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Watson’s a top 5 qb. Do you agree?

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I agree that when our best 5 are on the field, the offensive line is WAY better.

What I meant (and its my bad for not being clearer) is that the oline has had a lot of injuries this year. Last game, Chris Clark was our part time LT...thats not good lol. The starting 5 will get even better as they have more time together.
I know that you know this, what's great is that the OL was dominant with Clark at LT.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Yeah, I just don't have a problem with the way guys like Watson, Russell Wilson, Steve Young, or Fran Tarkenton scramble. There's a difference in connotation, at least in my mind, between "running QB" and "scrambling QB". A running QB makes himself a target by running down the field. A scrambling QB is slippery and tries to stay behind the LOS to make a play. Michael Vick early in his career was a running QB. Watson is a scrambling QB. I'm OK with the latter. I think the good ones tend to suffer fewer catastrophic injuries and have longer NFL careers. Maybe just a perception thing on my part.
Really, you think Watson was a scrambling QB or a running QB when he got his lung punctured last yr? You think Watson was a scrambling QB or a Running QB when BOB has been using him like a tailback this yr? In fact do you think Watson was a scrambling or running QB on his TD run last game?
 

frethack

Rookie
I know that you know this, what's great is that the OL was dominant with Clark at LT.
The line was much better than expected with Clark and RJ sharing the load...totally agree. I was VERY encouraged by the Howards play, even still recovering from injury. The way he is rounding out, I think he will be a beast on the right side.

A less elusive QB would have been sacked more than just once, and we moved the pocket quite a bit to help the oline out...something that should have been done from the start of the season. I think another offseason with the starting 5 together will solidify this line and make them one of the best in the league. Very exciting.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
The line was much better than expected with Clark and RJ sharing the load...totally agree. I was VERY encouraged by the Howards play, even still recovering from injury. The way he is rounding out, I think he will be a beast on the right side.

A less elusive QB would have been sacked more than just once, and we moved the pocket quite a bit to help the oline out...something that should have been done from the start of the season. I think another offseason with the starting 5 together will solidify this line and make them one of the best in the league. Very exciting.

That's because they're not running those long developing routes like they were earlier in the season. Now you can mask the weakest links on the offensive line. You can get away with these plug ins until the starters get healthy. To be honest, the true starters were getting killed early on. Then Obrien finally went to the true EP with some RPO's mixed in it. And that's when the offensive line started losing starters to the line.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
That's because they're not running those long developing routes like they were earlier in the season. Now you can mask the weakest links on the offensive line. You can get away with these plug ins until the starters get healthy. To be honest, the true starters were getting killed early on. Then Obrien finally went to the true EP with some RPO's mixed in it. And that's when the offensive line started losing starters to the line.
The true EP system has never looked like this offense This is the BOB offense not the EP offense. Most of the sacks came because Watson was holding the ball too long.

Tell you what, go back and watch 3 series of the Clemson offense and go back and look at the offenses Parcels had and tell .e which offense looks most like the one BOB is currently running.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
The true EP system has never looked like this offense This is the BOB offense not the EP offense. Most of the sacks came because Watson was holding the ball too long.

Tell you what, go back and watch 3 series of the Clemson offense and go back and look at the offenses Parcels had and tell .e which offense looks most like the one BOB is currently running.
What is the true EP offense?
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
All Bill O’Brien and company did was enhanced the EP system. I posted a interview with Watson saying the entire offensive team put this great plan together. (Paraphrasing) it wasn’t just O’Brien. That should tell us Bill O’Brien has set aside his pride and is finally allowing the rest of his team to have some input on the playbook. The EP system is still being ran, it’s more enhanced not simplified.
The true EP system has never looked like this offense This is the BOB offense not the EP offense. Most of the sacks came because Watson was holding the ball too long.

If you ask me , we shouldn't be calling it the "EP System" …. instead it should be called the "EP Language" as this "System" is nothing more than describing and labeling plays.

The "System" has nothing to do with any mythical theory of offense.
 
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steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
What is the true EP offense?
Go back and look at any Parcels coached teams offense and you tell me what you see.

This is the BOB offense, which is the Clemson offense with a few EP principles sprinkled in.

Not that it really matters, I'm just glad BOB made the changes.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
Go back and look at any Parcels coached teams offense and you tell me what you see.

This is the BOB offense, which is the Clemson offense with a few EP principles sprinkled in.

Not that it really matters, I'm just glad BOB made the changes.
You always answer in this manner. Tell me what YOU see... I see similar plays in both

You're the one making allegations that they are 2 drastically different offenses
 

Earl34

Rookie
Go back and look at any Parcels coached teams offense and you tell me what you see.

This is the BOB offense, which is the Clemson offense with a few EP principles sprinkled in.

Not that it really matters, I'm just glad BOB made the changes.
I doubt I can change your mind. But here goes. If it doesn’t matter, why do you keep repeating it?

The Shanahan/Kubiak offense is a running, play action offense with various bootlegs by the QB. No one calls it a bootleg offense. It’s just known as their version of the WCO.

I don‘t understand why you can‘t understand a RPO is no different than a bootleg, I formation, offset I or even shotgun play. It’s simply a play or formation within an offense. The EP structure and terminology is still there.

Belichick has incorporated many spread concepts in his version of the EP offense. Do you call the Patriots’ offense, Air Raid or Art Briles‘ offense or Mike Leach’s offense or Run and Shoot or Chip Kelly’s spread offense or June Jones’ R&S?
 
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steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I doubt I can change your mind. But here goes. If it doesn’t matter, why do you keep repeating it?

The Shanahan/Kubiak offense is a running, play action offense with various bootlegs by the QB. No one calls it a bootleg offense. It’s just known as their version of the WCO.

I don‘t understand why you can‘t understand a RPO is no different than a bootleg, I formation, offset I or even shotgun play. It’s simply a play or formation within an offense. The EP structure and terminology is still there.

Belichick has incorporated many spread concepts in his version of the EP offense. Do you call the Patriots’ offense, Air Raid or Art Briles‘ offense or Mike Leach’s offense or Run and Shoot or Chip Kelly’s spread offense or June Jones’ R&S?
Yep, the Pats offense looks exactly like the Texans. Do you think the plays the Texans are running are in the Pats playbook?

Yes, the Walsh/Shanny/Kubiak offenses had different wrinkles but looked very similar. Are you telling me the Pats or any Parcells offense looks anything like what the BOB offense currently looks like?
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
You always answer in this manner. Tell me what YOU see... I see similar plays in both

You're the one making allegations that they are 2 drastically different offenses
The reason I do this is if you cant see with your own 2 eyes the differences between any Parcells teams offense or the Pats offense then your mind is already made up and I'm not going to change it. This is BOB's offense not the EP system and while it may have some of the same terminology the offenses couldn't be more different.
 

Earl34

Rookie
Yep, the Pats offense looks exactly like the Texans. Do you think the plays the Texans are running are in the Pats playbook?

Yes, the Walsh/Shanny/Kubiak offenses had different wrinkles but looked very similar. Are you telling me the Pats or any Parcells offense looks anything like what the BOB offense currently looks like?
Sigh. Why on earth would the Patriots run RPOs? Does that play to Brady”s strengths? Hell, the Patriots EP offense is different from Parcells. Does the Saints‘ offense look like Giants’ offense under Parcells? You realize Payton is also from the Parcells‘ EP tree?

Until you understand a play or formation doesn’t make a scheme, this conversation is pointless.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Sigh. Why on earth would the Patriots run RPOs? Does that play to Brady”s strengths? Hell, the Patriots EP offense is different from Parcells. Does the Saints‘ offense look like Giants’ offense under Parcells? You realize Payton is also from the Parcells‘ EP tree?

Until you understand a play or formation doesn’t make a scheme, this conversation is pointless.

Earl lol just agree it’s 100% Clemson offense because that’s the only offense Watson knows and understands. We’re just seeing through Steels eyes a sprinkle of the EP.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Sigh. Why on earth would the Patriots run RPOs? Does that play to Brady”s strengths? Hell, the Patriots EP offense is different from Parcells. Does the Saints‘ offense look like Giants’ offense under Parcells? You realize Payton is also from the Parcells‘ EP tree?

Until you understand a play or formation doesn’t make a scheme, this conversation is pointless.
Agreed

This conversation is pointless.
 

Texansphan

All Pro
We want a QB that runs as a last resort after he's gone through his progressions.

Funny how Brady/Brees/Manning lasted almost 2 decades and stayed relatively healthy playing this way. Heck, Doug Willis did the same thing if you want to stick with the black QB theme
I know off the top of my head that Manning only won a few games his first year.
Dude, I don't care what a players skin colour is - if he can play at the level Watson is so early in his career and he is a Texan, then he can be blue for all I care.
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
how about we get some definitions....

oh and the RPO plays the Texans implement from time to time are additions to our "EP offense" (and I salute O'Brien and the offensive brain trust for putting those in.). You won't see TB12 running those plays so those didn't come from NE. LoL

New England Patriots strategy
link (it's not a bad read, actually)

The Patriots run a modified "Ron Erhardt-Ray Perkins" offensive system[1] first installed by Charlie Weis under Bill Belichick. Both Ron Erhardt and Ray Perkins served as offensive assistant coaches under the defensive-minded Chuck Fairbanks while he was head coach of the Patriots in the 1970s.[1] This system is noted for its multiple formation and personnel grouping variations on a core number of base plays. Under this system, each formation and each play are separately numbered. Additional word descriptions further modify each play.​
Running gameEdit
The Erhardt-Perkins system traditionally had a reputation[citation needed] of being a smash-mouth offense that maximizes a team's time of possession and does not frequently call upon its running backs to serve as receivers.[2] Erhardt often said, "throw to score, run to win."[3] This may have been especially true during the years Bill Parcells ran this system as the head coach of the New York Giants.[4] This system was thought[by whom?] to be particularly well suited for teams playing in harsh outdoor weather conditions of the northeast of the United States.[citation needed]​
An example of a running play under this system is Zero, Ride Thirty-six. Zero sets the formation. Thirty indicates who will be the ball carrier running with the ball. Six indicates which hole between the offensive linemen the ball carrier will attempt to run through (see Offensive Nomenclature).[citation needed]​
Passing game
This offense traditionally used the run to set up the pass via play-action passing, faking the run in order to throw deep downfield when the defense is least expecting it. Despite its earlier reputation, this system is no longer a run first offense. Erhardt commonly ran the system in his later years spread wide open with multiple receivers (earning the moniker "Air Erhardt"), as NFL rules evolved to benefit the passing game. As a result of this influence, the Patriots will frequently run this offense with five potential receivers and an empty backfield should a favorable matchup present itself or as a function of available personnel. With the addition of Randy Moss and Wes Welker to the Patriots offense in 2007, the Patriots placed an emphasis on a wide open passing attack (with record setting results).[5] As rules of the NFL have loosened to favor the offense, the Patriots have increasingly adopted a wide open approach, to the point that they are often now thought of as a short pass first team. The Patriots have also made good extensive use of the non huddle offense to tire out defensive personnel and to disallow substitutions.​
Weis states in his autobiography "No Excuses" that the first play that he called in Super Bowl XXXVI was: Zero Flood Slot Hat, Seventy-eight Shout Tosser. Zero is the base formation: quarterback Tom Brady under center, running back Antowain Smith directly behind Brady, 7 yards in the backfield, and two tight ends, Jermaine Wiggins and Marc Edwards (normally the starting fullback). Flood Slot Hat further modifies this formation to line two wide receivers up to the left (David Patten wide and Troy Brown in the slot), to stack both tight ends on the right side of the formation, and to send running back Smith out to the right wide receiver spot in pre-snap motion. Thus the play began as a run-heavy look, yet at the time of the snap the Patriots had five receivers running pass patterns with an empty backfield. Seventy-eight is the base play number, a three-step drop play. Shout tells the three potential receivers on one side of the quarterback what routes they should run, while Tosser tells the other two potential receivers their patterns. On the actual play, Brady threw a quick slant to Brown for a 21-yard gain, 17 of it after the catch.​
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
how about we get some definitions....

oh and the RPO plays the Texans implement from time to time are additions to our "EP offense" (and I salute O'Brien and the offensive brain trust for putting those in.). You won't see TB12 running those plays so those didn't come from NE. LoL

New England Patriots strategy
link (it's not a bad read, actually)

The Patriots run a modified "Ron Erhardt-Ray Perkins" offensive system[1] first installed by Charlie Weis under Bill Belichick. Both Ron Erhardt and Ray Perkins served as offensive assistant coaches under the defensive-minded Chuck Fairbanks while he was head coach of the Patriots in the 1970s.[1] This system is noted for its multiple formation and personnel grouping variations on a core number of base plays. Under this system, each formation and each play are separately numbered. Additional word descriptions further modify each play.​
Running gameEdit
The Erhardt-Perkins system traditionally had a reputation[citation needed] of being a smash-mouth offense that maximizes a team's time of possession and does not frequently call upon its running backs to serve as receivers.[2] Erhardt often said, "throw to score, run to win."[3] This may have been especially true during the years Bill Parcells ran this system as the head coach of the New York Giants.[4] This system was thought[by whom?] to be particularly well suited for teams playing in harsh outdoor weather conditions of the northeast of the United States.[citation needed]​
An example of a running play under this system is Zero, Ride Thirty-six. Zero sets the formation. Thirty indicates who will be the ball carrier running with the ball. Six indicates which hole between the offensive linemen the ball carrier will attempt to run through (see Offensive Nomenclature).[citation needed]​
Passing game
This offense traditionally used the run to set up the pass via play-action passing, faking the run in order to throw deep downfield when the defense is least expecting it. Despite its earlier reputation, this system is no longer a run first offense. Erhardt commonly ran the system in his later years spread wide open with multiple receivers (earning the moniker "Air Erhardt"), as NFL rules evolved to benefit the passing game. As a result of this influence, the Patriots will frequently run this offense with five potential receivers and an empty backfield should a favorable matchup present itself or as a function of available personnel. With the addition of Randy Moss and Wes Welker to the Patriots offense in 2007, the Patriots placed an emphasis on a wide open passing attack (with record setting results).[5] As rules of the NFL have loosened to favor the offense, the Patriots have increasingly adopted a wide open approach, to the point that they are often now thought of as a short pass first team. The Patriots have also made good extensive use of the non huddle offense to tire out defensive personnel and to disallow substitutions.​
Weis states in his autobiography "No Excuses" that the first play that he called in Super Bowl XXXVI was: Zero Flood Slot Hat, Seventy-eight Shout Tosser. Zero is the base formation: quarterback Tom Brady under center, running back Antowain Smith directly behind Brady, 7 yards in the backfield, and two tight ends, Jermaine Wiggins and Marc Edwards (normally the starting fullback). Flood Slot Hat further modifies this formation to line two wide receivers up to the left (David Patten wide and Troy Brown in the slot), to stack both tight ends on the right side of the formation, and to send running back Smith out to the right wide receiver spot in pre-snap motion. Thus the play began as a run-heavy look, yet at the time of the snap the Patriots had five receivers running pass patterns with an empty backfield. Seventy-eight is the base play number, a three-step drop play. Shout tells the three potential receivers on one side of the quarterback what routes they should run, while Tosser tells the other two potential receivers their patterns. On the actual play, Brady threw a quick slant to Brown for a 21-yard gain, 17 of it after the catch.​

Like I said upthread - Its a "Language" Not a philosophy.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Playing together more created the stabilization along with changing the offense to get the ball out of Watson's hand quicker. It took 5 games but the OL is looking very good. Top 10, who would've thought that investing in the OL would lead to improved OL play. Good thing is all of these guys are young and should show alot of improvement with more experience.
Chris Clark was our LT. Remember how much you said Brady's struggles were due to his starting LT being injured? Remember how you said Mahomes biggest issue was his starting LT was injured?

Chris Clark was on our team for a week & a half. Ain't no gelling going on here hoss.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Chris Clark was our LT. Remember how much you said Brady's struggles were due to his starting LT being injured? Remember how you said Mahomes biggest issue was his starting LT was injured?

Chris Clark was on our team for a week & a half. Ain't no gelling going on here hoss.
Tunsil misses 1 game and you post this? LMAO
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
We all remember what the traditional Run-N-Shoot offense looked like back in the day. Today, they would have to give it a new name.....hence the new term "Spread" offense. Back in the day, the Oilers didn't incorporate TE's or FB's. Today, any team could run a modern day Run-N-Shoot (Spread) b/c of the evolution of NFL TE's. They're bigger, faster and can handle blocking in the process.

If a team wanted to run an empty backfield formation, they no longer have to rely on 5 wideouts exclusively. Today, that formation could be even more formidable b/c 2 TE's could be incorporated with the 3 wideouts. In my book, Spread offenses were the evolution of the exciting but vulnerable Run-N-Shoot offenses.

I also fully believe that more NFL teams have shot themselves in the foot by drafting successful "Spread" offense QB's and trying to force them into their conservative pocket passer type of offenses. The NFL has taken far too long to evolve offensively and burned up far too many young and talented QB's.

If Dabo was to bring his coaching style, staff and offensive/defensive philosophies to the Texans, there's no doubt in my mind......he would be successful.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
We all remember what the traditional Run-N-Shoot offense looked like back in the day. Today, they would have to give it a new name.....hence the new term "Spread" offense. Back in the day, the Oilers didn't incorporate TE's or FB's. Today, any team could run a modern day Run-N-Shoot (Spread) b/c of the evolution of NFL TE's. They're bigger, faster and can handle blocking in the process.

If a team wanted to run an empty backfield formation, they no longer have to rely on 5 wideouts exclusively. Today, that formation could be even more formidable b/c 2 TE's could be incorporated with the 3 wideouts. In my book, Spread offenses were the evolution of the exciting but vulnerable Run-N-Shoot offenses.

I also fully believe that more NFL teams have shot themselves in the foot by drafting successful "Spread" offense QB's and trying to force them into their conservative pocket passer type of offenses. The NFL has taken far too long to evolve offensively and burned up far too many young and talented QB's.

If Dabo was to bring his coaching style, staff and offensive/defensive philosophies to the Texans, there's no doubt in my mind......he would be successful.
If Dabo brings his offense he better draft 2 or 3 QB's that can play.

Will a form of Dabo's offense work in the NFL? It's working right now.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
How many of Swinney's starting qbs have gone down injured?
Watson for one, tore his ACL. I will let CnD speak to these circumstances, he's posted about this before. I cant remember the exact circumstances.

Lawrence missed games last yr and that was just in college.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Yes he did, but they don’t want tell that truth amazing80.
That's the truth but it's the way the offense is set up that causes these issues.

Not that I would expect you to understand what I'm talking about. Blocking Schemes/Routes etc...

He also got hurt under your beloved Dabo.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
Watson for one, tore his ACL. I will let CnD speak to these circumstances, he's posted about this before. I cant remember the exact circumstances.

Lawrence missed games last yr and that was just in college.
Lawrence didn't miss one game last year.

And so all of one of Dabo's 6 starting qbs over 10 full seasons has been sidelined with injury.

Real warzone his offense is for those kids..
 
You should be worried, he's blown out both of his ACL's with this style of play and it will happen again. When? Who knows. Could be in the 1st qtr of the next game. Could be 10 yrs from now, but it's going to happen.

Watson needs to learn how to sit in the pocket, read defenses and deliver the ball accurately if he wants to improve his game. Looks like BOB said screw it I agree with Corrosion and I'm going to call plays that gives Watson the opportunity to make plays off schedule. BTW, that ain't the EP system.
has a 70% completion percentage this season but carry on.

Dw a pocket passer that extends plays with his legs. Sometimes you’ll see Brady from him, other times you’ll get Wilson.

That’s what scares the **** out of Dc. He can adjust and gets better as the game goes along as long as his hc isn’t putting him in situations to fail.

you’re right about the injury but why should he be worried? you’re over exaggerating because he doesn’t play the same as rg3 and he’s avoiding the big hits now.

He’s an alien on the football field.
Defenses should be worried if anything. Theyre not use to playing a guy like Deshaun. The league should be worried. This guy hasn’t even peaked yet and he has all the intangibles and most importantly, he’s a natural leader.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Lawrence didn't miss one game last year.

And so all of one of Dabo's 6 starting qbs over 10 full seasons has been sidelined with injury.

Real warzone his offense is for those kids..
I seem to remember a 3rd string QB keeping their national championship hopes alive by throwing a late TD against Syracuse.
 

Mr.Scarface

Waterboy
has a 70% completion percentage this season but carry on.

Dw a pocket passer that extends plays with his legs. Sometimes you’ll see Brady from him, other times you’ll get Wilson.

That’s what scares the **** out of Dc. He can adjust and gets better as the game goes along as long as his hc isn’t putting him in situations to fail.

you’re right about the injury but why should he be worried? you’re over exaggerating because he doesn’t play the same as rg3 and he’s avoiding the big hits now.

He’s an alien on the football field.
Defenses should be worried if anything. Theyre not use to playing a guy like Deshaun. The league should be worried. This guy hasn’t even peaked yet and he has all the intangibles and most importantly, he’s a natural leader.
RG3 was screwed by the Skins by playing a playoff game on a TRASH field that gave underneath him. The ONLY game Watson took big hits out of the pocket was that Cowboys game where he thought he was superman (and he paid for with the lung). He learned his lesson.
 
RG3 was screwed by the Skins by playing a playoff game on a TRASH field that gave underneath him. The ONLY game Watson took big hits out of the pocket was that Cowboys game where he thought he was superman (and he paid for with the lung). He learned his lesson.
Sucks for rg3. With better coaching, he would still be playing in today’s game. I remember Watson getting blown up vs the cowboys. I was amazed a guy would sacrifice his lung to treat a regular season game as a playoff. It made me a even bigger fan of his. He’s a leader that’s willing to sacrifice his body. I hear guys like steelb saying we should be worried but trust me. This guys a warrior and he’ll play with a injury if he’s capable of it.
 

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Sucks for rg3. With better coaching, he would still be playing in today’s game. I remember Watson getting blown up vs the cowboys. I was amazed a guy would sacrifice his lung to treat a regular season game as a playoff. It made me a even bigger fan of his. He’s a leader that’s willing to sacrifice his body. I hear guys like steelb saying we should be worried but trust me. This guys a warrior and he’ll play with a injury if he’s capable of it.
Play with an injury? Here ya go!


Back in 2014, Watson tore his ACL in practice, missed one game and suited up for a rivalry game against South Carolina.


All he had was a knee brace, as doctors advised that Watson wasn't risking further injury. Still, given how serious an ACL injury is, it's almost unfathomable for a player to battle through a torn ACL. Well, Watson did, and he played great.

Watson was 14 of 19 passing in the game for 269 yards and two touchdowns. He rushed for 13 yards and two touchdowns as well (a long of nine yards). Clemson won the game, 35-17. Watson would miss the bowl game due to the injury.

If you needed any indication of Watson's toughness, that was it right there. Even on Thursday, Watson's reaction was uncommonly mild for ACL tears. According to ESPN's Adam Schefter, the team didn't think the injury was that serious until they ran tests at the Texans facility.

#JesuswithCleats
 

ATXtexanfan

Hall of Fame
Lamar is top 5
Whipped brady and DW4 in 3 weeks. Man I liked the kid. Dude earned respect today. He was off early. Then got it going. And yes had that wow play running. Dude will have his legs, when he gets it going as a passer

Look out
 


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