Possibie is not the same as realistic.
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What is the single biggest thing that can change for this team to be MORE successful in 2020?
- Thread starter theCATALYST
- Start date
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
The Eagles should have no interest in moving Wentz but maybe they'd like the idea of a healthy QB versus an injury prone QB. I don't think the Texans would make a move for Wentz b/c of his injury history.
Rams need to make a splash this off-season to give fans a glimmer of hope. I think fans of the Rams would be extremely happy with a move to obtain Watson, even if it cost Goff and pick or two.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Running he did and that isn't what I want my QB doing. (His rushing avg dropped .6) Passing he had the same at 26. His adjusted passing rate has dropped significantly from his first two seasons. His total yards passing went down over 300 yards for season. His QBR did go up significantly IMO due to fewer sacks allowed by OLine & that is a positive for 2020.
I wouldn't trade for Wentz, but he's the type of QB BOB would work well with.
badboy
Hall of Fame
No one in right mind would trade Watson for Goff whose cap goes stupid 2020. Also you have to get a high round first and Rams don't have it. Bring a more realistic QB to trade for.
What traits & skills does Wentz have that would make him a good fit for O'Brien offense?
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Can he hand the ball off on 1st down?
Big QB stands in the pocket, has a big arm
Looks to throw 1st and run as a last resort.
Dont get me wrong I would take DW4 over Wentz due to injury history.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Never had any intention of wanting to trade Watson (made in rebuttal to steelbtexan) unless it's for a boatload of picks.....and that thought is contingent on OB not being with the organization to make anymore mistakes while I would also trade off all other major assets to re-set the cap before 2021 and giving a giving a new regime a full compliment of picks over the next 2 drafts to start the re-build. OB's moves this past off-season were good but at a massive cost to the next 2 drafts.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
You could fix 99.9% of DW's deficiencies with a better OL, play-calling and game management.
Teams were staying back in coverage more and rushing less; they normally had a guy spying on him or at least keeping attention.
He didn't play in the last game of the season.
The opponents wanted to make sure not to give up big plays (and as a by-product, Hyde has more room to run; it's easier to run against cover 2, at least, supposedly.)
Exactly why it's not realistic.
Many others from the Pats tree (Dimitroff/Robinson etc...) have been able to do it.
Have you bothered looking up their resume/biography?
1. made a SB and should've won
2. The other made the AFCCG.
Learned from the master just like BOB.
Sounds like Mallet, Brock and Savage are the type of QBs you and O’Brien prefer. I wonder why O’Brien couldn’t develop or coach them up.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Bad analogy,
Mallett had accuracy issues and Savage had processing issues when real NFL game speed came into play. Wentz doesn't have those issues. He has injury issues.
Nice try though.
O'Brien had limited success with Christian Hackenberg and Matt McGloin. They are free agents, maybe he should pick up one or both of them. They are his kind of QBs. What about trading Watson and signing Brady or Rivers to setup in the pocket behind Martin's blocking? We can reserve our spots for the Super Bowl parade on Kirby.
If Brady was here, the last sentence may become a true statement.
Sad thing is DW4 will always be 2nd fiddle to Mahomes, the way Peyton was to Brady and that's in a best case scenario. Right now DW4's a middle of the pack QB. 10 good games/7 bad games type QB.
I didn't know Brady played CB and also rushed the passer. Seems like your JIC is Tom Brady. I still think O'Brien should sign his type of QB like Matt McGloin or Christian Hackenberg. After another scoreless first quarter, we can get gems like this from McGloin.
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They can add pieces to the defense by trading DW4 for picks and quickly rebuild the defense.
Brady isn't JIC. He is the GOAT though.
What does all that have to do with OB and the draft?
It means they all have the same vision/training learning from the best to ever do it (Belichick) and the system is successful outside of Belichick.
Good thing Watson doesn't have those problems
No, you forgot the important part. Those guys have lots of experience in scouting.
OB was with BB, and his offense is still nothing to write home about in year 6.
He wasn't over persoñnel now h is and he knows the Patriot way.
You just disagree with his vision.
Irrelevant to the point in this discussion.
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Discussion
Is that what you're interested in having?
I would take a 25 yr old Tunsil over any of the guys you listed.
He's not part of the problem with the OL, but he's part of the solution.
No, we were talking about how unrealistic it is for a guy with no track record in scouting to nail all the picks in the draft. (Next year)
The two things have nothing to do with each other.
I'm not on the full bore RPO bandwagon …. but I don't like OB's offense either , I think Watson would be better in a WCO system as its tailor made for his talents.
Yeah , Watson's a good passer - when he gets rid of the damn ball on time and that's the whole problem and argument between Watson / OB. Sometimes no one is open , others Watson doesn't let it fly , rather waits for a deeper route.
He needs a lot more disciplined offensive structure …. first read occurs before you hit the top of your drop , if its open , let it fly. Next read needs to be within the next second , if its open , let it fly , if not its checkdown time - Or get out of the pocket BEFORE you are forced out.
Every play doesn't have to be a Sports Center top 5 to be successful - sometimes you take what you can get and move on to the next down - keep the chains moving.
If he insists on holding the ball , he has to get outside the pocket and help his blockers out while putting pressure on the DB's at the same time.
His pocket presence is really pretty extraordinary …. what isn't is waiting far too long to get out of the pocket because he think's he can escape pretty much anything. That's why I like the idea of a WCO for him and a load of plays designed to get him outside the pocket instead of waiting on him to make the decision to get outside. Add in a heavy dose of play action , force those LBers to honor the run first and you have a bigger window in those zones. Those DB's cant sit back in a zone and account for Watson outside at the same time - They have to give up something.
Agreed
But to run the WCO you have to throw with accuracy/anticipation. See: Schaub/Montana/Elway etc....
Perfect for Watson then
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
You want to watch Watson become a beast in the short passing game......move Hopkins to the slot. I truly think the problem plaguing the Texans is Watson looking for Hopkins to break coverage.....problem, Hopkins can't do that all the time b/c he's usually fighting multiple coverage sets.
Get a new WR1 or more a healthy Fuller into that slot and find another take the top off the defense WR2. Hopkins would have mismatches all day every day and Watson would have his choice in the short game when you include the TE's and Johnson. How these guys would be used.....that's totally up to OB. The beauty of having Hopkins in the slot would be watching defenses trying to gameplan for him while a healthy Fuller and another Fuller type are lining up on the outside.
Get a new WR1 or more a healthy Fuller into that slot and find another take the top off the defense WR2. Hopkins would have mismatches all day every day and Watson would have his choice in the short game when you include the TE's and Johnson. How these guys would be used.....that's totally up to OB. The beauty of having Hopkins in the slot would be watching defenses trying to gameplan for him while a healthy Fuller and another Fuller type are lining up on the outside.
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
#truewords
Agreed 100%. Watson would shine in a west coast offense. It will never happen, but an OC with a WCO mindset would be an awesome pick up.
I have no idea what the JIC crowd is.
I think he can be improved. I've seen no evidence of the attempts thereof, and OB himself has said he just lets him play.
IMO, OB's routes just take too long to develop.
There's usually a checkdown though.
Either the RB in the flat or the TE in between the hashes. Looking at these guys instead of always looking for the big play is one of the things DW4 needs to improve on.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I am interested in free-agent Robby Anderson will be 27 years old May 9th this year. He's six-foot-three 190 and 4.36 2016 pro day. $3 m with Jets. 52 for 779 yards.
Maybe , maybe not.
A lot of people look at completion percentage and think that equates to accuracy - It doesn't.
Watson gets the ball in the general vicinity but not necessarily on target. On Target is the accuracy @steelbtexan is talking about. In the vicinity is generally catchable , on target is only your guy can catch it and you give him an opportunity to do something with it afterwards.
I do believe he is accurate enough to be successful in that system.
My reasoning for putting him in a WCO is probably a little different than what you think - It limits what he has to read in many cases and that , along with intentionally getting him out of the pocket is why I think it fits him best.
It simplifies the game for him not being asked to stand in the pocket and go thru a list of progressions and intentionally getting him outside the pocket solves the nasty habit he has of staying in the pocket too long.
The other issue is he's always looking for a big play rather than just stringing together completions - He'll pass up an open receiver thinking he can get a bigger gain. If you could get him to stop thinking every play has to be a sports center highlight and take those modest gains , string together a drive instead of big play or bust …. he's going to be a lot better QB for it and the offense will be a lot more productive.
What I'm trying to do with a WCO scheme is stop Watson from being his own worst enemy. He needs coaching and structure that he's not getting right now.
Now doing this has the added benefit of putting him in situations he's comfortable with and putting a lot more pressure on those DB's who have to account for the potential of Watson running …. Its a lot harder to play those deep zones then - and those two deep zones have given Watson fits all year.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I was certainly thinking about RA as well. He would be sound WR2 if Fuller could stay healthy for a season. That statement was made in regards to hoping Hopkins would get more SWR time to create favorable mismatches on offense.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
This.
People forget when talking about how good a passer Watson is that his primary target is Hopkins and Hopkins is the kind of WR that makes bad QBs look good and good QBs look great. Heaven forbid Hopkins goes down with any kind of injury but the reality is that until Watson has to throw to guys who aren't Hopkins, without Hopkins there to take double coverage, we don't know how accurate he actually is. His combine report listed accuracy as his main weakness and honestly I'm not sure that has changed as more he's just throwing to an all-Pro WR now.
WEAKNESSES
Frame is a little more slender than teams typically like. Accuracy runs hot and cold. Tends to over-stride on drive throws, causing release point to drop and balls to sail. Ball placement on crossing routes and slants needs to improve. Will leave throws behind intended targets. Deep-ball accuracy has been scatter-shot over his last two seasons at Clemson, with throws sailing well beyond his target. Design of offense limited his need to make full-field reads.
I had two knocks on Watson pre-draft.
The first was accuracy / ball placement , he got away with that in college throwing into much bigger windows and having better athletes to throw to than were covering those players - kinda like having DHop to throw to against most DB's. Just get it in the neighborhood and he's gonna go get it more often than not.
The second was that Dabo didn't ask a whole lot of him in terms of reading a defense , generally he had two reads in the same half of the field and a checkdown within the framework of the offense then you are off script. That has never been enough in the NFL. That's a viable scheme in college where the big time programs have better athletes but its not conducive to these guys progressing in the NFL. We've seen a lot of guys that look great in college and just cant put it together in the NFL.
Watson just happens to have the physical ability to hide it better than most.
I do think there have been times where he seems to have put it all together …. gives you a little hope that he can figure it out.
Great post, it describes DW4's game to a T.
Those times you think he's figured it out are usually against the Falcons type defenses.
The underlying problem is a HC/OC that takes this 'round peg' talent and tries to force it into his own 'square hole' offensive scheme.
The brilliant OC's understand that they might sometimes be required to create a revised scheme that does a better job of allowing the talent to be utilized to maximum potential.
And once again, the inherent dysfunction of the Texans FO has a GM picking a player (based upon the mandate of the owner) that is not suited to the scheme of his HC/OC.
I do believe that both O'Brien and Watson are doing the best they can do under the circumstances.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Agree 100%, you have a coach that can’t get out of his comfort zone to fit the offense to the type of QB he has and a QB that can’t change his game enough to fit the scheme. The end result is what we see on the field, a team good enough to have a winning record and get a game or two into the playoffs but will never see it all the way through.
It’s why I wish the Texans would just bite the bullet and go get a QB that fits OB or go get a HC, at least an OC, that fits Watson. Given how much more they cost and how much more difficult they are to get I’d rather at this point we keep the QB.
Fact is though OB is cemented into the power structure of the F/O and Watson is to big of money and name wise to fail so the one hope we have is that the stars align and we luck out a season because at this rate it sure won’t be planning or skill that wins anything.
This is a very good point regarding the slot. For years, we heard the missing component of O'Brien's offense was a slot WR. Along comes Coutee. He looked promising as a rookie and this year, he ends up in the doghouse. When Coutee was playing well, Watson had no problems finding him in the slot and middle of the field.