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Brock Getting the Boys In Step Early

infantrycak said:
I think it's a bad philosophy. Yes there are some growing pains but avoiding rookies QBs is way too limiting. Good vets are practically hens teeth.
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Considering they're thinking/hoping they found a hens tooth, I don't have a problem with it at all. I feel relatively confident that had they not been able to bring in Osweiler, you'd be seeing Paxton Lynch (or maybe Cook or Hackenberg) on the Texans roster, with a realistic to likely chance of starting at some point in their rookie season.

I also believe that the 2016 season will be a better season than it would be if one of those three guys were the starter. Whether 2017 and beyond will be better is the big question as far as I'm concerned.
 
infantrycak said:
I think it's a bad philosophy. Yes there are some growing pains but avoiding rookies QBs is way too limiting. Good vets are practically hens teeth.
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I think there was some rationalizing going on... but in a win now mode I don't blame them a bit. It's hard to trust a rookie qb to come in and make a big difference right off the bat. A few years down the road maybe. If you have a chance to get a Luck, then yeah but that's harder to find than hen's teeth
 
I agree with what y'all are saying for this offseason. Like the Oz move. But in general I don't want a dislike of teaching rookies to be limiting. Sure as hell hope that wasn't what had us pass on QBs in 2014 in favor of Fitz.
 
JB said:
I think there was some rationalizing going on... but in a win now mode I don't blame them a bit. It's hard to trust a rookie qb to come in and make a big difference right off the bat. A few years down the road maybe. If you have a chance to get a Luck, then yeah but that's harder to find than hen's teeth
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It only takes purposely tanking a season to get a Luck.
 
infantrycak said:
I agree with what y'all are saying for this offseason. Like the Oz move. But in general I don't want a dislike of teaching rookies to be limiting. Sure as hell hope that wasn't what had us pass on QBs in 2014 in favor of Fitz.
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I think it was! I remember BOB saying that year before the draft something like there were 8 to 10 QB's in the draft that he rated about the same. He personally worked out Savage and Garoppolo at their Pro-Days. They picked Savage in the 4th and, if you believe any of the rumors during that time, BOB wanted Garoppolo with the 1st pick in the 3rd round but Belicheat took him 2 or 3 picks ahead in the 2nd round. This pretty much told me that BOB didn't think there was much difference between Bortles, Bridgewater, Carr, and Savage and he wasn't going to waste the #1 pick on someone he felt would take too long to develop when the Texans needed other positions filled. I think he felt he had to turn the team around quickly and it was better to do that with a veteran QB. Problem was he didn't have to much to pick from with the QB FA that year. I just wonder, if Luck had been coming out that year, what BOB would have done!
 
I believe that if Minnesota didn't jump back into the 1st round, Bridgewater would've been wearing a Texan uni.
I also look at the amount of people who say that Osweiler won't be any good and remember how most of them said Manziel would be a nice fit in Houston.
 
infantrycak said:
I think it's a bad philosophy. Yes there are some growing pains but avoiding rookies QBs is way too limiting. Good vets are practically hens teeth.
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I'm sure it depends on several factors. If he believes he's got a team that can make a serious run & doesn't fall in love with a guy...

If we were building from scratch, or he fell in love with a particular prospect I wouldn't have been surprised if we drafted a QB in the first.

Most of us weren't enamored with any of the QBs in the last few drafts. Not so much that we would give away what was needed to secure the pick to get said QB. Most of us weren't willing to pass on elite talent (though we didn't agree on the Clowney fit) to take one of those QBs with the #1 over all.


I don't think Rick or O'b has a philosophy that limits what they do in the draft. What we've seen is the result of circumstance. What we hear, the result of coach speak.
 
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mussop said:
Nope their just fine.
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Their aren't anything.

They're piss poor if you can't grasp and match the 3 in 3-4. Clowney was hand in the dirt in 4 and 5 man fronts. Hell most of the second half it was JJ and Clowney down with 3 LBs standing in between. None of that has anything to do with playing 3-4 DE.
 
Going with Cak on this one. I don't specifically recall plays where Clowney had his hand in the dirt in a base 3-4. There were always 4 guys at the line. I'm sure that we got AV geeks here that could carve out each play and confirm.
 
sandman said:
Going with Cak on this one. I don't specifically recall plays where Clowney had his hand in the dirt in a base 3-4. There were always 4 guys at the line. I'm sure that we got AV geeks here that could carve out each play and confirm.
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Even if there were only 3 guys.... he's playing outside the tackle, not straight up. He's attacking the outside edge of the OL. He's not trying to hold up the LT so the rush end can go get the QB. He is the rush end.
 
thunderkyss said:
Even if there were only 3 guys.... he's playing outside the tackle, not straight up. He's attacking the outside edge of the OL. He's not trying to hold up the LT so the rush end can go get the QB. He is the rush end.
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Yep. I was going to go with "and he was lined up really wide anyways!" but I like how you said it.
 
A number of plays and not the complete picture, mind ...


Couple plays lined up as a 3-4 DE, but he was headed toward the backfield and not maintaining any edge responsibility on those. The vast majority of the time though he was essentially a 4/5 technique playing kill the man with the ball. Which is of course his best usage.

How did he not draw a flag against Sitton on that one all alone in the backfield?
 
How did he not draw a flag against Sitton on that one all alone in the backfield?
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Yeah I noticed that during the game...I guess it isn't a penalty anymore if the defender blows right by you and you give him a "good job! WTG!" hug from behind?
 
I think the big problem is that people have gotten carried away with buzz words. Especially come draft time, people like Mayock & such will say, "Jj Watt is your prototypical 5 tech." Which technically he is at 6'5" or so, 300lbs & lon arms. Mario Williams, classic 5-tech.

But both Mario & Jj are way more athletic than your typical 5 tech. Then you get a mad scientist like Wade, who's 3-4 doesn't use a traditional 5 tech. Wade's 3-4 is actually a 4-3 with the RDE standing up.

PFF
You might ask why I’m not listing Justin Smith, a player we regard as clearly the best 3-4 end in football, in this spot. The answer is because Smith often doesn’t play the traditional 5-technique in the 49ers’ defense, and does much of his damage inside as a DT in their sub packages (in more of a 3-technique role), and often knifes into gaps while shaded slightly to either side of the tackle (in more a 4 or 6-technique). He is certainly well capable of playing the 5, and would be a perfectly reasonable example, but if coaches were drawing up a player for the traditional 2-gap 5-technique role, he would look like Ty Warren.
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PFF
As we continue our look through the Defensive Line prototypes we come to the 5-technique, which has been suffering from a confused identity in common parlance.

When the draft rolls around we hear talk about the traditional 5-tech, the long, strong 3-4 defensive end who plays over the offensive tackle and dominates against the run. That player is actually a 4-tech in the most widely used naming system. The 5-tech actually lines up shaded to the outside of the offensive tackle.

The 5-tech might not be exactly what you thought it was, but perhaps the most interesting point in all of this is that the entire position of 3-4 defensive end is dissolving the more the league is forced to defend the passing attack of offenses with nickel and dime defensive packages.
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If we remember back when we first signed Wade as our DC, before the first snap was played, medi0ts tried stirring conflict with the speculation that Mario would have to become a 2 gap player in a 3-4.

Traditional 2 gap players don't rush the passer & don't get 4-3 DE money. Then Wade drafted Watt & Mario was moved to OLB.

Still, Watt never played as a traditional 5 tech. He would move around depending on the situation. He'd play the B-gap, the 5-technique, and the edge.

Clowney weights in at 265-270lbs this year. That's 4-3 DE weight. He'd get swallowed up, or just ran over if he tried to play the "traditional" 3-4 DE.

If you're saying you want him to put his hand in the dirt opposite JJ & rush the passer, you're saying you want him to play 4-3 DE. 4-3 five tech (which no one really says that way).
 
Mollywhopper said:
A number of plays and not the complete picture, mind ...


Couple plays lined up as a 3-4 DE, but he was headed toward the backfield and not maintaining any edge responsibility on those. The vast majority of the time though he was essentially a 4/5 technique playing kill the man with the ball. Which is of course his best usage.

How did he not draw a flag against Sitton on that one all alone in the backfield?
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Wow, I was at the game and have not had a chance to rewatch the broadcast, Clowney looks nasty. Yes he got a cheap sack with Cutler running out of bounds ala Carr back in the day but he was close on multiple occasions where Cutler got rid of the ball very quickly. I'm impressed.
 
kiwitexansfan said:
And Brock got Clowney in step early to play DE how??
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Brock stomped up to him, bumped him chest to chest, and then shoved him away. Then he screamed with spittle flying out of his mouth, "Put your hands in the dirt, mister, or I will kick your ass from here to Idaho and back again!"

And Clowney was very scared.

Either that or Romeo said, "I want you to play DE." To which Clowney said, "Yes, coach."
 
Mollywhopper said:
A number of plays and not the complete picture, mind ...


Couple plays lined up as a 3-4 DE, but he was headed toward the backfield and not maintaining any edge responsibility on those. The vast majority of the time though he was essentially a 4/5 technique playing kill the man with the ball. Which is of course his best usage.

How did he not draw a flag against Sitton on that one all alone in the backfield?
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why don't we just play a "wade" 4-3? i know cause we have no WOLB. next draft, we may look OLine and WOLB, with good coverage assets. Because quite frankly, the only time I saw Clowney in the video you post get out of contain was at the 3 tech on a base 3/4 with no OLB help on the outside. why? Cause we were in nickel and they stacked right. Clowney is athletic enough to set an edge, too bad he's trigger happy and needs outside support on a base 3 tech no matter what. I like the Clowney pick but if you want to move him to a 4/5 tech you have to have a 7/8 tech split. simple as that. that's why Clowney actually fit better as a 4-3 DE. cause even if the OLB isn't outside of him per se OLB has that responsibility base on where Clowney moves the POA.
 
Mollywhopper said:
A number of plays and not the complete picture, mind ...


Couple plays lined up as a 3-4 DE, but he was headed toward the backfield and not maintaining any edge responsibility on those. The vast majority of the time though he was essentially a 4/5 technique playing kill the man with the ball. Which is of course his best usage.

How did he not draw a flag against Sitton on that one all alone in the backfield?
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yeah I was literally screaming at my TV when I saw that play live....that was the definition of a hold as Sitton was literally holding him back; probably costed Clowney a 2nd sack.
 
corytx8 said:
What does clowney have to do with Brock?
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I was wondering that but TPN clarified that really well with his above response.

"Brock stomped up to him, bumped him chest to chest, and then shoved him away. Then he screamed with spittle flying out of his mouth, "Put your hands in the dirt, mister, or I will kick your ass from here to Idaho and back again!" And Clowney was very scared."
 
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corytx8 said:
What does clowney have to do with Brock?


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Mr teX said:
yeah I was literally screaming at my TV when I saw that play live....that was the definition of a hold as Sitton was literally holding him back; probably costed Clowney a 2nd sack.
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Yeah I was the same way, and the Ref was right there is what's sad about it.....
 
There are very few plays where one of JJ, Clowney or Mercilus does not get held. Get uaed to it or you'll get an ulcer. The refs are only going to call enough to 'keep them honest' which is a joke.
 
All in to win, nice to see. Thanks for sharing CnD. Many little things add up, details baby. Too many pros rely on talent alone
 
infantrycak said:
There are very few plays where one of JJ, Clowney or Mercilus does not get held. Get uaed to it or you'll get an ulcer. The refs are only going to call enough to 'keep them honest' which is a joke.
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I agree, and not only tend to avoid complaining about those kinds of call but usually tell people who habitually whine about them to shush. That one happened to be in the middle of the backfield right in front of the QB on their own little island. You can't spoon a man on tv to stop him from smushing your QB in front of thousands and not expect a flag, is all I'm saying.
 
Mollywhopper said:
I agree, and not only tend to avoid complaining about those kinds of call but usually tell people who habitually whine about them to shush. That one happened to be in the middle of the backfield right in front of the QB on their own little island. You can't spoon a man on tv to stop him from smushing your QB in front of thousands and not expect a flag, is all I'm saying.
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Yeah, that's all I was saying as well, it was just so blatant, I mean how could the ref ignore that one.
 
Osweiler is not the guy, hes just not. He might be better than Hoyer or Mallet but not by much. He's got accuracy issues. The defense is carrying him.
 
Well I'm no NFL coach, but once the ball leaves the QB's hands I'm pretty sure you aren't going to "coach" it the correct spot. :bender:

I guess it doesn't stop people from trying though, raise your hand if you have been known to lean during FG attempts? Be honest.
 
I'm not curled in the fetal over them either. None of them have been thrown into multiple defender coverage situations or due to just chucking it up blind and/or hopeless. They've all three been on routes where either he didn't get it in absolutely accurate enough or when reading between he and the receiver which way the break should be. These things can be ironed out in meetings and practice unlike simply being a careless overmatched journeyman type.

The really good looks continue to come while these are correctable offenses.
 
Mollywhopper said:
I'm not curled in the fetal over them either. None of them have been thrown into multiple defender coverage situations or due to just chucking it up blind and/or hopeless. They've all three been on routes where either he didn't get it in absolutely accurate enough or when reading between he and the receiver which way the break should be. These things can be ironed out in meetings and practice unlike simply being a careless overmatched journeyman type.

The really good looks continue to come while these are correctable offenses.
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Exactly. No doubt he needs to improve on that, but these aren't the "WTF were you thinking, 3rd string high school qb's make better decisions than that" type throws.

He hasn't Brian Hoyered yet so he's still got that going for him.
 
I am definitely still on the Osweiler bandwagon, but he has had quite a few WTFs in these 2 games. Looking forward to seeing the video of all his throws for this game. He had some poor throws and some poor decisions.

At this point, his Good Plays seem about even with his WTF plays. His GP/WTF ratio should go up as he gets more time in the system and with the receivers. Still very excited about the season. Oz certainly has the potential to be the best QB the Texans have ever had. And that will be good enough for a deep play-off run in the next few years.
 
One thing I do like about Brock is that after an interception, he comes back and plays like it didn't happen - like a CB who gets beat for a TD, has a short memory, and is able to put it behind him. He also seems to have some of that gunslinger mentality, and I like that.
 
I think everyone has made good points... it's a concern, let's see how it plays out. One of the reasons I was on board with Osweiler is that he's still basically Raw. 5 years into the league & he's got most of the big stuff figured out,


  1. You're the leader, act like it.
  2. Understands ball placements
  3. Tough enough (mentally & physically) to play with the big boys.
  4. Can manage the Huddle & the LOS
  5. Ain't afraid to Chuck it down field
Now it's just about learning to read defenses & operate an offense the way O'b wants it. He's dealing with a brand new OL, a new RB, & a new receiving corps.

All the major issues on our offense should be worked out by Thanksgiving. I'm going to wait till then before I reassess our offense & Brock Osweiler.
 
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Mollywhopper said:
I'm not curled in the fetal over them either. None of them have been thrown into multiple defender coverage situations or due to just chucking it up blind and/or hopeless. They've all three been on routes where either he didn't get it in absolutely accurate enough or when reading between he and the receiver which way the break should be. These things can be ironed out in meetings and practice unlike simply being a careless overmatched journeyman type.

The really good looks continue to come while these are correctable offenses.
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So, you're saying he hasn't Hoyered it yet?
 
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