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What is Sage's value?--Sage Frustrated

HoustonFrog said:
In my book this is the first season where you can honestly say Boom or Bust. There is no slap on the butt, "good job for 8-8" again.
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I agree with your assertion, but not your analysis. This season is about contending, and that trumps building for the future. Acquiring an extra 3rd round pick who may or may not help this season is about the future. In a season where 1 game can be the difference between a playoff berth or staying home, a veteran backup QB like Sage can make more of an impact.
 
Lucky said:
I agree with your assertion, but not your analysis. This season is about contending, and that trumps building for the future. Acquiring an extra 3rd round pick who may or may not help this season is about the future. In a season where 1 game can be the difference between a playoff berth or staying home, a veteran backup QB like Sage can make more of an impact.
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We were 2+ games out of a playoff spot (Cleveland went 10-6 and failed to get in...I think), and we only won one game in out division...I think the playoffs are still a year or two out. We still have several holes to plug.

I'd be happy if we went 8-8 again, but with a better record against the AFC South. Could this team be one of those 8-8 teams one year, AFC contenders the next...sure; but I think another year of building for the future would be more prudent in establishing a team capable of winning franchise over the long run.
 
Lucky said:
I agree with your assertion, but not your analysis. This season is about contending, and that trumps building for the future. Acquiring an extra 3rd round pick who may or may not help this season is about the future. In a season where 1 game can be the difference between a playoff berth or staying home, a veteran backup QB like Sage can make more of an impact.
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Understood but you could easily sign a Veteren who is capable, like Volek or Holcomb and get picks.
 
Specnatz said:
Understood but you could easily sign a Veteren who is capable, like Volek or Holcomb and get picks.
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There's a reason Volek & Holcomb are sitting by their phones, while Rick Smith is getting inquiries about Rosenfels. In any other year, I would agree with making the deal. Just not this season.
 
Lucky said:
I agree with your assertion, but not your analysis. This season is about contending, and that trumps building for the future. Acquiring an extra 3rd round pick who may or may not help this season is about the future. In a season where 1 game can be the difference between a playoff berth or staying home, a veteran backup QB like Sage can make more of an impact.
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Your point is well taken but that assumes that other vets out there wouldn't be able to do the same job. Sage put up great numbers...he also combined them with bad numbers. He won some but he also showed many problem spots. There is no guarantee that he does the same this season. I think if you can get a 3rd rounder and find a competent backup who can do what Carr did 2 seasons ago...hand off and stay out of the way, it can keep us in games just the same. It isn't like we haven't won those games. It just shouldn't be the norm. If you get a guy who can do more, it is a plus. I think you can have the best of both worlds.
 
HoustonFrog said:
Your point is well taken but that assumes that other vets out there wouldn't be able to do the same job. Sage put up great numbers...he also combined them with bad numbers. He won some but he also showed many problem spots. There is no guarantee that he does the same this season. I think if you can get a 3rd rounder and find a competent backup who can do what Carr did 2 seasons ago...hand off and stay out of the way, it can keep us in games just the same. It isn't like we haven't won those games. It just shouldn't be the norm. If you get a guy who can do more, it is a plus. I think you can have the best of both worlds.
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There are a few other factors not being mentioned that make Sage valuable:

1. He knows the system very well and has won in it.
2. He has the total trust/faith of the team
3. He's signed at a bargain rate for two more seasons
4. He has a good relationship with Schaub.
5. His contract is up the same year that the staff must decide whether to extend Schaub.

Anyone we pick off the street will have question marks in each of those areas, expect possibly #3.
 
I say sit on Sage for now and see what happens between now and draft. For once we are in driver's seat as we don't have to trade.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
Sage's value (in a trade) might be increasing.

With collins is saying in DC, Chris Redmond is returning to Atlanta, and Cleo Lemon just signed with the Jags; the options for Minnesota are declining.

Sources:
http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl
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If it moves to a #2 we better jump

dalemurphy said:
There are a few other factors not being mentioned that make Sage valuable:

1. He knows the system very well and has won in it.
2. He has the total trust/faith of the team
3. He's signed at a bargain rate for two more seasons
4. He has a good relationship with Schaub.
5. His contract is up the same year that the staff must decide whether to extend Schaub.

Anyone we pick off the street will have question marks in each of those areas, expect possibly #3.
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I'm sure their relationship is fine but I'm also sure that Sage doesn't like sitting on the bench after last season.
 
Teams know that we are willing to trade Sage now. And with the FA market being extremely weak for QBs, I think we are sitting pretty for someone to give up more than just a 3rd. I believe Sage's trade value will increase as we get closer to the draft. JMO
 
Double Barrel said:
Teams know that we are willing to trade Sage now. And with the FA market being extremely weak for QBs, I think we are sitting pretty for someone to give up more than just a 3rd. I believe Sage's trade value will increase as we get closer to the draft. JMO
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If we got a 2nd and used first three picks on an LT, RB and CB (regardless of the order) Colt Brennan may be there in 4th, would he be a suitable replacement for Sage?
 
Double Barrel said:
Teams know that we are willing to trade Sage now. And with the FA market being extremely weak for QBs, I think we are sitting pretty for someone to give up more than just a 3rd. I believe Sage's trade value will increase as we get closer to the draft. JMO
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Could be a draft day deal even. Looks like we will have a few storylines to follow on a potential move up into the second round. As it stands we only have one "first day" pick this season since rd3 is no longer a "first day" pick. Kinda takes the fun out of the first day of the draft when you only get one pick.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Dude, if you DVR games, it's an offseason savior. I love watching games over and over. Plus you're able to evaluate players. :cool:
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I just bought a 1TB HDD especially for recording this upcoming season. Oh it's going to be SHAweet!
 
ouldn't we just call up Vinny T.? He is better than than our previous face of the franchise QB.
 
Vinny said:
Could be a draft day deal even. Looks like we will have a few storylines to follow on a potential move up into the second round. As it stands we only have one "first day" pick this season since rd3 is no longer a "first day" pick. Kinda takes the fun out of the first day of the draft when you only get one pick.
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its tough, really tough the way this organization past & present have traded away or mis-judged 2nd rd. value, with the notable exception of two picks, Pitts & DeMeco. I'm willing to bite the bullet one last time to resolve our QB situation post Carr. it would be a mistake to trade away the protection we currently enjoy for Schaub in the event of historical injury reports. at the same time fair value for Sage is no higher than a low 2nd, which would certainly return a rookie starter :goodbad:
 
beerlover said:
its tough, really tough the way this organization past & present have traded away or mis-judged 2nd rd. value, with the notable exception of two picks, Pitts & DeMeco.
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Look at what you said, and know that Rick Smith has nothing to do with Casserly. He has done better with his two past 2nd round picks. I am sure he will do the right thing with a 2nd this year. However, I believe Sage should stay.
 
El Tejano said:
Look at what you said, and know that Rick Smith has nothing to do with Casserly. He has done better with his two past 2nd round picks. I am sure he will do the right thing with a 2nd this year. However, I believe Sage should stay.
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Smith traded away the 2nd rd. pick last year & this year. look at what you said thats a big goose egg 0 only one 2nd rd. pick (DeMeco, which he was given credit for) in three years.
 
badboy said:
If we got a 2nd and used first three picks on an LT, RB and CB (regardless of the order) Colt Brennan may be there in 4th, would he be a suitable replacement for Sage?
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Only if Schaub doesn't get hurt!

There's no way for any rookie to "be a suitable replacement" for Sage. They just don't have the experience that Sage has. If we drafted Colt (or any other rookie QB) I think it would be a couple of years, if ever, before they are ready to step in and play on a regular basis the way Sage has. JMHO!
 
Insideop said:
Only if Schaub doesn't get hurt!

There's no way for any rookie to "be a suitable replacement" for Sage. They just don't have the experience that Sage has. If we drafted Colt (or any other rookie QB) I think it would be a couple of years, if ever, before they are ready to step in and play on a regular basis the way Sage has. JMHO!
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Big Ben says that experience isnt the only thing that matters.
 
beerlover said:
Smith traded away the 2nd rd. pick last year & this year. look at what you said thats a big goose egg 0 only one 2nd rd. pick (DeMeco, which he was given credit for) in three years.
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Smith can't be given credit for DeMeco. He wasn't the GM yet. I know nobody wants to hear this, but CC was still the GM. :shades:
 
Insideop said:
Is Big Ben available in this draft, and do we have as good a team as the Steelers had when they drafted him?
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We're not nearly as talented as the Steelers were when they drafted Roethlisberger, but we are still a pretty decent team.

NFL experience is not the only thing that matters when you're talking about a backup QB.

Its improbable, but not impossible, that a guy like Chad Henne would be able to suitably replace Schaub in an injury situation, just like Sage has.

Just trying to show you that experience isnt everything, not saying that NFL rookie QBs can always just step in on day one and play.
 
bah007 said:
We're not nearly as talented as the Steelers were when they drafted Roethlisberger, but we are still a pretty decent team.

NFL experience is not the only thing that matters when you're talking about a backup QB.

Its improbable, but not impossible, that a guy like Chad Henne would be able to suitably replace Schaub in an injury situation, just like Sage has.

Just trying to show you that experience isnt everything, not saying that NFL rookie QBs can always just step in on day one and play.
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OK. I'll agree it's possible. Anything is possible. But, I sure wouldn't want to bet the farm on it. The odds of a rookie QB, even Henne, coming in and playing as well as Sage would have to be pretty bad.
 
Insideop said:
OK. I'll agree it's possible. Anything is possible. But, I sure wouldn't want to bet the farm on it. The odds of a rookie QB, even Henne, coming in and playing as well as Sage would have to be pretty bad.
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I don't really see the point. We 'think' we have our franchise QB in Matt Schaub. Say we do trade Sage for a 2nd rounder- that's probably what it'll take to select Chad Henne (2nd rd pick). If we have our franchise QB, why trade away a sure fire solid back up QB in Sage just to select a QB to be our back up with his pick who may or may not be as good?
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I don't really see the point. We 'think' we have our franchise QB in Matt Schaub. Say we do trade Sage for a 2nd rounder- that's probably what it'll take to select Chad Henne (2nd rd pick). If we have our franchise QB, why trade away a sure fire solid back up QB in Sage just to select a QB to be our back up with his pick who may or may not be as good?
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The point wasnt to draft a QB with the pick.

The point was that if Rosenfels were traded, its not unreasonable to think that we could find another back-up that could play just as well, whether FA or in the draft. Experience isnt the only thing that matters, was my main point.
 
threetoedpete said:
bet you a coke he makes beyond the sixth round. All he is right now is a lump of fast clay.
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I have to disagree. He threw 34 TD's and only 1 pick. That is ridiculous. The year before he threw 40 some TD's, and only 2 picks (I think). No matter what level you play at, that is ridiculous. Add that to his 4.44 40 and the rest of his agility drills, plus the fact that everything I have heard suggest the kid wants to learn and get better, I say he is gone by the end of the 3rd.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I don't really see the point. We 'think' we have our franchise QB in Matt Schaub. Say we do trade Sage for a 2nd rounder- that's probably what it'll take to select Chad Henne (2nd rd pick). If we have our franchise QB, why trade away a sure fire solid back up QB in Sage just to select a QB to be our back up with his pick who may or may not be as good?
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You use the 2nd you get for Sage to draft a solid LT like Collins are Sam Baker and use the 1st round on Mendenhall or Stewart. Both moves help the QB as does the ZBS under Gibbs. A Colt Brennan can be had in third. Sage is probably not going to lead the team deep in playoffs nor would Brennan. If Schaub is injured a veteran QB could be found if Brennan was no thought to be ready. You would be getting a starting LT for a back up QB. I'd go for that.
 
Another QB signs:
Adam Schefter of NFL Network reports that the Miami Dolphins have reached a contract agreement with free agent quarterback Josh McCown.

Per Schefter, the contract is a two-year deal worth $6.25 million. Although that's a contract more in line with what a backup usually makes, McCown may very well be the Dolphins' starter in September.
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http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

Maybe the Vikings comeback to the table, as their options are diminishing.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
Another QB signs:


http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

Maybe the Vikings comeback to the table, as their options are diminishing.
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People can say all they want that we should have taken a 3rd for Sage or a 2nd, if offered, for Sage............BUT others say who would ever consider a 2nd for a backup..............well, HELLO, we paid two 2nds...............OK, I know the retort, he had real upside and we know what we have with Sage...............Yeh, right..........................we know as much of what we have in Sage as we do in what we have in Schaub.............And as far as I'm concerned, EITHER could end up being strong producers in our system..........or not..........
 
Lions | Team trades Rogers for two draft picks
Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:02 -0800

WTVD in Raleigh-Durham, N.C., reports the Detroit Lions traded DL Shaun Rogers to the Cincinnati Bengals for a third-round and a fifth-round draft pick Friday, Feb. 29.

So I'm pretty sure that a 3rd and a 5th isn't as good as a 2nd. Is Sage worth more than Shaun Rogers?
 
hadaad said:
Lions | Team trades Rogers for two draft picks
Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:02 -0800

WTVD in Raleigh-Durham, N.C., reports the Detroit Lions traded DL Shaun Rogers to the Cincinnati Bengals for a third-round and a fifth-round draft pick Friday, Feb. 29.

So I'm pretty sure that a 3rd and a 5th isn't as good as a 2nd. Is Sage worth more than Shaun Rogers?
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Depends on how bad the Vikings want him doesn't it?
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
People can say all they want that we should have taken a 3rd for Sage or a 2nd, if offered, for Sage............BUT others say who would ever consider a 2nd for a backup..............well, HELLO, we paid two 2nds...............OK, I know the retort, he had real upside and we know what we have with Sage...............Yeh, right..........................we know as much of what we have in Sage as we do in what we have in Schaub.............And as far as I'm concerned, EITHER could end up being strong producers in our system..........or not..........
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So.. are you for or against a trade or not?
 
hadaad said:
Lions | Team trades Rogers for two draft picks
Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:20:02 -0800

WTVD in Raleigh-Durham, N.C., reports the Detroit Lions traded DL Shaun Rogers to the Cincinnati Bengals for a third-round and a fifth-round draft pick Friday, Feb. 29.

So I'm pretty sure that a 3rd and a 5th isn't as good as a 2nd. Is Sage worth more than Shaun Rogers?
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The Vikings would probably be willing to give up more for Sage than they would for Rogers. Likewise, the Bengals would be a lot more willing to give up more for Rogers than they would for Sage.

It all depends on the teams' need(s). For example- if there was an equal rated WR and RB- we'd be willing to give up more to trade for a RB as opposed to a WR (even if talent level they are the same).
 
badboy said:
You use the 2nd you get for Sage to draft a solid LT like Collins are Sam Baker and use the 1st round on Mendenhall or Stewart. Both moves help the QB as does the ZBS under Gibbs. A Colt Brennan can be had in third. Sage is probably not going to lead the team deep in playoffs nor would Brennan. If Schaub is injured a veteran QB could be found if Brennan was no thought to be ready. You would be getting a starting LT for a back up QB. I'd go for that.
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Sorry badboy, I just don't think I can agree with this logic. What if Schaub goes down in the 14th game and we are in the playoff hunt? Do you want Sage in there or Colt? I just don't get this logic about Sage not being able to lead us to, or deep, into the playoffs. And good luck trying to find a good backup QB late in the season if you find out Colt can't do it.

Look, I'm not totally against a trade and getting something for Sage while his value is high, but there is something to what Porky (think it was Porky) said about "a bird in the hand." JMHO!
 
Porky said:
I'm glad it fell through at that price. The old saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush comes to mind. It's not like our starter has proven to have the durability of a Payton Manning. We don't know yet if we have another Chris Chandelier on our hands, or if last year was a fluke.

Nope, in this league you need two capable QB's. Sage proved his value to the team last year. We also have Schaub who set the market value on starter potential QB's without a ton of starts under his belt. It stands to reason to me that if Schaub is worth 2 #2's, and you evualate his performance vs. Rosenfels last year, then at worst Rosenfels is worth 2 #3's, if not a 2nd and a 3rd. I didn't set the market on QB's, the Texans, Bills, and many other teams have set that market value over the years. One #3 would not be market value, and in the event that Schaub were to go down, we would be handing the reins of the team in the most important position to whom exactly?

I don't think you help your team by dealing from the most important position on the team when you have depth in that area. Weakening that position for a totally unknown quantity in a draft pick makes no sense to me. Just ask Falcons fans how that worked for them. Have we learned nothing from history?
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Yes it was Porky. And BTW, this is a very good post Porky. I don't always agree with what you say, but this post was spot on! JMHO!
 
Gus Ferrotte is available for around the same price Sage would cost us and Brian Griese should be available(there goes the Sage knows the offense!)

We're playing Chicken with Minnesota at this point and if we get a second come draft day that looks great. In the mean time if this doesn't go through we waste a good opportunity IMO. I don't think Kubiaks offense is that hard to pick up for a QB. I think some people here are grossly over valuing Sage,his QB capabilities and what Minn. is willing to reach on for him.

I'm not advocating let's get a rook to play behind Schaub there are some vets out there. An extra third looks real nice without a second rounder and the past two years we've been solid on tabbing later round talent. It'sa deep draft too.
 
I will trust Smith and Kubiak to do what's best for the team. I would be interested in them trading Sage for the pick out of self-interest to make draft day a little more interesting.
 
badboy said:
You use the 2nd you get for Sage to draft a solid LT like Collins are Sam Baker and use the 1st round on Mendenhall or Stewart. Both moves help the QB as does the ZBS under Gibbs. A Colt Brennan can be had in third. Sage is probably not going to lead the team deep in playoffs nor would Brennan. If Schaub is injured a veteran QB could be found if Brennan was no thought to be ready. You would be getting a starting LT for a back up QB. I'd go for that.
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What he said.
 
Porky said:
I'm glad it fell through at that price. The old saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush comes to mind. It's not like our starter has proven to have the durability of a David Carr. We don't know yet if we have another Chris Chandelier on our hands, or if last year was a fluke.
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Fixed that for ya.:specnatz:
 
Like I said earlier. If Sage is at the helm, we're not making the playoffs. This is, as it stands, a 9 or 10 win team at best. We need to have another great draft with rookies contributing to really consider ourselves playoff ready. Maybe that year is this year, I don't know. But I like our chances alot better if we are able to patch up our LT or OLB or CB problem in the third round than I do if we are almost hoping Schaub goes down just to prove that Sage WAS worth turning down that offer. Oh and if you want to make the playoffs.. you sure as heck better have a QB who has the durability of a Manning, Brady etc. Teams over the last 10 years that have their QB miss more than 2 games in a season have a terrible track record of making the playoffs. Sure he can get hurt in week 13 or something and miss a game or two but you better not have him missing all kinds of time.

Mike
 
Texanmike said:
Like I said earlier. If Sage is at the helm, we're not making the playoffs. This is, as it stands, a 9 or 10 win team at best. We need to have another great draft with rookies contributing to really consider ourselves playoff ready. Maybe that year is this year, I don't know. But I like our chances alot better if we are able to patch up our LT or OLB or CB problem in the third round than I do if we are almost hoping Schaub goes down just to prove that Sage WAS worth turning down that offer. Oh and if you want to make the playoffs.. you sure as heck better have a QB who has the durability of a Manning, Brady etc. Teams over the last 10 years that have their QB miss more than 2 games in a season have a terrible track record of making the playoffs. Sure he can get hurt in week 13 or something and miss a game or two but you better not have him missing all kinds of time.

Mike
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Of course, there are examples that support 2 qbs:

NYGiants in 91- Simms, Hostetler
Pittsburgh- Kordell and ODonnell, Batch and Rothlisburger
KC- Trent Green and what's his name
Phillie- McNabb and Feeley, Detmer
St Louis- Warner and Green


that's off the top of my head. I also think there may still be some long term doubt as to how Schaub will pan out. And, both contracts are up in '09... So, I think they'll be careful about losing Sage under they are sure of Schaub's durability. Sage did after all go 4-1 in 5 starts, not to mention what he almost did in the Tennessee game. He's a great bargain for us.
 
my 2 cents... If we've made up our minds, that Schaub is our starter, then it makes sense to let Sage go. It's fair to him, and it would remove any inkling of a QB controversy.

We could use the second, and if another team would give us a high second, then that's definitely worth a QB with Sage's resume.

We know Sage can put together a few wins, if need be. Our team feels comfortable, and confident when he is on the field.

He's worth a second to us, and we shouldn't give him away for anything less.
 
dalemurphy said:
Of course, there are examples that support 2 qbs:

NYGiants in 91- Simms, Hostetler
Pittsburgh- Kordell and ODonnell, Batch and Rothlisburger
KC- Trent Green and what's his name
Phillie- McNabb and Feeley, Detmer
St Louis- Warner and Green


that's off the top of my head. I also think there may still be some long term doubt as to how Schaub will pan out. And, both contracts are up in '09... So, I think they'll be careful about losing Sage under they are sure of Schaub's durability. Sage did after all go 4-1 in 5 starts, not to mention what he almost did in the Tennessee game. He's a great bargain for us.
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Going back to 91 you can come up with 6 examples. I'll do the numbers again (I did them but they were lost when the board switched over). It was pretty convincing. Also you have to limit to about the last 10 years because free agency has changed the game so much.

Mike
 
badboy said:
I say sit on Sage for now and see what happens between now and draft. For once we are in driver's seat as we don't have to trade.
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The Jerome Mathis play ? Roenfelds is gone in two yers .Nothing will stop it.

Look the talks have broken off as they should at this point. We owe the Vikes nothing. The three is very low from our prespective. They need the competent QB2 to miss going top ten in '09. They sweeten the pot with mulipul picks... strike while the iron is hot. Execute the move.
 
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