State of the O-line

[Shishkabob]

It's pretty clear that with Kelemte's knee injury he is a liability in the run game. His first 2 games he was very good in the run game(poor in pass pro), but since he injured his knee warming up he no longer seems to have his power, or his quickness out on pulls. Incredibly problematic when it seems like neither Martin nor Mancz are very strong centers so we are getting 0 push up the middle. If it continues I'd be inclined to make a change during the bye

 

[zshawn10]

Lance Zierlein

✔@LanceZierlein
https://twitter.com/LanceZierlein/status/1049668795948822528


I know everyone is eager to kill the Texans offensive line at all times, but it is worth noting that against the Cowboys, Next Gen stats says Deshaun Watson was pressured on just 20.7% of his dropbacks which was the lowest number of his career. They did that vs. a good def front

9:31 AM - Oct 9, 2018

 

[Shishkabob]

Davenport vs Lawrence. Davenport’s arm length is a huge difference here. Able to slow Lawrence and make him lose his balance. pic.twitter.com/mi6Chqaclh

— patrick (@PatDStat) October 9, 2018

 

[badboy]

Davenport vs Lawrence. Davenport’s arm length is a huge difference here. Able to slow Lawrence and make him lose his balance. pic.twitter.com/mi6Chqaclh

— patrick (@PatDStat) October 9, 2018

this supports the info I've provided about D in college. Yes he had and will have growing pains but he needs to be at LT. Lamm has surprised me especially with shoulder injury. Rankin should work his way into RT with Lamm a possibility at LG. No one has said anything about Fulton. A healthy D'Onte Foreman a good draft pick by Gaine would be doing well against teams so far with O'line. Also this line still has not had any time together at positions. I'd like to see how it does if guys could play together a couple games.

 

[Shishkabob]

this supports the info I've provided about D in college. Yes he had and will have growing pains but he needs to be at LT. Lamm has surprised me especially with shoulder injury. Rankin should work his way into RT with Lamm a possibility at LG. No one has said anything about Fulton. A healthy D'Onte Foreman a good draft pick by Gaine would be doing well against teams so far with O'line. Also this line still has not had any time together at positions. I'd like to see how it does if guys could play together a couple games.

I'm actually thinking more of the opposite with Lamm, and Rankin. Leave Lamm at RT for this season, maybe try to transition Rankin to the inside where a lot projected him to play do to his shorter arms, and slower feet. I think he has the power to play LG at a fairly high level

 

[badboy]

I'm actually thinking more of the opposite with Lamm, and Rankin. Leave Lamm at RT for this season, maybe try to transition Rankin to the inside where a lot projected him to play do to his shorter arms, and slower feet. I think he has the power to play LG at a fairly high level

Understand your POV but IMO I want players with as much experience and skills to play at position needed. If Lamm is better play him but Rankin has better skills to play right tackle, Lamm's NFL experience may keep him starting but Rankin should pass him sooner rather than later.

 

[Shishkabob]

Understand your POV but IMO I want players with as much experience and skills to play at position needed. If Lamm is better play him but Rankin has better skills to play right tackle, Lamm's NFL experience may keep him starting but Rankin should pass him sooner rather than later.

I guess I'm just thinking more towards the future, maybe Rankin is the future RT idk, but I think he can be the future LG. I know Lamm won't be the RT of the future, but he has been serviceable these past 2 games, so I'm fine with him staying there as long as he continues to play that way. Sign or draft someone to replace him this off season of course, and then you can relegate him back to swing tackle duty or whatever

 

[badboy]

I guess I'm just thinking more towards the future, maybe Rankin is the future RT idk, but I think he can be the future LG. I know Lamm won't be the RT of the future, but he has been serviceable these past 2 games, so I'm fine with him staying there as long as he continues to play that way. Sign or draft someone to replace him this off season of course, and then you can relegate him back to swing tackle duty or whatever

It is quite possible Rankin as LG (kelemete knee) with Fulton and Lamm at RT could be productive. I'm looking forward to Friday's injury/practice report.

 

[zshawn10]

Locked on Texans@lockedontexans
https://twitter.com/lockedontexans/status/1050027267303321600

#Texans '18 @PFF Stats
---
Among Guards w/ 200+ snaps, Zach Fulton has 4th best pass blocking grade in NFL
Among Centers w/ 200+ snaps, Nick Martin has 10th best pass blocking grade in NFL
Among Tackles w/ 200+ snaps, Julién Davenport has 6th best run blocking grade in NFL

9:16 AM - Oct 10, 2018

 

[Shishkabob]

- The offensive line turned in one of their better performances of the season. Moving Davenport back to left tackle, starting Lamm at right tackle and relegating Rankin to the bench was a wise move. Prior to this game, Rankin had 19 QB hurries (67th), 6 QB hits (T-66th) and 48.8 grade (63rd). Davenport turned in a strong performance in the run game (78.9) but a poor performance in the passing game (43.8). Fulton had a polar opposite game, posting a pass-blocking grade of 83.0 and a run-blocking grade of 42.6. Lamm came away with the highest overall grade of 64.9.

 

[badboy]

I'm cool with Rankin learning now and not pounding while doing so. He still has skills but needs some time adjust NFL. Hopefully injury to others will not force him to start. He should be here for long time.

 

[badboy]

Regardless how oline improves, hoping Jonah Williams falls to Texans. Adding tackles, corners, a QB and a pass rushing OLB each draft is needed.

 

[IDEXAN]

I'm cool with Rankin learning now and not pounding while doing so. He still has skills but needs some time adjust NFL. Hopefully injury to others will not force him to start. He should be here for long time.

Do you think he can play OT in this league Badboy or do you see him on the inside at guard over the longer term ?

 

[badboy]

Rankin IMO is definitely OT material if given time. Not a project! He has size to go with skills. If we were to get Jonah I'd probably put Rankin at LG.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Flowers is now a Jag.

 

[Rich Schmidt]

hope he plays when we play them in 2 weeks

 

[IDEXAN]

Flowers is now a Jag.

If Flowers is half as bad as lots of folk in these parts claim, then looks like the Jags are scrambling more frantically than we are for help at that OT position.
So anyway Robinson going on IR obviously really set them back.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

If Flowers is half as bad as lots of folk in these parts claim, then looks like the Jags are scrambling more frantically than we are for help at that OT position.
So anyway Robinson going on IR obviously really set them back.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/12/ereck-flowers-pulled-off-scrap-heap-by-familiar-face/

Familiar...

 

[Earl34]

Flowers is now a Jag.

Initially when I read your post, I was thinking JAG. Just another guy. I think he was drafted while Coughlin was with the Giants, so it makes sense.

 

[Uncle Rico]

104 offensive linemen with at least 100 snaps so far this season have graded out higher than Nick Martin – the Texans’ highest-graded offensive lineman.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-week-5-nfl-offensive-line-rankings

 

[IDEXAN]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-week-5-nfl-offensive-line-rankings

I dunno but don't you want to compare apples to apples and not oranges ? On a quick glance I see Martin grading higher than other centers.

 

[Uncle Rico]

I dunno but don't you want to compare apples to apples and not oranges ? On a quick glance I see Martin grading higher than other centers.

Hey if you want to put a bunch of hot sauce on a turd sandwich and call it edible be my guest.

 

[Shishkabob]

I dunno but don't you want to compare apples to apples and not oranges ? On a quick glance I see Martin grading higher than other centers.

Martin has been bad, he is decent some times in pass pro, but very weak in run blocking, and gets over matched easily by good Dts/NTs.

I think it was after the blocked punt, or muffed punt but we had the ball on the 21, and Martin killed both plays on 1st and 2nd down. First one stepped on Watson's foot, leading to an off target throw to Nuk which screwed up the timing on the trick play, then the next play he skipped the ball back to Watson and screwed up the timing of the run. I was hoping Martin would take that next step this year, but it appears he has regressed

 

[Texansballer74]

Wow that oline was not prepared for the Bills blitz schemes. There were plenty of film out there showing how the Bills defense operates. Every team they have played thus far got a heavy dosage of blitz from that defense. Bill Obrien should have come up with a better game plan. For instance, a few screens might have worked, especially against a very aggressive defense.

 

[JB]

Wow that oline was not prepared for the Bills blitz schemes. There were plenty of film out there showing how the Bills defense operates. Every team they have played thus far got a heavy dosage of blitz from that defense. Bill Obrien should have come up with a better game plan. For instance, a few screens might have worked, especially against a very aggressive defense.

Yeah I was really surprised they didn't run plays designed to slow down the blitz... but have the Texans ever been a good screen team?

 

[Texansballer74]

Yeah I was really surprised they didn't run plays designed to slow down the blitz... but have the Texans ever been a good screen team?

They had some success with it last season during that 6 game ride with Watson. Mainly the wide receiver screen.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Martin has been bad, he is decent some times in pass pro, but very weak in run blocking, and gets over matched easily by good Dts/NTs.

I think it was after the blocked punt, or muffed punt but we had the ball on the 21, and Martin killed both plays on 1st and 2nd down. First one stepped on Watson's foot, leading to an off target throw to Nuk which screwed up the timing on the trick play, then the next play he skipped the ball back to Watson and screwed up the timing of the run. I was hoping Martin would take that next step this year, but it appears he has regressed

This is why I propose the Brian Cushing strength camp .

 

[Shishkabob]

This is why I propose the Brian Cushing strength camp .

He will be strong as long as he doesn't get caught lol

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

PFF HOU Texans‏@PFF_Texans 34m34 minutes ago


#Texans offensive line pass-blocking grades and pressures allowed vs BUF:
Julie'n Davenport: 21.8 (9) - 3 sacks, 3 hits
Senio Kelemete: 76.3 (1)
Nick Martin: 84.3 (0)
Zach Fulton: 71.7 (2)
Kendall Lamm: 61.5 (2)

Watson was faulted with two pressures: one sack and one hurry

*********************************************************************************************

I can believe all the above.............except I have a difficult time accepting Martin's grade as valid.

 

[Marcus]

Wow that oline was not prepared for the Bills blitz schemes. There were plenty of film out there showing how the Bills defense operates. Every team they have played thus far got a heavy dosage of blitz from that defense. Bill Obrien should have come up with a better game plan. For instance, a few screens might have worked, especially against a very aggressive defense.

Now this is the reason why we have a godawful offensive line every damn year. Thinking you can make up for ridiculous lack of talent with scheme. What game plan is going to work when you have the likes of Davenport and Lemm not quick or fast enough to execute the basics.

This is our offensive line every week..

 

[gwallaia]

A trademark of a good offensive line is one that plays "together" as a cohesive unit. Each player know his responsibility and how it affects his teammates on the offensive line.

The offensive linemen for the Texans appear to be doing their own thing. It's every man for himself. Compound that with the fact they do not have the requisite physical abilities or mental aptitude to play at the NFL level equals Deshaun Watson running and ducking for his life on every play.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

A trademark of a good offensive line is one that plays "together" as a cohesive unit. Each player know his responsibility and how it affects his teammates on the offensive line.

The offensive linemen for the Texans appear to be doing their own thing. It's every man for himself. Compound that with the fact they do not have the requisite physical abilities or mental aptitude to play at the NFL level equals Deshaun Watson running and ducking for his life on every play.

In instances like this , I believe they have multiple issues .

You have three teenage sons who take long hot showers and the breaker feeding the bathroom trips . You reset it and everything's fine til they turn on the exhaust fan to get rid off the steam and it trips . You reset the breaker or ground fault and everything is fine until he / they repeat the cycle . You can't fix anything repeating the same thing every day .

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

In instances like this , I believe they have multiple issues .

You have three teenage sons who take long hot showers and the breaker feeding the bathroom trips . You reset it and everything's fine til they turn on the exhaust fan to get rid off the steam and it trips . You reset the breaker or ground fault and everything is fine until he / they repeat the cycle . You can't fix anything repeating the same thing every day .

Yes.
The posters who say talent..correct.
The posters who say coaching..correct
The posters who say a lack of unity...correct
The posters who say scheme...correct
The poster who say lack of veteran presence...correct
The posters who say not helped by an inexperienced QB...correct
The posters who say RBs who don't take full advantage of what's there...correct

It is bunches of stuff and nearly everything that wrong with the OL.

 

[Texansballer74]

Now this is the reason why we have a godawful offensive line every damn year. Thinking you can make up for ridiculous lack of talent with scheme. What game plan is going to work when you have the likes of Davenport and Lemm not quick or fast enough to execute the basics.

This is our offensive line every week..

View attachment 4003

Hurry up offense works. Ex the last drive to tie the game up.

Like I mentioned, screen plays.

Patterns that are designed to get the ball out of the QB hands fast. Those quick hitters will help the offensive linemen and the quarterback out.


The Cowboys front was just as good as the Bill's and that sorry oline held up pretty darn good.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Yes.
The posters who say talent..correct.
The posters who say coaching..correct
The posters who say a lack of unity...correct
The posters who say scheme...correct
The poster who say lack of veteran presence...correct
The posters who say not helped by an inexperienced QB...correct
The posters who say RBs who don't take full advantage of what's there...correct

It is bunches of stuff and nearly everything that wrong with the OL.

Ahh .... the teenage boys taking hour long steam showers is the Texans not making the OL a high priority and when they did pick an OL fairly high , he didn't pan out . Except of course the one they traded away or the two they let walk .

 

[Uncle Rico]

Hurry up offense works. Ex the last drive to tie the game up.

Like I mentioned, screen plays.

Patterns that are designed to get the ball out of the QB hands fast. Those quick hitters will help the offensive linemen and the quarterback out.


The Cowboys front was just as good as the Bill's and that sorry oline held up pretty darn good.

I mean Bobby GrandDragon and Rick Smith liked what Buttchin did in NE and thought that was what they were going to get right? Instead its less creative and more predictable than Koobs on his worst day. Incompetent managers will wreck a business, but since there is no danger in Grandpappy Bob losing any money its like a cruel lab experiement on how much trauma fans can take.

You're absolutely right. Quick passing. Rhythm. No huddle offense. Empty backfield. Multi TE sets .. there are various ways to offset a bad blocking line.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

I mean Bobby GrandDragon and Rick Smith liked what Buttchin did in NE and thought that was what they were going to get right? Instead its less creative and more predictable than Koobs on his worst day. Incompetent managers will wreck a business, but since there is no danger in Grandpappy Bob losing any money its like a cruel lab experiement on how much trauma fans can take.

You're absolutely right. Quick passing. Rhythm. No huddle offense. Empty backfield. Multi TE sets .. there are various ways to offset a bad blocking line.

I think the Texans want to copy a successful team instead of picking a smart up and coming innovative coach . Then they hang on way to long not figuring out that the system had great players . HOF players tend to make you better or Jimmy's and Joe's trump Xs & Os .

 

[Marcus]

Yes.
The posters who say talent..correct.
The posters who say coaching..correct
The posters who say a lack of unity...correct
The posters who say scheme...correct
The poster who say lack of veteran presence...correct
The posters who say not helped by an inexperienced QB...correct
The posters who say RBs who don't take full advantage of what's there...correct

It is bunches of stuff and nearly everything that wrong with the OL.

You forgot something. Something that overrides everything else listed above.

Regardless how oline improves, hoping Jonah Williams falls to Texans. Adding tackles, corners, a QB and a pass rushing OLB each draft is needed.

Every damn year, the same thing gets said. “Well, we need offensive linemen”, “well, we need quarterbacks”, “well we need cornerbacks”, or “well, we need linebackers” blah blah blah Until you put offensive lineman first on the prioriy list above everything else, then there’s really no point in getting anything else.

That offense is so hard to watch, it’s pathetic. It’s not fun at all when instead of looking for Watson to make a big play, you’re looking for that next hit that puts him out for the season. (mercifully)

 

[Corrosion]

You forgot something. Something that overrides everything else listed above.



Every damn year, the same thing gets said. “Well, we need offensive linemen”, “well, we need quarterbacks”, “well we need cornerbacks”, or “well, we need linebackers” blah blah blah Until you put offensive lineman first on the prioriy list above everything else, then there’s really no point in getting anything else.

That offense is so hard to watch, it’s pathetic. It’s not fun at all when instead of looking for Watson to make a big play, you’re looking for that next hit that puts him out for the season. (mercifully)

Top it off with having possibly the most talented top 3 WR's in the league in DHop , FullerV and QT …. along with a dynamic QB in Watson and your offense is absolutely pathetic …. They are as inept a group as the 2002 offense that gave up 76 sacks.

 

[beerlover]

Top it off with having possibly the most talented top 3 WR's in the league in DHop , FullerV and QT …. along with a dynamic QB in Watson and your offense is absolutely pathetic …. They are as inept a group as the 2002 offense that gave up 76 sacks.

They’re the Pitts

 

[Porky]

I posted this in the game day thread, but it's a better fit here -

What I wouldn't give for the Oilers Oline from exactly 30 years ago -
Bruce Davis - Bruce Matthews - Jay Pennison - Mike Munchak - Dean Steinkuhler

That's a crew that could wreck shop. Warren Moon was lucky compared to the **** show they built for Watson. It's embarrassing and heads should roll.

Actually, make that head. Gaine has only been here one offseason and deserves more time to put his stamp on this unit, but so far - not impressed Gaine - not impressed.

 

[Texansballer74]

I mean Bobby GrandDragon and Rick Smith liked what Buttchin did in NE and thought that was what they were going to get right? Instead its less creative and more predictable than Koobs on his worst day. Incompetent managers will wreck a business, but since there is no danger in Grandpappy Bob losing any money its like a cruel lab experiement on how much trauma fans can take.

You're absolutely right. Quick passing. Rhythm. No huddle offense. Empty backfield. Multi TE sets .. there are various ways to offset a bad blocking line.

Exactly but we keep getting Bill Obrien'd. Dude needs to hand over the playcalling duties and just stick to being the HC.

 

[Texansballer74]

I posted this in the game day thread, but it's a better fit here -

What I wouldn't give for the Oilers Oline from exactly 30 years ago -
Bruce Davis - Bruce Matthews - Jay Pennison - Mike Munchak - Dean Steinkuhler

That's a crew that could wreck shop. Warren Moon was lucky compared to the **** show they built for Watson. It's embarrassing and heads should roll.

Actually, make that head. Gaine has only been here one offseason and deserves more time to put his stamp on this unit, but so far - not impressed Gaine - not impressed.

We all should know, he's just an errand boy for Obrien.

 

[Shishkabob]

We all should know, he's just an errand boy for Obrien.

I wouldn't go that far, just because a HC and a GM have a good working relation with one another doesn't mean one is the others errand boy. Gaine learned and grew into this world outside of any O'Brien influence until their few years here together. He has a good background as one of Parcell's protege's.

 

[Texansballer74]

I wouldn't go that far, just because a HC and a GM have a good working relation with one another doesn't mean one is the others errand boy. Gaine learned and grew into this world outside of any O'Brien influence until their few years here together. He has a good background as one of Parcell's protege's.

Yes they have a good relationship from what we've heard. And yes Gaines resume is good. But he is what Smith was to Kubiak. A yes man

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

You forgot something. Something that overrides everything else listed above.



Every damn year, the same thing gets said. “Well, we need offensive linemen”, “well, we need quarterbacks”, “well we need cornerbacks”, or “well, we need linebackers” blah blah blah Until you put offensive lineman first on the prioriy list above everything else, then there’s really no point in getting anything else.

That offense is so hard to watch, it’s pathetic. It’s not fun at all when instead of looking for Watson to make a big play, you’re looking for that next hit that puts him out for the season. (mercifully)

I said all this in the one word "talent." They haven't prioritized offensive line sounds really good, but what does that really mean? I can't speak to how important its been to the Texans, can speak (and have) to the fact the organization has failed in every aspect of putting an OL together. I am not in anyone' head or meeting rooms, but can view the results.

Priority becomes a buzz word on this board generally meaning "did not draft one high enough" or "pay enough money for a free agent." The job of the organization, no matter the position, is to find 5 NFL starting OLmen and 2-3 viable replacement pieces. While yes, drafting dudes really high and paying bunches of money is supposed to give the highest percentage chances of finding those 8 players, the job of the organization is to find those dudes. Early draft, late draft, street free agents, UDFA, trades. talented dudes who got lost in the shuffle, dudes who need to be coached up, dudes too light who need strength training

 

[Shishkabob]

Yes they have a good relationship from what we've heard. And yes Gaines resume is good. But he is what Smith was to Kubiak. A yes man

Do you have any proof? Also funny how Kubiak's "yes man" got Kubiak fired, while he kept his job for another 4 years.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

I said all this in the one word "talent." They haven't prioritized offensive line sounds really good, but what does that really mean? I can't speak to how important its been to the Texans, can speak (and have) to the fact the organization has failed in every aspect of putting an OL together. I am not in anyone' head or meeting rooms, but can view the results.

Priority becomes a buzz word on this board generally meaning "did not draft one high enough" or "pay enough money for a free agent." The job of the organization, no matter the position, is to find 5 NFL starting OLmen and 2-3 viable replacement pieces. While yes, drafting dudes really high and paying bunches of money is supposed to give the highest percentage chances of finding those 8 players, the job of the organization is to find those dudes. Early draft, late draft, street free agents, UDFA, trades. talented dudes who got lost in the shuffle, dudes who need to be coached up, dudes too light who need strength training

I looked at some best OL in the league right now and the Rams have two 2nd round picks and three FA's . The Cowboys have the most draft picks with three 1st , one should've been a first and a second I think . Eagles drafted Johnson and Kelce , Brooks , Wisnieski , and Peters FA . You have an OL when you can kill the clock in 4th quarter and they know you're going to run .

 

[badboy]

You forgot something. Something that overrides everything else listed above.



Every damn year, the same thing gets said. “Well, we need offensive linemen”, “well, we need quarterbacks”, “well we need cornerbacks”, or “well, we need linebackers” blah blah blah Until you put offensive lineman first on the prioriy list above everything else, then there’s really no point in getting anything else.

That offense is so hard to watch, it’s pathetic. It’s not fun at all when instead of looking for Watson to make a big play, you’re looking for that next hit that puts him out for the season. (mercifully)

While I agree with you let's also agree that we now have a QB that we traded up to get pleasing most folks here. While I was surprised Cunningham was there at 2.25 I preferred OT Dion Dawkins who so far isn't looking that good for Bills this season. Round 3 we drafted most productive RB in college; hard to argue with that. We then got my guy in round 4 Davenport. I offered a factual defense for him at another thread. You have to agree the loss of first and second rounds 2018 limited teams choices but round three did get Rankin who many thought very good at either OT. Good news in 2019 draft depends on where our record ends up; LT Jonah Williams should be on our screen but he has recently climbed to arguably be number one tackle off board. Trey Adams Washington and ranked #1 OT prior 2018 season missed last half of 2017 with knee and was scheduled Sept 2018 have back surgery & expected to return school 2019. RT Edwards Wisconsin had his butt handed to him against BYU. My point is there has to be a quality player available to be a priority pick. Also unfortunately FA doesn't look any better.

 

[eriadoc]

These lineman are all individually more talented than almost all of those early Texans linemen. This offensive line is worse.