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The Johnny "Football" Manziel NFL thread

I promised in this thread that I would wait until the end of the 2015 season before resurrecting my pre/post draft 'I told you so's'. A quarterback can't be judged on his rookie season, especially when near arrests and regression are to be had as a sophomore.
 
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From the Browns beat writer:

The Browns can't count on Johnny Manziel as their franchise quarterback and need to draft one high: Mary Kay Cabot analysis
By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com

on November 12, 2015 at 11:19 AM, updated November 12, 2015 at 12:37 PM


BEREA, Ohio -- The Browns can't count on Johnny Manziel as their franchise quarterback -- on or off the field -- and need to draft a quarterback high in the 2016 draft.

If it weren't for Josh McCown's achy ribs, Manziel would be stuck on the bench Sunday in Pittsburgh despite the fact the Browns are 2-7 and need to see what their 2014 No. 22 overall pick can do. As it is, he might get the start if McCown can't go, but only by default.

The front office might still believe that Manziel can be the guy -- general manager Ray Farmer said as much last week -- but the coaching staff has obviously come to the same conclusion that Kyle Shanahan and Dowell Loggains did last year before skipping out of the building: that Manziel is miles away from being an NFL starter.

That's not to say that Manziel will never get there. He's made progress this year and if he dedicates himself to the game, he might surprise all the smart football people who don't believe he can cut it. Even Steelers coach Mike Tomlin declined to compliment Manziel on a conference call Wednesday, saying, "there's not much I'd be willing to share'' and stating that it's obvious McCown "is the guy.''

Three questions later, Tomlin was effusive in his praise of running back Duke Johnson, so it's not like he's unwilling to pump up the opposition.

Granted, Manziel has started only four NFL games, but two offensive staffs who have worked closely with him for a season have concluded that he's not ready now -- and may never be. And these are coaches who were initially as enamored with Manziel's athletic ability as his legions of Texas A&M fans. There's no question that Manziel is still as exciting as ever, darting around and firing bullets on the run.

But the Bengals broadcast the blueprint on national television last week for how to siphon the air from Johnny Football: Keep him in the pocket and watch him squirm. Watch him try to hoist the ball over 6-7 ends and wilt in the process.

Browns Johnny Manziel on learning to stay in the pocket Cleveland Browns quarterback Johnny Manziel talks about the need for him to stay in the pocket longer. “There are going to be times where I’m not going to be able to see everything like everyone else,” Manziel said about his height.

Even Manziel on Wednesday acknowledged that he's different than his taller brethren in the NFL, such as the 6-4 McCown.

"I'm not going to be able to sit there like some of these taller quarterbacks in the league and just be able to see everything happen as it plays on,'' he said. "There's going to be times I'm going to have to make a faith throw.''

And why won't he be to see things clearly?

"Well, (Cincinnati's) Michael Johnson's 6-7 and Carlos Dunlap's 6-8, so I'm like 5-11½, I guess,'' he said.

Other quarterbacks such as Drew Brees and Russell Wilson have overcome their height challenges, but they're exceptions to the NFL rule. Again, it's not that Manziel can't do ever do it, but he's not there yet. And if he's not ready midway through his second NFL season, the Browns can't count on him as their starter for next year. The offense tumbled from 18th in the NFL to 27th after Manziel missed a ton of throws in Cincinnati.

Besides, with another high first-round pick -- they're currently at No. 3 -- they can't pass up another opportunity to grab one of the best prospects of 2016 such as Paxton Lynch from Memphis; Jared Goff from California; or Connor Cook from Michigan State, a Cuyahoga Falls native and Walsh Jesuit grad. All of them, by the way, are 6-4 or taller.

But drafting a quarterback high doesn't necessarily mean the Browns are banished to rebuilding mode in 2016. McCown can win games until the youngster's ready, providing the Browns surround him with some talent this time around.

As for the off-the-field stuff, Manziel is sending up some enormous red flags and the Browns are concerned, even though they won't admit it publicly. The photos of Manziel over the weekend at Texas A&M, first published on bustedcoverage.com, were relatively tame for Manziel, but still a sign that he's slipping off track. Full-blown relapse doesn't doesn't always happen overnight.

Going out on the town is normal for most guys his age, but Manziel isn't most 22-year-olds. He's less than a year removed from admitting he had a problem and checking himself into rehab. No one knows exactly what he went in for, but any licensed chemical-abuse counselor would tell you that Manziel is engaging in high-risk behaviors regardless of what substance he may have been battling.

What's more, Manziel is still under review by the NFL for possibly violating the league's personal-conduct policy during his Oct. 12 roadway incident with his girlfriend, Colleen Crowley. He might also be in violation of the substance-abuse policy if he's in it. He admitted to drinking during the day on Oct. 12, and ESPN's Cris Carter said recently on ESPN's "Mike and Mike" show that Manziel's been drinking for awhile.

Manziel said Wednesday he doesn't expect to be disciplined by the NFL, and once again defended his right to live his life the way he wants to. That's true, he can. But it's probably not the kind of lifestyle the Browns want for their franchise quarterback, especially if he's in relapse. Even his high school coach, Julius Scott, who lived with Manziel post-rehab to help keep him on track, recently told USA Today that Manziel ought to have his "head examined'' if he thought it was OK to have a couple of drinks.

But once again, like we've heard so many times before, Manziel doesn't think he's in the wrong. Never mind that the A&M photos surfaced while he's still under investigation by the NFL and while the coaching staff was mulling whether or not to start him Sunday in Pittsburgh.

"I've changed and adapted my lifestyle incredibly since last year,'' Manziel said Wednesday. "For me, my personal life is my personal life. I think there's going to continue to always be a cloud over my head from everything that's happened in the past. That's not going to go away. I'm sure anytime anybody sees me in any type of situation they're just going to say, 'Oh, he's back to doing the same thing over and over again.'

"I'm smart enough to have learned a lot over my past year and a half of my life, that's for sure."

As for the frat-boy photos?

"I took a lot of pictures with a lot of people and I think I made a lot of people happy,'' he said.

The photos, however, didn't make the Browns happy. They've stood by Manziel and defended him all season as an A-plus employee in their building. Serving as an honorary captain for the Aggies game was fine, but the cameo appearance on the party circuit couldn't have been what the Browns had in mind for Manziel on his mini-bye weekend.

He could've followed the lead of Brian Hoyer last year and returned to Cleveland early to watch extra film of the Steelers. Those are some photos the Browns could've embraced.

Again, it's not to say Manziel won't be a franchise quarterback by the time the credits roll, and it's not to say he won't get it together off the field. But the Browns don't have time to wait for either of those things to happen.

It's time to draft one of the best quarterbacks in the top five and begin the sequel to this movie.
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Marshall said:
This guy wouldn't have played Roger Staubach or Fran Tarkington because of their style.
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This guy, as in me?

That's not at all what I said. In the preseason, or in practice, I want them to show me they know how to run my offense & make good decisions from the pocket. During a real live game, I want them to make good decisions balancing risk vs rewards. If I know they know the offense & how to run it, then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt when they improvise.

Unless Staubach/Tarkington were totally worthless from the pocket (which, going by what I said in the previous post, their success suggests that they weren't), they'd play. Might not have been my first choice, like Staubach wasn't Landry's. But once he gets on the field, I'm not going to sit him if what he's doing is working.
 
On one hand this annoys me because the Browns are going to draft ahead of us and take one of the QB's off the board. Then I think it over for a moment and realize that whatever QB they pick will no doubt be a complete bust and so what they're really going to do is jump in front of a bullet for us and all the teams that come after.

When you're the Cleveland Browns that's what you do.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
After a 2-day bender, from being named the Browns starter for the rest of the season.........to not even backup...........yes, to 3rd in line. Now THAT's a real reason to celebrate with another bottle of champagne now!
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On some level I just can't help but smile every time I see him do something stupid like this. He's an even bigger idiot than Vince Young was. Far bigger.
 
The coaching staff was against him at first but they've given him every opportunity this year to take the job and run with it and he just doesn't get it. He's more interested in having a good time off the field than producing on it.
 
OK, part of me says he's a bonehead, but if you have a week off from work and someone takes a picture of you drinking some champagne, you get demoted? Fired? Did it in any way affect his performance at work? Did he do anything illegal?
What if this was you and your boss knew you were in AA. Some coworker shows him a pic of you drinking over Thanksgiving weekend and you get demoted or fired. Would you put up with that?
 
I don't want to question whether Johnny's had a drink here or whenever, that's up to him and his sense of how touch and go his bouts with drinking are. But I've gotta question his decision making at-large, certainly if he's the invested QB of my football team. How did he think it was ok to be recorded rockin' a big bottle of booze at a party?

It's not illegal and it's not necessarily affecting his performance at work, but for goodness sake with all the drama surrounding so much of your goings on man have some discretion. You're tiptoeing on the edge of actually getting to live a dream or not. Party like a goddamn adult for a change and earn some good will.

Somebody needs to hang some Tom Brady and Derek Jeter posters on this kids wall while he plays third string thinking about what all of this means to him.
 
Beer and Metal said:
OK, part of me says he's a bonehead, but if you have a week off from work and someone takes a picture of you drinking some champagne, you get demoted? Fired? Did it in any way affect his performance at work? Did he do anything illegal?
What if this was you and your boss knew you were in AA. Some coworker shows him a pic of you drinking over Thanksgiving weekend and you get demoted or fired. Would you put up with that?
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CONTEXT
 
They must not think he's all that good to demote him over that little clip. Or they've just reached their limit. If that's the case, just cut him and be done.

I mean, it's not the best look. But the Browns and everyone else knew he was a party boy before the drafted him.

We didn't even have hired investigators digging into his life and we all knew Johnny liked to party.

Maybe they told him if they see his face in the news for anything other than charity work or pulling a kitten out of someone's tree he was done.
 
Being serious here I have two observations. First is the obvious one, the Browns want to be rid of him. That's clear to me and I don't have any doubt that he's going to be somewhere else (possibly not in the NFL) next season. They'll move him for a bag of sand or a broken coffee mug. Maybe a really low pick in the draft to someone or cut him outright. It's over and the next six games of sitting on the sideline with his thumb up his butt are just a formality (One that Todd Bowles and the Jets were smart enough to just ignore completely with Quinton Coples just a few days ago). He's done in Cleveland and maybe in pro football.

The second observation is that Manziel should have never gone to AA or admitted to anyone that he had a drinking problem. Does he actually have a drinking problem or is it more like a maturity problem? I don't think we're in the know enough to say but in the league (Goodell's league) today when you're perceived as a hell raiser you pay your f'ckin penance and you go to rehab like a good boy when you're told. Guys like Kenny Stabler wouldn't have lasted more than a season or two in todays NFL.

It's one thing to party too much and be contrite and try to stay out of the headlines but fail. It's another to fall off the wagon when you've been to rehab and admitted that you're an alcoholic who has a problem.

Note: If Johnny Manziel actually feels like he is an alcoholic then I'm wrong and he should certainly have entered into rehab. I'm just saying if he did this instead to make the Browns happy and get his image right and not because he actually thought he needed help then he made a mistake. Maybe it was the mistake of not taking his rehab seriously (if he is an alcoholic) and maybe it was a different kind of mistake. His behavior since getting out of rehab hasn't really shown me that he thinks he has a problem.

Should have spent the money on a couple of big ass handlers who run around keeping cameras pointed at him in a permanent state of "broken". Would have been money better spent IMO.
 
I'm hearing a lot of chatter from folks saying things like "when I was 22 blah blah blah".

But, NONE of these people had a chance to be a starting QB in the NFL when they were 22, so their logic fails.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
They must not think he's all that good to demote him over that little clip. Or they've just reached their limit. If that's the case, just cut him and be done.

I mean, it's not the best look. But the Browns and everyone else knew he was a party boy before the drafted him.

We didn't even have hired investigators digging into his life and we all knew Johnny liked to party.

Maybe they told him if they see his face in the news for anything other than charity work or pulling a kitten out of someone's tree he was done.
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No doubt.

If he was any good, this wouldn't even be news.
 
Seems like Johnny is suffering from affluenza and truly thought it would carry over into the NFL. Jerry will probably take a chance on him on the cheap & and if David Wells can't tone him down, his career in the NFL will probably be shot.
 
Byrds Man said:
He'll probably end up in New England. Even Tebow got looked at there.
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He'll probably be converted into one of those little WR's in New England, turn around and catch like 90 balls a season, get a ring (or two), and make it to the Pro Bowl a few times.
 
This article signals that fans are not privy to the entire extent of circumstances that went into the decision in taking this action against JFF. As an example, it appears that "Manziel also may have not been honest with Pettine about the events of the weekend. In addition to partying at clubs in Austin on Friday and Saturday night, a source told cleveland.com Wednesday that Manziel partied deep into the night at XO Nightlife in Columbus, Ohio on Saturday night after attending the Ohio State-Michigan State game."

Browns' Joe Thomas on Johnny Manziel's demotion: 'It's probably more than what you see on the surface'

By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com
November 26, 2015 at 9:23 AM

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns left tackle Joe Thomas and receiver Brian Hartline both backed coach Mike Pettine's decision to demote Johnny Manziel and suggested that the decision was based on more than just the 30-second partying video that surfaced on Monday.

"I'll let coach (Mike) Pettine dig into the justification, but I think it's probably more than what you see on the surface from a TMZ report or whatever report,'' said Thomas. "Like I said, we support coach's decision, and I'll let him kind of dig into the details of why he made the decision that he made.''

Hartline, responding specifically to a question about fans thinking that Pettine overreacted, backed up Thomas' assertion that the coach's decision to demote Manziel from starting quarterback to third-string was more about a pattern of behavior than an isolated incident.

"That's the thing (fans) don't understand,'' said Hartline. "You're talking about stuff that's in the locker room that you don't know all the facts to and you are making a lot of assumptions. That's kind of where we're standing right now, right? How we handle our business and how we go about things is on us and we stand behind the coach and the decisions. I think you guys heard Joe, Joe did a pretty good job. Kind of explained everything."

Asked to elaborate, Hartline said, "I'm just saying that it's an in-house thing that kind of spills outside because Johnny is Johnny. The people in the locker and the people upstairs know the whole story and how they feel about the whole situation.

"Regardless, moving forward, Johnny had a great practice today, he's not going to let it slow him down. Sometimes you gotta take one step backwards to go four or five steps forward and that can be the case."

During his press conference on Wednesday, Pettine referred several times to Manziel violating the team's trust.

"I can't emphasize enough the importance of the trust and the accountability piece,'' said Pettine. "This is where we had an obvious shortcoming.''

Pettine declined to say exactly how Manziel lost his trust, but he shipped Manziel off for the bye weekend with a zero-tolerance policy for his off-the-field behavior.

"I think that was made reasonably clear to him,'' Pettine said.

Manziel also may have not been honest with Pettine about the events of the weekend. In addition to partying at clubs in Austin on Friday and Saturday night, a source told cleveland.com Wednesday that Manziel partied deep into the night at XO Nightlife in Columbus, Ohio on Saturday night after attending the Ohio State-Michigan State game.

"I won't get into the details of our meetings before the bye other than what is out there, and I won't get into the details much of our meeting yesterday,'' said Pettine. "As I said yesterday, everyone in this organization wants what is best for Johnny. He has shown tremendous improvement, but he has to make better decisions.

"We are going to continue to support him, help him and coach him in every way possible to get him where he needs to be. This is a decision that I know, for him in particular, stings in the short term but feel it is an absolutely necessary to maximize his chance for future success."

Pettine acknowledged that he's watching closely to see how Manziel responds to his demotion.

"We have talked about it often with him is exactly what you just said – words versus actions,'' he said. This is a heavy dose of adversity. We will see how he handles it."
Pettine wouldn't say if the Browns will give Manziel an ultimatum to go back to rehab. He spent 10 weeks in an addiction treatment center in the offseason, but recently admitted to drinking and has been photographed with bottles of alcohol in his hand.

"Certainly a lot of things will get discussed, but I won't go into the details,'' said Pettine. "It is very private."

Thomas said the players are on board with Pettine's move.

"Just in talking to guys, I think everyone supports Coach's decision,'' he said. "When the decision was made in the first place to go with Johnny, I think everybody still felt really confident in Josh. It wasn't like Josh lost his job. We think he's been doing a great job all season. It was more a matter of trying to get Johnny some work, more time to improve himself, and prove what kind of quarterback he can be, and I think he slipped up a little bit.

He said he wasn't irked by Manziel putting partying ahead of the good of the team.

"There's plenty of guys that don't always live up to what they're supposed to be doing,'' he said. "It's not like we're ready to shut the door on Johnny. It's a step back for him. Hopefully it'll be a good learning experience and he'll come back better than ever from it.''

Thomas appreciated the fact that Pettine held Manziel accountable for his actions after he broke his promise not to do "anything to be an embarrassment to the organization'' over the bye weekend.

"It's important in every walk of life to be a man of your word and do the things you say you're going to do and be held accountable,'' said Thomas. "That's one of the things that I really respect about coach Pettine. He doesn't run from challenges. He faces them head on and he does what he thinks is right in all circumstances even if maybe it doesn't look good off the bat.''
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Feel bad for the coaches and the players. This is stuff that a college coach should be dealing with. But the Browns asked for this and now they're getting it.
 
This is slightly deviating from this thread but on Reddit a user posted why the Browns have failed so much since coming back to the NFL...thought it would be good to share:

To understand where the Browns were standing when the 2004 draft starts, you have to understand how the Browns were from 1999-2004, what brought them to this point. Firstly the Browns had been fucked right from the get-go; many believe that the Browns were made an example of coming back into the league to quell the "expansion" insanity after the Panthers and Jaguars had almost immediate success off their opening seasons. They had less time to get things together and had their ownership led by Al Lerner, who, mind you, HELPED THE BROWNS LEAVE TOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE. They spent a high draft pick on Tim Couch, but forgot that, you know, you have to kind of hit on more than just a QB; you need to protect him, give him weapons, and build up the defense, and through consistently poor drafting, the Browns had sunk Couch even before they made the playoffs in 2002.
But it was what happened in 2003 that killed everything; Kelly Holcomb had stepped in during the Browns' playoff game with Pittsburgh in the seasons prior, so the Butch Davis era opted to start a QB competition between him and Couch. Please, imagine if in 2013 while Aaron Rodgers was hurt, if Matt Flynn had one solid game, and when Rodgers was healed and good to go, the Packers turned around and told Aaron ******* Rodgers "NOPE, YOU GOTTA EARN YOUR SPOT BACK." That was this. Couch went mental. Holcomb sucked. The team sucked. Butch Davis was on the outs even as 2004 began, but the Browns were now becoming insanely desperate to find some stability at QB, having given up entirely on Tim Couch by this point.
So what did they do? The first event of many which set off the chain which leads us all the way to 2015; They sign Jeff Garcia.
At first, you may be saying: "Hey, /u/JohnnyFire, this isn't that dumb". And on the surface, fine. Garcia was a year removed from two 49ers runs to the playoffs, and really was only released from San Francisco because the team was going through massive turnover. This was smart, and the right move.
Except nope. And you know why:
  1. Garcia was already banged up. He'd only played 13 games the season prior and was damaged goods as SF needed to just move the **** on more than anything.
  2. Garcia in 2004 was already on the wrong side of 30 year's old. The Browns had no back-up plan at QB coming out of this besides (guess who) a McCown who they would take in the late rounds of the 2004 draft.
  3. Taking Garcia ahead of the 2004 Draft meant that the Browns weren't even going to be SNIFFING a QB in the first round, and we know the name who was on the board ahead of their pick at 4 (committing the cardinal sin of taking a TE in the top 5): Ben ******* Roethlisberger, who would go to the rival Steelers and kill them for the next decade.
And this, of course, sets everything into terrifying motion, because after Butch Davis and the front office are ousted, the chances for any long-term stability slowly fade away. Finding a QB becomes an obsession which cannot be solved, no matter what we try to do:
  • Jeff Garcia predictably gets hurt and astoundingly achieves a passer rating of 0.
  • Kelly Holcomb (Yeah, BUTCH DAVIS STUCK WITH HOLCOMB THROUGH THIS ****) was never more than a marginal talent.
  • Luke McCown is in no way ready for the field, and seeing as he's, you know, a career backup for life, that's all he amounts to.
  • Trent Dilfer is signed in desperation to undo the Jeff Garcia mistake, the goal being to build up local boy Charlie Frye; he fails to do either of those things.
  • Charlie Frye is rushed to the field, absolutely plays like trash for two seasons and is actually traded away after ONE GAME in 2007.
  • Derek Anderson, who was at this point a safety valve, is rewarded with a 2007 Pro Bowl season with a QB competition with his eventual replacement, resulting in both QB's shitting the bed.
  • Brady Quinn is traded up for as the Browns proceed to forget that you NEVER mortgage an entire year's worth of draft picks to try and make something happen, and he fails with no hope to build around after the Browns have no picks in the 2008 Draft's FIRST. THREE. ROUNDS.
  • Ken Dorsey...I mean, the less we say about him, the better at this point.
  • Bruce "The Juice" Gradkowski comes in for exactly one ****-stain of a game and then goes back to backing up the real stars. We were this desperate in 2008 due to sucking and injuries.
  • Jake Delhomme follows the tradition of big-name signing bridge guys, but he's damaged goods, can't stay healthy, and results in our project QB hitting the field too early.
  • Colt McCoy sees the field WAY too early in his development, and a lack of weapons, O-Line, and any help AT ALL gets sunk behind a coaching staff that doesn't ******* want him.
  • Seneca Wallace...it's Seneca ******* Wallace.
  • Brandon Weeden represents the pinnacle of **** here; Weeden was literally Holmgren/Heckert's desperate attempt to push their 5-year plan that they'd already lost the con on by BETTING THE BARN THAT THE ATLANTA FALCONS WOULD MISS THE ******* PLAYOFFS SO THEY COULD MOVE UP AND GET ANDREW LUCK, WHICH IN NO WAY WAS GONNA HAPPEN, JESUS ******* CHRIST. Weeden was already 28 when he was ******* DRAFTED. He SUCKED. CaptialIZATION OF RAGE.
  • Thad Lewis was literally on the team in case Brandon Weeden died of old age.
  • Brian Hoyer was a desperation move from Lombardi (yes, WE HAD MIKE "********' LOMBARDI IN OUR FRONT ******* OFFICE, JESUS) to get some excitement in the team; but he was interested in being the guy, not being fodder for Weeden, Manziel, or anyone else, and the con was lost as he regressed and fell to the media machinations.
  • Jason Campbell just goddamned deserved better, man. I genuinely feel bad for the guy. Floated between awful teams for years with no hope.
  • Johnny Manziel is a whole new level of failure. When a $1,000,000 study says you should draft Teddy Bridgewater, you probably should draft him; instead, probably at the whim of the new owner, we take Manziel, and it's working out, oh, just magically.
  • Connor Shaw was a UDFA who had no reason to see the field but Manziel and Hoyer literally slaughtered themselves.
  • Josh McCown was an answer from the FO to find a bridge to Manziel; instead, he played better than expected, forcing Pettine's hand, but is still a McCown brother and has no ******* hope to be much at 34 years old.
And here we are. Those 19 failures are the catalyst to front office and coaching staff turnover, because not only can't we draft, we can't develop, we can't sign, we can't build around any QB we get, we have tried time and time to fit square pegs into round holes (Manziel right now, for example), and we just do stupid **** in the meantime because between Randy Lerner not giving a **** at all and letting morons run the organization (between Savage and Holmgren's stupid draft-day betting, they set this franchise back a decade) and Haslam giving too much of a **** (we're headed to our 4th coach/FO in FIVE SEASONS under Haslam's supervision ffs), we are in the ****.
The worst part? Finding a good QB was not that hard. Forget the unreasonable picks like trading up for Andrew Luck, or **** like that; in 11 draft opportunities we have passed on:
2004: Ben Roethlisberger (1.4)
2005: Aaron Rodgers (1.3), Kyle Orton (4.106), Derek Anderson (6.203), Matt Cassel (7.217)
2007: Brady Quinn (Staying in the second), Kevin Kolb (2.36)
2008: Joe Flacco (Would've been in range with 1.22 before 2007 trade), Chad Henne (Would've been in range with 2.56 before 2007 trade)
2009: Mark Sanchez (1.5 prior to trade down), Josh Freeman (1.17 prior to trade down)
2011: Andy Dalton (1.21), Tyrod Taylor (6.170 prior to trade up)
2012: Ryan Tannehill (1.4), Brock Osweiler (2.37), Russell Wilson (3.67 prior to trade down), Nick Foles (3.87), Kirk Cousins (4.100)
2014: Teddy Bridgewater (1.22), Derek Carr (2.35)
We've passed on 4 Super Bowl winning QB's, 5 Pro Bowlers, and 11 starters. In 11 drafts. That's just flat out awful. And the atmosphere we as fans, media, and a team have created in the common joke, and it's 100% true:
If by some miracle in 2004, the Browns passed on Davis and got Tom Coughlin, and drafted Eli Manning, both would be out of the league by 2007. He'd have no targets, Coughlin would catch flack and be forced to do ridiculous **** by his FO, the fans would get toxic, the media would turn on them after their first consecutive losses, and by the end of 2006, Manning would be released and Coughlin fired. The Browns would feel super confident they'd get in right this time in 2007 however, with the first overall pick; that Jamarcus Russell guy looked really good.
Toxic culture breeds toxic culture. Someone needs to come into this franchise and just fix it ground ******* up. "Play like a Brown" needs to be something more than Marketing Buzzword Bullshit.
 
Manziel, good or bad, whatever you feel, this is evidence that the Browns let outside voices control too much of their organization.
 
Texan4Ever said:
Forget the unreasonable picks like trading up for Andrew Luck, or **** like that; in 11 draft opportunities we have passed on:
2004: Ben Roethlisberger (1.4)
2005: Aaron Rodgers (1.3), Kyle Orton (4.106), Derek Anderson (6.203), Matt Cassel (7.217)
2007: Brady Quinn (Staying in the second), Kevin Kolb (2.36)
2008: Joe Flacco (Would've been in range with 1.22 before 2007 trade), Chad Henne (Would've been in range with 2.56 before 2007 trade)
2009: Mark Sanchez (1.5 prior to trade down), Josh Freeman (1.17 prior to trade down)
2011: Andy Dalton (1.21), Tyrod Taylor (6.170 prior to trade up)
2012: Ryan Tannehill (1.4), Brock Osweiler (2.37), Russell Wilson (3.67 prior to trade down), Nick Foles (3.87), Kirk Cousins (4.100)
2014: Teddy Bridgewater (1.22), Derek Carr (2.35)
We've passed on 4 Super Bowl winning QB's, 5 Pro Bowlers, and 11 starters. In 11 drafts. That's just flat out awful.
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This is my fear with the Texans. They've already passed on Osweiler, Wilson, Foles, Cousins, Bridgewater, Carr, and Garropolo in the last 4 drafts. And they really didn't have to do any selling of the farm to get any of them and actually could have traded back and gotten extra picks for some.
 
Speedy said:
This is my fear with the Texans. They've already passed on Osweiler, Wilson, Foles, Cousins, Bridgewater, Carr, and Garropolo in the last 4 drafts. And they really didn't have to do any selling of the farm to get any of them and actually could have traded back and gotten extra picks for some.
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Out of that list of 19 the Texans employed 5 of those guys. Garcia, Delhomme, Hoyer, Lewis, Weeden. So we share 25% of Cleveland's factory of sadness.
 
Speedy said:
This is my fear with the Texans. They've already passed on Osweiler, Wilson, Foles, Cousins, Bridgewater, Carr, and Garropolo in the last 4 drafts. And they really didn't have to do any selling of the farm to get any of them and actually could have traded back and gotten extra picks for some.
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TEXANRED said:
Out of that list of 19 the Texans employed 5 of those guys. Garcia, Delhomme, Hoyer, Lewis, Weeden. So we share 25% of Cleveland's factory of sadness.
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I can't tell if its a lack of player development (I have doubts this is the case) or just poor scouting and player analysis. How does someone like Matt Schaub regress so much in one season? If he was truly finished why did we not pick a developmental guy to groom "just in case"? Why can't we look into a guy like Carson Palmer and see if he has some juice left? Would he also regress with the Texans?

Without a doubt we need to gut and revamp our player analysis, scouting teams, GM, etc and see if that changes anything. I still have some faith left in O'Brien if he sticks it out but definite changes needed from a GM standpoint.
 
Texan4Ever said:
This is slightly deviating from this thread but on Reddit a user posted why the Browns have failed so much since coming back to the NFL...thought it would be good to share:

To understand where the Browns were standing when the 2004 draft starts, you have to understand how the Browns were from 1999-2004, what brought them to this point. Firstly the Browns had been fucked right from the get-go; many believe that the Browns were made an example of coming back into the league to quell the "expansion" insanity after the Panthers and Jaguars had almost immediate success off their opening seasons. They had less time to get things together and had their ownership led by Al Lerner, who, mind you, HELPED THE BROWNS LEAVE TOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE. They spent a high draft pick on Tim Couch, but forgot that, you know, you have to kind of hit on more than just a QB; you need to protect him, give him weapons, and build up the defense, and through consistently poor drafting, the Browns had sunk Couch even before they made the playoffs in 2002.
But it was what happened in 2003 that killed everything; Kelly Holcomb had stepped in during the Browns' playoff game with Pittsburgh in the seasons prior, so the Butch Davis era opted to start a QB competition between him and Couch. Please, imagine if in 2013 while Aaron Rodgers was hurt, if Matt Flynn had one solid game, and when Rodgers was healed and good to go, the Packers turned around and told Aaron ******* Rodgers "NOPE, YOU GOTTA EARN YOUR SPOT BACK." That was this. Couch went mental. Holcomb sucked. The team sucked. Butch Davis was on the outs even as 2004 began, but the Browns were now becoming insanely desperate to find some stability at QB, having given up entirely on Tim Couch by this point.
So what did they do? The first event of many which set off the chain which leads us all the way to 2015; They sign Jeff Garcia.
At first, you may be saying: "Hey, /u/JohnnyFire, this isn't that dumb". And on the surface, fine. Garcia was a year removed from two 49ers runs to the playoffs, and really was only released from San Francisco because the team was going through massive turnover. This was smart, and the right move.
Except nope. And you know why:
  1. Garcia was already banged up. He'd only played 13 games the season prior and was damaged goods as SF needed to just move the **** on more than anything.
  2. Garcia in 2004 was already on the wrong side of 30 year's old. The Browns had no back-up plan at QB coming out of this besides (guess who) a McCown who they would take in the late rounds of the 2004 draft.
  3. Taking Garcia ahead of the 2004 Draft meant that the Browns weren't even going to be SNIFFING a QB in the first round, and we know the name who was on the board ahead of their pick at 4 (committing the cardinal sin of taking a TE in the top 5): Ben ******* Roethlisberger, who would go to the rival Steelers and kill them for the next decade.
And this, of course, sets everything into terrifying motion, because after Butch Davis and the front office are ousted, the chances for any long-term stability slowly fade away. Finding a QB becomes an obsession which cannot be solved, no matter what we try to do:
  • Jeff Garcia predictably gets hurt and astoundingly achieves a passer rating of 0.
  • Kelly Holcomb (Yeah, BUTCH DAVIS STUCK WITH HOLCOMB THROUGH THIS ****) was never more than a marginal talent.
  • Luke McCown is in no way ready for the field, and seeing as he's, you know, a career backup for life, that's all he amounts to.
  • Trent Dilfer is signed in desperation to undo the Jeff Garcia mistake, the goal being to build up local boy Charlie Frye; he fails to do either of those things.
  • Charlie Frye is rushed to the field, absolutely plays like trash for two seasons and is actually traded away after ONE GAME in 2007.
  • Derek Anderson, who was at this point a safety valve, is rewarded with a 2007 Pro Bowl season with a QB competition with his eventual replacement, resulting in both QB's shitting the bed.
  • Brady Quinn is traded up for as the Browns proceed to forget that you NEVER mortgage an entire year's worth of draft picks to try and make something happen, and he fails with no hope to build around after the Browns have no picks in the 2008 Draft's FIRST. THREE. ROUNDS.
  • Ken Dorsey...I mean, the less we say about him, the better at this point.
  • Bruce "The Juice" Gradkowski comes in for exactly one ****-stain of a game and then goes back to backing up the real stars. We were this desperate in 2008 due to sucking and injuries.
  • Jake Delhomme follows the tradition of big-name signing bridge guys, but he's damaged goods, can't stay healthy, and results in our project QB hitting the field too early.
  • Colt McCoy sees the field WAY too early in his development, and a lack of weapons, O-Line, and any help AT ALL gets sunk behind a coaching staff that doesn't ******* want him.
  • Seneca Wallace...it's Seneca ******* Wallace.
  • Brandon Weeden represents the pinnacle of **** here; Weeden was literally Holmgren/Heckert's desperate attempt to push their 5-year plan that they'd already lost the con on by BETTING THE BARN THAT THE ATLANTA FALCONS WOULD MISS THE ******* PLAYOFFS SO THEY COULD MOVE UP AND GET ANDREW LUCK, WHICH IN NO WAY WAS GONNA HAPPEN, JESUS ******* CHRIST. Weeden was already 28 when he was ******* DRAFTED. He SUCKED. CaptialIZATION OF RAGE.
  • Thad Lewis was literally on the team in case Brandon Weeden died of old age.
  • Brian Hoyer was a desperation move from Lombardi (yes, WE HAD MIKE "********' LOMBARDI IN OUR FRONT ******* OFFICE, JESUS) to get some excitement in the team; but he was interested in being the guy, not being fodder for Weeden, Manziel, or anyone else, and the con was lost as he regressed and fell to the media machinations.
  • Jason Campbell just goddamned deserved better, man. I genuinely feel bad for the guy. Floated between awful teams for years with no hope.
  • Johnny Manziel is a whole new level of failure. When a $1,000,000 study says you should draft Teddy Bridgewater, you probably should draft him; instead, probably at the whim of the new owner, we take Manziel, and it's working out, oh, just magically.
  • Connor Shaw was a UDFA who had no reason to see the field but Manziel and Hoyer literally slaughtered themselves.
  • Josh McCown was an answer from the FO to find a bridge to Manziel; instead, he played better than expected, forcing Pettine's hand, but is still a McCown brother and has no ******* hope to be much at 34 years old.
And here we are. Those 19 failures are the catalyst to front office and coaching staff turnover, because not only can't we draft, we can't develop, we can't sign, we can't build around any QB we get, we have tried time and time to fit square pegs into round holes (Manziel right now, for example), and we just do stupid **** in the meantime because between Randy Lerner not giving a **** at all and letting morons run the organization (between Savage and Holmgren's stupid draft-day betting, they set this franchise back a decade) and Haslam giving too much of a **** (we're headed to our 4th coach/FO in FIVE SEASONS under Haslam's supervision ffs), we are in the ****.
The worst part? Finding a good QB was not that hard. Forget the unreasonable picks like trading up for Andrew Luck, or **** like that; in 11 draft opportunities we have passed on:
2004: Ben Roethlisberger (1.4)
2005: Aaron Rodgers (1.3), Kyle Orton (4.106), Derek Anderson (6.203), Matt Cassel (7.217)
2007: Brady Quinn (Staying in the second), Kevin Kolb (2.36)
2008: Joe Flacco (Would've been in range with 1.22 before 2007 trade), Chad Henne (Would've been in range with 2.56 before 2007 trade)
2009: Mark Sanchez (1.5 prior to trade down), Josh Freeman (1.17 prior to trade down)
2011: Andy Dalton (1.21), Tyrod Taylor (6.170 prior to trade up)
2012: Ryan Tannehill (1.4), Brock Osweiler (2.37), Russell Wilson (3.67 prior to trade down), Nick Foles (3.87), Kirk Cousins (4.100)
2014: Teddy Bridgewater (1.22), Derek Carr (2.35)
We've passed on 4 Super Bowl winning QB's, 5 Pro Bowlers, and 11 starters. In 11 drafts. That's just flat out awful. And the atmosphere we as fans, media, and a team have created in the common joke, and it's 100% true:
If by some miracle in 2004, the Browns passed on Davis and got Tom Coughlin, and drafted Eli Manning, both would be out of the league by 2007. He'd have no targets, Coughlin would catch flack and be forced to do ridiculous **** by his FO, the fans would get toxic, the media would turn on them after their first consecutive losses, and by the end of 2006, Manning would be released and Coughlin fired. The Browns would feel super confident they'd get in right this time in 2007 however, with the first overall pick; that Jamarcus Russell guy looked really good.
Toxic culture breeds toxic culture. Someone needs to come into this franchise and just fix it ground ******* up. "Play like a Brown" needs to be something more than Marketing Buzzword Bullshit.
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And yet the crybaby Browns fans were awarded an expansion team within weeks of them leaving town and we had to deal with the whole lame duck Oilers situation then the battle with LA.

Cleveland deserves Manziel.
 
What,team,u think could take him next year or 2, in the bargain bin

Maybe Dallas they,could use a,qb,
 
TEXANRED said:
Out of that list of 19 the Texans employed 5 of those guys. Garcia, Delhomme, Hoyer, Lewis, Weeden. So we share 25% of Cleveland's factory of sadness.
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I disagree in that only one of those guys made it to the Texans due to something other than injuries. If we don't lose Schaub and Leinart then Garcia and Delhomme are never Texans. Thad Lewis only comes here because of the Mallett injury last year if I remember correctly and Weeden only came here because Yates needed a backup.

Any old port in a storm.
 
Hookem Horns said:
Yeah, but it's not like they will take anyone worth taking. They took Manziel over Bridgewater and Carr.
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We also passed on trading up for Bridgewater, and just walked right past Carr.

Stupid organizations are just what they are. The Texans have for the majority of their existence made ignorant decisions.
 
Hervoyel said:
I disagree in that only one of those guys made it to the Texans due to something other than injuries. If we don't lose Schaub and Leinart then Garcia and Delhomme are never Texans. Thad Lewis only comes here because of the Mallett injury last year if I remember correctly and Weeden only came here because Yates needed a backup.

Any old port in a storm.
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Agreed - it's also worth noting that Garcia, Lewis and Weeden (to this point) never took so much as a single snap for the Texans, and Delhomme only played in the final game of the season because the Texans chose to rest Yates after a series or two. Hoyer is the only one of the five who's played in a game the Texans considered meaningful.
 
I think if you look into a crystal ball that shows the NFL future of Johnny Manziel, it looks a lot like the present of Tim Tebow and Vince Young.

I actually think the parallel to Tebow (of all people) is more apt. Both Manziel and Tebow are good enough to be on NFL rosters, but both are blocked by two obstacles that are out of their control. First and most problematic: taking on Manziel immediately ignites a fan-fueled quarterback controversy (just like it does with Tebow). Manziel is not good enough to be a starting NFL quarterback right now, and because of inherent flaws he likely never will be. Yet, even as recently as one month ago, there were renewed calls for Manziel to get the starting job in Cleveland. Why? Because, during a 31-10 loss at Cincinnati, he had one good drive.

And, while this second issue looms much larger with Tebow, anyone carrying Manziel as a back-up does so knowing that they have to drastically alter their offense if Manziel is forced into action. There aren’t any starting quarterbacks like him, and Manziel’s greatest strength—improvisational skills—isn’t something you can really build into an offense.

Manziel is a better quarterback than Tebow, and his cult following is not nearly as strong. But of course, there’s one more issue with Manziel.

The actions that got Manziel benched—not only lying to management, but being foolish enough to tell a lie that could so, so easily be debunked—were those of a spoiled child. Maybe that’s a result of growing up an athletic prodigy in an affluent family, or maybe it was reinforced at Texas A&M, where he was a savior for a program desperate for a winner (a 19-year-old Manziel once allegedly got drunk, picked a fight on the street that involved popping his shirt Dennis Reynolds-style, gave police a fake ID when confronted… and faced virtually no consequences). He’ll be 23 next week, and people can change. But has anything he’s done since entering the public consciousness suggest that Manziel can be a leader of men?
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link
 
McCown is down and the crowd is already chanting Johnny's name. Browns put in Austin Davis, an undrafted free agent, out instead. Fans boo Davis' first pass.
 
CretorFrigg said:
McCown is down and the crowd is already chanting Johnny's name. Browns put in Austin Davis, an undrafted free agent, out instead. Fans boo Davis' first pass.
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And then proceeds to lead a game tying drive with 2 minutes left and the Browns fans are now cheering him.

Browns fans are the worst. They deserve this factory of sadness.
 
What is it with Schaub and pick-six's anyway? I don't even understand how this guy can turn into the kind of pick-six factory he has so quickly. There wasn't even anyone behind Dansby last night. It's like he threw it just to get the pick-six out of the way.

This list was put together in 2013 and I just came across it and was thinking that since then Schaub has thrown two more pick-sixes. Based on this list he should be sitting at 14 of them since 2004.
 
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Hervoyel said:
What is it with Schaub and pick-six's anyway? I don't even understand how this guy can turn into the kind of pick-six factory he has so quickly. There wasn't even anyone behind Dansby last night. It's like he threw it just to get the pick-six out of the way.

This list was put together in 2013 and I just came across it and was thinking that since then Schaub has thrown two more pick-sixes. Based on this list he should be sitting at 14 of them since 2004.
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That pick six he threw last night, I put that on coaching. There's no way a guy, a LB, should be able to return an INT over 50 yards for a TD. It's a complete lack of effort for everyone on that offense to allow that to happen. Had he thrown it to the flats, for a 20~30 yard return... yeah, that pick 6 is on the QB. Further than that, it's a team fail.

The Ravens were 3-7 before Schaub took a snap for them & that pick six epitomizes why.
 
thunderkyss said:
That pick six he threw last night, I put that on coaching. There's no way a guy, a LB, should be able to return an INT over 50 yards for a TD. It's a complete lack of effort for everyone on that offense to allow that to happen. Had he thrown it to the flats, for a 20~30 yard return... yeah, that pick 6 is on the QB. Further than that, it's a team fail.

The Ravens were 3-7 before Schaub took a snap for them & that pick six epitomizes why.
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I agree with you but if there's somebody out there throwing a pick-six it always seems to be Schaub. He's got the worst luck when it comes to that on top of the run of lousy throws he made two years ago. It's becoming his signature play.
 
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