I never said he didn't change a bunch. The statement that the team developed him "for a few years" and they would have traded or cut him if they weren't patient is an absolutely asinine statement. He won the Super Bowl in his 2nd year. They were not trading or cutting him and they weren't patient.
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What did you think of Pep Hamilton's performance last year as OC?
- Thread starter Buckeye Homer
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Brady literally put up Davis Mills numbers in that 2nd year “he” won the SB. So to act like he stepped in and was a franchise level qb like Patrick Mahomes and led them to the SB is the asinine statement. His rookie year he sat the bench & his 2nd year he started on the bench & The only reason he got up off the bench was b/c of a freak accident….which ironically was also what happened with Davis Mills. So unless you’re implying that his 18 TDs 13 ints and less than 3000 yds passing was franchise qb level play, he was still in development…Beli and co. didn’t think he was ready and they largely kept the keys to the car around their neck the entire season by playing tough defense, running the ball with UH’s Antoine Smith, and keeping his pass attempts down & limited to high percentage passes. His only job was to take care of the ball.
Just b/c he was the guy at the helm during a SB run doesn’t mean he was ready to be the guy….
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He was deemed ready enough that a healthy Bledsoe was traded to a division rival before the start of 2002
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
No not really. What it really was is he was just deemed cheaper than Bledsoe at the time & Beli saw an opportunity to dump Bledsoe's salary while also contining to let Brady develop .................as long as he continued to progress & manage the games the way Beli had structured the team.
& that Probably doesn't happen with any other coach except Belichick....... a guy who has became infamous for letting go of guys 1-2 years before they actually fell over the hill. Bledsoe went to Buffalo and was a pro bowler the next season. Also see Willie McGinest, Richard Seymour & a whole host of other guys including Brady that would go elsewhere and be productive after being traded/released by the Pats over the years.
Look, Brady did enough in his career for folks to not continue to revise history. Yeah he won the SB in his 2nd year, but if you go back and really look at that season & playoff run......instead of 1-2 plays and drives, Brady wasn't good. We all know he should've lost the tuck rule game ...which would've been at his hands.....but the next game against the Steelers in the playoffs, i believe he got knocked out of it & Bledsoe had to come in and save it...But Brady wasn't doing anything noteworthy. Then in the SB, he threw for a whopping 145 yds...40 of that came on that final drive, 1 pass TD..sub 60% completion percentage...offense scored 20 total pts. HE. WAS. NOT. GOOD..........................back then. He was still developing..just on the field.
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And yet he was Super Bowl MVP by being not good?
In 2001, the Patriots gave Bledsoe a 10-year, $103 million contract. IMHO, winning that Super Bowl with Brady as a game manager gave them the "courage" to trade Bledsoe and get out of that contract. If Brady had failed during that Super Bowl run or was the reason for them not winning the Super Bowl, I don't know if they would have traded Bledsoe.
But he did and Belichek was confidant enough in his ability to let him attempt that final drive with seconds on the clock when many thought he should play for OT.
Belichek was all in on Brady regardless of what the fans thought
LOL.
This must be the most ridiculous statement ever, or at least one of them.
Brady's 12 Ints was 8th least among QBs with more than 300 pass attempts that year.
Brady's 18 TDs were 13th most.
And that was when the rules didn't favor the offense anywhere as much as they do today.
It was when the pass rushers can still treat the QB like a piece of meat.
So what?
The Pats still lead 7-3 when Brady got injured.
He just completed a 25yd pass to the Steelers 40 with 1:40 in the half.
The Pats were moving the ball.
And you don't think he was affected by the high ankle sprain in the following game?
No, he wasn't great, but he was much better than what you tried to shoehorn him in.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Brady was still a game manager at that point of his career. He didn’t have the full grasp of that particular offense at that time.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Brady:
Passer Rating.....86.5
Yds......................2843
TDs.....................18
INTs....................12
Completion %.....63.9
...................................
Mills:
Passer Rating....78.8
Yds......................3118
TDs......................17
INTs.....................15
Completion %......61
Close; close enough to argue the point. Brady just slightly better but had a superior supporting cast as well as better coaching.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
That had more to do with Beli catching the Rams by surprise by not playing for OT and realizing that the tide was turning on his team than him having faith in Brady. He realized It was the last chance to possibly win the game & didn’t want to possibly leave the game in the hands of a coin toss. last drive of the season..may as well go for it.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
When has that ever been an excuse for other players? When has a 1/2 of football ever been good enough in your eyes regarding any qb the Texans have trotted out over the last few years lol. You’re using hindsight to justify your stance b/c of what Brady went on to become. In that game at that time, he wasn’t playing well & he wasn’t that good.
Wasn't the point.
Not the point.
Brady and Mills were never anywhere near the same zip code, even in college.
In college, they already called him the come back kid.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Go look at the elite qbs of that time. Brady’s numbers were trash. Had like 1 300 yard game the entire season.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
no its not YOUR POINT. What i’ve stated is facts tho…something you like to obfuscate often……And that comeback kid moniker landed him a 6th round draft slot…
You forgot the most important stats.
Brady had 3 fourth-quarter comebacks the first year he started.
I give you better coaching and supporting cast, but Mills looked like a deer in the headlights his rookie year.
He only looked decent (even good) when the other teams called off the dog or their D was decimated or was among the NFL worst.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He had faith in Brady not making a mistake that would cost him the game
I did.
You didn't
Brady' TD pct. was 12th.
Brady's Int pct. was 13th fewest.
2001 NFL Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Check out the 2001 NFL Passing Stats and more on Pro-football-reference.com
www.pro-football-reference.com
Don't move the goal post.
You ridiculously claimed that Brady put up Millesque numbers, which is nowhere near the truth.
I'm not going engage in any other sideways move you're trying to make. LOL.
At any rate, who else besides 30-yr old Troy Brown did Brady have?
Who were the other receivers and TE?
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2001.htm
Number19
Hall of Fame
I'm not a football historian, so I'm unable to go that deep into "stats" or discussion. Forth quarter comebacks are not a "usual" piece of available information, but while qbs certainly have to orchestrate the win, I'd say it's just as much a team effort. The original comment was that Brady put up Mills' numbers for the season. That is all I was addressing.
And let's not forget the Pats were 5-11 the year prior.
Belichek had had one winning season in his first six years of coaching.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I'm not sure you can really say that either. The only reason anyone believes that they should've played for OT in that situation is b/c you had John Madden screaming it over the broadcast every 10-12 seconds until it became apparent the Pats had a legit shot at a FG. Reality is the Pats had a minute and a half to work with to pick up 45-50 yards....Dude, that's a lifetime in a 2 min offense.
2, Beli had Vinatieri. & after what that dude had just done in Foxboro in a driving snowstorm, it's more likely he had his faith IN HIM & his ability to nail a long FG than in Brady.
3. Beli understood how defenses tend to play in those situations..Prevent which pretty much means they're giving up everything underneath and guarding the sidelines and the deep ball.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I did.
You didn't
Brady' TD pct. was 12th.
Brady's Int pct. was 13th fewest.
2001 NFL Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Check out the 2001 NFL Passing Stats and more on Pro-football-reference.com
You're full of it bro. I know you didn't...I didn't have to b/c i remember. & I know 18 TD and 13 ints is only considered good qb play in the leather helmet era...& in the eyes of 76T lol.
Hell Brett Favre was still playing pretty good in 2000 & he was chunking 30+ TD's and 4000 yards in the late 90's
Manning in 98' entered the league throwing damn near 30 TD's (28 ints)....but was more or less also around that
Brees...
I'm not going to debate you... sorry to burst your bubble. I only got involved in this conversation because you stated that Brady was not set as the starter early. That is not true.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Dude the numbers are right there! Those are Mills' numbers. For all of the hoopla about what he did in the SB, it was 145 yards and 1 TD. The much ballyhooed final drive.........ALL but 1 throw........... CHECK DOWNS.
He wasn't forced into the lineup in 2002.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He had this guy...
who for all the knocking of him you try, was a great coach that was dealt a shitty hand in Cleveland...Known for stifling great offenses....The gameplan used against the bills in the SB to slow down that K-gun offense is in the HOF & really set the blueprint for everyone else to follow if they had the personnel.
Other great offenses he slowed enough for Brady & co. to have a chance to win, Yup that "greatest show on turf" offense that SB who was blowing everyone out for 2 years. His defense held them to 17 pts. Did the EXACT same thing almost 20 years later to McVay's rams. Explosive Eagles offense in the SB...shut down. Explosive Manning led Indy Colts? shut down.
That was how they won in Brady's early years. His defenses slowed explosive offenses down enough to give the offense a decent shot to win...& they didn't beat themselves. Brady was largely a caretaker.
That was 2001. Brady had went from 4th string to backup and started when Bledsoe got injured early. Bledsoe spent the entire 2002 season on the Bills
sprtsfanatic
Veteran
wait....what???? Pep had an offensive scheme??? How come I never saw it???
Belichick is a defensive guru. He knew if his defense would give them a chance in the 4th, Mr Clutch would seal the deal.
& Brady was clutch enough to get Mr Clutch in range.
If you're going to use words like "obfuscate" I'm going to have to ask you to define your terms.
Like I said, "that guy" had had one winning season in six years.
The argument that Brady made Belichik looked better than he really was is very valid.
So Mills' number was pretty close to Montana's on his first Pro-Bowl.
I guess Mills deserved a Pro-Bowl nod?
So Mills' numbers were much better than Terry Bradshaw for the longest time.
Bradshaw couldn't get close to Mills for nearly a decade.
In fact, his number when he was an All-Pro was pretty close to Mills'.
Guess Mills should have been an All-Pro and a Hall-of-Famer.
Stats that lack context are terrible for comparisons.
Brady looked so like Mills, Belichik traded away the $108M-man Drew Bledsoe to keep him (Mills, ehr, Brady).
You're getting more ridiculous by the minute.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
If we are talking lack of context, I am pretty sure that the entire topic was that Mills being thrust into a starting role that he was thoroughly unprepared for had stats not dissimilar to Brady's first season starting when he too was thrust into a starting role due to injuries. Hard stop.
Brady wasn't GOAT Brady his first season on the field, regardless of the reason why he was on the field. IMO, the Patriots would have been a great team that season even if Bledsoe had started all season and Brady never saw the field. As context, Bledsoe went on to have a Pro Bowl season in Buffalo and Brady missed the playoffs with the Patriots.
No one tried to create correlation due to causation, either with the results of that first season for their respective teams or to suggest that Mills was on a Brady career arc. It was an interesting data point that maybe there was some hope for Mills, considering even the GOAT was pretty pedestrian in the same situation. Different outcome because overall Brady had a much better team, but individual stats showed similarities.
The context you attempted with Montana and Bradshaw was simply unnecessary hyperbole on your part in an attempt to win an internet argument.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Brady looked so like Mills, Belichik traded away the $108M-man Drew Bledsoe to keep him (Mills, ehr, Brady).
You're getting more ridiculous by the minute.
& you’ve officially run out of any credible argument to dispute anything i’ve said. You’ve never been able to analyze things in the environment and at the time they happen, so it doesn’t surprise me that you can’t in this situation.
If Belichick traded Bledsoe away and Brady went on to fold up like a David Carr, you’d be in here arguing why Belichick was such a bad HC b/c he traded away a pro bowler for a game manager who only had 18 TDs & 2800 yds passing. You have absolutely no context.
I was merely responded to post no. 52 by Mr Tex only.
I did not dispute whether Brady was still in a developmental phase.
All young QBs were, even Mahomes.
What I said was that the numbers put up by Brady may look similar to Mills', but they lack context and are very far from similar within the correct context.
(Same goes for Bradshaw's numbers).
I went on to say that the rules were very different back then.
(If you go back to the Bradshaw's days, for example, a QB may have more Ints than TDs and can still be a Pro-Bowler. That does not happen today).
Then I went on to show that Brady's TD percentage and Int pct. just outside top ten that year.
The same cannot be said for Mills. His numbers were closer to the bottom.
Belichek had had just one winning season in his first six years in the league and the Pats were 5-11 the year prior when Brady sat and watched Bledsoe lose.
Brady had but one good receiver; the rest of them may not even start for the Texans, including all the TEs.
So, in conclusion, using Brady's numbers to try to compare to Mills or Bradshaw or Montana was just futile, IMO.
You're talking about the following season here, weren't you?
This is something fun that I noticed (not in the interest of creating another argument): Look at Brady's numbers in that third year and compare them to his fourth and fifth year.
Tom Brady Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Checkout the latest stats for Tom Brady. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.
www.pro-football-reference.com
They were very similar, yet the Pats won the SB in year 4 and 5.
And then when his number were up in year 6, the Pats were a mere 10-6.
If, if, if.
I wasn't talking about any if.
You couldn't counter the argument and always resort to moving the goal post.
Give me a clutch game manager any day and twice on Sunday's. That's the definition of a franchise QB. IMHO
Those guys win championships, rather than guys who put up numbers but choke in the clutch and never win squat.
I'm reminded of a commercial where a bunch of NFL Heisman winners are sitting on a couch showing off their Heisman rings on their fingers and then the camera pans over to Joe Montana who's wearing 4 Super Bowl rings, rubbing them together making a bunch of noise, and he nods to the players and says "Impressive" in reference to them winning a Heisman.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
If, if, if.
I wasn't talking about any if.
You couldn't counter the argument and always resort to moving the goal post.
noone moves the goalposts, u just suck at making your cases & can’t keep up.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol, there’s no such thing as a “clutch” game manager b/c the game is never fully in their hands
There's nothing to keep up.
The singular point I was making is that you can't compare raw numbers from different eras of football.
That's futile and oh so wrong.