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Now do i seem ridiculous?????
- Thread starter swtbound07
- Start date
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infantrycak
Hall of Fame
swtbound07 said:
Except that the number of W's is... A STAT and it is a TEAM sport.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
texan279 said:
because we won due to the performance of Sage Rosenfels of course....where were you?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
swtbound07 said:
Seriously, this pot has been stirred, overboiled and burnt to the stove. You've made your point. No need to mention it every time a four letter word starting in C comes up or to poke anyone who says the slightest positive thing about the C word.
swtbound07 said:
swtbound07........... I feel you. after watching Sage Saturday, my "notion" that Kubiak wanted him........ not only to push Carr, but to be the starter in the event Carr doesn't work out...... has been solidified. & I'm not as worried as I was about looking for a QB two years from now, if/when we concede David ain't gonna get it done.
Lord knows I don't drink the David Carr Koolaid...... but I understand making David Carr successful is as big a part of the organizations agenda as making the Texans successful.
Now I am old school, I like for players to come into an organization to start their careers, and end their careers on their terms... I hate the 49ers for how they treated Montanna....... I hate the Titans more for the way they treated McNair than anything BudAdams did to the city of Houston.
& right now, I'm as skeptical as the next guy(maybe not to the degree that you are) that David is not the man for the Texans. But........ I think it is the right thing to do.
The only thing that really upsets me, is that David has only given us one good season, and people on this board will die for him. While DD has given us three years and his left(??) knee..... but they are ready to toss him aside.
TJ...... Babin........ Weary..... Brown...... IMHO if we were going to pass on Vince Young so that David Can have a fair shot, then we should extend that same chance to all these players as well. Kubiak has...... for the most part. But the attitude of many of the posters on this board gets me down.
IMHO, David doesn't look any better than he did last year, but..... he only threw 5 passes...... we can't promote Sage on that alone.
David's going to screw up a lot....... I'm telling you that right now. you'll only be upsetting yourself, if you plan on doing this all year.
From my experience here on this board, everybody knows David screwed up alot last year(though they won't admit it) and he will screw up alot in the year to come...... but they all want to do the right thing, and that is to give David a fair chance.... and you can't fault them for that. IT's more important to them to be decent people than it is to win football games.......
As ****ty as Houston Fans are..... it's nice that they are decent folks after all.
Wolf said:
I'd take Billy Miller back any day of the week. and teams have won with Bradford & McKinney...... and they'll win with Milford Brown and Jabar Gaffney.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
texan279 said:
What do you have against billy miller? Great reieving tight end...i'd take him back over fragile joppru or unproven owen anyday
texan279
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Sure teams have won with Bradford and McKinney, the Packers won with Bradford but also had Brett Favre, Ahman Green, Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks, and a pretty good defense during that time. The Colts had 2 winning seasons out of the 4 McKinney was there along with Manning, Edge James, Marvin Harrison. Not sure how good the Cards and Eagles are gonna be this season though...
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
While everyone is taking a breather from the debate over the trial of the century, what would yall think of Jake Plummer being traded to us if DC doesnt produce and Cutler becomes the Elway's second coming?
That would be hilarious...
That would be hilarious...
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Almost as funny as everyone trying critique a players peformance down to every breath on a limited downs in preseason.
Wolf
100% Texan
holly cow ..miller is a WR turned TE and y'all would keep him after Cleveland (with ole JR injured) let him go and now in N.O. he is 3rd string
I wished Billy Miller the best and I wished he'd had stayed but NFL wise .he didn't have starting talent (by what is shown by 3 teams now)
I wished Billy Miller the best and I wished he'd had stayed but NFL wise .he didn't have starting talent (by what is shown by 3 teams now)
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Wolf said:
In another thread, I've stated that if his stats are a little better than 2004 (basically career bests across the board), I'll be happy because that's more than good enough to win on a good team. I've also said that I'm hoping for 8 wins but expecting 5 this season.
Whether I throw him under the bus at the end of this season will be based on whether I think he lost games with his play. We could win 12+ games but if his performance isn't good, then I'll be calling for someone else. OTOH, we could lose 12+ and if I think he performed well and we lost because the team as a whole didn't step up, then I won't be asking for his head.
But that's just me.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
TexansBull said:
I would NOT be laughing. I do NOT want Plummer on this team.
texan279 said:
Of the guys you mentioned, only Putz has caught more passess, and has more recieving yards than Billy Miller...... So, until I have someone that is better than him, who has proven that he can produce more than him....... yes....... I'd take Billy Miller over Daniels or Jopru.....
texan279 said:
So....... three teams believe Bill Miller has NFL talent?? Is that supposed to be a bad thing??
& We had Carr, DD, Andre, Bruenner....... and a decent defense at one time.... what's your point??texan279 said:
Again, is that a knock against McKinney?? & if we are comparingtexan279 said:
Manning to Carr....... Edge to Domanick........ & Harrison to Andre...... where would you see the biggest discrepency??
texan279 said:
I'm still not seeing your argument....... are you saying those teams are better off without said players??
texan279 said:
Billy Miller would have been an assett on this team the last two years, when we had little to no recieving Tightend threat.
Wolf said:
JebPutzier is a wide reciever turned Tightend.... is that a problem??
& we didn't have starting talent at tightend for the last two years....
texan279
Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by texan279
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.
Of the guys you mentioned, only Putz has caught more passess, and has more recieving yards than Billy Miller...... So, until I have someone that is better than him, who has proven that he can produce more than him....... yes....... I'd take Billy Miller over Daniels or Jopru.....
There is more than receiving yards and catches when it comes to a good tight end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.
So....... three teams believe Bill Miller has NFL talent?? Is that supposed to be a bad thing??
When you have been dumped by the Texans and Browns, I consider that pretty bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Sure teams have won with Bradford and McKinney, the Packers won with Bradford but also had Brett Favre, Ahman Green, Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks, and a pretty good defense during that time.
& We had Carr, DD, Andre, Bruenner....... and a decent defense at one time.... what's your point??
Carr is no Favre, DD is no Ahman Green, and Bruener is no Franks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
The Colts had 2 winning seasons out of the 4 McKinney was there along with Manning, Edge James, Marvin Harrison.
Again, is that a knock against McKinney?? & if we are comparing
Manning to Carr....... Edge to Domanick........ & Harrison to Andre...... where would you see the biggest discrepency??
Not a knock against McKinney, and I did not compare any of the above players mentioned, just stated that when the Colts had won with McKinney like you stated, that Manning, Edge, and Harrison were all on that team, I never compared them to anyone on our team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Not sure how good the Cards and Eagles are gonna be this season though...
I'm still not seeing your argument....... are you saying those teams are better off without said players??
Not saying they are better off without them, but you said the Cards and Eagles would win with Gaffney and Brown, which to me came across like you think these guys are going to put these teams over the top. Gaffney will be the Eagles 3rd WR and Brown is going to start at guard, and I don't see either of them making a major impact on their perspective teams, maybe an improvement over the guys they replaced, but I just do not see them doing anything special.
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.
Of the guys you mentioned, only Putz has caught more passess, and has more recieving yards than Billy Miller...... So, until I have someone that is better than him, who has proven that he can produce more than him....... yes....... I'd take Billy Miller over Daniels or Jopru.....
There is more than receiving yards and catches when it comes to a good tight end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
You would seriously take Billy Miller back over Putzier, Bruener, Daniels, or Joppru? By the way Miller is now with the Saint's, his 3rd team in 3 seasons.
So....... three teams believe Bill Miller has NFL talent?? Is that supposed to be a bad thing??
When you have been dumped by the Texans and Browns, I consider that pretty bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Sure teams have won with Bradford and McKinney, the Packers won with Bradford but also had Brett Favre, Ahman Green, Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks, and a pretty good defense during that time.
& We had Carr, DD, Andre, Bruenner....... and a decent defense at one time.... what's your point??
Carr is no Favre, DD is no Ahman Green, and Bruener is no Franks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
The Colts had 2 winning seasons out of the 4 McKinney was there along with Manning, Edge James, Marvin Harrison.
Again, is that a knock against McKinney?? & if we are comparing
Manning to Carr....... Edge to Domanick........ & Harrison to Andre...... where would you see the biggest discrepency??
Not a knock against McKinney, and I did not compare any of the above players mentioned, just stated that when the Colts had won with McKinney like you stated, that Manning, Edge, and Harrison were all on that team, I never compared them to anyone on our team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Not sure how good the Cards and Eagles are gonna be this season though...
I'm still not seeing your argument....... are you saying those teams are better off without said players??
Not saying they are better off without them, but you said the Cards and Eagles would win with Gaffney and Brown, which to me came across like you think these guys are going to put these teams over the top. Gaffney will be the Eagles 3rd WR and Brown is going to start at guard, and I don't see either of them making a major impact on their perspective teams, maybe an improvement over the guys they replaced, but I just do not see them doing anything special.
our problem with Tightend over the last two years, was that we didn't have a true recieving tightend.... Billy's problem..... far as I can tell was that he wasn't the best blocker. Billy would have solved the problem of recieving tightend, and given David a proven third option to Andre & DD.texan279 said:
Didn't the Browns send an entire offensive line.... or defensive line or something to Denver that worked out pretty good for Shanahan?? Haven't we been saying Caper's wouldn't know talent if you beat him with it??texan279 said:
Again, I'm not getting what you are saying.... are you saying our QB shouldn't be starting in the NFL?? That our RB doesn't add between 1300 & 1800 yrds of offense every year, and that our Tightend is lucky to be in the league??texan279 said:
We had talented players...... Enough to have a .500 seaso by now.
well if you don't think our players compare with any of those players, then we should've just started over, drafted Vince, and call it rebuilding.texan279 said:
I'm not saying either of those two are the "put you over the top" players..... those guys are role players, and they did their job for us.... just because Capers got rid of them doesn't mean they don't have talent to play in this league, or the ability to contribute to an NFL team.texan279 said:
but since we are on the subject, I think Gaffney is better than any reciever the Eagles have on their roster today...... I think it will be obvious to everyone else, come December. To clarify..... I didn't say before now that Gaffney is a "push them over the top" player" I beleive he is....... but haven't said so until now
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
At some point in time you are going to have to look beyond talent as factors for winning and losing. You can't forget about the lack of creativity for play calling or the constant audible run to the left. Those are things that talent can't make up for. Remember, even if we had a tight end that could catch, we probably wouldn't have used him. I don't know if you remember when Billy Miller was here, but he used to go on FOX sports & also ABC 13 sports and talk with them about the games. I remember one time that he was aggrevated because he wasn't getting the ball thrown to him during the game and made some comment about our winning % when he has catches. So, stating that we would have used the talent we had is incorrect. We didn't and we wouldn't have. There are too many factors to say any player we had in the past sucked because they couldn't perform in our system. Look at Posey, didn't he go to San Diego & go to the pro bowl? (I think that was his name or Foley, can't remember) Our previous staff couldn't game plan or use anyone, even if they were a super star like Favre or TO, Brady or Harrison. I would be willing to bet if we had some of the top talent in the league under our old coaching staff we still would have lost.
Cjeremy635 said:
Overall, good points, but you are arguing points no one has made. My main point.... about Billy Miller anyway... is that we've been lacking a pass recieving Tightend, and a recieving threat to ease the double teams on AJ...... Billy Miller would have helped in those two areas..
that's all.
Your points about the proper use of talent by the previous coaching staff, is directly inline with mine.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Miller has only been gone 1 year. He was here 2002-2004. He accounted for 178 yds in 2004 out of 3550 yds. Much of that drop in production from 2002 was scheme but Miller is not a starting quality TE and was released by Shanahan/Kubiak prior to coming here in addition to his trouble having any team accept him since departing.
You should give Andy Reid a call because he sure needs to be moving Gaff up the depth chart.
Before the draft, there were many people hoping we'd get a pass catching tightend.... In free agency, there was quite a bit of excitement for gettting JebPutzierinfantrycak said:
What am I missing?? Billy Miller has been our best recieving tightend to date. I don't care what Romeo Krennel thought about him, or that Denver cut him. He worked for us. I'm not saying he was the best in the league...... I'm not saying he should be starting in place of Kellen Winslow...... all I'm saying is that we had a pass catching tightend, and we let him go. & if I could find a spot for him on our team, I would.
infantrycak said:
what's his number??
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
thunderkyss said:
How are we going to go your predicted 13-3 if you think David or Sage or whoever are going to make a ton of mistakes. To go 13-3 you have to have more than just a so-so QB. There is no malice in my question, just curious?
Hardcore Texan said:
David's mistake aren't really the throwing the ball into coverage kind of mistakes. He normally makes good decisions, and protects the ball.....
when I say he's going to screw up, so get ready for it, I mean he's going to run into the occasional sack.... he's going to not see open recievers... he's going to not audible when he should. We'll probably get a few delay of games on #8 as well. David isn't going to be perfect......... but I'm hoping he'll get the job done regardless........ kinda like BenRothlisberg, or Tom Brady the first year they won the SuperBowl.
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
IMO, Owen Daniel is going to be a great TE, from what little I have seen from him in the preseason, and what I have heard Kubiak say....at least the potential is there.
I like Billy Miller and think he will have a special place with Texans fans and should always be recognized for his signature moment, that is for sure, and I wish him luck. But no way do I see him making this squad. We are too deep at TE, with lots of talent.
I like Billy Miller and think he will have a special place with Texans fans and should always be recognized for his signature moment, that is for sure, and I wish him luck. But no way do I see him making this squad. We are too deep at TE, with lots of talent.
The Texans did draft a pass catching TE. Owen Daniels #81. Check him out this Saturday against the Rams, I think you'll like what you see.thunderkyss said:
Billy Miller was a good receiving TE for the Texans. Was. In the '03 offseason, the Texans asked Miller to put on weight in order to become a better blocker. The additional weight didn't help that much in the blocking department, and it really hurt Billy's ability to create seperation from linebackers. Miller became a guy who wasn't a good blocker and not able to uncover. And that's why he's struggling to stay in the league.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Its funny to see the way my little thread meanders and grows when i go to sleep...
swtbound07 said:
texan279 said:
Wolf said:
thunderkyss said:
For all the people coming late to the party. My Billy Miller argument belongs in this context. I'm not comparing Billy Miller to any of the guys on our current Roster..... I'm not implying..... or trying to.... that Billy Miller would start over any of these guys.
I believe many of us agreed that we needed a tightend to threaten the middle of the field. I'm just saying Billy Miller would have filled that void. I never would have gotten rid of Billy Miller if i didn't have a proven replacement.
That's all.
powerfuldragon
Enchilada Aficionado.
...here i was thinking this thread was finally going to die.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
swtbound07 said:
My take on David's performance Saturday night is that you really can't judge it too much.
The reason is simple, he only played two series.
It could have easily been a disaster if that INT wasn't dropped and he couldn't have picked up that fumbled snap to still pick up the first down.
The one thing I did notice is that is seemed all of the pass plays were really safe. It didn't seem like he was really stretching the field.
At some point they are going to have to do that, otherwise defenses will shut down that bootleg and the short passing game.
Good news, it seems as though the entire offense has not been implemented for game purposes.
I think the Denver and Tampa Bay games will provid a really good indication of how Carr and the offense will perform at the beginning of the season.
DRAMA
Rookie
Things always seem rosier when looking back.
Billy Miller was an avg-to-below avg tight end on his very best day in the NFL. His hands are no better than Bruener's - he just may be more athletic...slightly. Billy Miller is often refered to as an option we used to have. We had no offense and Carr panicked quite often. Almost all young QB's (Which are more likely to be on bad teams) throw to their TE and their RB. It's a panic button. If Miller played the best season of his life, at the end of the year regardless of where he played, he would be roughly average at the very best.
Billy Miller was an avg-to-below avg tight end on his very best day in the NFL. His hands are no better than Bruener's - he just may be more athletic...slightly. Billy Miller is often refered to as an option we used to have. We had no offense and Carr panicked quite often. Almost all young QB's (Which are more likely to be on bad teams) throw to their TE and their RB. It's a panic button. If Miller played the best season of his life, at the end of the year regardless of where he played, he would be roughly average at the very best.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Doug said:
That will concern me.
This is a new offense and they need as many reps before the regular season if they want to start off strong.
You could be be right though. But keep in mind, this is not a proven team.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
hollywood_texan said:
That is somewhat the Denver offense. The attempt to AJ was certainly a downfield play but was broken up by a very good play by the LB.
One thing to note--all 5 of Carr's pass attempts were to WR's. 11 of 18 passing attempts from Sage went to RB's or TE's. Not at all saying anything of merit about either player--just an observation. I would expect a healthy mix to the RB and TE's from Carr as well with more plays.
Hulk75
Veteran
For anyone to think Sage is better then Carr or thinks he should start over him needs help. I would also do okay against the Chiefs 3 string guys, holy hand granade, the lack of talent drops off a lot from 1 to 3.
So we had a 5 year vet Sage going up against guys that are playing in their 1st game as a pros.
So we had a 5 year vet Sage going up against guys that are playing in their 1st game as a pros.
HoustonFan
Veteran
swtbound07 said:
Yeah, this sounds about right. I wouldn't care if he had 50 yards total, 6 INTs, and sacked 3+ times in the game. If the Texans won, WHO CARES ABOUT THE DAMN STATS? At the end of the day a W is a W
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