2019 1.23 TYTUS HOWARD OT Alabama State

[banned1976]

So how many of these clubhouse lawyers would have howled if we traded up one spot by giving up a third rounder? And if we traded up sooner, how much sooner? Price would be higher and another dynamic would be involved...would we pick a T or some other available player with that higher pick? If these guys were fairly equal on their board and they wanted a T they made the correct choice.

I would not have.

Gaine and OB bought themselves at least 2 more years of job security by drafting “upside” prospects that aren’t ready for the NFL (how long will it take Devlin to get Scharping and Howard ready, I wonder). Good for them, hopefully it works out for the best. I’m just a fan, I can sit and watch Watson run for his life for a few more years. Maybe even make a little money on the side on the over/under number of times he gets sacked annually. No reason I should suffer.

I’d set the number of 58 for 2019, any takers on the under?

PS - I usually state my point and move on. But I find the Texans draft to be borderline malfeasance. I can only dream this is BoB and Gaine’s last one but I know that’s too much to ask.

 

[steelbtexan]

There is also a considerable amount of luck involved as well.

Why do you say that?

Good GM's prepare for anything and target specific groupings of players. Sometimes you have to trade u

There is also a considerable amount of luck involved as well.

Yet the same GM's seem to get lucky on an almost yearly basis.

Ever ask yourself why?

 

[Texansphan]

Maybe not higher, probably a better fit. If Dillard made it to 23 & the Texans still picked Howard, I could see going down that rabbit hole. But he wasn't so it's a moot point

Heh, imagine if that happened - there would be exploded heads all over Houston!
Mine would have been one of them.
Perhaps Philly did us a solid after all.

 

[thunderkyss]

People here loved using a 4th for DT and using a 2nd to get rid of osweiler. Not to mention all the picks for Nix and Strong.

If anything people are too positive

I don't know anybody who liked giving up a 2nd to deal Oz...

You're trying to hard.

 

[steelbtexan]

So how many of these clubhouse lawyers would have howled if we traded up one spot by giving up a third rounder? And if we traded up sooner, how much sooner? Price would be higher and another dynamic would be involved...would we pick a T or some other available player with that higher pick? If these guys were fairly equal on their board and they wanted a T they made the correct choice.

I like Warring alot, but would've gladly given him up to get Dillard.

Gaine disagrees and we will see who's right.

Just remember this yrs draft during this time next yr when Gaine says he's open to trading up or down he's lying. He hasn't made 1 trade on draft days in 2 yrs.

 

[thunderkyss]

I’d set the number of 58 for 2019, any takers on the under?

Wow. 58

That's 4 less than he was sacked in 2018.

7 more sacks than Russell Wilson was sacked in 2018.

 

[Texansphan]

I would not have.

Gaine and OB bought themselves at least 2 more years of job security by drafting “upside” prospects that aren’t ready for the NFL (how long will it take Devlin to get Scharping and Howard ready, I wonder). Good for them, hopefully it works out for the best. I’m just a fan, I can sit and watch Watson run for his life for a few more years. Maybe even make a little money on the side on the over/under number of times he gets sacked annually. No reason I should suffer.

I’d set the number of 58 for 2019, any takers on the under?

PS - I usually state my point and move on. But I find the Texans draft to be borderline malfeasance. I can only dream this is BoB and Gaine’s last one but I know that’s too much to ask.

There's more to sack counts than olines.
Watson knows he has to get rid of the ball sooner.
O'Brien also wants to get that ground game going and both these elements will help.

 

[AngryNateFTW]

If we had used a 3rd to trade up one spot everyone would have raged saying that nobody was even targeting Dillard and there was no reason to "secure" the pick.

It's probably the same ones that are upset that we sat tight. No pleasing you.

 

[steelbtexan]

There's more to sack counts than olines.
Watson knows he has to get rid of the ball sooner.
O'Brien also wants to get that ground game going and both these elements will help.

The run game sucked too if you take out Watson's runs.

 

[TheKDog]

I don't know anybody who liked giving up a 2nd to deal Oz...

You're trying to hard.

I remember arguing with people about it. They said it was worth it to get the cancer out of the clubhouse plus it cleared caproom.

Guys like patdstat tried to say it led to Watson (it didn't).

People were pretty angry when I said it was a dumb trade. They just wanted to get rid of Brock

 

[TheKDog]

I would not have.

Gaine and OB bought themselves at least 2 more years of job security by drafting “upside” prospects that aren’t ready for the NFL (how long will it take Devlin to get Scharping and Howard ready, I wonder). Good for them, hopefully it works out for the best. I’m just a fan, I can sit and watch Watson run for his life for a few more years. Maybe even make a little money on the side on the over/under number of times he gets sacked annually. No reason I should suffer.

I’d set the number of 58 for 2019, any takers on the under?

PS - I usually state my point and move on. But I find the Texans draft to be borderline malfeasance. I can only dream this is BoB and Gaine’s last one but I know that’s too much to ask.

But if you think about it, it's borderline malfeasance since year 2. Year 1 he just didn't have time to mangle everything.

He gave us hoyer/mallet, dismantling of the OL, osweiler and the "speed draft", the 4-12 year that he got a pass on due to injuries, and almost getting Watson killed with his OL shuffling last year. Capped off with embarrassing playoff performances.

It's pretty mind boggling he's kept his job.

 

[Texansphan]

The run game sucked too if you take out Watson's runs.

Can't wait to see who wins out between Higdon and Crockett.
Higdon is the type of back you have to hit hard to bring down - he is so gifted with balance.
And he makes his bread and butter out of attempted arm tackles.

 

[DocBar]

You can always trade down from 23 or up from 54.

If Howard is there guy I dont have a problem with reaching for him. If Dillard was their guy and they settled for Howard that's another discussion.

If Howard was their guy, they didn't reach for him. It takes two to tango and the Texans obviously valued their picks more than any particular players on the board at 23. Every team the Texans talked to about moving up would know the Texans were trading up for OT and would play that to maximize the price for the Texans to move up or allow another team in the division to pony up that price to keep the Texans from getting their OT.

 

[DocBar]

But if you think about it, it's borderline malfeasance since year 2. Year 1 he just didn't have time to mangle everything.

He gave us hoyer/mallet, dismantling of the OL, osweiler and the "speed draft", the 4-12 year that he got a pass on due to injuries, and almost getting Watson killed with his OL shuffling last year. Capped off with embarrassing playoff performances.

It's pretty mind boggling he's kept his job.

I'm pretty sure Rick Smith gave us the speed draft and Oz. The line shuffling was due to injuries. I'm not an OB fan and would love to see a new HC ( I liked Baby Shannahan a lot and would pay Harbaugh a king's ransom to leave Michigan. I'd also look hard at Dabo Sweeney)but I also try to be fair in placing blame. OB was Smith's guy due to Smith being GM before OB arrived. Brian Gaine is OBs guy due to OB being HC when Gaine was named GM.

 

[bah007]

But if you think about it, it's borderline malfeasance since year 2. Year 1 he just didn't have time to mangle everything.

He gave us hoyer/mallet, dismantling of the OL, osweiler and the "speed draft", the 4-12 year that he got a pass on due to injuries, and almost getting Watson killed with his OL shuffling last year. Capped off with embarrassing playoff performances.

It's pretty mind boggling he's kept his job.

It's pretty simple how he's kept his job. In five years he's won the division three times.

Like most fans, I don't feel that he has met expectations. And you can certainly argue that division championships don't mean much if you're just going to choke and get embarrassed in the playoffs.

But it's pretty obvious why he's still here.

 

[TheKDog]

It's pretty simple how he's kept his job. In five years he's won the division three times.

Like most fans, I don't feel that he has met expectations. And you can certainly argue that division championships don't mean much if you're just going to choke and get embarrassed in the playoffs.

But it's pretty obvious why he's still here.

Despite the offense though. It was won with defense along with luck that it was the weakest division in the nfl

 

[maverick512000]

I remember arguing with people about it. They said it was worth it to get the cancer out of the clubhouse plus it cleared caproom.

Guys like patdstat tried to say it led to Watson (it didn't).

People were pretty angry when I said it was a dumb trade. They just wanted to get rid of Brock

You're changing things to fit your version again, nobody was saying they liked it but some, think I might have been one, were saying they understood it and that it might be the lesser of two evils. People forget the lesser of two evils is still evil. Just because you understand something and even would do the same thing, not saying I would because we don't know all the details, that doesn't mean you like something.

Also there was a case to be made that it might have led to Watson if it was part of a larger, long term deal with Cleveland to move up. We did a lot of trading with Cleveland that year on a lot of things. Maybe RS just liked trading with Cleveland, maybe they were the ones willing to deal with us or maybe it was just one trade with multiple parts spread out over F/A and the draft. Just because you don't believe something to be true doesn't make it any less possible.

 

[TheKDog]

I'm pretty sure Rick Smith gave us the speed draft and Oz. The line shuffling was due to injuries. I'm not an OB fan and would love to see a new HC ( I liked Baby Shannahan a lot and would pay Harbaugh a king's ransom to leave Michigan. I'd also look hard at Dabo Sweeney)but I also try to be fair in placing blame. OB was Smith's guy due to Smith being GM before OB arrived. Brian Gaine is OBs guy due to OB being HC when Gaine was named GM.

I'm aware he blamed Rick for everything as if he wasn't involved in free agency and the draft. The past two off-seasons with gaine show that he was the main decision maker all along

 

[infantrycak]

If Howard was their guy, they didn't reach for him.

There's the definition of circular definition.

 

[TheKDog]

You're changing things to fit your version again, nobody was saying they liked it but some, think I might have been one, were saying they understood it and that it might be the lesser of two evils. People forget the lesser of two evils is still evil. Just because you understand something and even would do the same thing, not saying I would because we don't know all the details, that doesn't mean you like something.

Also there was a case to be made that it might have led to Watson if it was part of a larger, long term deal with Cleveland to move up. We did a lot of trading with Cleveland that year on a lot of things. Maybe RS just liked trading with Cleveland, maybe they were the ones willing to deal with us or maybe it was just one trade with multiple parts spread out over F/A and the draft. Just because you don't believe something to be true doesn't make it any less possible.

We can go back and look at posts. And no it was a completely different transaction than the Watson one

 

[maverick512000]

We can go back and look at posts. And no it was a completely different transaction than the Watson one

We can, feel free. As to it being different possibly it was I never read anything that came out saying for sure the two weren't connected, to be fair I never read anything saying they were either, but then I stopped caring after we got Watson.

 

[maverick512000]

So you're saying he didn't play well his last year here? Do you know what his grades were?

Here's his career stats

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrooBr00.htm

I wouldn't say he didn't play well his last year, though after a year to get use to Philly he jumped a fair amount, but it wasn't as much about play as it was Texans were being told that he had a chronic issue that wasn't going to get better. He did drop off from his previous two years further supporting the idea that he was only going to go down not up. Even NBC sports, who rated the move an A-, said the biggest question with him was consistency.

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/the700level/grading-eagles-moves-og-brandon-brooks

That was the gamble Philly took, not could he play well, he had shown he could, but for how long could he play well. If anything I'd say it shows that Philly had better medical group looking at him than Texans did. There are a lot of dumb moves that we can put at the feet of BoB and RS but trusting in their medical staff when they say the guy is only going to get worse really isn't one of them.

 

[Dejaview]

I like Warring alot, but would've gladly given him up to get Dillard.

Gaine disagrees and we will see who's right.

Just remember this yrs draft during this time next yr when Gaine says he's open to trading up or down he's lying. He hasn't made 1 trade on draft days in 2 yrs.

In fairness he had zero draft capital last year. Because of that and the depleted roster he correctly wasn’t going to be cavalier with his choices if his board was favorable. In fairness given the OL he inherited last year with no 1 and 2 in his first draft I thought he didn’t embarrass himself. Henderson’s injury just made last year more of a nightmare. He doesn’t have anywhere near his team yet but he clearly has a vision that he seems focused on.

 

[TheKDog]

Here's his career stats

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrooBr00.htm

I wouldn't say he didn't play well his last year, though after a year to get use to Philly he jumped a fair amount, but it wasn't as much about play as it was Texans were being told that he had a chronic issue that wasn't going to get better. He did drop off from his previous two years further supporting the idea that he was only going to go down not up. Even NBC sports, who rated the move an A-, said the biggest question with him was consistency.

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/the700level/grading-eagles-moves-og-brandon-brooks

That was the gamble Philly took, not could he play well, he had shown he could, but for how long could he play well. If anything I'd say it shows that Philly had better medical group looking at him than Texans did. There are a lot of dumb moves that we can put at the feet of BoB and RS but trusting in their medical staff when they say the guy is only going to get worse really isn't one of them.

Even if Brooks sucked here and then was awesome in Philly, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the Texans coaching staff

 

[maverick512000]

Even if Brooks sucked here and then was awesome in Philly, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the Texans coaching staff

But he didn't suck here, his first two years he was top 5 and his last he didn't drop that much. Again it wasn't about his play on the field it was about the medical staff saying this guy is on a run away train downhill.

 

[TheKDog]

But he didn't suck here, his first two years he was top 5 and his last he didn't drop that much. Again it wasn't about his play on the field it was about the medical staff saying this guy is on a run away train downhill.

THat's not what they said. They said they couldn't find anything wrong with him when he kept getting sick before games. O'Brien the genius concluded it was an attitude problem and treated him like crap so he left.

 

[steelbtexan]

If Howard was their guy, they didn't reach for him. It takes two to tango and the Texans obviously valued their picks more than any particular players on the board at 23. Every team the Texans talked to about moving up would know the Texans were trading up for OT and would play that to maximize the price for the Texans to move up or allow another team in the division to pony up that price to keep the Texans from getting their OT.

Yep, it came down to was Gaine willing to pay the price to get Dillard.

Since he has never made a draft day trade it shouldn't surprise us that he settled for Howard.

Nothing has changed within the Texans org and I'm OK with the Howard pick if they truly believe in the pick. But if Howard busts they all should be fired. On another note, do you really trust Devlin to find the LT of the future. This pick reeks of being the smartest man in the room syndrome. Lets hope they truly were the smartest men in the room.

 

[steelbtexan]

THat's not what they said. They said they couldn't find anything wrong with him when he kept getting sick before games. O'Brien the genius concluded it was an attitude problem and treated him like crap so he left.

BOB trusted the medical staff

You criticize him for that?

SMH

 

[infantrycak]

BOB trusted the medical staff

You criticize him for that?

SMH

Yes. 2nd opinions are routine. Teams even get them just to reassure players. 'We can't find anything' is not an acceptable answer.

 

[TheKDog]

BOB trusted the medical staff

You criticize him for that?

SMH

No, I criticize him for thinking it was an attitude problem and treating Brooks like crap.

 

[DocBar]

Yep, it came down to was Gaine willing to pay the price to get Dillard.

Since he has never made a draft day trade it shouldn't surprise us that he settled for Howard.

Nothing has changed within the Texans org and I'm OK with the Howard pick if they truly believe in the pick. But if Howard busts they all should be fired. On another note, do you really trust Devlin to find the LT of the future. This pick reeks of being the smartest man in the room syndrome. Lets hope they truly were the smartest men in the room.

Pure speculation on your part. All accounts I've seen/heard point to the Texans knowing Howard was their guy since the Senior Bowl. You're just upset because Gaine doesn't frequent this MB and follow your sage advice on personnel matters.

 

[maverick512000]

THat's not what they said. They said they couldn't find anything wrong with him when he kept getting sick before games. O'Brien the genius concluded it was an attitude problem and treated him like crap so he left.

I suppose you are correct in that they didn't say he was a runaway train, that was a mistake on my part. Still your bias is showing in saying he was treated like crap. The idea that it was an attitude problem was reasonable just like if you have an employee that is always sick and calls in on Monday or Friday. I suppose in your mind O'Brien is also suppose to have the medical knowledge to see things that the doctors didn't see and know its an anxiety issue?

 

[TheKDog]

I suppose you are correct in that they didn't say he was a runaway train, that was a mistake on my part. Still your bias is showing in saying he was treated like crap. The idea that it was an attitude problem was reasonable just like if you have an employee that is always sick and calls in on Monday or Friday. I suppose in your mind O'Brien is also suppose to have the medical knowledge to see things that the doctors didn't see and know its an anxiety issue?

Brooks himself said he was treated like crap.

No, O'brien shouldn't be diagnosing guys as having attitude problems. Is he a psychologist?

 

[infantrycak]

I suppose you are correct in that they didn't say he was a runaway train, that was a mistake on my part. Still your bias is showing in saying he was treated like crap. The idea that it was an attitude problem was reasonable just like if you have an employee that is always sick and calls in on Monday or Friday. I suppose in your mind O'Brien is also suppose to have the medical knowledge to see things that the doctors didn't see and know its an anxiety issue?

Doesn't take a medical degree to know vomiting isn't an attitude problem. Also doesn't take one to say 'go see another Doc, we'll get this figured out.'

You guys are looking pretty ridiculous acting like NFL medical staffs are supposed to be independent, total care, infallible, fonts of all medical knowledge.

The infallible is particularly funny. CnD & others have been complaining about them for a decade and now they're a total defense.

 

[steelbtexan]

Yes. 2nd opinions are routine. Teams even get them just to reassure players. 'We can't find anything' is not an acceptable answer.

Agreed, but getting 2nd opinions isn't BOB's job.

That's something the medical staff or even Brooks needed to do.

Or atleast I'm not aware that BOB has a Medical degree.

If you want BOB to do this then expect worse coaching, unless he hires CnD.

 

[TheKDog]

Agreed, but getting 2nd opinions isn't BOB's job.

That's something the medical staff or even Brooks needed to do.

Or atleast I'm not aware that BOB has a Medical degree.

If you want BOB to do this then expect worse coaching, unless he hires CnD.

"It's not my job!"

I love this line

 

[infantrycak]

It takes a medical degree to get a 2nd opinion? That's news to just about everyone.

HC is responsible for everything affecting the team and losing a starter to an undiagnosed condition obviously warrants the 2 seconds of time to apply common sense and say go get a 2nd opinion.

 

[steelbtexan]

No, I criticize him for thinking it was an attitude problem and treating Brooks like crap.

I'm sure Brooks did have an attitude problem since he was sick and the Dr.'s told BOB nothing was wrong with Brooks. BOB saw Brooks as a guy he couldn't count on.

Nothing wrong at all with this style of mgmt.

 

[TheKDog]

I'm sure Brooks did have an attitude problem since he was sick and the Dr.'s told BOB nothing was wrong with Brooks. BOB saw Brooks as a guy he couldn't count on.

Nothing wrong at all with this style of mgmt.

Really? It led to our OL sucking. I'd say this style of mgmt sucks. Are you a psychologist?

 

[maverick512000]

Doesn't take a medical degree to know vomiting isn't an attitude problem. Also doesn't take one to say 'go see another Doc, we'll get this figured out.'

You guys are looking pretty ridiculous acting like NFL medical staffs are supposed to be independent, total care, infallible, fonts of all medical knowledge.

The infallible is particularly funny. CnD & others have been complaining about them for a decade and now they're a total defense.

Considering I said that "If anything it shows Philly had a better medical group than the Texans did." to me you are looking like you only read what you wanted to. No one anywhere said they were infallible or even good. I'm surprised to hear you say that an Org. or manager, in this case a coach, should tell someone to go see another doctor. When I worked in management and someone got hurt on the job we required them to see our doctor. They had the right to choose to see another but it was our doctor's evaluation that decisions were based on no matter what their personal doctor said. All that has been said is that its not on BoB to over rule the doctors evaluation. Companies I've worked at a manager can be fired for that.

Also yeah, vomiting proves nothing, we had a guy on site one time that never would work overtime and anytime it came up he suddenly got sick and, guess what, vomited. Right up until we caught him sticking his fingers down his throat to induce vomiting.

 

[steelbtexan]

Pure speculation on your part. All accounts I've seen/heard point to the Texans knowing Howard was their guy since the Senior Bowl. You're just upset because Gaine doesn't frequent this MB and follow your sage advice on personnel matters.

I could give 2 sh!ts about whether Gaine visits this MB.

I do care about getting the best players possible and Gaine failed this draft. IMHO Although I do like the rds 3-7 picks.Plus the Scharping pick.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong about Howard and Gaine/Devlin are right. Truth is I'm stained because I have very little faith in Devlin or his ability to identify/develop talent.

 

[steelbtexan]

Pure speculation on your part. All accounts I've seen/heard point to the Texans knowing Howard was their guy since the Senior Bowl. You're just upset because Gaine doesn't frequent this MB and follow your sage advice on personnel matters.

I could give 2 sh!ts about whether Gaine visits this MB.

I do care about getting the best players possible and Gaine failed this draft. IMHO Although I do like the rds 3-7 picks.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong about Howard and Gaine/Devlin are right. Truth is I'm stained because I have very little faith in Devlin or his ability to identify/develop talent.

Doesn't take a medical degree to know vomiting isn't an attitude problem. Also doesn't take one to say 'go see another Doc, we'll get this figured out.'

You guys are looking pretty ridiculous acting like NFL medical staffs are supposed to be independent, total care, infallible, fonts of all medical knowledge.

The infallible is particularly funny. CnD & others have been complaining about them for a decade and now they're a total defense.

True and it should've been on Brooks to get the 2nd opinion. It's his body and it was he was sick. Same as if you went to the Dr. and he misdiagnosed a condition, it would be on you to get a 2nd opinion.

This attitude really doesn't surprise me since you believe in socialist style of medical care. But know this, this isn't BOB's fault that Brooks was misdiagnosed and if you think otherwise then you're just flat out wrong.

 

[infantrycak]

Considering I said that "If anything it shows Philly had a better medical group than the Texans did." to me you are looking like you only read what you wanted to. No one anywhere said they were infallible or even good. I'm surprised to hear you say that an Org. or manager, in this case a coach, should tell someone to go see another doctor. When I worked in management and someone got hurt on the job we required them to see our doctor. They had the right to choose to see another but it was our doctor's evaluation that decisions were based on no matter what their personal doctor said. All that has been said is that its not on BoB to over rule the doctors evaluation. Companies I've worked at a manager can be fired for that.

Also yeah, vomiting proves nothing, we had a guy on site one time that never would work overtime and anytime it came up he suddenly got sick and, guess what, vomited. Right up until we caught him sticking his fingers down his throat to induce vomiting.

Your worker's comp get them certified healthy with the minimum in medical bills experience has zero application to the NFL. Small wonder you want to absolve management.

 

[steelbtexan]

Really? It led to our OL sucking. I'd say this style of mgmt sucks. Are you a psychologist?

I'm not a psychologist but have dealt with many employees like Brooks over the yrs. I've found the most prudent thing for my business is to cut bait with guys like this.

 

[infantrycak]

This attitude really doesn't surprise me since you believe in socialist style of medical care.

Lol, whenever you don't have a rebuttal you (falsely) whip out socialist.

But know this, this isn't BOB's fault that Brooks was misdiagnosed and if you think otherwise then you're just flat out wrong.

I don't blame OB for the lack of diagnosis. I blame him for the mismanagement of a team asset. HEAD coaches get involved in these decisions all the time.

 

[infantrycak]

I'm not a psychologist but have dealt with many employees like Brooks over the yrs. I've found the most prudent thing for my business is to cut bait with guys like this.

Ok this is getting beyond pathetic with you and maverick acting like this is some lazy worker issue. Anything to defend OB.

Did the game tape show a lazy player? Not in the least.

 

[Texansphan]

Yes. 2nd opinions are routine. Teams even get them just to reassure players. 'We can't find anything' is not an acceptable answer.

That would be a third opinion. His doctor and Texans doctor makes two.

 

[infantrycak]

That would be a third opinion. His doctor and Texans doctor makes two.

You know he went and got one?

 

[maverick512000]

Your worker's comp get them certified healthy with the minimum in medical bills experience has zero application to the NFL. Small wonder you want to absolve management.

Oh and your experience as a lawyer has much greater application. This after in earlier posts you disregarded what CnD said but I guess his experience has no application either. Level of arrogance is staggering. Also I'm not absolving anything, I got out of that job because I got tired of having to defend companies in these kind of things. You want to blame the Texans FO for hiring bad doctors, fine I'm right there with you, that part falls completely on them. What I disagree with is this idea that O'Brien should have been a rebel and ignored what the doctors said and told him to keep looking till they found something.

This isn't some Hollywood movie of the brave manager that bucks the system to protect the downtrodden little guy.

 

[TheKDog]

No one is disregarding what cnd said. The doctors gave a bad diagnosis, that doesn't mean Brooks has a bad attitude. O'Brien has trouble getting along with people, this isn't the only example