemurphy]

This thread is going to be very funny to read in a couple of months. On the Palm scale it gets :mariopalm::kubepalm::vincepalm:

Don King said it best, "If you cast your bread upon the water and you have faith, you'll get back cash. If you don't have faith, you'll get soggy bread."

Don't knock: French Onion Soup and Bread Pudding

 

[steelbtexan]

Health is always a concern, but it's also a concern with Schaub or AJ just the same, steelb.

Didn't answer the ?

O/U 10 games, nice diversion though, the difference is AJ has already gotten paid. If Schaub gets hurt again I dont think that I would sign him to a long term high $$$$ either.

Their injury history is too great.

BTW, I would re-sign MW to a team friendly extention. Otherwise I would let him walk. Dont think the Texans hardnosed, playing with their hair on fire style of defense occurred with MW on the sideline by coincedence do you? MW has a history of taking plays off that dates back to his days at NC St.

The culture of this defense has changed and MW either needs to buy in or move on. How many plays did you see Watt take off this season? See the difference between the style of play between MW and Watt?

 

[gafftop]

I tend to agree with you. It makes me sick that we will get nothing or worse we sign Mario to another big contract. I would be OK with a proven player and a high draft choice next year. That is better than nothing. The Patriots get incrementally better with each trade. It may not be a blockbuster trade but they do get better and younger. The overall talent level of the team is always getting better, plus they know talent that allows them to continually get better. The Texans on the other hand tend to make trades that makes no difference or more often makes them worse. Have they ever made a trade that improved the team? I know Schaub, but we did not give up an actual player. Have we ever traded a player and received a draft choice or player? i umderstand we don't have a lot to trade. Mario is about the only one that MAY have value that I would trade. Just rambling now not looking forward to this coming season.

This thread is going to be very funny to read in a couple of months. On the Palm scale it gets :mariopalm::kubepalm::vincepalm:

Don King said it best, "If you cast your bread upon the water and you have faith, you'll get back cash. If you don't have faith, you'll get soggy bread."

KT,

The first post above was made exactly 9 months ago about one month into this thread and I don't think it is very funny. No matter what the outcome is on Mario I don't think I will ever find this thread funny.

I want the Texans to be the new Pats in the way that they stay at the top for a long time. I don't see that happening when we continue to miss on critical FO decisions. I will say last year other than the Jacoby decision which was part of the Texans decision not to do anything with the WR's, the above decision to keep Mario versus trade him which I agree would have been bold, maybe not picking up Brandon Lloyd for a 5th when AJ went down, and possibly still thinking KJ was the man, the FO had their best year to date. Here's to next year.

 

[Goldensilence]

Dale,

I think bringing up Dunta's situation is fitting. No Mario hasn't been forth coming the way Dunta was and won't be, but it doesn't change the fact for the right reasons the Texans let Dunta walk after franchising him. I don't know what kind of numbers he'll be looking at but, I'd be willing to bet its worth more than the contract Trent Cole got at about 5-6 million a year. Maybe not much as Peppers mammoth contract, but I am willing to bet there's going to be some teams out there willing to pay in the 50-60 million range.

He's ideal for a 4-3 DE and he was able to get some reps as a OLB in a 3-4. If we were still in a 4-3 and didn't have the talent behind him to manufacture any sort of rush and having bookends DEs can drive a what pressure you get. Honestly, We'd have to throw a big contract at him. No question about it. Without him the the past we would've gotten absolutely no pressure on QBs at all. That changed moving to the 3-4 this year under Phillips. We WERE able to manufacture consistent pressure without Mario Williams. I am not saying it wouldn't have been better to have him out there, but it wasn't a necessity like in the past. I am not saying our depth would be as good without him, but we have capable starters outside of Mario at OLB. I thought when we drafted Barwin the guy was tailor made as a OLB as opposed to a 4-3 DE. The guy straight balled this year and I think he could get even better next year. I guess what I am getting at is Mario Williams is a luxury in this defense and it showed how well they played without him.

IMO I think it's inevitable Mario walks for a bigger payday elsewhere and the Texans won't skip a beat.


I think Mario would ideally like to stay in Houston, Just crunching the numbers right now I think you're right that some people need to prepare to see Mario in another uniform come preseason.

 

[Blake]

I am well aware and have accepted that Mario might be gone next season. But I do think that the more likely scenario is that he stays. Houston is a playoff team. Houston has a defense where he can thrive, and was thriving. He will still get a large chunk of money. He doesnt have to uproot and move.

I will admit that I wanted Dunta back after he signed with the Falcons, but Dunta's level of play ended up not being worth his contract. I accept that. But Mario Williams is no Dunta Robinson.

The only thing I refuse to believe is that we let him walk. You franchise him, try to work out a deal, and worse case scenario use the market to drive up his trade value. There are going to be multiple teams who want his services. They wont want to just wait and assume they can offer him the most money as a FA, or that he would pick their city over the others.

 

[Goldensilence]

I am well aware and have accepted that Mario might be gone next season. But I do think that the more likely scenario is that he stays. Houston is a playoff team. Houston has a defense where he can thrive, and was thriving. He will still get a large chunk of money. He doesnt have to uproot and move.

I will admit that I wanted Dunta back after he signed with the Falcons, but Dunta's level of play ended up not being worth his contract. I accept that. But Mario Williams is no Dunta Robinson.

The only thing I refuse to believe is that we let him walk. You franchise him, try to work out a deal, and worse case scenario use the market to drive up his trade value. There are going to be multiple teams who want his services. They wont want to just wait and assume they can offer him the most money as a FA, or that he would pick their city over the others.

I think at this point the best we can hope for is a tag and trade deal. However, those instances are pretty rare in the NFL. The last two that stick out are Cassell and Jared Allen.

Allen obviously wanted out of KC and Cassell was insurance to make sure Brady was coming back healthy. After getting cleared on Brady it was pretty clear they needed to unload his franchise tag number.

I'm not exactly sure how it works but if Mario is tagged and we intend to trade him can he sign the tender making it harder to trade him? Or even if he does sign the tender upon trading can his new team work out a new deal? Does the cap take a hit regardless?

 

[SW H-TOWN]

Dale,

I think bringing up Dunta's situation is fitting. No Mario hasn't been forth coming the way Dunta was and won't be, but it doesn't change the fact for the right reasons the Texans let Dunta walk after franchising him. I don't know what kind of numbers he'll be looking at but, I'd be willing to bet its worth more than the contract Trent Cole got at about 5-6 million a year. Maybe not much as Peppers mammoth contract, but I am willing to bet there's going to be some teams out there willing to pay in the 50-60 million range.

He's ideal for a 4-3 DE and he was able to get some reps as a OLB in a 3-4. If we were still in a 4-3 and didn't have the talent behind him to manufacture any sort of rush and having bookends DEs can drive a what pressure you get. Honestly, We'd have to throw a big contract at him. No question about it. Without him the the past we would've gotten absolutely no pressure on QBs at all. That changed moving to the 3-4 this year under Phillips. We WERE able to manufacture consistent pressure without Mario Williams. I am not saying it wouldn't have been better to have him out there, but it wasn't a necessity like in the past. I am not saying our depth would be as good without him, but we have capable starters outside of Mario at OLB. I thought when we drafted Barwin the guy was tailor made as a OLB as opposed to a 4-3 DE. The guy straight balled this year and I think he could get even better next year. I guess what I am getting at is Mario Williams is a luxury in this defense and it showed how well they played without him.

IMO I think it's inevitable Mario walks for a bigger payday elsewhere and the Texans won't skip a beat.


I think Mario would ideally like to stay in Houston, Just crunching the numbers right now I think you're right that some people need to prepare to see Mario in another uniform come preseason.

The last two sentences are what I think. I really don't see how we can resign Foster and Brown, not to mention Myers and Barwin, and have enough cap space to keep Mario. I think he will get something in between the contracts Suggs and Peppers signed. The best case scenario would be to sign and trade him for some draft picks.

 

[SW H-TOWN]

I think at this point the best we can hope for is a tag and trade deal. However, those instances are pretty rare in the NFL. The last two that stick out are Cassell and Jared Allen.

Allen obviously wanted out of KC and Cassell was insurance to make sure Brady was coming back healthy. After getting cleared on Brady it was pretty clear they needed to unload his franchise tag number.

I'm not exactly sure how it works but if Mario is tagged and we intend to trade him can he sign the tender making it harder to trade him? Or even if he does sign the tender upon trading can his new team work out a new deal? Does the cap take a hit regardless?

Another good point. I have no idea if the Texans would take a cap hit if they signed Mario and traded him for draft picks. Does someone know?

 

[Brandon420tx]

I'm pretty sure he'd first have to A. Sign his tender, which he won't do if he knows we're trading him unless he likes the team we're trading him to. Then B. He has to sign a new contract with his new team or we take a big hit in cap.

Also, if we Tag him and the trades fall through (I'm pretty sure there is a fairly early deadline for this under the new CBA), we're stuck with the full tag unless we can get him a long term deal

 

[Bulls on Parade]

Mario Williams is a big piece to this team. Connor Barwin mentioned on the radio show earlier this week that he has a good feeling Mario is staying. The guy is a flat out beast, strongest player in the league. You can't block him one on one.

I felt he was starting to dominate the Steelers and on pace for a 15 to 20-sack season when he got hurt. I'm excited for 2012 with Wade Phillips coming back and Mario Williams anchoring the defense at outside linebacker. So Brooks Reed goes back to the bench. What's the problem?

I love Watt and Antonio Smith on the edge. Nothing wrong with Shaun Cody at Nose Tackle. It's a luxury to go out and draft another beast at Nose Tackle but that's cherry picking what I feel is the best defense in the league.

 

[msbbc833]

Homeboy is counting on getting a big new contract

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=212830

 

[Naiirb]

Homeboy is counting on getting a big new contract

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=212830

More like he knows he will be getting paid whether he stays here or not. Thats a sweet car though