Now do i seem ridiculous?????

[Texans_Chick]

Here's a question for some of you Veterans on the boards; that I respect the opinion of...Vinny, TC and the like...

Why does speaking negatively...wait, scrap that...why does speaking IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN 100% POSITIVELY OF CARR...automatically mean that we are bashing him?

Is it the implication of many that if we aren't a Carr (what's the word for "suck-up"?) "fan" then somehow we aren't a Texans fan?

I mean good grief guys..."Rome wasn't built in a day?" But I bet that they didn't have supervisors pushing crews that DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IN THE HECK THEY WERE DOING!!!!!

Leave it to my old buddy SWT to spawn a "carr basher" thread! lol

I guess it is a matter of style and substance whether I consider something bashing or not, of Carr or whomever or whatever.


I like cake.

I like to eat it on a plate. Preferably with a fork.

I do not like cake if it is shoved in my face.


I visit MBs because I find that knowledgeable fans often have the best insight on their teams, much more than the superficial crud you often get from national "expert" publications or the local media.

The problem I find with MBs is when the thoughtful stuff gets lost in the rhetoric and trolling and told-you-so-ing. That instead being a helpful place of trying to figure out what sorta team you got, it is just turns into a goo of rehash and exaggeration.

So, for me, I really like when people bring up rational criticism that recognizes the limitations of making that criticism. I don't much care for regurgitated, redundant armchair QB bomb throwing.

 

[Texans_Chick]

It is a pet peeve of mine. I'm in this thread talking about our players and you are talking about me. Refute my arguments about how Carr looks better on the bootleg than in the pocket....I won't be upset at that. I just hate it when I'm discussing the team and you guys are discussing me instead of my arguments. It happens every year like this...I just get frustrated by it. That's all.

Amen.

Another verse, same as the first.

 

[Runner]

The problem I find with MBs is when the thoughtful stuff gets lost in the rhetoric and trolling and told-you-so-ing. That instead being a helpful place of trying to figure out what sorta team you got, it is just turns into a goo of rehash and exaggeration.

I saw this in a book I recently read; while not literally true, it is food for thought. The speaker is Auguste Duponte, a Sherlock Holmes type detective.

If a fact is said once, we may pay attention, but if a fact is fixed in four places, ignore it, for along the way its replication has stopped all thought.

Matthew Pearl - The Poe Shadow

 

[Doug]

Judging him on his first preseason game in a new offensive scheme...

better?

What you are stating is true, but that wasn't what I was getting at. It is THE first preseason game of this year.

It just seems to me that the differences in opinion are through two totally different foundations of thought (That's original). On one hand you've got people looking at the overall results of Carr's play and decisions in a new offense and the others looking at Carr's mechanics, bad habits, etc. (that he's had for a while now). Just my opinion. Did that make sense or will I be the thread killer again?

 

[GP]

I saw this in a book I recently read; while not literally true, it is food for thought. The speaker is Auguste Duponte, a Sherlock Holmes type detective.

I have absolutely no clue what you are saying , and frankly I am getting really freaked out right now. This is football, not an afternoon reading at the public library. Somebody get that man a WWE magazine. Stat!

Just kidding, runner. I appreciate your contributions.

 

[RTP2110]

Wow. IMO I would say that its nearly impossible to evaluate a QB on 5 passes in the 1st preseason game under a new head coach. I would think it would take a little more then that to get a ''fair'' evaluation of any QB, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd string. Seems many people have already wrote the book in one game. Ok I'm staying away from all Carr threads until at least week 4 of the regular season. Most of us should be able to draw reasonable conclusions at that point in the season.

 

[Revolution]

Amen.

Another verse, same as the first.

That's part of what a message board is, unfortunately. Thousands of anonymous people who are far more aggressive than they would ever be in person. I let Vinny know that I am going to stay more football focused as I have let myself fall into the trap of getting more personal than I should.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it is better received on a message board if you have some facts that back it up. I have failed on numerous occasions to back up my arguments. Mostly because I haven't taken the time to do the research.

Sorry for the off-topic post. Carry on....

 

[Texansbacker]

I like Vinny's opinion as it is always based in facts and in this case about David Carr. Carr did nothing spectacular but he did what he was asked and he did so pretty efficiently for the first preseason game.

Carr should progress through the preseason and hopefully treat us to an opening day win against the Eagles, ala 2002 against the Cowboys. Nobody doubted Carr after that game when he was slinging it to Billy Miller. After that game and for the next 3 years there were flashes of brilliance and grit from Carr but also indecision and frustration.

The slate is now clean and with the addition of a true quarterback coach in Kubiak, a new system, added firepower(Eric Moulds, Kevin Walter, Jeb Putzier, Bennie Joppru, Owen Daniels) and a renewed confidence, Carr has every opportunity to live up to his draft status. For the Texans to succeed he needs to become this years Carson Palmer (without the leg injury) and I hope he does.

 

[Vinny]

Hey, I wasn't exactly a box of chocolates when I first discovered message boards...we all have our moments, and some of us learn from our issues. I know I can come across really poorly at times. I'm gonna run for a bit, but before I split I will say that I should know better than to talk football in a thread started by the Anti-Carr pot stir guy (swtbound07). My bad for that one.

 

[Wolf]

I think we forget that Carr supporters and Carr bashers.. Kubiak has a set of plays based on down and distance that he goes with on first of the game.. we review game film and adjust from there on how game film goes.. that is why I think we can't judge Carr from 2 series...he was basically a 1/2 step from being 4/5 with a td instead of 3/5 and no td.... the bootlegs are something IMO later in the game open things up .in many ways .. can't judge that off of one quarter..

 

[Runner]

I have absolutely no clue what you are saying , and frankly I am getting really freaked out right now. This is football, not an afternoon reading at the public library. Somebody get that man a WWE magazine. Stat!

Just kidding, runner. I appreciate your contributions.

Careful, now I have tell you the last book I read.

My Sister's Keeper - Jodi Picoult

Now that is scary. I still can't believe it myself.

----------

I should know better than to talk football...

That's why I'm not!

 

[chuckm]

Bottom Line is Kubiak will continue to evaluate Carr and his play, and he will make him better, and if he can't get him to succeed then I have been wrong about where I think Carr is headed.

well stated

 

[Kaiser Toro]

David Carr, was what I expected in a more QB friendly scheme. I do not see this offense exposing him as much and for that matter I am thankful. He is our QB for the next three years and we just have to hope he is not put in a position where anyone expects him to have strong shoulders and carry the offense.

Sage played against inferior players, but looked like an NFL QB out there. This was, is and will be Carr's position, but it is Kubiak's team. If Kubiak wants Carr in, then I want him in. I have that much faith in our HC at this moment.

I hope that Kubiak will be here for decades and we can just plug and play skill positions and pay above market prices for the guys in the trenches. I felt that I watched an NFL offense and defense, in the same game, from the team in the home whites and was dumbstruck.

 

[Texan Asylum]

I felt that I watched an NFL offense and defense, in the same game, from the team in the home whites and was dumbstruck.

Kaiser...that was beautiful man.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

I agree but didn't the Texans finally look like a NFL team last night?

I believe that is what I said verbatim with some granularity.

 

[chuckm]

I believe that is what I said verbatim with some granularity.

and you explained it better too .....

 

[Hardcore Texan]

Hey, and our O-Line looked pretty good, pass protection was not bad at all, and the ZBS was looking good, the commentators did a good job of spotlighting the O-Lineman breaking off and picking up blocks downfield.

Lundy was very impressive with his decisive one-cuts and hitting the gaps. A. Smith was disappointing though.

Demeco really impressed me too, he was making the defensive calls in the huddle wasn't he? Lots of positives from that young man.

Also, I get the feeling Carr is going to hit Moulds alot, make defenses respect the threat.....and of course freeing up A.J.

 

[edo783]

Also, I get the feeling Carr is going to hit Moulds alot, make defenses respect the threat.....and of course freeing up A.J.

That may actually be a conciouse preseason plan by Kubiak. Get teams aware that Molds is there so that when the season starts they worry about Molds after reviewing the film, and AJ is more free to roam when it counts.

 

[Speedy]

According to some peoples philosophy, the QB who played the best for us yesterday should be our starter, then in that case, I'm buying a Quinton Porter jersey

And that's why I'm glad the Texans hire people to make those decisions and people on a message board don't.

 

[thunderkyss]

let's not mention its the first preseason game of the year and Carr barely threw 5 passes.

That's the only reason I can't really chime in with my Carr hating chums... he only threw the ball 5 times...

Both Sage and Porter really surprised me. Granted, they weren't playing against the same D, but they both played well. Sage definitely merits consideration and Carr needs to step it up to keep his job. I think in the end that Carr is going to be the better of the two, but Sage is much better than I expected... and that makes me feel better in case DC gets injured.

what I saw, and what I think swtbound is saying, is that Sage & Porter looked as if they were playing at a level higher than the second & third team guys they were sharing the field with.

& I agree, I'd like to see Sage with the first team, and Porter with the second team. But I don't think that will be happening in a preseason game, this year. I know Kubiak has been talking about more competition in practice, and that everyone will be pushed...... but as far as Carr goes, the job is his to lose.

I know, Kubiak has a list of things he expects to see from David....... a list of things he doesn't want to see....... and a list of things they'll be working on. At this point, I imagine David's list is longer than Sage's, but because David is the face of this franchise, and Kubiak doesn't believe he is lost yet, David will start with the first team as much as possible.

But, if Kubiak was to announce he plans to start Sage this year, I wouldn't be any more worried about our season, than I would be, if David were startin. Instead of 13-3, I might be predicting 12-1-1 or something like that.

But it's only one game...... don't confuse me as one of the guys saying Sage should start for us.... I'm saying if we trust Kubiak's judgement of Carr, then the same should be extended to Sage. The only people who pick QBs to be back-up QBs, are people who are used to loosing. IMHO, Kubiak doesn't pick back-ups..... he picks should-be-starters.

 

[TexanBacker93]

Here's a question for some of you Veterans on the boards; that I respect the opinion of...Vinny, TC and the like...

Why does speaking negatively...wait, scrap that...why does speaking IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN 100% POSITIVELY OF CARR...automatically mean that we are bashing him?

Is it the implication of many that if we aren't a Carr (what's the word for "suck-up"?) "fan" then somehow we aren't a Texans fan?

I mean good grief guys..."Rome wasn't built in a day?" But I bet that they didn't have supervisors pushing crews that DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IN THE HECK THEY WERE DOING!!!!!

Leave it to my old buddy SWT to spawn a "carr basher" thread! lol

Well, considering Kubiak himself will speak critically of Carr I guess many people will think he's a Carr basher as well.

I like David Carr. I don't know if it's as much that I really want him to succeed. him being the first player ever drafted by the team and all, or that I think he's endured a lot and continues to fight. Does he have some problems? Yes. Does he have talent? Yes. Can he lead a team to the playoffs and beyond? Ye..er..n..er...nobody knows. I haven't had the opportunities to get to any of the training camps, but I've seen some of the videos and watched the news and such. It sounds to me like Kubiak is riding Carr. He is getting on him for making the same mistakes and considering it's the first time a coach has done that it might take a few games to straighten out. I have faith that Kubiak, Calhoun, and the rest of the Texans' coaching staff will get him where he needs to be. If he struggles I don't think it's bashing him to comment on how he performed. I agree that Sage looked a little more comfortable out there last night. I think he's gotten better coaching since he's been in the NFL and maybe that's made a difference.

Bottom line - Kubiak is here to win. He isn't going to play the inferior player just because he's Bob McNair's favorite. McNair wants to win. He's going to let Kubiak put the best 22 on the field regardless of signing bonuses.

 

[TEXANRED]

what I saw, and what I think swtbound is saying, is that Sage & Porter looked as if they were playing at a level higher than the second & third team guys they were sharing the field with.

Keep in mind last year. Remember when we played the Bills? Our D was so bad we made JP lossman look like the next Ken Stabler. Three games later he is benched for Holcomb and right this very second is being considered as a bust. Or how about the St Louis game when the D was so pathetic a third string Ivy League QB was being touted as the next Kurt Warner. Your level of competition matters.

Thats great that Sage and Porter are the Kings of the dregs. Hey every good team needs a reliable back up. Just look at the Falcons and Jags. Good off the bench but not for a season. Sage has had his chances through the years. "This ain't his first rodeo." So to speak.

 

[thunderkyss]

Keep in mind last year. Remember when we played the Bills? Our D was so bad we made JP lossman look like the next Ken Stabler. Three games later he is benched for Holcomb and right this very second is being considered as a bust. Or how about the St Louis game when the D was so pathetic a third string Ivy League QB was being touted as the next Kurt Warner. Your level of competition matters.

Thats great that Sage and Porter are the Kings of the dregs. Hey every good team needs a reliable back up. Just look at the Falcons and Jags. Good off the bench but not for a season. Sage has had his chances through the years. "This ain't his first rodeo." So to speak.

I think both Garrord, and Shaub should be starting somewhere, and a lot of NFL coaches feel the same way about Shaub. Garrord, just didn't get it, I don't think until last year...... If he can put together a couple of good games this year, when Leftwich gets hurt, more folks will be asking for him come '07.

& you have to remember, neither Sage, or Porter were on this team last year. Kubiak dumped a Veteran (who did everything we asked him to), and a
prospect (that looked promising in every situation we gave him) and picked up Sage as our only backup at the time.

So while level of competition does matter, the guy picking the talent does as well.

 

[michaelm]

Carr was on pace for another 100 yard passing game and struggled in the pocket and struggled passing in the middle of the field again (this has always been his problem). The only time he looked comfortable was when he was on the sideline throwing a safe sideline pass.

I really didn't see it that way personally.
I thought DC looked very stable in the pocket. I have rewatched the tape of his plays repeatedly and never saw him look bad in the pocket. There was only one play that I could identify where he may have locked onto his primary reciever, and that was the pass to AJ that was thrown into tightish quarters, but only a very good defensive play deflected that ball. An inch or two higher, and AJ might have taken that one all the way.
As far as struggling in the middle of the feild... I don't know. I mean, only one of his attempts was really in the middle, and that was a crossing route by Moulds which was completed even though a defender had a hand full of Carr's jersy and was pulling him backward (not a lot, but enough so that the ball looked like it was higher than intended). To be objective, the pass was completed, but Moulds was ridiculously wide open, so it was a pretty easy pass.
The one play that is really in question is the one that was almost picked off. I read others speculate that it may have been micommunication between AJ and DC, but I think that this was a bad decision and pass. There were too many defenders around the ball to make that pass at all. I'm hoping that Carr was just pressing to get AJ the ball and get him involved, but that was a bad play.
Other than that, Carr showed that he will force defenses to specifically game plan for the threat of roll-out/bootleg all season long.
He's going to force DEs to maintain their assignments, and they won't be able to just pin their ears back and go after him.
One half second of hesitation by the DEs will allow our tackles to be much more effective in getting to their bodies and tying them up.
You may eventually prove to be right about DC struggling in passes over the middle, but IMO nothing from this game proves that at all.

p.s. to say that he was on pace for 100 yards after just two series is, in my opinion, just an attempt to bend things in order to validate a preconcieved opinion.

 

[thunderkyss]

Near the end of the game, the Cheifs finally caught on to the bootleg.. they had a man waiting there, as QP came around.

Quinton saw him, set up, and completed a pass downfield........


......... priceless.

 

[TexansLucky13]

This thread has lived entirely too long. The only thing good that has come of this is that we all agree that no matter who starts, we have quality depth at the QB position. Discussion closed.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

This thread has lived entirely too long. The only thing good that has come of this is that we all agree that no matter who starts, we have quality depth at the QB position. Discussion closed.

Where were you when we needed you? This thing is going as long as it needs to, the market will decide. Just have to do it out of respect for a lot of blah with legs.

 

[skillz24]

there is a reason carr plays agianst the FIRST team and a reason rosenfels plays against the SECOND and THIRD. let us not forget this isn't rosefels first team they tried to start him before and he put up worst numbers with a team with a solid running back, recievers, and line then carr did all of last year...except sacks of course.

 

[swtbound07]

there is a reason carr plays agianst the FIRST team and a reason rosenfels plays against the SECOND and THIRD. let us not forget this isn't rosefels first team they tried to start him before and he put up worst numbers with a team with a solid running back, recievers, and line then carr did all of last year...except sacks of course.

So again I beg the question...why would anybody have a problem with rosenfels starting against the first team next preseason game. What could it hurt?

 

[TexansLucky13]

Where were you when we needed you? This thing is going as long as it needs to, the market will decide. Just have to do it out of respect for a lot of blah with legs.

That is synonymous with SWTBound07

 

[TK_Gamer]

He threw 5 passes, two were touched by Chiefs first, fumbled once...and he threw for 24 yards in the quarter on pace for his usual hunsky. That doesn't look too different to me. I did praise him for looking "excellent" outside the pocket...but you guys can't take unbiased views...you have to have a homer take or you can't stand it.

I have to say vinny you surprised me too, I think yer goin a little heavy on the extrapolating there. so if a guy starts with 1 for 5 passing by your system he will only complete 20% of his passes, and that means carr not only would have have 96 yds but also 4 fumbles, luckily though in this extrapolated universe we would also recover all 4 fumbles and would have scored 28 pts instead of 24. works for me

 

[TK_Gamer]

So again I beg the question...why would anybody have a problem with rosenfels starting against the first team next preseason game. What could it hurt?

im just gonna say, i'm glad yer just a fan and not someone that makes the texans decisions. you are a hoot

 

[thunderkyss]

This thread has lived entirely too long. The only thing good that has come of this is that we all agree that no matter who starts, we have quality depth at the QB position. Discussion closed.

If it were me, and people continued to discuss a subject after I say, "Discussion closed"......... and I mean it's happened everytime you say "Discussion closed"..... I'd quit saying "Discussion closed". But that's just me.

 

[HJam72]

Yeah! Discussion closed.

 

[Vinny]

I have to say vinny you surprised me too,

In the 5 or so years I've been sharing my thoughts with you guys ...this shouldn't shock anyone. I base most of my commentary on game play. You don't see me pimping my opinion much until the games start...then I base my thoughts on what I see. It's really a pretty simple forumla.

 

[Speedy]

Now do i seem ridiculous?????

What's ridiculous is a 200+ post thread about how ridiculous you are.

 

[powerfuldragon]

carr looked better than rosenfels.

fin.

 

[texan279]

I have to say vinny you surprised me too, I think yer goin a little heavy on the extrapolating there. so if a guy starts with 1 for 5 passing by your system he will only complete 20% of his passes, and that means carr not only would have have 96 yds but also 4 fumbles, luckily though in this extrapolated universe we would also recover all 4 fumbles and would have scored 28 pts instead of 24. works for me

I know that Vinny needs no one to take up for him or defend him, but it seems that some of the newer members criticize him unjustly for not being a homer. I have been on these boards for four years, and I can tell you, Vinny is not a "homer", he is a straight shooter who calls things like he sees them, whether good or bad, and it doesn't matter who or what he is talking about, he just gives an honest opinion on the situation without looking through steel blue colored glasses.

 

[TK_Gamer]

I know that Vinny needs no one to take up for him or defend him, but it seems that some of the newer members criticize him unjustly for not being a homer. I have been on these boards for four years, and I can tell you, Vinny is not a "homer", he is a straight shooter who calls things like he sees them, whether good or bad, and it doesn't matter who or what he is talking about, he just gives an honest opinion on the situation without looking through steel blue colored glasses.

thats why I said he surprised me, I like vinny he has good comments, I just thought he over extrapolated and said it looked like the same carr based on that extrapolation, no need to call out the national guard or anything, I too am intitled to my opinion.

 

[texan279]

thats why I said he surprised me, I like vinny he has good comments, I just those he over extrapolated and said it looked like the same carr based on that extrapolation, no need to call out the national guard or anything, I too am intitled to my opinion.

I will make one more post in this thread and move on so this thread can get back on track. I am not "calling out the national guard" and in my post I said "some of the newer members". My point is some of the newer members rip on people who have anything negative, bad, or honest to say about the team or players on here without looking through steel colored glasses, almost to the point where some of the newer members start acting like trolls, and no I am not talking about you. Yes everyone here is entitled to an opinion, and I am not ripping on you for that, just stating my opinion about some of what I have observed on the board in the last few months. I'm sorry if you took offense to my post, I guess honestly I wasn't referring to your post or you directly, but I have seen a lot of newer members ripping on Vinny and others just for stating their honest opinions.

 

[texan279]

I don't have a habit of agreeing with SWT on...well pretty much ANYTHING.

But with that said, what would the harm be (other than psychological for DC) for Rosenfells(sp) to start this next preseason game just to see how he does against the starting D? Or is it as simple...from Kubiak's point of view he is and will remain the backup, barring injury of course, no matter how he or Carr plays?

Not bashing on Carr...so don't even start that stuff.

Just a question?
Just curious as to you guys thoughts...

I don't see a problem with it, if anything it should be motivation and competition for Carr. I remember either one or two preseasons ago when Carr started the preseason horribly and I was calling for Ragone to start just to see what we had with him, and people thought I was crazy lol.

 

[texan279]

It seems that a little healthy competition to spice things up a bit, would only promote a little excitement in the locker room and on the field.

But maybe that's just me/us?

I think some would agree with us, IMO there is no such thing as bad competition.

 

[bigTEXan8]

I know that Vinny needs no one to take up for him or defend him, but it seems that some of the newer members criticize him unjustly for not being a homer. I have been on these boards for four years, and I can tell you, Vinny is not a "homer", he is a straight shooter who calls things like he sees them, whether good or bad, and it doesn't matter who or what he is talking about, he just gives an honest opinion on the situation without looking through steel blue colored glasses.

That's become on of my favorite things about Vinny. I was a dult when I first got on this board, challening him like I knew something. Vinny is very smart and a straight shooter, like you said.

Since I am just now getting my internet back up, I didn't see the game. All I can do is look at stats. I've seen Rosenfals play before, and I think he's a solid QB, and it will comforting to know he's going to be our back-up. I just think Carr has more to offer as a starting QB than Rosenfals.

 

[Hulk75]

Rolled out and gave one to Moulds.

Okay one ball he should not have thrown, okay.

The other time he showed composure with Wandos guy getting a hand on his jersey Carr yanks him off and delivers a nice ball to Moulds.

another stayed in the pocket and gave another one to Moulds on a comeback.

Then all his play fakes were NICE, he had 20 yards rushing.

Shoot add up his rushing and he has 80 yards rushing.

I see nothing he did wrong other then the one pass.

CALL 911 get Sage warmed up.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Calling TexansLucky13 to the Bull Pen.

 

[texan279]

Rolled out and gave one to Moulds.

Okay one ball he should not have thrown, okay.

The other time he showed composure with Wandos guy getting a hand on his jersey Carr yanks him off and delivers a nice ball to Moulds.

another stayed in the pocket and gave another one to Moulds on a comeback.

Then all his play fakes were NICE, he had 20 yards rushing.

Shoot add up his rushing and he has 80 yards rushing.

I see nothing he did wrong other then the one pass.

CALL 911 get Sage warmed up.

Honestly, I think Carr's problem was probably nerves...

 

[TK_Gamer]

I honestly think any team is gonna have trouble with KC's cheating style cover 2 , they converge under really well and they have two decent safeties so its gonna be alot of take the underneat or risk the deep throw. our tight ends should help with a stutter post type of route. force them to commit and cut down their converge speed. my thoughts anyway, interested to hear anyone elses take on it.

 

[chuckm]

Calling TexansLucky13 to the Bull Pen.

He's asleep .....

 

[TK_Gamer]

Honestly, I think Carr's problem was probably nerves...

before everyone jumps on me again I'm not going carr homer or anything with this, but quite honestly the way carr moves his feet and holds the ball up, he kinda allways gives that "nervous" impression. but I dont think he is all that nervous, just a style or technique thing. in my oppinion anyway, he just allways looks a little awkward even on his great plays.

 

[HOU-TEX]

Rolled out and gave one to Moulds.

Okay one ball he should not have thrown, okay.

The other time he showed composure with Wandos guy getting a hand on his jersey Carr yanks him off and delivers a nice ball to Moulds.

another stayed in the pocket and gave another one to Moulds on a comeback.

Then all his play fakes were NICE, he had 20 yards rushing.

Shoot add up his rushing and he has 80 yards rushing.

I see nothing he did wrong other then the one pass.

CALL 911 get Sage warmed up.

I think all 3 of our QBs did a nice job. One of the passes complete to Moulds, AJ was wide open deep. It'll probably take a little time for Carr to adjust to actually having time to make his decisions. Maybe as pre-season wears on we might see a few passes further down the field.