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The New New JaDeveon Clowney Thread

kiwitexansfan said:
Watt and Clowney are both getting doubled sometime and yet there are people running free in the secondary and no pressure on the QB.
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Mollywhopper said:
But I don't see any worshipping going on? Where are examples of people acting like he's the next anything?

No one is doing that.
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Most of the 95% think it's early in the process or he got hurt and both would be correct in my opinion . To me a bust is Ryan Leaf or Charles Rogers not a guy like KiJana Carter or Clowney .
 
Mollywhopper said:
But I don't see any worshipping going on? Where are examples of people acting like he's the next anything?

No one is doing that.
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Texian said:
About 95% of the folks who reside here, especially prior to the draft.
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You're so full of it...noone is worshipping Clowney here we just recognize that its still early in the process for him relative to how many games he's actually been healthy to play in. We realize that his injury set him back from a development standpoint. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that at least has something to do with what he's done from a production standpoint says all that needs to be said about your objectivity on the matter.

What you should be commenting on you're not...Like why your boy in Jax has yet to win a game on the road in his career thus far...I thought the big thing with him that sold you was his "clutchness"? You know all those great 4th qtr comebacks in college you were raving about? Thus far all this dude has done is throw pick 6's in crunch time and airmail passes.
 
For the record, I didn't want Clowney. I didn't think he was a fit for what we do. If we had to do it all again, I still wouldn't have picked Clowney. I still wouldn't have picked Bottles, or Bridgewater.

But I have been impressed with what Clowney has been able to do this far. He looks every bit the once in a generation athlete they said he was. I still don't like the fit.

I'd have much rather taken Greg Robinson. Injuries to Duane Brown & his decline in performance only reinforces my belief that we missed the boat on that one.

XSF's absence from the starting lineup doesn't help either.
 
thunderkyss said:
For the record, I didn't want Clowney. I didn't think he was a fit for what we do. If we had to do it all again, I still wouldn't have picked Clowney. I still wouldn't have picked Bottles, or Bridgewater.

But I have been impressed with what Clowney has been able to do this far. He looks every bit the once in a generation athlete they said he was. I still don't like the fit.

I'd have much rather taken Greg Robinson. Injuries to Duane Brown & his decline in performance only reinforces my belief that we missed the boat on that one.

XSF's absence from the starting lineup doesn't help either.
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I respect people who didn't want Clowney as a 1:1 pick. He was BPA in a draft with no legitimate 1:1 QB.

I laugh at the people who continually insist that he is a bust and refuse to acknowledge his career-threatening injury, that he is a league leader against the run, and is probably playing better than anyone on defense not named Watt or KJ2. They have a bias/agenda that they have sold so hard to everyone that there is no way they can change their position so they simply keep doubling down on the rhetoric.
 
I never have once said he's a bust. I was a Bridgewater guy, still am. I was cool with Bortles at #1 and Derek Carr in 2nd rd. I wanted a qb becausr its a qb driven league. All the top qbs were drafted by their team. The only exceptions were because of injury (brees and peyton).
As I stated before, you dont draft a guy that is supposed to be a pass rusher #1 and he cant get to the qb. I've also stated before the draft the foolishness about Clowney being doubled and tripled every play in college thats why his production suffered. I see the same foolishness is going on about him in the pros. According to most Watt is being doubled,Clowney is being doubled. So why arent crick,merci,vince,cushing,mckinney getting free run at qb? If 2 guys are taking 4 blockers and vince is in the center, that means crick,merci are free runners. Yet, this defense isnt even getting pressure.
Clowney is doing fine setting the edge and playing the run, which prior to the draft, i said was his best trait. Even before the lower leg injuries he was stiff against resistance. His inability to snap through,bend,and accelerate like von,aldon,or even someone bigger like jj limits how good of a pass rusher he can be.
 
leebigeztx said:
I never have once said he's a bust. I was a Bridgewater guy, still am. I was cool with Bortles at #1 and Derek Carr in 2nd rd. I wanted a qb becausr its a qb driven league. All the top qbs were drafted by their team. The only exceptions were because of injury (brees and peyton).
As I stated before, you dont draft a guy that is supposed to be a pass rusher #1 and he cant get to the qb. I've also stated before the draft the foolishness about Clowney being doubled and tripled every play in college thats why his production suffered. I see the same foolishness is going on about him in the pros. According to most Watt is being doubled,Clowney is being doubled. So why arent crick,merci,vince,cushing,mckinney getting free run at qb? If 2 guys are taking 4 blockers and vince is in the center, that means crick,merci are free runners. Yet, this defense isnt even getting pressure.
Clowney is doing fine setting the edge and playing the run, which prior to the draft, i said was his best trait. Even before the lower leg injuries he was stiff against resistance. His inability to snap through,bend,and accelerate like von,aldon,or even someone bigger like jj limits how good of a pass rusher he can be.
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My reply wasn't intended for you re: bust comments. Just speaking to general sentiment by a select group of people who pretty much piss and moan about everything.

And if Clowney is getting double teamed (assumed correctly or not) the lack of pressure from other players is no more on him than it is on JJ, who has 2 sacks in the last 4 games. I can't hold him accountable for what the rest of the defense is not doing.

I'm thankful that he is doing great against the run, setting the edge, TFL's and PD's. While not seeing sack stats, I'm happy that he is making plays in general. I still challenge that no one in the front 7 besides JJ is playing better than him on this defense. That may not be enough for some people out of a 1:1 pick, especially one touted as a pass rusher, but as the stats have been played to both sides of the argument regarding slow starts, no sacks at this point 6 games into his career tells us nothing about how he will end up down the road. The fact that he played Game 1 this season was a bit of minor miracle in and of itself.
 
leebigeztx said:
I never have once said he's a bust. I was a Bridgewater guy, still am.
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That's understandable. However, since we know we could have had Bridgewater by simply trading up into the bottom of the 1st (once he dropped past 19, I thought he became a value pick). So when I look back at it, we could have had Clowney & Bridgewater. I still would have preferred Robinson & Bridgewater.
 
sandman said:
I respect people who didn't want Clowney as a 1:1 pick. He was BPA in a draft with no legitimate 1:1 QB.

I laugh at the people who continually insist that he is a bust and refuse to acknowledge his career-threatening injury, that he is a league leader against the run, and is probably playing better than anyone on defense not named Watt or KJ2. They have a bias/agenda that they have sold so hard to everyone that there is no way they can change their position so they simply keep doubling down on the rhetoric.
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I was an anti-Clowney guy albeit for an injury concern which has not materialized.

But damn the chest thumping from the 'he's a lazy suck pass rusher' crew, as if they've been proven right on anything, is annoying. He hasn't proven to be lazy, quite the opposite and we will never know what a healthy Clowney would have been as a pass rusher.

I think he's doing a good job considering where he is in recovery.
 
infantrycak said:
I was an anti-Clowney guy albeit for an injury concern which has not materialized.

But damn the chest thumping from the 'he's a lazy suck pass rusher' crew, as if they've been proven right on anything, is annoying. He hasn't proven to be lazy, quite the opposite and we will never know what a healthy Clowney would have been as a pass rusher.

I think he's doing a good job considering where he is in recovery.
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Considering there was very real talk by our local medical experts that sitting him this entire season to ensure a full recovery was a viable option, the fact that they have gotten great run support from him along with 3 PD's in the first 5 games - without having his leg fall apart on him - is something I am not complaining about.
 
infantrycak said:
I was an anti-Clowney guy albeit for an injury concern which has not materialized.

But damn the chest thumping from the 'he's a lazy suck pass rusher' crew, as if they've been proven right on anything, is annoying. He hasn't proven to be lazy, quite the opposite and we will never know what a healthy Clowney would have been as a pass rusher.

I think he's doing a good job considering where he is in recovery.
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And that apparently makes us worshippers and him a hero.
 
sandman said:
Considering there was very real talk by our local medical experts that sitting him this entire season to ensure a full recovery was a viable option, the fact that they have gotten great run support from him along with 3 PD's in the first 5 games - without having his leg fall apart on him - is something I am not complaining about.
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You are differentiating between "he is playing pretty well for a guy fighting back from a devastating knee injury" and "he is playing really well in the NFL".

I have no problem with the first statement. Equating the two is the spin I referred to previously. They are not equal, especially given the "NFL playing" expectations of a once in a generation player taken 1/1.
 
infantrycak said:
Any draft expectations of Clowney flew out the window once the word microfracture was raised. Folks need to just let that go. All we can hope for now is that he is productive.
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Sure. I still think he needs to do more on the pass rushing side of things to be a truly productive player. He is supposed to be a pass rusher against defenses that also have to contend with JJ Watt. If that was anyone else out there the expectation would be the occasional sack. That is part of the job.

So right now he is doing pretty good for a guy coming off of a devastating knee injury, imo. It is kind of a race to see if he can improve into that productive player faster than the knee degenerates from use.
 
In addition to learning the NFL (what 9 NFL games, with a long hiatus) he is learning a new body, not just the knee but a new physique as well. He's getting close a lot and when doimg so being disruptive. I'm surprised he's playing this much or this well.

I'm a lot more concerned with all the stupid stunting, the lack of ILB blitzes, our merry-go-round at S, our refusal to play press, etc.
 
infantrycak said:
In addition to learning the NFL (what 9 NFL games, with a long hiatus) he is learning a new body, not just the knee but a new physique as well. He's getting close a lot. I'm surprised he's playing this much or this well.

I'm a lot more concerned with all the stupid stunting, the lack of ILB blitzes, our merry-go-round at S, our refusal to play press, etc.
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and in other news, Wade is doing a hell of a job.
 
Runner said:
Sure. I still think he needs to do more on the pass rushing side of things to be a truly productive player. He is supposed to be a pass rusher against defenses that also have to contend with JJ Watt. If that was anyone else out there the expectation would be the occasional sack. That is part of the job.

So right now he is doing pretty good for a guy coming off of a devastating knee injury, imo. It is kind of a race to see if he can improve into that productive player faster than the knee degenerates from use.
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Most of the development of a player in high school and college focuses on the physical side of becoming a great player..getting your weight & muscle tone up, speed, agility etc...Very little is devoted to the mental side of playing the game. Entrance into the NFL completely flips that. The mental side of playing the game becomes the primary focus and the physical takes a back seat. Guys have to learn the art of how to play the game mentally. How to manipulate a defense as a qb....how to read the defense as a rb for pass pro....how to set a guy up for a certain pass rush move. Clowney is no exeception to this despite his "once in a generation" tag.

I'd certainly like to see him getting the occasional sack as well, but again 6 full games into his career, this guy is still learning how to play the game on this level where you're not gonna blow everyone away with your athleticism....
 
Teams have figured you can max protect and still easily complete passes. All you have to do is run a rub/pick route combo. The Texans still can't defend it....
 
infantrycak said:
Any draft expectations of Clowney flew out the window once the word microfracture was raised. Folks need to just let that go. All we can hope for now is that he is productive.
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Yes those are mature and manageable expectations, but if we get lucky and he comes thru the whole recovery process better than most do who have gone thru that experience maybe we will realize a bonus dividend in his on field performances.
 
leebigeztx said:
Nobody is doubling clowney
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False. I will provide video evidence if need be. Clowney is getting doubled and chipped frequently.

Texian said:
Spurrier in his own way was pretty much was saying the same thing. Many of those here failed to believe it, offered up tons of excuses for Clowney's behavior and quite comically said Spurrier either didn't know what he was talking about or they said Spurrier said something completely different than what he actually said. A classic case of people hearing and seeing what they want to see and hear.
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Let's settle this. Spurrier said:

“He was OK. It wasn’t like Marcus Lattimore, you know, every player is a little different,” Spurrier said. “His work habits are pretty good, they’re not quite like Lattimore, maybe Stephon Gilmore, Melvin Ingram, some of those guys, but when the ball is snapped he’s got something no one else has.”
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So remind me again what the guys he praised for having superior work ethic have done in the NFL thus far? Oh that's right... absolutely nothing. So I am not sure why anyone would take what Spurrier said and turn it into a negative about Clowney, unless of course you have a narrative. Seems to me those guys needed all that extra work ethic just to be decent. Clowney should have silenced this nonsense with his speedy return and play to date after such a devastating injury. But you guys just keep pushing this nonsense.

Texian said:
and in other news, Wade is doing a hell of a job.
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Just wait until late in the season, or next year.

dtran04 said:
Teams have figured you can max protect and still easily complete passes. All you have to do is run a rub/pick route combo. The Texans still can't defend it....
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Great observation. And as Cak said. We can't run those same routes to save our lives. I see very few of those plays even attempted and when they are, they are poorly executed.
 
At this point, what difference does it make what Clowneys now retired college coach said about him back in college and his work ethic one way or the other ?
We now have our own Clowney-in-the-NFL-file as he comes thru a season-ending injury in 2014 that required surgery and a lengthy rehab and recovery and now his on field performances in 2015.
 
Nitrofish said:
False. I will provide video evidence if need be. Clowney is getting doubled and chipped frequently.



Let's settle this. Spurrier said:



So remind me again what the guys he praised for having superior work ethic have done in the NFL thus far? Oh that's right... absolutely nothing. So I am not sure why anyone would take what Spurrier said and turn it into a negative about Clowney, unless of course you have a narrative. Seems to me those guys needed all that extra work ethic just to be decent. Clowney should have silenced this nonsense with his speedy return and play to date after such a devastating injury. But you guys just keep pushing this nonsense.



Just wait until late in the season, or next year.



Great observation. And as Cak said. We can't run those same routes to save our lives. I see very few of those plays even attempted and when they are, they are poorly executed.
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I don't understand why crennel isn't having our CB's jam the WRs on the line of scrimmage more to disrupt the timing on those quick passes and to allow our defense more time to get to the qb. Are our CB's not capable of that?
 
mussop said:
I don't understand why crennel isn't having our CB's jam the WRs on the line of scrimmage more to disrupt the timing on those quick passes and to allow our defense more time to get to the qb. Are our CB's not capable of that?
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If you find the answer please post it. I have read numerous opinions about the defense this year and no one can figure out what exactly they are trying to do.

Which leads me to believe that maybe Crennel doesn't even know what he is trying to do
 
DX-TEX said:
If you find the answer please post it. I have read numerous opinions about the defense this year and no one can figure out what exactly they are trying to do.

Which leads me to believe that maybe Crennel doesn't even know what he is trying to do
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Seems like he's trying to tire out the WRs by letting them run free. Maybe they'll get so tired they won't catch the ball anymore.
That's the only strategy I see possible.
 
mussop said:
I don't understand why crennel isn't having our CB's jam the WRs on the line of scrimmage more to disrupt the timing on those quick passes and to allow our defense more time to get to the qb. Are our CB's not capable of that?
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Because our corners are not physical like that. They do not have the size or strength or speed you need to play that kind of coverage. They will then start getting beat over the top if they press. Crennel is playing the bend don't break style that worked in NE. Then when the field compresses in the red zone they can get a little more aggressive. The problem is the pass rush is not getting there.
 
mussop said:
I don't understand why crennel isn't having our CB's jam the WRs on the line of scrimmage more to disrupt the timing on those quick passes and to allow our defense more time to get to the qb. Are our CB's not capable of that?
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I've pointed this out during every game day thread..........makes absolutely no sense to continually play the CBs way off the line.
 
Nitrofish said:
Because our corners are not physical like that. They do not have the size or strength or speed you need to play that kind of coverage. They will then start getting beat over the top if they press. Crennel is playing the bend don't break style that worked in NE. Then when the field compresses in the red zone they can get a little more aggressive. The problem is the pass rush is not getting there.
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But even small corners can typically at least chip large receivers to mess with their timing, if they are properly taught/coached on how to do it. You can't keep giving up 10-15 yds at the LOS, when a 1st down usually only requires 5 yds or less.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I've pointed this out during every game day thread..........makes absolutely no sense to continually play the CBs way off the line.
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We were told that our defense would play many formations and change week to week. Here we are week after week doing the same **** over and over.

If our CB's are that weak, I don't believe they are, at least mix it up. Play off the wr until the last minute the press when stunts and blitzes are called.

Over load one side sometimes, show full out blitzes and back out of them at the last second. Show some freaking creativity for God's sake. Have some balls.
 
Jackson and boyue are anything but weak. We play a lot of zone the problem is theses cb are letting there recover get open and there not jumping routes more IMO if u play zone u should be getting more ints
 
mussop said:
We were told that our defense would play many formations and change week to week. Here we are week after week doing the same **** over and over.

If our CB's are that weak, I don't believe they are, at least mix it up. Play off the wr until the last minute the press when stunts and blitzes are called.

Over load one side sometimes, show full out blitzes and back out of them at the last second. Show some freaking creativity for God's sake. Have some balls.
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Well said.

Have we run a CB or S blitz this season?
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
But even small corners can typically at least chip large receivers to mess with their timing, if they are properly taught/coached on how to do it. You can't keep giving up 10-15 yds at the LOS, when a 1st down usually only requires 5 yds or less.
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I understand the frustration, and agree it's maddening. And I am not defending this tactic, simply pointing out what I think they believe in their scheme. But if you miss the jam at the LOS --which happens-- then you are at a significant disadvantage. I know these corners at least can play press because they have done it in Wade's D. But they also played off a lot also. Personally I like an attacking defense, but more conservative minds want to play it safe I guess.

If I were the HC no fan would be left wanting for action because I would be attacking on both sides of the ball. But that can lead to big plays against you and you know how fans can be. Some would be delighted that our team left it all out on the field win or lose, while others would call me reckless. So I imagine there has to be a happy medium in the somewhere. I agree with Mussop. Mix it up, disguise coverage, fake some blitzes, and blitz from different places when you do decide to blitz. Just all seems way to predictable to me.
 
Norg said:
Jackson and boyue [sic] are anything but weak.
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Kareem Jackson
5'10" 188lbs

AJ Bouye
6' 192lbs

It's not necessarily about being too weak to jam. It's about being able to recover and get back into the play if you miss the jam and the LOS. It's just Romeo's scheme. It's what he believes in. On another note on the scheme though. This is not a two gap 3-4. I have seen very little of that. It was supposed to free up LB's to make tackles but linemen are all up on our LB's or pulling guards are destroying them in the hole.
 
Norg said:
Jackson and boyue are anything but weak. We play a lot of zone the problem is theses cb are letting there recover get open and there not jumping routes more IMO if u play zone u should be getting more ints
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I don't know about more INTs, but definitely more PDs. I don't have a problem with playing off the ball. Lots of teams do it & do it well. The problem, is two fold imo.

  1. For the most part, they have no feel for when the receiver is looking for the ball. They need to be watching the receiver for tells, or the QB. When they see/feel the ball is coming, they need to drive on it... they should get to the receiver at the same time as the ball. Either knock it down, jump the route & intercept it, or knock the ever loving snot out of anyone trying to catch it. I've seen KJohnson do this a few times... the right way, with the right results.
  2. The underneath coverage should force the QB to wait, or throw the ball a little higher than he wants. Normally there is no underneath coverage. I don't know if they're freelancing & rushing the OL on every snap, or biting on play fakes, or keying on some motion in the backfield. But they're not getting back. They're not challenging any routes. It's pitch & catch for QBs when the LBs are up on the LOS & the DBs are playing deep zones.
Good defense is mostly (hyperbole) about guessing right more times than not, or guessing more right than wrong most of the time. Down & distance, score, tendencies, personnel, formations.... we should have some idea about what the defense is going to try to do... but it looks like the front 7 are expecting one thing & the DBs are expecting something else. The left side of the line is expecting pass & the right side is playing run. It looks like they're going in on film day & watching Animal House.
 
Nitrofish said:
False. I will provide video evidence if need be. Clowney is getting doubled and chipped frequently.



Let's settle this. Spurrier said:



So remind me again what the guys he praised for having superior work ethic have done in the NFL thus far? Oh that's right... absolutely nothing. So I am not sure why anyone would take what Spurrier said and turn it into a negative about Clowney, unless of course you have a narrative. Seems to me those guys needed all that extra work ethic just to be decent. Clowney should have silenced this nonsense with his speedy return and play to date after such a devastating injury. But you guys just keep pushing this nonsense.



Just wait until late in the season, or next year.



Great observation. And as Cak said. We can't run those same routes to save our lives. I see very few of those plays even attempted and when they are, they are poorly executed.
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Before you post the videos of clowney being doubled, make sure you understand what a double team looks like.

Also, teams aren't doing alot of max protect either. Teams are getting the ball out quickly because none of the lbs are squeezing the windows. Atl ran 11 personel all day and it was like 7 on 7 drills.Colts did the same.
 
leebigeztx said:
2 players step in the same direction to block.
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Yeah I thought so. Your customized definition. Most folks figure if 2 or more people are assigned to block someone in series or parallel it's a double.

Yours doesn’t even make sense. A DT could get doubled by a C and G taking steps in opposite directions.
 
leebigeztx said:
Before you post the videos of clowney being doubled, make sure you understand what a double team looks like.

Also, teams aren't doing alot of max protect either. Teams are getting the ball out quickly because none of the lbs are squeezing the windows. Atl ran 11 personel all day and it was like 7 on 7 drills.Colts did the same.
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dlgrrl.jpg
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
How much does his weight gain hurt him ?
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CloakNNNdagger said:
I can't quantify that..........I can only say that I don't see how it could help him. They could say they it was hamstring and quad buildup that would stabilize his knee. But I would be dubious that the 17 pounds can be attributed to that. The heavier an athlete, the more stress is transferred to knees. And, therefore, the more stress, to wear down the pseudo-cartilage, placed on the microfracture knee.
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IDEXAN said:
http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-med...r-Sunday/ecc04b07-229e-457f-8d6f-18654a122819
****
This is the weeks HoustonTexans.com video segment which includes an interview with Clowney. And they mention again here that he's 15 lbs heavier which puts him at
MOL 280 I guess. I believe Doc has said that he does not like him at the new elevated weight given his injury/surgery history.
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I will try to give some perspective to weight gain's potential effect on Clowney's knee. When you simply walk, your knees endure a force equivalent to about three times your body weight (This, of course, does not even account for the expected additional force placed on the knee when he runs, accelerates, decelerates, jumps or cuts.). In other words, each extra pound adds about three pounds of pressure to your knees. The more you weigh, the more pressure you exert on that knee. This can't help but contribute to premature deterioration of his post microfracture surgical knee.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I will try to give some perspective to weight gain's potential effect on Clowney's knee. When you simply walk, your knees endure a force equivalent to about three times your body weight (This, of course, does not even account for the expected additional force placed on the knee when he runs, accelerates, decelerates, jumps or cuts.). In other words, each extra pound adds about three pounds of pressure to your knees. The more you weigh, the more pressure you exert on that knee. This can't help but contribute to premature deterioration of his post microfracture surgical knee.
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I can say with certainty that since I have lost 60 lbs my arthritic knee has gotten to a point I rarely notice it now if ever. It used to get my attention almost daily.
 
Don't we all know Clowney has 2-3 years at best?

One of the problems with Great Danes is they grow so fast sometimes their hearts give out as pups. Some of these incredible athletes like Clowney who bloom early and seem like men among boys strike me the same way. Their bodies grew too fast and took on too much demand too early.
 
infantrycak said:
Don't we all know Clowney has 2-3 years at best?

One of the problems with Great Danes is they grow so fast sometimes their hearts give out as pups. Some of these incredible athletes like Clowney who bloom early and seem like men among boys strike me the same way. Their bodies grew too fast and took on too much demand too early.
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LeBron seems to be doing fine.
 
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