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When do we end the Kareem experiment?

buddyboy said:
Why is it that KJ is being protected by the front 7, but it doesn't go the same way for Allen? KJ only succeeds because of the help around him, but Allen forces turnovers and makes big plays (no mention of the defense as a whole).
Click to expand...

buddy i am going off of what allen has done this season and last season, allen was out playing KJ and still creating turnovers last season when we had no pressure all season long. The whole secondary is now benefiting from the front 7 play if you have read all my posts in this thread i said the whole secondary is getting help from the front 7, not just KJ.
 
EllisUnit said:
buddy i am going off of what allen has done this season and last season, allen was out playing KJ and still creating turnovers last season when we had no pressure all season long. The whole secondary is now benefiting from the front 7 play if you have read all my posts in this thread i said the whole secondary is getting help from the front 7, not just KJ.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this entire post. Allen outplayed KJ last year. The front 7 got better this season. Both CBs benefited from the improvement. This includes JJo.

Then, I'll add my own statement: with the pressure, both KJ and Allen are contributing on defense to give us the defensive ranking we have now. KJ is not on the receiving end only of our top defense, and he is not pulling us down. He is contributing. As is Allen.
 
buddyboy said:
Then, I'll add my own statement: with the pressure, both KJ and Allen are contributing on defense to give us the defensive ranking we have now. KJ is not on the receiving end only of our top defense, and he is not pulling us down. He is contributing. As is Allen.
Click to expand...

Yes they are both contributing on defense and both have done a pretty good job actually. The ONLY reason i attack KJ the way i do is because of the certain few who always attack J. Allen who is also far from perfect. I will admith Allen is no shut down CB, but i cant stand how some people refuse to see some of the mistakes that KJ makes, and they always look for excuses.

My hatred for KJ is not as bad as everyone thinks infact if not for certain people on here i would actually show more support for him, but we all know when he makes a mistake and i cant stand to see people defend a player with B.S excuses all the time.
 
EllisUnit said:
Yes they are both contributing on defense and both have done a pretty good job actually. The ONLY reason i attack KJ the way i do is because of the certain few who always attack J. Allen who is also far from perfect. I will admith Allen is no shut down CB, but i cant stand how some people refuse to see some of the mistakes that KJ makes, and they always look for excuses.

My hatred for KJ is not as bad as everyone thinks infact if not for certain people on here i would actually show more support for him, but we all know when he makes a mistake and i cant stand to see people defend a player with B.S excuses all the time.
Click to expand...

To be fair, I think it's only 1 person.

For the last 4 or 5 games, I've actually been commenting on Allen's improvement.

& I've never said Kj is perfect.

I don't agree with those who say he doesn't have speed to stay with receivers on the deep routes... I think that's what you said. He's got the speed... he has no make-up speed, if he's beat, it's over. He has poor ball skills. But speed, he's got enough speed to play the position.
 
thunderkyss said:
To be fair, I think it's only 1 person.

For the last 4 or 5 games, I've actually been commenting on Allen's improvement.

& I've never said Kj is perfect.

I don't agree with those who say he doesn't have speed to stay with receivers on the deep routes... I think that's what you said. He's got the speed... he has no make-up speed, if he's beat, it's over. He has poor ball skills. But speed, he's got enough speed to play the position.
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yes he has the speed, but if he losses the WR for 1 second and the WR gets behind him he is toast, most CBs can kick it into another gear if they get beat deep, but KJ cant. To me that is a downfall, thats why i think KJ would be a really really good NFL safety.
 
Well..haven't really attacked ALlen since the Dolphins game. But, I have been critical of Jjoe lately. I still don't get why he gets a free pass. Kjax has been consistent most of the season and gave up a few plays, then the boards completely blows up. I've probably seen JJoe give up more plays then I have seen Kjax.
 
I don't know if there is any merit to this, but to me it seems like KJ plays well when it's not a goal line situation like it was last week against the Colts. He seems to make more plays in the middle of the field. I think that's where I would use him more instead of goal line defense. He's a good tackler but I think Jason Allen should be playing more in those red zone situations.
 
I find myself wondering if we take KJ in a reality where we have a real DC and not Frank Bush pretending to be a DC.
 
Kareem hasn't been terrible. If it was up to me though wed be adding another talented corner to the mix this off season though. He's not playing all the snaps so its hard to get a true grasp on him as a full time player. Limits his chances for mistakes and limits his chances to make plays. Allen may be gone this off season if texans don't want to make a bigger commitment to him. Personally I don't feel comfortable just handing the full time job to kj. I expect texans to take a corner in the draft with the talent to challenge kj, harris, carmichael. Mccain is not a full time starter so I didn't include him. Maybe mcmannis wakes up but I doubt it.
 
Rey said:
Kareem hasn't been terrible. If it was up to me though wed be adding another talented corner to the mix this off season though. He's not playing all the snaps so its hard to get a true grasp on him as a full time player. Limits his chances for mistakes and limits his chances to make plays. Allen may be gone this off season if texans don't want to make a bigger commitment to him. Personally I don't feel comfortable just handing the full time job to kj. I expect texans to take a corner in the draft with the talent to challenge kj, harris, carmichael. Mccain is not a full time starter so I didn't include him. Maybe mcmannis wakes up but I doubt it.
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I might play around in FA, see what we can get. Maybe take another flyer. But I think Harris was still a good pick & if it weren't for Kj & Allen showing improvement, he'd already be on the field.

I don't think we'll be keeping Allen next year either, but if Kj is splitting time with Harris then something is definitely not right... with Kj or the coaching staff.

We've probably seen the last of McMannis. Harris & McCain will probably be fighting for the nickel spot.
 
thunderkyss said:
I might play around in FA, see what we can get. Maybe take another flyer. But I think Harris was still a good pick & if it weren't for Kj & Allen showing improvement, he'd already be on the field.

I don't think we'll be keeping Allen next year either, but if Kj is splitting time with Harris then something is definitely not right... with Kj or the coaching staff.

We've probably seen the last of McMannis. Harris & McCain will probably be fighting for the nickel spot.
Click to expand...

I think they will keep Allen, he wont be a big commodity on the FA market and we can keep him here cheap. He is solid depth and can jump in and start IF needed.
 
leebigeztx said:
76texan, if u read my post, I said the db play hands and or the helmet. The really good wrs won't show u either until the ball is right there. Reggie wayne never gives the db any indication where the ball is until late. On a fade, as soon as he is turning towards the qb, the db should've be turning to locate the ball. I've watched wayne enough and we can back to that catch he had in the corner vs the texans a few yrs ago. He catches the fade at a high point, with his hands away from the body. The chance kareem would've had was to turn and jump. In that situation, how many routes could wayne run?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-0AYVDboA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I believe my eyes more than your quotes. He did 0 right on that play. You like videos so much, chew on this one.
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Leebig, if you read my posts carefully, the only thing I disagree with you was the part about the DB turning (back) toward the QB to locate the ball.

In one of the link I provided, a coach had implied that it would (nice) if the DB can do that; however, there are many times he cannot afford to.

In that case (which is this one), the CB plays the ear lobe (the helmet) and/or the eyes of the receiver.
They give clue to where the ball would arrive.

The hands can be deceptive, as in this case, where Wayne started by extending his arms forward (hinting of a low ball) but then brought the hands up to catch the ball at the high point.

At any rate, my main contention was that the CB should only turn back to look for the ball only he's in a very good position (which is very rare playing man on an island near the goal line).

The next point that I contend was that Jackson played the technique (hand in the pocket) correctly.
I will revisit it when I pull up your next quote.
But first let me recap a whole bunch of plays I reviewed this week around the league in the red zone.
 
First let me recap that last play, the TD to Wayne:

Ball just inside the 2;
Wayne split just outside the numbers.
KJ played about 2 yards off; outside leverage.

Your link no longer works, but I found another one here:

http://sportshl.com/football/Wayne_s_in_for_the_TD/1117337

I hope people can see the point I wanted to make; that KJ played the ear lobe and the eyes, then reach his hand in between Wayne's to try to rip off the pocket.
He didn't get to the ball, and that was his failure, but he did compete very well.

If need to, I can take screen shots to show that his left hand was very close to Wayne's face mask; it wasn't that far off from the ball.
Wayne was able to turn and shield the ball away just enough to complete the catch.
 
leebigeztx said:
I'm sorry, but I wanted to see the technique jackson was playing.

1. He didn't get a jam on wayne
2. He didn't recognize the route
3. When wayne turned to the qb, he didn't turn around.
4. When wayne jumped, he didn't jumped. Instead, he stayed down and measured waynes johnson.
Click to expand...

3. Along with the other posts, I will now show many plays that I've reviewed to counter these points about technique (keeping in mind that #3 is the main contention).

In none of the plays that I'm about to mention show a CB with any real chance of turning around when the receiver turns to the QB.

1. In very few instances that we find a CB trying the jam, all failed.
IMO, I don't think it's a good idea to jam near the goal line in man coverage.
(It makes sense in zone.) In man coverage, the receiver can work off the jam to create separation (he doesn't need much).

2. I disagree that Jackson didn't recognize the route; he played the receiver better than most, if not all the CBs (shortly, I will be bringing up all the plays near the goal line in the games I've reviewed so far.)

There's the fade toward the side line and the fade forward into the corner that the CB had to contend with (after he had made sure that he doesn't get beat on a slant or any inside route; and the whirl route). There's also the possibility that the receiver would run down the side line but then whirl back to the inside along the base line. (There's one example that will follow, in the Cowboys game where Jenkins gave up a TD. This one shows that turning back to look at the ball can get a CB beat.)

4. It's not always a good idea to try to jump, IMO.
The main thing is for the CB to play through the pocket.
He can always wait for the receiver to come down with the ball and pry it out.
A CB, especially a short one, is not going to outjump the receiver.
I'm not going to contest this point, however, except for the idea that if the CB wants to jump, he also needs to be in an excellent position to do so.
 
OK, here are some of my findings:

The Packers vs the Bears have some very good examples.

Fist qtr

Ball at CHI 2 (10:29) (Shotgun) 12-A.Rodgers pass short left to 88-J.Finley for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Rodgers-finds-Finley-in-the-end-zone/6426b0e9-d50c-4353-92a3-4becf33ee96e

Here, the TE split wide about 4-5 yards near the side line.
The LB played outside technqiue to take away the fade.
He was about 3 yards away from the TE;
No jamming.
With a quick double move, the TE got enough separation for a quick slant before the inisde LB can arrive.

A CB like Jackson also has to worry about this route, especially that he's on an island and cannot expect help from a LB or a safety.
 
3rd qtr

2-7-CHI 7 (1:57) 12-A.Rodgers pass short left to 89-J.Jones for 7 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/James-Jones-catches-2nd-TD/90da62c1-19d5-426c-94c8-6c8d5c45ec56

Receiver Jones split just outside the number.
CB played about 4 yards away, with outside leverage.

There were Safety and LB help in the middle.
Again, no jamming.

Fade route;
CB was nowhere near to be able to get into the pocket of the receiver.

Most similar play (but with inside help from LB and safety while KJ had no help.)
 
This has nothing to do with defending in the red zone.
I've still been following McCourty's continous struggle in his soph year as Belichik treats him as a regular CB without babysitting (as he was in his rookie year.)

Dolphins vs Pats week 16

McCourty gave up a 37yd pass that could have been a long TD if the QB had thrown the ball to the receiver in stride.

....

He then gave up a 49 yd pass.

...

On another play, this one from the Pats 44 yd line, the QB underthrew a ball near the goal line, McCourty intercepted the ball.
Watch to see if you agree that McCourty had been beaten but the QB put up a floater that was way short.
The WR Hartline had at least two yards on McCourty (per the announcer).

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8255f2f8/McCourty-INT

.....

On an all-out blitz, McCourty was left on an island and was burned by Marshall for 41.
 
3-1-NE 1 (6:36) 8-M.Moore pass short left to 31-C.Clay for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8255d80a/Clay-TD-catch

On this pass play to the FB (who lined up near the LOS), neither CB put on a jam.

McCourty played a little less than 2 yards from the receiver; the other CB a hair further.

This play was only to demonstrate that the jam is not a requirement for a CB.
To say that somehow Jackson was terrible in his technique because he didn't jam simply does'nt make sense to me.
 
Giants vs Jets week 16

3-2-NYJ 2 (11:59) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete short middle to 88-H.Nicks (24-D.Revis).

Ball just outside the 2.
Receiver Nicks lined up about 2-3 yards outside the numbers on the right of the formation.

Revis played almost 3 yards off him, never jammed.
He concentrated on the receiver, never looked into the backfield.

On the quick slant, Revis mirrored and followed Nicks.
Since the receiver was between him and the ball, it was very difficult for him to see the ball.

The only thing he can tell when he turned to follow Nicks is that Eli was about to throw the slant.
He can't tell exactly where the ball is going to be when it arrives.

As the WR caught the ball, Revis reach around with his left arm to pull on Nicks left arm, seperating him from the ball.
A throw more to the inside where Nicks can fully extend for the ball or lunge for it would have been hard to defend.
As it was, Revis made a great play.

The keys here are (1) Revis never jammed the receiver, (2) he played the receiver's eyes and helmet, and (3) since he couldn't reach into the pocket, he pulled on the arm of the receiver.
He didn't look to locate the ball (because he can't); he located the ball by staying close to the receiver, reads thru the helmet, and guessed where the ball is as the receiver extended his arms to catch it.
 
These plays continue to show that jamming is not in the card in many situations neat the goal line.

4th Qtr

1-8-NYG 8 (9:36) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 6-M.Sanchez pass incomplete short right to 81-D.Keller.

On this play, the X receiver (on the right of the formation) split about 3 yards outside the number.

The LCB #23 Webster played inside leverage and didn't jam.
He simply back-pedaled and turned to follow the receiver on an outside release.
The play didn't come to him, however.

......

2-8-NYG 8 (9:35) (Shotgun) 6-M.Sanchez pass short left to 10-S.Holmes to NYG 1 for 7 yards (23-C.Webster).

On this play, the X receiver (again, on the right of the formation) split a couple of yards outside the number.

The LCB #26 played inside leverage and didn't jam either.
He simply turned and run with the receiver on an inside release.
(There was a safety blitz but the LB dropped back to help underneath in the hook/curl area.)
The play didn't come to his side.

3-1-NYG 1 (9:35) 6-M.Sanchez FUMBLES (Aborted) at NYG 1, RECOVERED by NYG-57-J.Williams at NYG 0. Touchback.
 
Cowboys vs Eagles

2nd Qtr

2-5-DAL 5 (:18) 7-M.Vick pass incomplete short left to 10-D.Jackson [94-D.Ware]. Pass thrown out of the left corner of the end zone.

Check to see how the Cowboys protected Jenkins in the redzone (almost a triple team).
The receiver D. Jackson lined up about a yard outside the numbers and a couple of yards behind the LOS.
The RCB Jenkins was about 3 yards away from the receiver, in the shuffle, playing outside leverage.

(sorry, there was no video available, but I can provide screen shots if anybody is interested.)
....


3-5-DAL 5 (:10) 7-M.Vick pass short middle to 18-J.Maclin for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Pass complete back of the end zone on a slant.

The Cowboys tried a double team here and it still failed (or at least the CB Jenkins thought that he would get help in the middle.)

Again, no jam.
And this one also shows a different route that the receiver can run.


http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/multimedia/videos/Maclin-5-yard-TD-Catch/88d8b5dc-5615-4732-b1ad-352c1e0fb8df

Jenkins was in the shuffle and gave up a free inside release.

Against a CB who plays head-up like Jackson, the receiver can get an outside release, ran along the side line and turned back inside along the base line just the same.

This is where I don't think turning around to look for the ball is a great idea (unless the CB is in excellent position where he can "feel" the receiver and pin him really close to the side line for example.)
 
Same game.

1-4-PHI 4 (:12) (Shotgun) 7-S.McGee pass short right to 19-M.Austin for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Pass complete on Square Out.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8256377a/Austin-prevents-the-shutout

The receiver Austin was in the slot, covered by the nickel #21 Hansen.

Hansen played bump and run as Austin lined up closest to the LOS.

A quick jam gave Austin the natural separation for the square out.
Hansen never had a chance at locating the ball even if he wanted to.
.....

On this play, Asomugha was covering the Z receiver #81 Robinson on the other side of the field.

Robinson lined up on the inside of the numbers.

Asomugha was right on the LOS (less than 2 yards off the receiver) but never jammed as Robinson ran a slant.
 
76Texan said:
First let me recap that last play, the TD to Wayne:

Ball just inside the 2;
Wayne split just outside the numbers.
KJ played about 2 yards off; outside leverage.

Your link no longer works, but I found another one here:

http://sportshl.com/football/Wayne_s_in_for_the_TD/1117337

I hope people can see the point I wanted to make; that KJ played the ear lobe and the eyes, then reach his hand in between Wayne's to try to rip off the pocket.
He didn't get to the ball, and that was his failure, but he did compete very well.

If need to, I can take screen shots to show that his left hand was very close to Wayne's face mask; it wasn't that far off from the ball.
Wayne was able to turn and shield the ball away just enough to complete the catch.
Click to expand...

I do appreciate your takes. I do understand & like to learn all the techniques & what not.

But the point here, is that Kj had an opportunity to make a play & he failed. When the ball is in the air, more often than not, he fails to make the play.

So regardless if he played it correctly (which I think he didn't. Man to man with Reggie Wayne with that much space in the end zone, there is no way Wayne should have got off the line as clean as he did. I'd much rather take a PI, than to give up the fade)..... there was a moment when he was called on to make a play & he didn't.
 
Originally Posted by 76Texan
4. It's not always a good idea to try to jump, IMO.
The main thing is for the CB to play through the pocket.
He can always wait for the receiver to come down with the ball and pry it out.
A CB, especially a short one, is not going to outjump the receiver.
I'm not going to contest this point, however, except for the idea that if the CB wants to jump, he also needs to be in an excellent position to do so.

mussop said:
That's where I stopped reading. :spit:
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Well, show me all the fade routes where you see a CB play man-up and jump then you can laugh all you want.

I will try to find some with the same situation.
So far, I haven't.
But on one of the play I've shown, the CB played off-man and couldn't even get to the spot, let alone trying to jump.

Here it is again:

http://www.packers.com/media-center/...8-6c8d5c45ec56

Here's another one:

http://prod.www.chargers.clubs.nfl.com/media-vault/videos/Floyd-11-yard-TD-catch/219be378-042e-42e7-900e-6475f56eefdc

See how poorly the CB played the fade?

I know I have more.
 
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thunderkyss said:
I do appreciate your takes. I do understand & like to learn all the techniques & what not.

But the point here, is that Kj had an opportunity to make a play & he failed. When the ball is in the air, more often than not, he fails to make the play.

So regardless if he played it correctly (which I think he didn't. Man to man with Reggie Wayne with that much space in the end zone, there is no way Wayne should have got off the line as clean as he did. I'd much rather take a PI, than to give up the fade)..... there was a moment when he was called on to make a play & he didn't.
Click to expand...

I never denied the fact Jackson didn't make the play.
I accepted that from the very beginning.

I'm only disagreeing with leebig about techniques.

I've shown you many of the plays I've seen from week 16 (I didn't skip any redzone plays - near the ten yard line or closer - in those games).
The vast majority of them were without the CB jamming the receiver.

As far as PI, I thought about it, but I'm not sure.
A PI would have given them the ball on the one yard line where they can run the ball with about 21-22 secs to go.
Maybe he should have gone for the PI, but perhaps he thought he had a good chance at the ball, and then it was too late.

On a side note, I listened to Lance Z just briefly yesterday.
I didn't catch the name of the guy who was on air with him.
At any rate, they were talking about how good the front 7 has been this year.
Lance Z mentioned that his dad (the O-line coach) said he'd never seen a front seven that play with such intensity on every play.

Then they talked a little about those guys and the reason why they are so good.
The emergence of JJ Watt and Barwin and Reed.
But also because of the improvement in the secondary.

And guess what, the other guy said "somebody with coach tapes" told him about the good play of a certain CB that helps the play of the front seven.
Guess whose name he mentioned.
Kareem Jackson.
 
Here are some more plays that show the CBs playing without jamming:

Bengals vs Cards

1st qtr

2-7-ARI 14 (6:59) (Shotgun) 14-A.Dalton pass short left to 89-J.Simpson to ARI 11 for 3 yards (31-R.Marshall).
Timeout #1 by CIN at 06:31.

3-4-ARI 11 (6:31) (Shotgun) 14-A.Dalton pass short left to 84-J.Gresham for 11 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Two consecutive plays with LCB Peterson play man but did not jam the receiver.
Passes were thrown to the other side on both occasion.

There was another occasion in the red zone where the CB didn't jam the receiver while playing on-man (near the LOS).
...

There was only one occasion when a CB tried to jam Fitz and gave up quick seperation (Fitz was wide open).
The QB threw the TD to another receiver J. King (who was also wide open).

1-2-CIN 2 (7:45) 19-J.Skelton pass short middle to 87-J.King for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/09000d5d825622bc/QB-Skelton-to-TE-King-2-yd-pass-TD
 
76Texan said:
And guess what, the other guy said "somebody with coach tapes" told him about the good play of a certain CB that helps the play of the front seven.
Guess whose name he mentioned.
Kareem Jackson.
Click to expand...


I don't doubt that. His coverage has been pretty solid, especially in man situations. I watched a bit of the Carolina game last night & Cam had to make a play several times, because he coverage was so good. Not just Kareem, but Kj was definitely doing some good that game.
 
76Texan said:
Here are some more plays that show the CBs playing without jamming:
Click to expand...

I've got to see it. I'm not saying jamming is a necessity, but if I were as talented as Kj, playing that spot in that game, with less than 20(some)
seconds on the clock. JJ Watt pissed off... With a big patch of green behind me & towards the flag, I'm not giving up the fade, that is the most difficult route to cover (imo), he had no help out there.

We're already on the one yard line, I've got 5 yards to make Reggie work.

If I get a PI, no harm, no foul...... I'm already on the 1 a second or two is off the clock & maybe the next defensive/offensive call wouldn't put me in such a bad spot.
 
thunderkyss said:
I've got to see it. I'm not saying jamming is a necessity, but if I were as talented as Kj, playing that spot in that game, with less than 20(some)
seconds on the clock. JJ Watt pissed off... With a big patch of green behind me & towards the flag, I'm not giving up the fade, that is the most difficult route to cover (imo), he had no help out there.

We're already on the one yard line, I've got 5 yards to make Reggie work.

If I get a PI, no harm, no foul...... I'm already on the 1 a second or two is off the clock & maybe the next defensive/offensive call wouldn't put me in such a bad spot.
Click to expand...

We're going off-tangent here, but I think there's a big difference between the one yard line and the two yard line.

On the other point, what I saw was that the CBs jam more often when they are in zone coverage near the goal line.
Basically, what leebig said "that Jackson didn't play it right by not jamming" was not proven - or even disproved), because more often than not, the CBs didn't jam.
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't doubt that. His coverage has been pretty solid, especially in man situations. I watched a bit of the Carolina game last night & Cam had to make a play several times, because he coverage was so good. Not just Kareem, but Kj was definitely doing some good that game.
Click to expand...

Let's not forget, LanceZ was among those who thought Jason Allen should start (at the beginning of the season) due to his ball skill (from last season).
 
76Texan said:
Here it is again:

http://www.packers.com/media-center/...8-6c8d5c45ec56

Here's another one:

http://prod.www.chargers.clubs.nfl.com/media-vault/videos/Floyd-11-yard-TD-catch/219be378-042e-42e7-900e-6475f56eefdc

See how poorly the CB played the fade?

I know I have more.
Click to expand...

Even the Packers don't know what the hell you're talking about!!

First Link
generic_notfound.jpg


Second Link is a bad example for anything because homeboy stumbles.
 
76Texan said:
We're going off-tangent here, but I think there's a big difference between the one yard line and the two yard line.
Click to expand...
According to the play by play we were already on the 1.

big difference between the 1 & the .5 yard line...... I agree.

76Texan said:
On the other point, what I saw was that the CBs jam more often when they are in zone coverage near the goal line.
Basically, what leebig said "that Jackson didn't play it right by not jamming" was not proven - or even disproved), because more often than not, the CBs didn't jam.
Click to expand...

If I've got a front 7 like ours & a lot of space behind me, I'm jamming more often than not.
 
Skimming over the 23 pages of posts, are we really debating whether he is a good corner? The answer is no... god no.. hell no. Anyone that tries to debate his coverage skills is pulling a skip bayless and likes to argue by playing devils advocate.

Opposing qbs have a 60% completion rate and a 16 yard average. We are too good to have one guy "learn" on the field. A solid vet corner is our biggest FA need this offseason.
 
thunderkyss said:
According to the play by play we were already on the 1.

big difference between the 1 & the .5 yard line...... I agree.
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18" v. 36".... Yeah, "That's we she said". ;)

In any event, (and you & most people know this) it could be the one inch line, but technically its still considered one yard.
 
76 texan, I don't mean to be rude, but when I posted the video of jackson, u go on a tangent about what another team and players do. I'm not talking about players on other teams, I'm talkng about jackson against wayne at the end of the colts game, that's it. Yes, I've seen cbs turn and look on a fade and intercept the pass because they played the show of the wr. I know u will continue to post useless videos of another team, but that has nothing to do with jackson and his lack of ball skills and route recognition.
 
leebigeztx said:
76 texan, I don't mean to be rude, but when I posted the video of jackson, u go on a tangent about what another team and players do. I'm not talking about players on other teams, I'm talkng about jackson against wayne at the end of the colts game, that's it. Yes, I've seen cbs turn and look on a fade and intercept the pass because they played the show of the wr. I know u will continue to post useless videos of another team, but that has nothing to do with jackson and his lack of ball skills and route recognition.
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Thats his crutch, he has always done that. When KJ does good, he compares him to the good ones, and when he does bad he blames it on everyone but KJ. I have gotten used to it, and it has actually become quite amusing.
 
EllisUnit said:
Thats his crutch, he has always done that. When KJ does good, he compares him to the good ones, and when he does bad he blames it on everyone but KJ. I have gotten used to it, and it has actually become quite amusing.
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Ellis... do you not have unrealistic expectations though? CB/QB are the two hardest positions to come into the NFL with, I say we have to give him 3-4 years and see what we end up with.
 
silvrhand said:
Ellis... do you not have unrealistic expectations though? CB/QB are the two hardest positions to come into the NFL with, I say we have to give him 3-4 years and see what we end up with.
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As much as I criticize KJ it would be disingenuous for me or anyone to say that he hasn't had marked improvement. That said, I agree with you in developing over the next season or two...


G*D, that pained me to say that. :whew
 
This is exactly the type of mistake NFL teams struggle to avoid come draft day (drafting for need over value) that can lead to years of failed expectations on or off the field. The Texans were determined hell or high water they we're going to take a CB in the first round of the 2010 draft period. They took the safest possible player from a sound football program with measureables they required for position.

Now Kareem is a player in this league, who will always have shortcomings but will learn to mask or compensate for them as he grows with experience while evolving in system. His work ethic, size & physical nature will provide useful down the road & then, I'm hoping, for a similar discussion like one about Duane Brown.
 
silvrhand said:
Ellis... do you not have unrealistic expectations though? CB/QB are the two hardest positions to come into the NFL with, I say we have to give him 3-4 years and see what we end up with.
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In college, he was not the kind of corner who intercepted the ball, or made big plays. He still provided solid coverage & played well at the line.

If you watch him now, it's the same thing. His ball skills are week. He doesn't appear to have "make-up" speed. His instincts (I think) are pretty good. He plays well at the line & this year I don't think he's been beat at the line (& when I say that, I mean if the receiver wants to go somewhere Kj doesn't want him to go, the receiver will either not get his way or they have to fight quite a bit to get there).

So right off the bat, when someone "rags" on Kj, the first thing I'm thinking is that he is not the type of CB that they are looking for. I don't think it's unrealistic for someone to expect Kj to do some of the things "their" type of CB do, like play the ball. Kj is pretty bad at playing the ball. Bad in the way that he may have never been taught to play the ball. Which as 76 has pointed out several times, it's completely plausible that he wasn't, but can still be considered a good CB......

...in college. I think at this level, for Kareem to be considered an elite CB, he's going to have to learn to play the ball. He can be a very good corner playing solid coverage, but in this league he to get better at stopping receivers from catching the ball.

I think he does a very good job of covering the receiver causing the QB to throw the ball somewhere else. But if he is ever beat, or if the QB decides to "force" it, Kj does very little to stop the ball from being caught.

The Atlanta game, we had a lengthy discussion about that final TD Julio dropped. Sure, I think Kj's presence messed with Julio's mind enough that the ball was dropped. But it was the same situation with Reggie Wayne in the endzone of the Indy game. Reggie Wayne, a better receiver caught that ball, regardless how hard Kj "touched" his elbow.

There was another play in that Indy game where DanO tried to force the ball to Wayne. Kj & Reggie were handfighting since the minute they left the line, so Wayne was definitely not open...... maybe DanO was trying to get a PI, but I doubt it...... it's DanO. So anyway, Wayne turns to catch the ball & Kj reaches around to knock it down.

That's what a good corner is supposed to do right? The problem here, is that Kj totally missed the ball. No Wayne did not catch it, he was all twisted up with Kj.... it was good effort, but Kj missed the ball. He's got to be able to get a hand on the ball (the way Quin does) if he's going to live up to his draft status.... if you ask me.

So, while I think EllisUnit is expecting Kj to be a type of CB he will never be, I don't think his expectations are too far out of whack.
 
HYe doesn't appear ti be falling down as much this yr. So I guess that's progress.

Even though he's still giving up game winning/almost winning touchdowns. Julio Jones/Wayne
 
thunderkyss said:
In college, he was not the kind of corner who intercepted the ball, or made big plays. He still provided solid coverage & played well at the line.

If you watch him now, it's the same thing. His ball skills are week. He doesn't appear to have "make-up" speed. His instincts (I think) are pretty good. He plays well at the line & this year I don't think he's been beat at the line (& when I say that, I mean if the receiver wants to go somewhere Kj doesn't want him to go, the receiver will either not get his way or they have to fight quite a bit to get there).

So right off the bat, when someone "rags" on Kj, the first thing I'm thinking is that he is not the type of CB that they are looking for. I don't think it's unrealistic for someone to expect Kj to do some of the things "their" type of CB do, like play the ball. Kj is pretty bad at playing the ball. Bad in the way that he may have never been taught to play the ball. Which as 76 has pointed out several times, it's completely plausible that he wasn't, but can still be considered a good CB......

...in college. I think at this level, for Kareem to be considered an elite CB, he's going to have to learn to play the ball. He can be a very good corner playing solid coverage, but in this league he to get better at stopping receivers from catching the ball.

I think he does a very good job of covering the receiver causing the QB to throw the ball somewhere else. But if he is ever beat, or if the QB decides to "force" it, Kj does very little to stop the ball from being caught.

The Atlanta game, we had a lengthy discussion about that final TD Julio dropped. Sure, I think Kj's presence messed with Julio's mind enough that the ball was dropped. But it was the same situation with Reggie Wayne in the endzone of the Indy game. Reggie Wayne, a better receiver caught that ball, regardless how hard Kj "touched" his elbow.

There was another play in that Indy game where DanO tried to force the ball to Wayne. Kj & Reggie were handfighting since the minute they left the line, so Wayne was definitely not open...... maybe DanO was trying to get a PI, but I doubt it...... it's DanO. So anyway, Wayne turns to catch the ball & Kj reaches around to knock it down.

That's what a good corner is supposed to do right? The problem here, is that Kj totally missed the ball. No Wayne did not catch it, he was all twisted up with Kj.... it was good effort, but Kj missed the ball. He's got to be able to get a hand on the ball (the way Quin does) if he's going to live up to his draft status.... if you ask me.

So, while I think EllisUnit is expecting Kj to be a type of CB he will never be, I don't think his expectations are too far out of whack.
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i do not expect him to be a shut down CB, all i want to see his him play the ball better, like you said he doesnt have good ball skills. and has no make up speed. And i can live with that and, as long as he is doing what he can.

I think KJ has greatly improved this year, i think the front 7 has helped KJ a lot this year as well. I just hate to hear B.S excuses/assumptions by certain people, everytime he messes up. He needs to take responsibilty every time he messes up, it will make him better in the long run IMO.
 
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