Wish to make a one time donation? Make it here.

The New New JaDeveon Clowney Thread

disaacks3

Moderator
Staff member
Sure, but the trade issues weren't necessarily about a replacement. They were about what did we get for his value.

It's very nice to see Mercilus taking advantage of this opportunity.

It'd be even nicer if he were doing so and we'd gotten more than whatever Jacob Martin may be and a ham sandwich.
I agree, but there's been two distinct complaints / issues.

1. We got scalped in the trade. - I still think we should have held out until he was forced to report and had him fresh for the stretch run. As it stands, we got reamed.

2. We couldn't replace his production. - we've shown that we "can", but it remains to be seen whether that holds up for the season.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
I agree, but there's been two distinct complaints / issues.

1. We got scalped in the trade. - I still think we should have held out until he was forced to report and had him fresh for the stretch run. As it stands, we got reamed.

2. We couldn't replace his production. - we've shown that we "can", but it remains to be seen whether that holds up for the season.
- Agreed with number 1 entirely.

- I guess I was in the camp that already thought Mercilus would be at least mostly capable of stepping back into his more natural position. So this comes off as kind of more like taunting a guy who was just trying to look after his own career. Could well be that I'm taking it the wrong way though. Wouldn't be the first, or last, time.
 

zshawn10

All Pro
With Clowney being there Mercilus couldn't do what he's supposed to, which is this whether it's the scheme or they thought he wasn't good enough to do that
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
What if Clowney comes back to the Texans after he realizes that he needs JJ Watt as much as Watt needs him?

That would be swell.
Yep. Clowney was doubled last year letting Watt get sacks. Now Watt is getting doubled letting Mercilus get sacks.

If Watt misses time I don't see mercilus getting these numbers
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
What if Clowney comes back to the Texans after he realizes that he needs JJ Watt as much as Watt needs him?

That would be swell.
Even with Jj Watt he was only a good pass rusher. Not great. He's a great football player, don't get me wrong. But he is not an elite pass rusher.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JB

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
Even with Jj Watt he was only a good pass rusher. Not great. He's a great football player, don't get me wrong. But he is not an elite pass rusher.
In his last 5 full seasons he averaged 17 sacks a year ... I'm not sure how that doesn't qualify from being an elite pass rusher ... ?

And that doesn't even begin to take into account the ridiculous volume of qb hurries and hits..
 

ObsiWan

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
Even with Jj Watt he was only a good pass rusher. Not great. He's a great football player, don't get me wrong. But he is not an elite pass rusher.
would have been good to have Clowney's run stopping talents to keep Kamara from gashing us. There's more to D-line play than rushing the passer.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
I agree, but there's been two distinct complaints / issues.

1. We got scalped in the trade. - I still think we should have held out until he was forced to report and had him fresh for the stretch run. As it stands, we got reamed.

2. We couldn't replace his production. - we've shown that we "can", but it remains to be seen whether that holds up for the season.
......don't forget, it also remains to be seen if Clowney will hold up for the season. Mercilus had his best season when Watt was out and he filled Clowney's position while Clowney filled Watt's. I figured from the beginning, when I started talking about trading Clowney that Mercilus could once again be looking at a favorable season simply b/c Watt will command more attention than Clowney did, thus loosening things up for Clowney and others on the defense.

As for the trade, OB got rode hard. This was a horrible use of a prime chess piece. Had they put Clowney on the market from the start of camp or his hold-out......then return would've been damm nice.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
would have been good to have Clowney's run stopping talents to keep Kamara from gashing us. There's more to D-line play than rushing the passer.
.....yeah, same as lining up in the neutral zone or jumping off sides at the worst possible times. It's a gut punch when the defense had a 3rd down stop and those type of penalties ushered in a new set of downs. Clowney didn't do this all time but when he did it.....it seemed to hurt the most. Watt was a guilty of this as well.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
would have been good to have Clowney's run stopping talents to keep Kamara from gashing us. There's more to D-line play than rushing the passer.
I understand. But the cost is out of whack for a run stopper. & Clowney wouldn't have been much help with Kamara killing us as a receiver.

That's what opened up their run game.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
I am bring this post back up again to try to demonstrate how the internet can distort information for those who are not privy to raw data. The raw data in the footballoutsiders article, the data was not only misrepresented but grossly false in so many ways that it was virtually worthless. I took the time to communicate with them and after reviewing their data, they acted responsibly shortly thereafter by altogether removing the paragraph including the link referring to the NFL list of 61 NFL players that supposedly had "successful" microfracture procedures.

In general basketball has shown better results in players......not great. Football players, unless the lesion is quite small has never been shown to be predictable and certainly not long term. The Steadman Clinic in Colorado first began performing these surgeries in the late '80s. Uncle Rico correctly pointed out that players very early on like Marino underwent microfracture and went on to long careers. But what wasn't said is that for many years, micro fracture was limited ONLY to small defects. Success thus was more likely. Many surgeon have actually felt that in these cases, no surgery would have resulted in similar long-term outcomes. As with many procedures, surgeons decided to expand and test the limits of the surgery and accordingly, the success rate plumetted, especially in terms of longevity. Today, if one wants a decent chance of longevity, they will choose the route of transplanting cartilage with the underlying bone attached..........of course, this is more like a 2 year recovery instead of a 1 year. So athletes are not as likely to choose that route.

The second article included return in a single regular season game as "successful return" in their raw data.

I didn't want to bore everyone and get into all the nitty gritty details, and this is in no way to denigrate @Uncle Rico, but to make this point. The combination of the above two sources demonstrate the pitfalls of non-experts writing of medical technically sensitive subjects and/or lay persons trying to interpret them without trusted guidance.
 
Last edited:

Uncle Rico

Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I am bring this post back up again to try to demonstrate how the internet can distort information for those who are not privy to raw data. The raw data in the footballoutsiders article, the data was not only misrepresented but grossly false in so many ways that it was virtually worthless. I took the time to communicate with them and after reviewing their data, they acted responsibly shortly thereafter by altogether removing the paragraph including the link referring to the NFL list of 61 NFL players that supposedly had "successful" microfracture procedures.

In general basketball has shown better results in players......not great. Football players, unless the lesion is quite small has never been shown to be predictable and certainly not long term. The Steadman Clinic in Colorado first began performing these surgeries in the late '80s. Uncle Rico correctly pointed out that players very early on like Marino underwent microfracture and went on to long careers. But what wasn't said is that for many years, micro fracture was limited ONLY to small defects. Success thus was more likely. Many surgeon have actually felt that in these cases, no surgery would have resulted in similar long-term outcomes. As with many procedures, surgeons decided to expand and test the limits of the surgery and accordingly, the success rate plumetted, especially in terms of longevity. Today, if one wants a decent chance of longevity, they will choose the route of transplanting cartilage with the underlying bone attached..........of course, this is more like a 2 year recovery instead of a 1 year. So athletes are not as likely to choose that route.

The second article included return in a single regular season game as "successful return" in their raw data.

I didn't want to bore everyone and get into all the nitty gritty details, and this is in no way to denigrate @Uncle Rico, but to make this point. The combination of the above two sources demonstrate the pitfalls of non-experts writing of medical technically sensitive subjects and/or lay persons trying to interpret them without trusted guidance.

It was an honor and a real treat to get to talk to "Doc" personally about this matter and several other personal topics that brought me some peace. I will always embrace an opportunity to learn something new and to graciously accept a correction for any of my missteps that were in no way,shape or form intended to take the place of a true medical professionals opinion. We live in an information age where any question we may have can be answered within a fraction of a second. Many times that is beneficial in allowing for more enlightenment and self growth, other times it is a slippery slope where in my case my rabid fanaticism allowed my research to be somewhat misguided in terms of veracity and 3rd party exclusions for clicks. I should have taken a more pragmatic approach but there was a lot of static on this topic; and still is; and done a better job of remaining 'study neutral' in my information gathering.

Now with all that being said, and after listening to what the good Dr had to say, and how there is more than enough reason to be wary of JD and anyone with a certain procedure before science and medicine could provide a better method of recovery or treatment protocols - there are STILL examples out there that say it can be done. Say what you will, and I take no glee from being right or wrong on any topic mind you, I have my opinions, and I do the best to offer my perspective to show why I feel the way I do. I'll bring up Duane Brown because that has always been something that sticks in my craw. When Duane was hurt, he too was supposed to be on borrowed time or that he would never recover to be the same player he was. Reality has been that he not only recovered, but was a member of the All Pro team just last year, he has shown that he was able to overcome. Now, if he's getting scopes on his knees to remove liquid, and is dealing with great pain then it just shows the intestinal fortitude and desire to be successful. Duane didnt need to play anymore, he could have retired, made enough money - married to a very rich woman. Still he put his broken body through the rigors and while it may impair significantly his golden years he still DID show that he was NOT done.

I feel similarly about JD. Its the fan in me. I would rather live with positive hope and good will, than to invite a negative scenario in order to say "i was right, you were wrong" .. if/when the knee blows up like alot of you guys say then I'll be the first person to accept it. Sadly - and not with some sort of morbid happiness in order to justify the treatment and undervaluation he received while here. JD hasnt made the type of money Duane has made so I can see why he will push until he can solidify that payday and he may never get it because of career ending injury or the paralysis by teams due to the microfracture procedure he underwent now 6 years ago, OR he could go on to amaze everyone involved. There are ALWAYS outliers in statistics.

Its all done though. Most of you guys can go back to rooting for your Texan Only players and when they get hurt, you toss them aside and keep it moving, but Im an old school guy who does develop attachments to players that against all odds prove alot of people wrong. Im an eternal optimist at heart and that sometimes gets me in trouble. As is life.

Sorry If I mislead anyone by posting the information I gathered, it was not an intentional attempt at deception and I will try to do a better job of fact checking moving on and using the Dr as a resource when I encounter difficult medical subjects.

PS: thanks @CloakNNNdagger also for the added insight to locker room situations, and other managerial aspects of the team that many like myself were never aware of. I have no doubt that Doc has a plethora of contacts among his contemporaries and further into case specific situations within our own team. While it may not sway my personal opinion of how the team is run and how much stock to take among the different players and coaches within the hierarchy, it will help me at keeping a level head when poor decisions are made.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame

watt99x99

Waterboy
Texans WON JC trade HAHAHHA loving our depth in LBs and JC has 1 sack this season. on top of it, their run D was so bad vs ravens. HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA TOLD YOU!
 

watt99x99

Waterboy
Seattle’s pass-rush was not very effective, and while this was presumably an effort to contain Jackson in the pocket, it still did not work, as he escaped numerous times and made the bulk of his plays on scrambles. Jadeveon Clowney, in particular, did not seem to show up much on his pass-rush assignments, although he did make a number of impressive run stops.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-7-pff-refocused-baltimore-ravens-30-seattle-seahawks-16
lmao all he had was 3 solo tackle and 1 of 3 for yds lose. he's been so bad this year. we won that trade 100%. knew his lazy ass will be exposed without JJ and Merci
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame

"
At least Clowney was a noticeably disruptive force Sunday, showing up in the Ravens’ backfield all afternoon long. Ansah did not play for the third time this season, inactive with an ankle injury.

Clowney supporters will argue that he’s made a difference, not only as a pass rusher but as a run defender. He’s caused several holding penalties and draws double teams that allow his defensive-line teammates more room to operate. "
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
"
At least Clowney was a noticeably disruptive force Sunday, showing up in the Ravens’ backfield all afternoon long. Ansah did not play for the third time this season, inactive with an ankle injury.

Clowney supporters will argue that he’s made a difference, not only as a pass rusher but as a run defender. He’s caused several holding penalties and draws double teams that allow his defensive-line teammates more room to operate. "
Notice he said "Clowney supporters"....You also left out this little tidbit:

"But for a guy who thinks he’s worth $20 million a year in free agency after the season ends? Maybe you’re seeing that, but I’m not."

Not to mention the whole rest of the article...which by the way was written a day after Lamar Jackson ran all over them for a buck 16. So much for that elite run defender status.

Its about splash plays & for all of the nice PFF grades you love citing when it comes to him, Clowney just doesn't make enough of them to be considered elite at anything let alone being paid as an elite defender. At this point, his production isn't even on par with Mercy. Hell if You look up Clowney's stats & compare them to even Scarlett's, Clowney ain't doing too much more than him right now. Even Omenihu in very limited snaps has more sacks than Clowney right now. Dude is losing so much money....as of right now anyway. He has time to turn it around but geez.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Notice he said "Clowney supporters"....You also left out this little tidbit:

"But for a guy who thinks he’s worth $20 million a year in free agency after the season ends? Maybe you’re seeing that, but I’m not."

Not to mention the whole rest of the article...which by the way was written a day after Lamar Jackson ran all over them for a buck 16. So much for that elite run defender status.

Its about splash plays & for all of the nice PFF grades you love citing when it comes to him, Clowney just doesn't make enough of them to be considered elite at anything let alone being paid as an elite defender. At this point, his production isn't even on par with Mercy. Hell if You look up Clowney's stats & compare them to even Scarlett's, Clowney ain't doing too much more than him right now. Even Omenihu in very limited snaps has more sacks than Clowney right now. Dude is losing so much money....as of right now anyway. He has time to turn it around but geez.
I don't care how much he gets paid. He's better than bark, mingo, Scarlett, omenigu and any other sorry ass scrub you mentioned
 


Top