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Andre Johnson released - cut by Colts - signs with Titans

I loved Andre while he was here. Still hope he gets to the HOF as a Texan.

But he's not a Texan, anymore. I don't want him to win a SB with the Colts because they're the enemy. I only want us to win Super Bowls. I want us to crush the Colts every time we play them. I wouldn't mind if our whole division went 3-13 except for us.

If he puts up big stats, fine. I honestly don't expect him to. He can say whatever he wants to say. He's on the wrong team, now.
 
A.J. and Bob McNair both speak out of both sides of their mouths. Both claimed that A.J. would be a Houston Texan for life. But actions, not words, says it all.

As far as A.J.'s thoughts on Luck, he's right. The Houston Texans have never had a QB even close to the potential that Luck has right now. Sucks for us Texans fans, but it's not our decision to make the call.

With regards to A.J.'s unusual current runny mouth, he's a Colt now, so his words are worthless to me. I read/hear them and feel apathetic about it. They can trot him out in a Texans uni one day with a one day contract for a dog and pony show, and it means nothing to me. As B.B. King sang, "the thrill is gone". A.J. is nothing but an ex-Texan now, and that's just the way it is.

And fwiw, J.J. Watt gets into the HoF before A.J. Voters are wise to the bloated numbers of QBs and WRs in this modern arena-league version of the NFL. 100 catches today is not even remotely the same as 100 catches in 1990. JMO.
 
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PapaL said:
I get that he wanted a QB, we all did. It is my opinion and from the looks of it, the organizations opinion, that there was not a franchise QB to be taken #1 that year. Should they have Bortles to make AJ happy? It's feeling like AJ was more concerned about AJ than the team.
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Really, I was just pointing that out because it was said that he didn't say anything while he was here. I mean...He kind of did...He and Schaub had the heated moment on the sideline...He said he wanted a first round QB from this past draft...He was going to hold out...there was talk about trading him last year...I mean...This was stuff we could see...That doesn't even take into account things that were said in private.

I get that his main gripe is the last 2 years but he can't sit here talking about great Luck is how he wished he would have had him all long. We all wish we could have had the #1 pick when a Luck or Manning were available. Those are the breaks. Maybe he can team up with Cam and they can put their pouty faces on together.
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I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for having that opinion. It's really just not that big of a deal to me since I share much of his frustration.
 
Double Barrel said:
And fwiw, J.J. Watt gets into the HoF before A.J. Voters are wise to the bloated numbers of QBs and WRs in this modern arena-league version of the NFL. 100 catches today is not even remotely the same as 100 catches in 1990. JMO.
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Considering A.J. will be eligible 5-10 years before Watt I'd put money on Dre getting in first.

And besides his gaudy stats, the eye test alone singles him out as the greatest receiver of his generation, and in the discussion for GOAT at the position.
 
Am I reading these posts right? Some of you think AJ could or should be in discussion as the best WR in NFL history? Now that is hilarious.
 
texan279 said:
Am I reading these posts right? Some of you think AJ could or should be in discussion as the best WR in NFL history? Now that is hilarious.
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I can make a legit argument that had Andre played with back to back HoF quarterbacks that it may not have even been a discussion.
 
infantrycak said:
I'll take that bet. No way AJ sits around for 8+ years of eligibility before getting in. In fact, I bet he gets in 5 years after leaving the game barring a freakish class.
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No desire to bet, because I think A.J. will eventually get in. As far as timetable, I can see him in before J.J. due to 1) length of J.J.'s career will most likely be longer than A.J. eligibility, 2) John McClain's influence, 3) first player eligible for a relatively new expansion team.

However, based on the national conversation about receivers in general, I would not be surprised if it takes awhile and he has to wait to get in. The fact that he has put up his numbers with average at best QBs speaks to both his elite talent, but also speaks about the pass-easy era that is today's NFL.

I do not think it is a first ballot lock down. There are a lot of elite receivers ahead of him waiting to get in, and based on trends, there tends to be a logjam at the position.
 
texan279 said:
How can you base an argument on what ifs? No one knows what he would have done playing with any other quarterbacks.
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Because I can use my own eyes to see that Andre could do things unique to others at his position and was only held back from more statistical accomplishments because of the other end of his battery. Andre has without doubt, in my opinion, been one of the best few wr's to ever play this game.
 
Double Barrel said:
I do not think it is a first ballot lock down. There are a lot of elite receivers ahead of him waiting to get in, and based on trends, there tends to be a logjam at the position.
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We're talking 7 or 8 years from now. I don't think there will be a logjam by then. Owens is eligible this year, Moss in 2 years. I expect they and probably Marvin Harrison (of these guys being discussed, Marvin is the one I see maybe having to wait the longest) will be in by the time AJ becomes eligible. Calvin Johnson most likely won't be eligible until 3-5 years after AJ. Larry Fitzgerald looks like the only guy he may be up against. Who else would stand in his way?
 
Cris Carter had to wait 6 years after eligibility. Andre Reed waited 8 years. Tim Brown 5 years. These three guys should have been first ballot, IMO, but the trend has been for voters to make receivers wait.

In recent years, the Hall of Fame’s selection committee has reacted to its wide-receiver dilemma either by ignoring the position or by disregarding advanced stats when the committee does deign to induct those who played it. (Until Reed and Cris Carter were tapped in the last two elections, the Hall had only taken seven receivers since 2000, a number that included the controversial selection of Lynn Swann.) But Reed and Carter’s inductions signal that the WR logjam has become too much to ignore — and the tide of qualified receivers is only going to keep surging.

Source
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Potential WRs on future ballots before A.J. is eligible (not saying they are better/worse than A.J., but rater will be on the ballots before him): Holt, Bruce, Harrison, Moss, Owens, Ward, Wayne, Sharp...just to name some that come to mind.

A.J.'s problem is TDs. He's 58th on the all time list.
 
Double Barrel said:
A.J.'s problem is TDs. He's 58th on the all time list.
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Aside from the people who watched him week in and week out, voters are going to rely on stats, championships, playoff performances, and anecdotes. I've pointed out a guy a few times on here that I think poses a little bit of a problem for AJ, and that's Torry Holt. Guy hasn't gotten a sniff of the Hall, had comparable stats through the same points in their careers, and has a ring, plus good performances in the playoffs. He also has more TDs. If a guy like that can't get a sniff, then you're really hanging your hat on locals telling you what a phenomenal player AJ was and how his talent was wasted, and how his QBs were crap, blah blah blah. Voters aren't going to hear it, at least not right away. You want to know another super dominating player that was one of the greatest all time that's not getting into the Hall? Dr. Doom. Everytime I see all this optimism about AJ getting in, I can't help but think of Brazile. I have no faith in the voters to do much beyond look at stats and remember spectacular moments.
 
Double Barrel said:
Potential WRs on future ballots before A.J. is eligible (not saying they are better/worse than A.J., but rater will be on the ballots before him): Holt, Bruce, Harrison, Moss, Owens, Ward, Wayne, Sharp...just to name some that come to mind.
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eriadoc said:
I've pointed out a guy a few times on here that I think poses a little bit of a problem for AJ, and that's Torry Holt. Guy hasn't gotten a sniff of the Hall, had comparable stats through the same points in their careers, and has a ring, plus good performances in the playoffs. He also has more TDs.
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I'm not sure Holt or Bruce ever get in (especially Bruce). I think they are going to get knocked for being products of the offense. As I said above, I expect Harrison, Moss and Owens to all be in by the time AJ is up for consideration.

Sterling Sharpe? - not going to make it. Hell he's been eligible for 16 years already. Shannon Sharpe is already in.

I think AJ easily gets in over Ward and Wayne if they are all considered at one time.

Actually doubt Ward gets in at all. He never led the league in a single statistical category. And I think he'll have the opposite problem than what is possibly a plus for AJ - some already feel there are too many Steelers in the Hall. AJ may benefit from an urge to put the 1st Texan in.

Aside from the people who watched him week in and week out, voters are going to rely on stats, championships, playoff performances, and anecdotes.

If a guy like that can't get a sniff, then you're really hanging your hat on locals telling you what a phenomenal player AJ was and how his talent was wasted, and how his QBs were crap, blah blah blah. Voters aren't going to hear it, at least not right away
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I think we're a little past the NFL having significant "local" knowledge. For the past 2-3 years the broadcasters and talking heads have routinely appended AJ's name to "future hall of famer Andre Johnson." Not "likely" "probable" etc.

But hey, all speculation.
 
Mollywhopper said:
Because I can use my own eyes to see that Andre could do things unique to others at his position and was only held back from more statistical accomplishments because of the other end of his battery. Andre has without doubt, in my opinion, been one of the best few wr's to ever play this game.
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Held back? Really? A quote from PapaL earlier in this thread.....

"He must have cried all the way to the Probowl in 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013. Must have been tossing himself the ball in 2008 and 2009 when he lead the league is receiving yards."

Andre Johnson being discussed as the "GOAT" is funny. Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Cris Carter, should all be mentioned when discussing the "GOAT" WR, not Andre Johnson.
 
texan279 said:
Held back? Really?

Andre Johnson being discussed as the "GOAT" is funny. Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Cris Carter, should all be mentioned when discussing the "GOAT" WR, not Andre Johnson.
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Yes pretty obviously held back. Dude spent 4 years with David Carr throwing him the ball.

One of these is not like the others:

Jerry Rice - 2 hall of fame QBs, 14 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.
Terrell Owens - hall of fame QB, 9 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.
Marvin Harrison - hall of fame QB, 10 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.
Randy Moss - hall of fame QB, 9 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.
Cris Carter - 9 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.

AJ - 2 seasons of pro-bowl QB play (very loosely defined).
 
texan279 said:
Held back? Really? A quote from PapaL earlier in this thread.....

"He must have cried all the way to the Probowl in 2004, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013. Must have been tossing himself the ball in 2008 and 2009 when he lead the league is receiving yards."

Andre Johnson being discussed as the "GOAT" is funny. Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Cris Carter, should all be mentioned when discussing the "GOAT" WR, not Andre Johnson.
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You are aware of what the words held and back actually mean in a sentence, yes? And you're further aware of the qb/team situation Dre was saddled with for much of his career in comparison with the guys you listed, yes? Joining an expansion team with a dud qb that would all be overhauled twice in his tenure just begins to describe how held back he was, especially versus what those guys were fortunate enough to work with, much as cak listed. This isn't all that hard to break down really, don't know why you're crossed up.

Those things being equal the only guy more physically gifted on your list than Dre would be perhaps Moss, and he's about as complete a receiver as you're making an argument. Like I said earlier I don't hesitate to put A.J. as one of the top few to ever play wideout, and once you're in those few it can really be splitting hairs, so ok. But he's there, people who've watched him believe so, and people in the game believe so. I'm not sure what about his game you feel keeps him from belonging in that very elite.
 
infantrycak said:
Yes pretty obviously held back. Dude spent 4 years with David Carr throwing him the ball.

One of these is not like the others:

Jerry Rice - 2 hall of fame QBs, 14 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.
Terrell Owens - hall of fame QB, 9 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.
Marvin Harrison - hall of fame QB, 10 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.
Randy Moss - hall of fame QB, 9 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.
Cris Carter - 9 seasons of pro-bowl QB play.

AJ - 2 seasons of pro-bowl QB play (very loosely defined).
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Steve Largent played 14 seasons, had 2 starting QB's throw to him his entire career, Jim Zorn and Dave Krieg. Tim Brown played 17 seasons, starting QB's he played with his entire career Jeff Hostetler, Jeff George, Rich Gannon, Brian Griese, Jay Schroeder, and Steve Beuerlein.
 
Mollywhopper said:
You are aware of what the words held and back actually mean in a sentence, yes? And you're further aware of the qb/team situation Dre was saddled with for much of his career in comparison with the guys you listed, yes? Joining an expansion team with a dud qb that would all be overhauled twice in his tenure just begins to describe how held back he was, especially versus what those guys were fortunate enough to work with, much as cak listed. This isn't all that hard to break down really, don't know why you're crossed up.

Those things being equal the only guy more physically gifted on your list than Dre would be perhaps Moss, and he's about as complete a receiver as you're making an argument. Like I said earlier I don't hesitate to put A.J. as one of the top few to ever play wideout, and once you're in those few it can really be splitting hairs, so ok. But he's there, people who've watched him believe so, and people in the game believe so. I'm not sure what about his game you feel keeps him from belonging in that very elite.
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Never said he wasn't/isn't good or elite, only thing I ever said was he is not the greatest WR of all time.
 
texan279 said:
Never said he wasn't/isn't good or elite, only thing I ever said was he is not the greatest WR of all time.
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And like I said he's amongst that tip of the spear of who's the best.

Rice had two HoF quarterbacks, and more power to him for that as I don't doubt he would have been great without them, but it does make the barometer wonky. Moss was likely the most physically gifted receiver ever, but his give a sh*t couldn't be counted on from one play to the next, much less throughout his career.

That leaves everybody else, and A.J.'s ability to run all the routes, block anyone and everywhere, run after the catch like a tank with a Ferrari engine, and go get the ball like no one else I've ever seen makes me take him over those everybody else without much more discussion necessary.

Factoring in who they played with, skillset, ability, and determination, between Rice, Moss, and Andre a legit good discussion could be had. In my opinion he's right there.
 
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Meh! I loved AJ who is the greatest Houston Texan in Texans history! That said, he's been unhappy over the last two seasons and was due to make a lot of money. A lot of money that the Texans couldn't afford. The Texans signed him to a deal that would've secured his retirement in Houston.

Andre, It's time to move on and not talk Schyte!.. Look forward to seeing you twice this season. As much as I've loved you as a Texan, Know that I'm a Texan fan - FIRST!! It's all about the name on the front of the jersey - NOT - the back of the jersey!!

Indy had to say goodbye to Payton.. We say goodbye to you AJ... Good luck (and God Bless). We love you but, AND THIS IS A BIG BUTT (and I cannot lie) WE'RE GONNA KICK THE COLTS ASS!!!
 
AJ reminds me of the runningback on varsity blues, aside from race being the issue. 'Anytime we're inside the 20 we hand it to a white boy'. Same with Kubiak and Capers, though their mantra was more 'inside the 20 we work inside-out'. One quote from Andre will stick with me forever. Regarding a touchdown reception where he motioned to a TE position in a goalline play: 'I was supposed to block on this play, but I knew I'd be open so I ran a route anyways'. Andre would've had 20+ more touchdowns if given half a chance in the redzone. Instead, as the most dangerous weapon on the field, and with run-first coaches calling the plays, he was little more than a decoy.

Even with the handicaps he faced - quarterback, playcalling, Schaub's underthrows, no complimentary receivers, etc etc. AJ was still the single best receiver in football for the better part of his career. For me that's the definition of the Hall of Fame. From 2004-2013, nearly an entire decade, Andre's been the best at his position across that span.
 
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To the recent discussion, I have no problem with Andre talking a little. 'Quiet types' tend to get considerably more chatty when they're happy. Being with an old and close Miami friend (Gore), surrounded by high level receivers, a coach he loves, and a quarterback who looks to be one of the greatest before he turns 30 - I'd be smiling and answering questions too.
 
To clarify my perspectives..

1) I think A.J. SHOULD be a first ballot HoF. This is my personal opinion.

2) Based on trends at the position, I think he will end up waiting because of the inherent bias of voters.

3) I only mentioned HoF in connection with the little circus act that teams pull when players sign a one day contract in order to "retire as a Houston Texan." I think it is pure cheese, disingenuous, and nothing but marketing malarkey. And the ONLY reason the Texans would do it is because A.J. is a HoF-caliber player.

4) Finally, as great as A.J. has been, he is no longer the greatest player in Texans history. He's no. 2 to J.J. Watt, who clearly has the potential to be one of the greatest at his position in NFL history, especially in light that he plays in a day and age when defense has been hampered by offense-friendly rule changes. J.J. has already set a record never before seen in NFL history with 2 x 20+ sack seasons. A.J., as great as he was, is still behind quite a few other WRs in NFL history as far as greatness.
 
Double Barrel said:
A.J., as great as he was, is still behind quite a few other WRs in NFL history as far as greatness.
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I think saying behind a few is a fair statement/opinion. BUT I think this is going to be a very interesting couple of years to see what he does with a perennial straight up pro-bowl QB many expect to be on a HoF path. Even one double digit TD season would put a giant * on his prior low TD total.
 
Double Barrel said:
A.J., as great as he was, is still behind quite a few other WRs in NFL history as far as greatness.
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Quite a few? Can you clarify this? I can see where 2 former players and 1 current would even be in the conversation as better than AJ. I think that he is the overall greatest WR.
 
JB said:
Quite a few? Can you clarify this? I can see where 2 former players and 1 current would even be in the conversation as better than AJ. I think that he is the overall greatest WR.
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Obviously Jerry Rice at no. 1.

After that, and this is just my perspective, I'd put ahead of A.J. in both talent and career: Michael Irvin, Randy Moss, and Terrell Owens. These four are arguable G.O.A.T.S. for a variety of reasons.

Then you've got guys like Steve Largent (8 x 1000 yard seasons in 9 years + 100 TD catches, contrast to A.J. having 7 x 1000+ seasons in 12 years and 64 TDs.) I could list several in this category. Not saying they are better/worse than A.J., but this is the company that he's in when you look at numbers, which is all we have to go on. And many of these guys, like Largent, played in an NFL that did not have proverbial protective bubbles around offensive players.

Again, this is not to debate better/worse, but rather comparisons. J.J. has very few that could be put in his league. In just four seasons, you might be able to come up with 5-6 all time NFL greats that go with him, and I'd say he's better than some of them.

WRs, especially in today's league, are getting bloated numbers because the league has juiced the offensive side of the ball. That's just honest analysis and must be accounted for when comparing numbers from different decades.

I understand it's skating on thin ice to try to be objective about Andre Johnson in a Texans forum. I get it. But, he's not a Texan anymore. So all I'm trying to do it remove the typical emotional ties to one of our great players and look at it from a big picture perspective of how the rest of the world perceives it. NOBODY outside of Texansland perceives him as overall greatest WR in the history of the NFL.
 
Double Barrel said:
Then you've got guys like Steve Largent (8 x 1000 yard seasons in 9 years + 100 TD catches, contrast to A.J. having 7 x 1000+ seasons in 12 years and 64 TDs.) I could list several in this category. Not saying they are better/worse than A.J., but this is the company that he's in when you look at numbers, which is all we have to go on. And many of these guys, like Largent, played in an NFL that did not have proverbial protective bubbles around offensive players.
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Despite being in the Hall of Fame, I think Largent is still under-appreciated by NFL fans. What he did, when he did it, where he did it, with what physical talent and with what QBs, is pretty amazing. He's one of my all-time favorite players and the reason I started casually following the Seahawks in the early '80s.
 
Double Barrel said:
Then you've got guys like Steve Largent (8 x 1000 yard seasons in 9 years + 100 TD catches, contrast to A.J. having 7 x 1000+ seasons in 12 years and 64 TDs.)
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Man that is some awful hinky accounting (and it was actually a 10 year stretch to get 8) throwing out Largent's early and late years but not AJ's. Bottom line is 8 in 14 v. 7 in 12 so far.

I don't have any problem with your list otherwise.

Jerry Rice is Jerry Rice.

Michael Irvin, TO and AJ are very similar guys.

Moss - I just can't see having a lazy one-trick pony as GOAT.

eriadoc said:
Despite being in the Hall of Fame, I think Largent is still under-appreciated by NFL fans.
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Maybe so but I don't recall him ever being in a conversation for best WR of his day. Seems like to be in the GOAT conversation that would be a prerequisite.
 
infantrycak said:
Man that is some awful hinky accounting (and it was actually a 10 year stretch to get 8) throwing out Largent's early and late years but not AJ's. Bottom line is 8 in 14 v. 7 in 12 so far.
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The way I read it with Largent was that he had 8 x 1000 yard seasons in 9 seasons (1978-1986...count 'em = 9). Yeah, his total career was 14 seasons, but his 8 prime seasons (1000+ yards) were in 9. That's impressive, especially in a day and age when WRs were fair game and did not have protective ref bubbles around them. "Going across the middle" meant something during Largent's career. Today that term is meaningless.

Not meaning to sway numbers, but only mentioned A.J.'s full career because he's still playing and might not be done posting 1000 yard season. (I hope he's done considering his current team, but iiwii.)

As far as Moss, might have been a "one trick pony", but that one trick is better that 99.9% of all other WRs bag of tricks. The dude had so much raw talent that if he'd had Rice's work ethic, he'd easily be considered GOAT above Rice. Even as it was, his numbers are still awesome. 156 TDs with the QBs he had? We talk about A.J. having below-average-to-solid, but what did Moss have outside of his one season with Brady? And when coupled with a GOAT QB, he only set the single season WR TD record. That's all.
 
Digging around on this I've found a couple of not-official sources saying T.O. and Moss had 50" verticals... that can't be right, can it?
 
Double Barrel said:
The way I read it with Largent was that he had 8 x 1000 yard seasons in 9 seasons (1978-1986...count 'em = 9).
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My bad, I looked at probowls instead of 1000 yds.

Yeah, his total career was 14 seasons, but his 8 prime seasons (1000+ yards) were in 9. That's impressive, especially in a day and age when WRs were fair game and did not have protective ref bubbles around them.
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It is impressive and I get what you say about yardage inflation but still don't believe all 1000 yd seasons are created equal. Largent never topped 1300 yds. AJ has topped 1400 4 times with 3 being just shy of 1600. Jerry Rice put up AJ type numbers in Largent's era. This is where my point about being dominant in your era comes in - Largent in my recollection was never considered the man while AJ was.

Also on the yardage inflation issue - it's not like we're talking about AJ being with Manning or Brees in offenses routinely knocking out 4500-5500 yds of passing. Under Carr, Schaub's 1st season & last year The Texans were in or under the 3500 yd ballpark Largent played most of his career in.

As far as Moss, might have been a "one trick pony", but that one trick is better that 99.9% of all other WRs bag of tricks. The dude had so much raw talent that if he'd had Rice's work ethic, he'd easily be considered GOAT above Rice.
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But he didn't have Rice, AJ, TO, or Irvin's work ethic. And that unlike the QB issue is 100% on him.

Even as it was, his numbers are still awesome. 156 TDs with the QBs he had? We talk about A.J. having below-average-to-solid, but what did Moss have outside of his one season with Brady?
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3.25 seasons with Brady for 50 of those TDs.

Also had probowl seasons with Cunningham and Culpepper (including the season he led the league in passing and was considered for MVP) - total of 8 probowl QB seasons for him. I'd say that is a little more than Schaub's backdoor 2.
 
Playoffs said:
Digging around on this I've found a couple of not-official sources saying T.O. and Moss had 50" verticals... that can't be right, can it?
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This says the NFL combine vertical record was tied this year at 45" - link.

This article matches my recollection that TO's combine performance was not great (my impression back then being AJ was a faster more athletic TO):

Calico put up better numbers at the combine. Calico ran a 4.34-second 40-yard dash, while Owens ran a 4.64 in 1996. Calico's vertical leap is 38 inches; Owens's was 33. Calico is also almost an inch taller than Owens.
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Link

Johnson was timed at between 4.42-4.48, according to three scouts, in his first 40-yard dash. On the second, he ran between 4.37-4.40, scouts said. He also recorded a 41-inch vertical jump, a long jump of 10-feet, 9-inches, and a time of about 4.10 seconds in the short shuttle drill.
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Link
 
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infantrycak said:
But he didn't have Rice, AJ, TO, or Irvin's work ethic. And that unlike the QB issue is 100% on him.

3.25 seasons with Brady for 50 of those TDs.

Also had probowl seasons with Cunningham and Culpepper (including the season he led the league in passing and was considered for MVP) - total of 8 probowl QB seasons for him. I'd say that is a little more than Schaub's backdoor 2.
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I did not realize that Moss had been with NE for that long, but then looked and realized one year was with Matt Cassel. All that said, the dude was still an elite WR for most of his career, especially in terms of raw talent. I have seen quite a few pro football historians that consider Moss the greatest in just pure physical talent. Heck, when you've got guys like Bill Belichick and Cris Carter saying the same thing, it's got to account for something. Randy Moss Highlights

That aside, the original answer was in response to JB's question that he could not think of many WRs when I said a few. It's all relative, of course, but numbers are numbers and the rest of the analysis is subjective opinion.

Sure, A.J. could have done better with a better QB, but doesn't that play into the debate, as well? Most of these elite WRs were not content with average-at-best QBs, but A.J. chose to stay with an expansion team for the majority of his career, so while Moss' attitude may have prevented him from reaching his full potential, the reality is also that A.J.'s complacency prevented him from reaching his full potential. Big picture stuff, for sure, but I've never argued that A.J. is not elite. Rather, public/media perception, especially those that vote for HoF, might not share our comprehension of his career.
 
infantrycak said:
This says the NFL combine vertical record was tied this year at 45" - link.

This article matches my recollection that TO's combine performance was not great (my impression back then being AJ was a faster more athletic TO):

Link

Link
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Yeah, 45" sounds more like it.

And AJ did 41" at 230 lbs, too.

I had a chance to ask him and he said he ran in the 4.3s back then. That's damn fast for that weight at that time.
 
Double Barrel said:
Sure, A.J. could have done better with a better QB, but doesn't that play into the debate, as well? Most of these elite WRs were not content with average-at-best QBs, but A.J. chose to stay with an expansion team for the majority of his career, so while Moss' attitude may have prevented him from reaching his full potential, the reality is also that A.J.'s complacency prevented him from reaching his full potential.
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That's a pretty peculiar way of looking at it. I always viewed it as his wanting to see the expansion team that drafted him grow into a winner while being an anti-Diva WR in an obnoxious Diva era. Much less of complacency and more of driven to win with who brought him into the league.
 
Playoffs said:
Yeah, 45" sounds more like it.

And AJ did 41" at 230 lbs, too.

I had a chance to ask him and he said he ran in the 4.3s back then. That's damn fast for that weight at that time.
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Fairly early on here, he said at one point that during college in his track days and at lighter weight (about 215 lbs iirc) his personal best ever was 4.26.

One of the reasons I discount all the talk about AJ slowing down is because he started out that fast. AJ "slowing down" substantially puts him into the range TO and Rice started out (and inevitably slowed from).
 
Mollywhopper said:
That's a pretty peculiar way of looking at it. I always viewed it as his wanting to see the expansion team that drafted him grow into a winner while being an anti-Diva WR in an obnoxious Diva era. Much less of complacency and more of driven to win with who brought him into the league.
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Just food for thought, nothing more. I dig A.J. and have already stated my thoughts on his career, talent, and HoF status.

These things I mention are not to denigrate the player, but rather issues that could be talked about when he is eligible.
 
Playoffs said:
Yeah the only "slowing" as explained to me by Dr CND was when they cut his hamstring tendon, and that just limited acute angle stop-start.
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And I think he redoubled his route refinement to come back from that. Dude put up 1598 yds the next season and his highest total of 20+ yd receptions.
 
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Double Barrel said:
To clarify my perspectives..

1) I think A.J. SHOULD be a first ballot HoF. This is my personal opinion.

2) Based on trends at the position, I think he will end up waiting because of the inherent bias of voters.

3) I only mentioned HoF in connection with the little circus act that teams pull when players sign a one day contract in order to "retire as a Houston Texan." I think it is pure cheese, disingenuous, and nothing but marketing malarkey. And the ONLY reason the Texans would do it is because A.J. is a HoF-caliber player.

4) Finally, as great as A.J. has been, he is no longer the greatest player in Texans history. He's no. 2 to J.J. Watt, who clearly has the potential to be one of the greatest at his position in NFL history, especially in light that he plays in a day and age when defense has been hampered by offense-friendly rule changes. J.J. has already set a record never before seen in NFL history with 2 x 20+ sack seasons. A.J., as great as he was, is still behind quite a few other WRs in NFL history as far as greatness.
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first ballot ?

Did the NFL change their selection process? Again?
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/selectionprocess.aspx
 
ObsiWan said:
What point were you trying to make?
DB said it was his opinion that AJ should get into the Hall during his initial eligibility opportunity. That's what "first ballot" means to informed football fans.
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That's actually what uninformed fans think. I was simply picking at him for adding to the confusion. Most of you must think I'm some sourpuss when I'm picking in good humor. I guess that also amuses me.
 
Marshall said:
That's actually what uninformed fans think. I was simply picking at him for adding to the confusion. Most of you must think I'm some sourpuss when I'm picking in good humor. I guess that also amuses me.
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You failed to communicate where "first ballot" does not mean ]what I said it meant. Nothing in your link addresses the term "first ballot".
 
ObsiWan said:
What point were you trying to make?
DB said it was his opinion that AJ should get into the Hall during his initial eligibility opportunity. That's what "first ballot" means to informed football fans.
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yep. Thanks for that. :thumbup

In spite of the mind-numbing babbling of the obtuse, the rest of us in the modern world understand the lexicon and what it means:

Examples for the dimwitted:

From NFL.com: Which current NFL stars are first-ballot HOFers?

From CBS Sports: Examining whether Troy Polamalu will be a first-ballot Hall of Famer

From Bleacher Report: Current NFL Players Who Should Be 1st-Ballot Hall of Famers




 
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