SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
Where's Butler? Is he on IR?
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Your opening day 53 man roster prediction.
- Thread starter Corrosion
- Start date
Where's Butler? Is he on IR?
Being reported he's out for the year.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I assume he's going on IR. As soon as I saw the injury, I figured he was on IR and now reports are starting to trickle in that he is.
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
Thanks Rey and Pencil Neck. Just found out about Butler.
Sorry about that Bleed Blu Red.
Sorry about that Bleed Blu Red.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
My updated list with Beck & Gardner making it.
QB: Schaub, Yates, Beck
RB: Foster, Tate, Forsett
FB: Casey, Norris
WR: AJ, KW, KMart, Jean, Posey
TE: OD, GG
LT: DB, Gardner
LG: Smith, Smith
C: Myers, Jones
RG: Caldwell, Brooks
RT: Newton
DE: Smith, Watt, Jamison, Crick
NT: Cody, Mitchell, Fangupo
OLB: Barwin, Reed, Braman, Mercilus
ILB: Cush, James, Dobbins, Alexander
CB: JJo, Jackson, McCain, Ball, Harris, Mcmanis
S: Manning, Quin, Demps, Nolan
LS: Weeks
P: Jones
K: Graham
KR: Holliday
---
QB: Schaub, Yates, Beck
RB: Foster, Tate, Forsett
FB: Casey, Norris
WR: AJ, KW, KMart, Jean, Posey
TE: OD, GG
LT: DB, Gardner
LG: Smith, Smith
C: Myers, Jones
RG: Caldwell, Brooks
RT: Newton
DE: Smith, Watt, Jamison, Crick
NT: Cody, Mitchell, Fangupo
OLB: Barwin, Reed, Braman, Mercilus
ILB: Cush, James, Dobbins, Alexander
CB: JJo, Jackson, McCain, Ball, Harris, Mcmanis
S: Manning, Quin, Demps, Nolan
LS: Weeks
P: Jones
K: Graham
KR: Holliday
---
Bleed_Blu_Red
Waterboy
It's cool that's what the forums for to get info
Arent we all ?!!? Thats half the fun of the prediction ....
I tell you , its been a fun offseason to be a Texan fan , much better than those dismal years of 6-10 or 2-14. Many of the guy's who get cut , especially from the secondary will end up on someone's roster.
Gonna be a tough decision with Grimes and Forsett .... they are loaded in the backfield.
DJ Bryant .... Hell of a find by Smith. Dont think there is room for him on the 53 but I sure hope he makes it to the PS.
Trycycle sticks , if not he's on someone elses roster and I personally chew Gary a new one. He's just too explosive not to keep. Damn did he really run half speed from the 30 and still score ?!
CB - Ive got to go with McManis and Ball over Carmichael.
Not sure they hold onto Keo .... Pleasant probably makes the PS.
Alexander probably sticks around .... at least until Sharpton is elegible to return.
Nading somehow stays .... He's too versatile , ILB/OLB and a very good ST player.
Man there will be some tough cuts made tonight ....
I didnt get to watch the second half tonight .... My DVR cut off right after the kickoff. Anyone know where I can find a full replay ???
Fangupo - He held up at the point of attack .... Just dont know if there is room for a 3rd DT/NT on this roster when they only play two downs.
speedfreek
All Pro
Now the waiting game. 24 hours to see who makes the team, another 24 hours to see which players are still available for the practice squad.
Nail biters all.
Suddenly o-line looks like a bigger need than WR did a few months ago..
TJ
Nail biters all.
Suddenly o-line looks like a bigger need than WR did a few months ago..
TJ
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I don't like what I see in Harris...to me, they should be looking at him hard.
srrono
All Pro
WR1 A Johnson K Martin L Jean
LT D Brown A Gardner
LG W Smith
C C Myers B Jones
RG A Caldwell B Brooks S Smith
RT D Newton
TE O Daniels G Graham
WR2 K Walter D Posey T Holliday
QB M Schaub T.J. Yates
RB A Foster B Tate J Forsett
FB J Casey Norris
DE J.J. Watt T Jamison
DT S Cody E Mitchell
DE A Smith J Crick
SLB B Reed B Braman J Nading
ILB B Cushing M Alexander
ILB B James T Dobbins
WLB C Barwin W Mercilus
LCB K Jackson S McManis B Harris
RCB J Joseph B McCain
SS D Manning Q Demps
FS G Quin T Nolan A Pleasent
PK S Graham
P D Jones
LS J Weeks
LT D Brown A Gardner
LG W Smith
C C Myers B Jones
RG A Caldwell B Brooks S Smith
RT D Newton
TE O Daniels G Graham
WR2 K Walter D Posey T Holliday
QB M Schaub T.J. Yates
RB A Foster B Tate J Forsett
FB J Casey Norris
DE J.J. Watt T Jamison
DT S Cody E Mitchell
DE A Smith J Crick
SLB B Reed B Braman J Nading
ILB B Cushing M Alexander
ILB B James T Dobbins
WLB C Barwin W Mercilus
LCB K Jackson S McManis B Harris
RCB J Joseph B McCain
SS D Manning Q Demps
FS G Quin T Nolan A Pleasent
PK S Graham
P D Jones
LS J Weeks
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
I am pretty sure they give him at least another year Vinny. Don't we usually keep high rds draft choices for a few years to see if they develop.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I agree, but watching Harris get lit up twice in that Aromashodu TD drive was maddening. Nolan didn't wrap up too well (on the Aromashodu TD) but Harris was the CB that let him run right by him. Harris looks awful and out of position or being run by too many times for my liking.
Harris was in zone on that play.
Are you talking about the TD play where Troy Nolan tried to tackle the wr like a fish?
If so i think he was in zone there. He uses a shuffle technique and he let's the wr run by him and it looks like he bit up on a shallow route, but when he saw the ball was thrown he turned an ran.
I'm going off memory here, so I could be completely off. I need to watch it again.
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
CB is one of the difficult position to learn IMO and it's better off for a player to sit his first year and gradually give him enough reps to learn the position. So, I ain't sweating just yet. Besides, the last play of the game by Harris was good. Harris didn't have OTA last year. I will hold my judge on Harris for at least another year.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Looked like Zone to me at the time. I thought that was bad safety play.
I'm blaming Keo. Even if he wasn't on the field at the time, I'm sure it was his fault somehow.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Off memory that was my impression as well. Looked liked Harris dropped him off and started looking for an interior receiver closer to the LOS.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012083055/2012/PRE4/vikings@texans#menu=highlights&tab=recap
Looks like match man to me; everybody (except the single deep safety Nolan) has a man.
That was Harris all the way.
Of course, Nolan didn't help by missing that tackle, but the catch was on Harris.
Last edited:
On Wright's 59-yd TD catch, IMO, it was also on Harris.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012083055/2012/PRE4/vikings@texans#menu=highlights&tab=recap
Even though it was zone, he needs to stretch it and get back.
He needs to read the #2 threat (the TE on his side).
Once he let the receiver gets a free outside release while the TE also gets upfield free in the middle, it's impossible for the Cover 2 safety to handle both threats.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012083055/2012/PRE4/vikings@texans#menu=highlights&tab=recap
Even though it was zone, he needs to stretch it and get back.
He needs to read the #2 threat (the TE on his side).
Once he let the receiver gets a free outside release while the TE also gets upfield free in the middle, it's impossible for the Cover 2 safety to handle both threats.
On the 76yd TD run, it was a combination of a lot of things.
The WOLB (68 R. Moore, I believe) went too far into the backfield and lost his C gap.
The WDE (72 Hunter) didn't maintain his B gap assignment; he was taken to the A gap by the RB and couldn't recover.
The RCB Harris was the force man, and he lost the edge; he needed to turn the runner in and not let him go to the side line like that.
On top of that, Eddie Pleasant missed the tackle, and it didn't help Keo.
I think his poor angle was due to (at least in part) his expectation of what Harris and Pleasant were about to do.
I don't think I'm going to blame Pleasant too much though.
If Harris had kept to the outside, I think he would have helped Pleasant make that tackle.
And Keo, of course, has never been known for his speed (he ran a 4.74 at the combine and 4.66 at his pro day).
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012083055/2012/PRE4/vikings@texans#menu=highlights&tab=recap
The WOLB (68 R. Moore, I believe) went too far into the backfield and lost his C gap.
The WDE (72 Hunter) didn't maintain his B gap assignment; he was taken to the A gap by the RB and couldn't recover.
The RCB Harris was the force man, and he lost the edge; he needed to turn the runner in and not let him go to the side line like that.
On top of that, Eddie Pleasant missed the tackle, and it didn't help Keo.
I think his poor angle was due to (at least in part) his expectation of what Harris and Pleasant were about to do.
I don't think I'm going to blame Pleasant too much though.
If Harris had kept to the outside, I think he would have helped Pleasant make that tackle.
And Keo, of course, has never been known for his speed (he ran a 4.74 at the combine and 4.66 at his pro day).
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012083055/2012/PRE4/vikings@texans#menu=highlights&tab=recap
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Not even close to man coverage. Rey nailed it. Harris is in a slow shuffle and never even attempts to keep up with the WR. He's 10 yds behind and inside the WR looking toward the QB when the ball is thrown. He clearly was not attempting man coverage.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
That could have been his mistake, though. He could have been playing zone when he was supposed to have been playing man. Just looking at Harris, it seems clear that he thought he was handing the WR off to the safety but he might not should have done that.
Looked like zone to me but I wasn't looking at what anyone else was doing on the play.
To me, it certainly looks like Man in cover 2 (I confused myself a little bit earlier thinking it was single deep safety).
This lies very well within the match-man that Wade employs often (but not all the times).
It allows the underneath defenders to get a jump on the nearest guy.
Notice that on top of the screen, the LCB went deep with the outside receiver
To the inside, the dime back (Keo, I believe) followed the TE to the right flat.
The lone LB (Dobbins, I think) jumped on the RB out of the backfield.
At the bottom of the screen, the RCB (Ball) started on the wide out.
However, as the wide out and the slot receiver ran a pattern that cross each other, Ball dropped his man and followed the slot receiver to the side line.
In the meantime, Harris turned to run with the wide out who ran the inside route.
It's true that the receiver ran to the post on a cover 2 beater, and that the 2 safeties should converge better (especially Nolan).
However, as Harris was trailing to the inside, the receiver stemmed first toward the pylon, Nolan had to defend the corner route first.
The post route remains for Harris to care for.
That is how I see it.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
That is entirely possible.
Then you need to have your eyes checked. Harris does a slow shuffle. His shoulders and eyes are never turned up field until the ball is in the air. He's jogging sideways not even looking at the WR. He clearly was not trying to stay with the WR. I mean are you really claiming he was trying to stay with that WR in man and is so incompetent he never looks at him and can only run half his speed? Seems an add position since he hung in receivers hip pockets many times in the game.
OK, let's do a process of elimination here.
1. If it was straight 5-2 zone, the LCB (on top of the screen) wouldn't drop deep that quickly, and the Dime Keo wouldn't drop out to the flat that far that quickly.
2. If it was a rotating cover 3, the LCB drops deep, but Demps needs to move to the middle; he didn't.
3. If it was cover 4 on the strong side, and cover 2 on the weak side (Harris' side), Demps would still have to move closer to the middle; he didn't.
1. If it was straight 5-2 zone, the LCB (on top of the screen) wouldn't drop deep that quickly, and the Dime Keo wouldn't drop out to the flat that far that quickly.
2. If it was a rotating cover 3, the LCB drops deep, but Demps needs to move to the middle; he didn't.
3. If it was cover 4 on the strong side, and cover 2 on the weak side (Harris' side), Demps would still have to move closer to the middle; he didn't.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
You know, it is entirely possible that one of them didn't get the play call right and was doing the wrong assignment regardless of what the other 9 players were doing. I know they are professionals and all, but we're talking about 2nd and 3rd stringers here, they do make mistakes.
It looked to me as if they were playing a 2 deep quarter zone on that side of the field and Harris let the guy go too early looking at the inside reciever .... Keo never had a chance on the play as her was also looking at the inside reciever .... Harris guessed wrong and Keo was unable to recover.
The responsibility was likely Keo's being in the deep zone but with Harris letting him go too soon along with the verticle threat of the inside route ... I cant let either of them off the hook.
Dutch is probably right that they got their signals mixed up .... recievers dont generally get open by that margin otherwise.
I believe you were talking about the other play, Corrosion.
Harris allowed a free outside release to the WR.
With the threat of the inside receiver also running a deep route, it's impossible for the safety.
You just can't allow a free outside release with 2 receivers running deep routes.
Harris needs to make better reads of the offensive formation and play it accordingly.
That looks like a Richard Smith's defense right there, LOL!
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
All the BS about other players and what the scheme could have been doesn't matter. I have watched you play these games before and I ain't playing especially when you ignored my question.
Are you seriously contending that was Brandon Harris intending to man cover his guy and was just physically incapable of following within 10 yards on that play or is your theory he went "oh look someone dropped a quarter way over back toward the QB" and locked onto the shiny object like a racoon?
Rey, Dutch and Corrosion have all made good observations that the blown coverage may have been a misunderstood assignment (which negates your scheme questions) or Harris pulling into too shallow of a zone. But zone is what Harris played.
Or here is another simple question - what CB playing man coverage never turns his shoulders square or looks at the WR before the ball is thrown?
I had previously read through your breakdowns with appreciation for the effort.
Let me try a different approach.
You think zone, and let's assume that is what it was supposed to be,
What kind of zone was that?
And what was Harris' role in that zone?
Now, I am contending that Harris was taken by the receiver's stem to the corner - which he shouldn't have whether it was zone or man.
If it was zone, he needs to find his landmark and watch for the QB.
He never did that.
If it was man, he failed.
Maybe I don't see it the same way you do, but maybe this is another instance that pictures and vids can tell a better story.
On the other hand, it was nice talking to you.
I guess we choose to see what we want to see.
I'm always open for a possibility that other eyes can be better than mine.
I take into consideration their view and draw up different scenarios.
My work right now is pretty mindless, I can afford to do these things.
I hope you know that I never intend to overlook the scenarios that others mention.
Yep
Man, the Texans sre in trouble if one of teir OT's go down.
My guess is they would try Brooks at OT before they let a swinging door like Gardner play.
I dont even want to think about the consequences if Brown went down. If they were going to let 2/5's of last yrs OL go you would've thought OL would've been a higher priority in the draft. IMHO
They "had" Butler and Newton ... Looked as if the position was nailed down until one gets hurt.
As someone (cant recall who so I cant credit the person) mentioned before about the tackle spot , they were proactive in replacing Winston by drafting Newton the year before , and when you factor in how well Butler played in replacing Brown last year , you had to believe it was sewn up.
I expect they'll look hard for an upgrade there ...
If the Texans felt that Butler played well in those 4 games that Brown was suspended in 2010, that was their first mistake. He was eaten alive by premier pass rushers. I felt he would do better on the right side, but I was mistaken. One of the most overrated Texans ever.
Still think Newton has the talent to eventually succeed. He will have to grow up fast to keep Matt safe. Which is why a bigger TE to plant on the right side would be nice.