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"Texans players say they had illegal contract drills at 2008 mini-camp"

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nero THE zero

nero THE zero

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This scrolled under ESPN's "The Lead" on the ticker this morning. I searched their website and didn't see anything. Anyone know what they're talking about?
 
nero THE zero said:
This scrolled under ESPN's "The Lead" on the ticker this morning. I searched their website and didn't see anything. Anyone know what they're talking about?
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Hmmm. Well during mini-camps its usually the rookies and maybe some of the younger players. They practice in shorts and t shirts (no pads) thus its not to be considered a full contact practice. It's really just a time for the young players to run through some plays, learn new plays, do drills, refresh their memory, etc. An early look so the coaches can kinda see what they have to work with (concerning the rookies) going into more offseason workouts. This may have been the time when they noticed Demeco could make the switch to MLB (ability to learn the plays quickly, be a leader etc.) but I'm not sure.

Maybe during a few drills they wore pads or they were rougher than they were supposed to be? For some reason I think some other team had a problem with this a few years ago and may have even been penalized somehow.
 
Now they're scrolling this:

ESPN's Outside the Lines reports some Texans players say they were instructed to participate in contract drills at 2008 mini-camp, despite such drills violating the collective bargaining agreement

3 players suffered season ending injuries at mini-camp

Full report on Outside the Lines (Sunday, 9 AM ET on ESPN)
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Here's the article

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3885900

When the Houston Texans' coaching staff announced to linemen that they would be running one-on-one blocking drills during minicamp last May, the rumbling started immediately, players say.

The NFL's rules about minicamp are spelled out in the collective bargaining agreement with the NFL Players Association: no contact, no pads.

"There's a reason why these drills are prohibited in the offseason," said offensive guard Dan Stevenson. "Football is dangerous enough as it is."

But several sources told ESPN that even after the team's player representatives complained to head coach Gary Kubiak, the drills continued; and by the end of minicamp, three players had suffered season-ending injuries.

According to four players and a member of the team's front office who spoke on the condition of anonymity, Kubiak and his coaching staff conducted the drills despite the fact that players were not wearing pads. Their only protection, they said, was helmets.

"It was a live blocking drill. There were people getting pancaked. Everyone's going as hard as he can," Stevenson said.

Stevenson suffered a labrum tear in his shoulder that he feels might end his career.

"I was the third offensive lineman who was done for the season, just from that drill," offensive tackle Jordan Black said. "If nobody's going to stand up, it's just going to continue."

Black had surgery to repair a torn labrum, was released by the team in June and has since signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Stevenson also suffered a labrum tear in his right shoulder, and center Chukky Okobi suffered a triceps injury.

"I felt like, for my career, my occupation, my dreams, for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized not for just one season but for my entire football career for something that wasn't supposed to be done -- I was upset," Stevenson said.

Okobi couldn't be reached for comment. Black and Stevenson said that while they accept football's injury risks, they are distressed that their seasons ended in a drill they say should not have happened. Okobi has not signed with a new club.

Stevenson and Black have labor grievances pending against the team, and Stevenson plans to sue the Texans.
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Doesn't sound good.

The article does answer my previous question though. It says there is no specific punishment for teams that disobey the rule.
 
OL Stephenson

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3885900

HOUSTON -- When the Houston Texans' coaching staff announced to linemen that they would be running one-on-one blocking drills during minicamp last May, the rumbling started immediately, players say.

The NFL's rules about minicamp are spelled out in the collective bargaining agreement with the NFL Players Association: no contact, no pads.

"There's a reason why these drills are prohibited in the offseason," said offensive guard Dan Stevenson. "Football is dangerous enough as it is."

But several sources told ESPN that even after the team's player representatives complained to head coach Gary Kubiak, the drills continued; and by the end of minicamp, three players had suffered season-ending injuries.

According to four players and a member of the team's front office who spoke on the condition of anonymity, Kubiak and his coaching staff conducted the drills despite the fact that players were not wearing pads. Their only protection, they said, was helmets.

"It was a live blocking drill. There were people getting pancaked. Everyone's going as hard as he can," Stevenson said.

Stevenson suffered a labrum tear in his shoulder that he feels might end his career.

"I was the third offensive lineman who was done for the season, just from that drill," offensive tackle Jordan Black said. "If nobody's going to stand up, it's just going to continue."

Black had surgery to repair a torn labrum, was released by the team in June and has since signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Stevenson also suffered a labrum tear in his right shoulder, and center Chukky Okobi suffered a triceps injury.

"I felt like, for my career, my occupation, my dreams, for all this to be taken away from me, to be jeopardized not for just one season but for my entire football career for something that wasn't supposed to be done -- I was upset," Stevenson said.

Okobi couldn't be reached for comment. Black and Stevenson said that while they accept football's injury risks, they are distressed that their seasons ended in a drill they say should not have happened. Okobi has not signed with a new club.

Stevenson and Black have labor grievances pending against the team, and Stevenson plans to sue the Texans.

Asked about the players' charges, team counsel Suzie Thomas wrote in an e-mail, "I am unable to comment, other than to say that information set forth & is inaccurate." Kubiak did not return calls to his office at Reliant Stadium.

NFL and NFLPA officials said there is no specific punishment defined for a team that holds prohibited drills during a minicamp, and an NFL spokesman said the league was unaware of the complaint against the Texans until a call from ESPN.

Stevenson's current grievance is a "non-injury" complaint that relates to the minicamp drill. A previous injury grievance was denied by the NFL Management Council. In that rejection, the NFLMC cited numerous procedural problems with Stevenson's complaint.

One portion of the rejection letter, Stevenson said, read, "the Texans deny & that 'players were required to participate in drills which are explicitly prohibited.' "

Once the team denied that the drill had taken place, Stevenson took a video camera into the Texans' meeting room and filmed the team's video of the workout. The video, which was provided to ESPN, shows what appears to be full-speed, full-contact drills.

Black and former Texans lineman Fred Weary also signed notarized affidavits supporting Stevenson's description of what took place during minicamp, from the complaints of the player representatives to Stevenson's shoulder injury.

The players said it is not uncommon for coaches on many teams to schedule such drills during minicamp, but it is unusual for coaches to proceed with the drills when players object.

Tom DePaso, associate general counsel for the NFLPA, said the union often hears complaints about offseason drills that violate the CBA.

"It's this classic thing in the offseason. Coaches really want to get started on the new season; and on the other hand, we need our guys to learn and they need to rest," DePaso said.

DePaso wouldn't specifically address the grievances against the Texans or the three players who received season-ending injuries.

"If that were the case," he said, "that would be extraordinary."
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One of the off-season bits at profootballtalk.com is finding pictures of teams which are in violation of contact rules. They have probably dozens of pictures from various teams. the Texans are not unusual in that regard, and if anything "normal" is this regard.
 
Meh, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. It sounds like sour grapes from 3 players no longer with the team. Even if it were to go against the Texans I wouldn't think the punishment would be too extreme.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Meh, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. It sounds like sour grapes from 3 players no longer with the team. Even if it were to go against the Texans I wouldn't think the punishment would be too extreme.
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Not only 3 players who are no longer Texans, but three players that had very little chance of making the team anyways.

The team will more then likely lose some workout days early in the preseason, and McNair will likely have to fork over some cash to the three guys who got injure.

For what it worth, Justice was wrong. If the trainer and S&C coach were the "best in the NFL" then these guys should not have gotten injured. Especally since two of them suffered the same injury.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Meh, I don't think it's going to be a big deal. It sounds like sour grapes from 3 players no longer with the team. Even if it were to go against the Texans I wouldn't think the punishment would be too extreme.
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Thought about that one too, but in all honesty they're the ones injurey AND off the team, they have nothing to lose. If anyone is to speak up they're the ones, they lost it all and have nothing else to lose to bring this up.

Not saying they're right, just pointing out that if someone were to complain about illegal procedures in the off-season, these would be the guys doing it.
 
Malloy said:
Thought about that one too, but in all honesty they're the ones injurey AND off the team, they have nothing to lose. If anyone is to speak up they're the ones, they lost it all and have nothing else to lose to bring this up.

Not saying they're right, just pointing out that if someone were to complain about illegal procedures in the off-season, these would be the guys doing it.
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It's funny to me that the only one not currently on a team is the one not talking to the media.
 
Would these guys have even made the team? If they get hurt during contact drills in minicamp do you think they would have much of a career playing 16+ games a season at a high level week in and week out? I understand its a rule, but to me it just looks these guys are trying to get some sort of compensation or something.

I think its a sport in other countries I think its called rugby or something like that.

Hell Diles broke his leg running down the field in a non-contact drill because he tripped over himself and had a freak accident.

Typical ESPN blowing things out of proportion like LeBron blocking Yao from the weakside or LeBron buying a pepsi from a vending machine using a $2 bill or LeBron shooting a free-throw.

What a joke... hey Stevenson...

"Man's game b*tch!"
 
Malloy said:
Thought about that one too, but in all honesty they're the ones injurey AND off the team, they have nothing to lose. If anyone is to speak up they're the ones, they lost it all and have nothing else to lose to bring this up.

Not saying they're right, just pointing out that if someone were to complain about illegal procedures in the off-season, these would be the guys doing it.
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Yes, but after reading the article I got the impression that this happens on an annual basis. This year it's the Texans turn. lol

IMO, it's no biggie.
 
Malloy said:
Im not following you here?
2 of the 3 players mentioned in this espn-stuff are off the team right ?
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Nevermind...brainfart of epic proportions.

Black is a Jag. Stevenson is still a Texan, on IR. Chucky Okobi is not on a roster.

I wonder how long Stevenson is a Texan after this?
 
JWarren14 said:
Would these guys have even made the team? If they get hurt during contact drills in minicamp do you think they would have much of a career playing 16+ games a season at a high level week in and week out? I understand its a rule, but to me it just looks these guys are trying to get some sort of compensation or something.

I think its a sport in other countries I think its called rugby or something like that.

Hell Diles broke his leg running down the field in a non-contact drill because he tripped over himself and had a freak accident.

Typical ESPN blowing things out of proportion like LeBron blocking Yao from the weakside or LeBron buying a pepsi from a vending machine using a $2 bill or LeBron shooting a free-throw.

What a joke... hey Stevenson...

"Man's game b*tch!"
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Thats just complete rubbish on so many levels.

Yes they are trying to get compensation because they're careers are ruined, and they damn well should.

That whole 'mans game' talk, do you realize how dumb it sounds? If you lose your job, would you be all manly about it and say 'sure, it's a mans world, I should suck it up'?
 
Seriously dude - you're a player I have never herd of, get injured, and sneak a video camera in the film room? Hope your grievance works out, because you'll never play in the NFL again.

Sorry you got hurt, hope you get what is coming for your injury AND NOTHING MORE, but jackass.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Yes, but after reading the article I got the impression that this happens on an annual basis. This year it's the Texans turn. lol

IMO, it's no biggie.
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I agree, Im sure all teams do it. That does IMO not change the fact that the players injured are entitled to bring it to the NFLPA's attention and seek some sort of compensation.

Perhaps this will bury the accusations by some that this is a soft franchise :)
 
Hoth-Boy said:
Nevermind...brainfart of epic proportions.

Black is a Jag. Stevenson is still a Texan, on IR. Chucky Okobi is not on a roster.

I wonder how long Stevenson is a Texan after this?
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Oh dear, thought I had the brain-fart, thanks for saving my ass there ;)

Stevenson might be one of the first players to go, considering that he brought a camera to training... Im sure that's grounds to kick him out.
 
What a joke. End your career because of a torn labrum? Plenty of people get that injury and come back just fine. Sure 3 people got hurt durnig minicamp, but how many more got injured throughout the year? Tihs is just sensationalist journalism.

I say we ship this guy overseas and leave him there. This football team is a family, and you don't ever go against the family
 
Hoth-Boy said:
Nevermind...brainfart of epic proportions.

Black is a Jag. Stevenson is still a Texan, on IR. Chucky Okobi is not on a roster.

I wonder how long Stevenson is a Texan after this?
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Weary, an ex, agrees with them though. It people gave him any respect for this time here.

Overall though, considering the O-line depth, I don't find this to be "nothing" since that depth was depleted due to these injuries. Sounds stupid to me. They have something to grind but it isn't something I like to see.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
A question for somebody more knowledgeable then me. Would shoulder pads have prevented a town labrum?
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The pads could restrict the range of motion of the arm.

But... I wouldn't expect it to make that much of a difference. Cloak would be able to answer this much better than I can.

But when I hear of a torn labrum, I usually associate it with a sharp tug on the forearm where the force is transferred up the biceps to the attachment on the labrum. The weakest link along that chain usually tears or detaches. Sometimes it's the labrum, sometimes it's the attachment of the biceps to the forearm. If I'm right on that, then the pads wouldn't have made a difference.

Unless Jackson's and Black's problem wasn't with the use of pads but rather the level of contact because they weren't in football shape, yet. And if it's about being in shape, then I'd put that on the S&C staff.
 
gtexan02 said:
I say we ship this guy overseas and leave him there. This football team is a family, and you don't ever go against the family
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Thats mafia logic.

I appreciate that players stick their heads out to protect themselves and future players from ending up in the same situation. Thats supporting your family, not hiding abuse based on a skewed sense of loyalty.
 
Malloy said:
Thats mafia logic.

I appreciate that players stick their heads out to protect themselves and future players from ending up in the same situation. Thats supporting your family, not hiding abuse based on a skewed sense of loyalty.
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IF the Texans were violating the rules that all other NFL teams abided by and IF that was leading to significant increases in injuries and IF these injuries were keeping players from getting a fair shot at a career in the NFL than I totally agree.

We don't need to be doing things that are unnecessarily dangerous to get ahead, because we just end up falling further behind.


BUT from the video, the link, the story, etc, it sounds like this is something EVERY team does, it sounds like this guy knew he didnt have a future in football, and it sounds like he's just trying to mooch as much $$ as possible. The claim was already filed and rejected by the NFLPA, and now he's just going for sensationalism. AND he's using deceit to achieve his goals.

Stevenson's current grievance is a "non-injury" complaint that relates to the minicamp drill. A previous injury grievance was denied by the NFL Management Council. In that rejection, the NFLMC cited numerous procedural problems with Stevenson's complaint.
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I don't like that at all.
 
gtexan02 said:
IF the Texans were violating the rules that all other NFL teams abided by and IF that was leading to significant increases in injuries and IF these injuries were keeping players from getting a fair shot at a career in the NFL than I totally agree.

We don't need to be doing things that are unnecessarily dangerous to get ahead, because we just end up falling further behind.


BUT from the video, the link, the story, etc, it sounds like this is something EVERY team does, it sounds like this guy knew he didnt have a future in football, and it sounds like he's just trying to mooch as much $$ as possible. The claim was already filed and rejected by the NFLPA, and now he's just going for sensationalism. AND he's using deceit to achieve his goals.

I don't like that at all
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I agree, and I think it speaks volume's that the NFL has already rejected his claim.
 
Malloy said:
Thats just complete rubbish on so many levels.

Yes they are trying to get compensation because they're careers are ruined, and they damn well should.

That whole 'mans game' talk, do you realize how dumb it sounds? If you lose your job, would you be all manly about it and say 'sure, it's a mans world, I should suck it up'?
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Football is a man's game correct, or did it lose its physicality, I think it was Polomalu who spoke out about it.

It ruined his NFL career not his career, he should be able to find a good job somewhere if he got his 4-year-degree.

There is no guarantee you will make the team if you make it mini-camp, it's your last chance to show what you got. If I was up for a promotion and I gave it everything I could than that's all I could do. Life isn't fair sometimes, but you know you suck it up take what you have and move on to the next challenge that's what life is about. I lost my soccer career doing things that are just insane during training camp, sprinting with a 45 pound plate in the 100 degree heat when its obvious that the sweat is going to make someone drop the plate and cause serious injury, but hey it is what it is I made the best of my year transferred to a better academic college received my degree and got a good job. Would I have loved to better my game and make it at the next level, hell yeah I would, but it wasn't in the cards. It's part of any sport, you can get injured at any time.

So yes if I lost my job giving 100% while being asked to do something above and beyond what I was supposed to, then yes I would suck it up and move on because somebody else would love to have a person with that type of attitude.

Thanks for your opinion though, I have got mine you've got yours, that's also part of life.

Besides it's not like it hasn't happened before
2) How much contact is allowed?? – The CBA says, “No contact allowed anytime.”

But we all know coaches and teams will push the envelope. Almost all practices are no pads, but there is always jostling as teams try to figure out who is close to mid-season form. The amount of contact can have repercussion as seen last spring as three clubs with taskmaster coaches were penalized for OTA violations (Arizona Cardinals, New York Giants, and Detroit Lions). The Detroit Lions were especially singled out as their taskmaster head coach Rod Marinelli’s approach was not well received by “coddled” players.

The Lions lost two days of OTA’s after a lineman filed a grievance with the NFLPA alleging that the team held contact drills at a mini-camp. No matter what level of contact, coaches like old-school former Redskins head coach Joe Gibbs think players need to buck up. Gibbs said after a spring 2005 investigation into his OTA’s, "There's not competitive stuff (at OTA’s)”
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Assessing the players motives are speculative at best, I wont even go there.

This might be normal procedure within NFL teams, but just because everyone is doing it does not make it less wrong or illegal.

I have not watched the video and honestly I am not sure I will. I am strictly discussing this from a principal standpoint. If our team has broken NFL rules they better own up to it and act accordingly REGARDLESS of what happens to other teams doing the same.

I won't trashtalk ESPN for bringing attention to this either, thats journalism, nor will I discredit the players for bringing what they believe to be unfair procedures to the attention of the media.
 
Heres what bothers me:

There are TONS of instances where players (lots of lineman) file complaints about violation of contact rules, and the team loses OTA workouts. It happened last year with 3 teams.

Why didn't this guy just file a grievance? Because he did and it was rejected.

This is all I need to know
 
Malloy said:
Assessing the players motives are speculative at best, I wont even go there.

This might be normal procedure within NFL teams, but just because everyone is doing it does not make it less wrong or illegal.

I have not watched the video and honestly I am not sure I will. I am strictly discussing this from a principal standpoint. If our team has broken NFL rules they better own up to it and act accordingly REGARDLESS of what happens to other teams doing the same.

I won't trashtalk ESPN for bringing attention to this either, thats journalism, nor will I discredit the players for bringing what they believe to be unfair procedures to the attention of the media.
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My problem is that I feel Stevenson is only bringing this to the attention of the media becuase he didn't get the results he wnated by going through the offical channels established by the CBA.
 
I never have been to any of the practices, my first thought is that you have a bunch of guys going through drills, And esp the ones that are fighting to make the team, get a little competitive or tries to make a first impression on the coaching staff (even without pads) and the competitive fire starts going between players and they start to do a little more... Coaches see this and even though it is no contact, don't condone it or doesn't encourage it..

could I be off here?

silly as this may sound , when I go out and practice softball now, even at 38, I say before practice, that I won't do this or do that, but once I am out in the outfield, I end up going full out, diving for balls if I have to. As a kid playing other sports, even messing around, I went full out.. Dad had taught me that "you practice how you play"

Now I know this is apples and oranges to an NFL player and what they do, I just wonder if some of the guys mindsets are about the same. Non contact drills and once you get someone going against you, one DE is going through the motions and wants to just "show a bit more and get past the OL", the offensive linemen shows a little more competitiveness "shows a little more" to keep the DE in check , so to speak

I may be misunderstanding the whole process that goes on in the non-contact drills, so someone ,please, set me straight if my thinking is wrong
 
Malloy said:
Assessing the players motives are speculative at best, I wont even go there.

This might be normal procedure within NFL teams, but just because everyone is doing it does not make it less wrong or illegal.

I have not watched the video and honestly I am not sure I will. I am strictly discussing this from a principal standpoint. If our team has broken NFL rules they better own up to it and act accordingly REGARDLESS of what happens to other teams doing the same.

I won't trashtalk ESPN for bringing attention to this either, thats journalism, nor will I discredit the players for bringing what they believe to be unfair procedures to the attention of the media.
Click to expand...

You need to watch the video. I'vee seen drills at the Combine get way more physical then the drill shown in the video clip.
 
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