xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I'm just excited/hopeful this means less time with OB.
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- Thread starter CloakNNNdagger
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I'm just excited/hopeful this means less time with OB.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
This^. Although HoustonTexans.com and other sites list Watson at 6'3", his height as measured at the Combine is actually 6' 2.13"....so essentially 6'2".
Another point. "running around, holding the ball and extending the play" served him best in his rookie year. With teams having film and learning his deficiencies and tendencies, although he could still do relatively very well, his previous traits began to show cracks. This year, he will need to be able to learn to drop back, process and release the ball quicker and use the pocket more. Otherwise, defenses will will continue to "learn" and he is likely to take a step back no matter who his coach is.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I meant to post this article with the above post:
From Brees to Brady, Pocket Passers Rule the Playoffs
ANDY BENOIT
January 09, 2018
You hear all the time that pocket passing is king in pro football. But no one ever explains why. With this year’s crop of playoff quarterbacks validating the adage, it’s worth examining the reason.
It starts with the field’s geometry. In the NFL the hashmarks for spotting the ball are 18 ½ feet apart. In college, they’re 40 feet apart. That difference significantly affects how offensive plays are designed, and how defensive coverages are structured.
In college, when the ball is on a hashmark, there is 100 feet of field toward the opposite side. Much of the strategy in the college game is about exploiting that space. In the NFL, with tighter hashmarks, that exaggerated space doesn’t exist. And so the focus is not on using space, but creating it, which comes from how you align and move your players. Remember, those players are also faster and smarter than the ones in college, where the discrepancy between great and average athletes can be gargantuan. In the NFL, which draws roughly the top 1.5 percent of college players, success derives less from pure athletic advantages and more from executing smart designs.
The tighter hashmarks in the NFL mean the ball is always spotted near the middle of the field. Plays are designed with that in mind. With no boundary nearby, both sides of the field are fully available. The most efficient way to exploit both sides is to have your quarterback drop straight back and play from the pocket. Almost every NFL offense is built around this.
The quarterbacks in this year’s postseason operate offenses that make the most of pocket passing. There’s no better illustration than the Saints. They have the consummate dropback passer in Drew Brees, who works through his progressions with the efficiency of a computer.
THE REST OF THE STORY
From Brees to Brady, Pocket Passers Rule the Playoffs
ANDY BENOIT
January 09, 2018
You hear all the time that pocket passing is king in pro football. But no one ever explains why. With this year’s crop of playoff quarterbacks validating the adage, it’s worth examining the reason.
It starts with the field’s geometry. In the NFL the hashmarks for spotting the ball are 18 ½ feet apart. In college, they’re 40 feet apart. That difference significantly affects how offensive plays are designed, and how defensive coverages are structured.
In college, when the ball is on a hashmark, there is 100 feet of field toward the opposite side. Much of the strategy in the college game is about exploiting that space. In the NFL, with tighter hashmarks, that exaggerated space doesn’t exist. And so the focus is not on using space, but creating it, which comes from how you align and move your players. Remember, those players are also faster and smarter than the ones in college, where the discrepancy between great and average athletes can be gargantuan. In the NFL, which draws roughly the top 1.5 percent of college players, success derives less from pure athletic advantages and more from executing smart designs.
The tighter hashmarks in the NFL mean the ball is always spotted near the middle of the field. Plays are designed with that in mind. With no boundary nearby, both sides of the field are fully available. The most efficient way to exploit both sides is to have your quarterback drop straight back and play from the pocket. Almost every NFL offense is built around this.
The quarterbacks in this year’s postseason operate offenses that make the most of pocket passing. There’s no better illustration than the Saints. They have the consummate dropback passer in Drew Brees, who works through his progressions with the efficiency of a computer.
THE REST OF THE STORY
I was referring to Wilson buying time to break down defenses & Russell Wilson's height issues.
As your next post points out Wilson & Watson will have to win more from the pocket for long term success in the NFL.
I do. He posted a career high passer rating last year. And having success with Wilson, I’m sure a lot of the same concepts will translate as they are very similar QB’s. Anyway, like another poster said. I’m just glad Tim Kelly and OB won’t be damaging him too badly for the next staff. It’s still beyond me that there’s so many good coordinator options and OB picked a guy that played DL at a D2 school, coached the worst position group on our team and arguably in the NFL, and has been his yes man his whole career. This should go swimmingly
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
I saw many of Watson's production problems related to play calling (long developing routes), the lack of weapons outside of Hopkins, who was forced to fight double and triple team coverages since the Texans didn't really have any other receiver of high concern......and of course, the elephant in the room, the failure of the OL and lack of TE production.
Let's see how this progresses if the Texans truly upgraded the OL this off-season, Fuller and Coutee can stay on the field, Foreman becomes the featured back, and the TE's are finally utilized b/c they can catch and not commit drive killing penalties.
What is this pocket you speak of? I don’t remember seeing one of those last season, at least not when we were on offense. Seriously though, I hope to see major improvements in the interior of the offensive line. We need to keep guys out of Watson’s face and give him a pocket to step up into.
This was a major issue for our defense last season, the lack of any interior pass rush.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
Coutee’s health and the addition of Warring I think will be huge for DW4 getting rid of the ball quickly.
Both targets that can get open quickly and should profile as the “hot read” when DW4 is pressured.
Both targets that can get open quickly and should profile as the “hot read” when DW4 is pressured.
HaveMercy
Passing Through
Tim Kelly might surprise us, but moving him to the OC spot doesn't have the look and feel of bringing in fresh (for the Texans, anyway) offensive concepts. On the surface, it looks like OB picked an OC who will be a Mini-Me, if you will, to take some of the load.
But maybe, just maybe, Tim Kelly has been studying what's worked so well for teams like Kansas City and a few others. Maybe, just maybe, he'll be a bit of an instrument for some change and new (for the Texans, anyway) offensive concepts. I can squint my eyes and imagine Tim Kelly and Carl Smith having good input into the offensive game plans week to week. The playbook for this year may already be set in stone, but then again, maybe not.
There's obviously a lot of need to modify the Texans' offensive concepts. It's been said that the NFL is a copycat league. Let's hope OB realizes that DWatson is more like Patrick Mahomes than Tom Brady, then adapts his thinking accordingly.
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Watson seemed to not recognize or look for the "hot read"...........and they were available. It appeared that for whatever reason, he'd preference looking for the "bigger play" in lieu of the quick short options.
HaveMercy
Passing Through
Let's hope Carl Smith can fix some of those tendencies.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Each and every Texans seasons seems to have been built on "if's". I just got to hope that the "if's" come through this season.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Is that where your name comes from
That's all every Texans fan could be......optimistic......thus becoming an OptimisticTexan. Have the Texans did anything to date that would make you a "ConfidentTexan" fan.
Tell me OL will be avg and Watson/Hopkins/WFV/Coutee/Miller will be healthy and I will tell you if the Texans have a top 10 offense.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
This is exactly how i feel.
I think the moves they made are all great in the best case scenario, just worry that their history of below average line play and poor health at skill positions, its too much to hope for.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Brought NFL team back to Houston
Usually it involves dumping something once coveted. Confident Texan is still waiting on coaching but believe in Deshaun Watson and JJ Watt.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
HaveMercy
Passing Through
I really wish I could tell you all of that, SteelB. Unfortunately, I can't. We'll have to watch the season unfold week by week. But you know me, I'm going to find something to enjoy each game.
HaveMercy
Passing Through
Fingers crossed and one eye squeezed shut: Maybe so, Maybe no.
I'm surprised you didn't put improved coaching in your list. That may be the biggest question mark.
Great thread on watson with multiple video clips (I didn't include the video clips)
Tweet from @Brickwallblitz: I've seen a few people on here suggest Deshaun Watson is average, needs help to win, or wasn't as good last year as he was in his rookie season, so here's a thread on his 2018 disproving all of that. https://t.co/BHgg8hRv9y
Tweet from @Brickwallblitz: Deshaun Watson encountered a lot of setbacks in 2018, which include:
-Shaking off the rust coming off the ACL tear
-Rib/lung injuries
-Abysmal pass protection
-Losing Fuller
-Losing Demaryius Thomas before the postseason
-Bill O'Brien
Still put up a quality season.
Tweet from @Brickwallblitz: I get that Watson isn't perfect. He can hold onto the ball for way too long, and could see more improvement as a pocket passer. His playoff game against the Colts was bad.
But I think based on the majority of 2018, he dragged this flawed supporting cast to the postseason.
Tweet from @Brickwallblitz: Watson is phenomenal at creating outside the pocket, and has legitimately grown as a pocket passer, showing more cases of making multiple reads while refining his mechanics under pressure. Texans fans should be thrilled to have him, as he is so much fun to watch.
Tweet from @Brickwallblitz: I've seen a few people on here suggest Deshaun Watson is average, needs help to win, or wasn't as good last year as he was in his rookie season, so here's a thread on his 2018 disproving all of that. https://t.co/BHgg8hRv9y
Tweet from @Brickwallblitz: Deshaun Watson encountered a lot of setbacks in 2018, which include:
-Shaking off the rust coming off the ACL tear
-Rib/lung injuries
-Abysmal pass protection
-Losing Fuller
-Losing Demaryius Thomas before the postseason
-Bill O'Brien
Still put up a quality season.
Tweet from @Brickwallblitz: I get that Watson isn't perfect. He can hold onto the ball for way too long, and could see more improvement as a pocket passer. His playoff game against the Colts was bad.
But I think based on the majority of 2018, he dragged this flawed supporting cast to the postseason.
Tweet from @Brickwallblitz: Watson is phenomenal at creating outside the pocket, and has legitimately grown as a pocket passer, showing more cases of making multiple reads while refining his mechanics under pressure. Texans fans should be thrilled to have him, as he is so much fun to watch.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
This. You can tell who read the article & who knows what they're looking at when they watch our offense & who doesn't. Aside from the fact that 95% of pass plays run in the NFL have hot reads built into them, Hot reads & "quicker route" plays in an offense do no good if the qb doesn't take them. Now, I am a huge DW4 fan..........but I saw plenty of times last year where he didn't take his check downs when he should've...or he went there later than he should've. That's not necessarily a knock on DW4 (yet) b/c he's still young & learning how to play the game on this level. Even still, those types of decisions more often than not are net-negative plays.
As he grows & starts to get better at diagnosing pre-snap, better o-line protection i fully expect him to improve as the traditional pocket passer. But he's clearly got work to do.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Everybody on here seen and commented on Watson not taking his hot freaking reads. Crazy how some people come on here with bullcrap shots at other members for no reason. I honestly believe everyone on here knows what the bleep they are talking about. Every last person on here made quite a few valid points.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol, It was only a shot at you if you felt like I was talking about you.....
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
A vet QB, if they are a real franchise QB, can make a bad Oline look good. Just look at Brady over the years, he's had decent Olines but he makes them look much better than they are. Or you can have a rookie QB that a top tier Oline can give all the time in the world to and they can look like a million bucks. Just look at Dak in Dallas the year Romo went down. Trouble is the Texans have a rookie QB with a weak Oline and that's the perfect recipe for sack city. It sucks and it hurts to watch but its not uncommon.
Teams tend to focus on finding the franchise QB first and then they work to get protection for that QB. Sadly that usually means a season or two of the shiny new QB getting their face pushed into the ground unless they were lucky enough to come on to a team that already had a long term QB and they are just the next generation like Mahomes at KC. Lets be honest none of us would have been happy if they had spent the drafts pre-Watson trying to build an Oline to protect guys like Mallet or Savage or Osweiler. You really only care about protecting the QB if you think the QB can actually make a play with the extra time.
I'm not sure if the Texans have found their solution to the Oline problem, but I do give them credit for seeming to at least try and fix it. On the plus side if it isn't fixed this year next years draft is looking deep for linemen. We just have to keep Watson alive till then at least.
Teams tend to focus on finding the franchise QB first and then they work to get protection for that QB. Sadly that usually means a season or two of the shiny new QB getting their face pushed into the ground unless they were lucky enough to come on to a team that already had a long term QB and they are just the next generation like Mahomes at KC. Lets be honest none of us would have been happy if they had spent the drafts pre-Watson trying to build an Oline to protect guys like Mallet or Savage or Osweiler. You really only care about protecting the QB if you think the QB can actually make a play with the extra time.
I'm not sure if the Texans have found their solution to the Oline problem, but I do give them credit for seeming to at least try and fix it. On the plus side if it isn't fixed this year next years draft is looking deep for linemen. We just have to keep Watson alive till then at least.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Great points. But with the Cowboys massive top notch offensive line why was Dak getting killed last season. The pressure was on and even he had to utilize his legs a lot
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
As I recall, and I haven't looked it up to confirm and I refuse to go look up to much on the Cowboys, they lost a lot of talent between that season and last season where their line wasn't near the wall it was.
Texansballer74
The Marine
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Could just be Dak sucks then, though its not his fault, it happens to everyone that puts a Cowboy's uniform on.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Then you weren't watching very closely then. A great deal of Watson's pass attempts are caught on these NFL highlight videos on youtube & its rather easy to see, he has hot routes on almost every pass play. at the very least, he has a short dump off he can take.
9:26 mark. He has Miller leaking out of the backfield early if he wants him...Instead, he locks in on Nuk.....a little too long. by the time he swings & sees Miller streaking down the sideline & throws it up figuring "my guy is better than him" but its too late Ogletree is in damn perfect postion. If he hits Miller very close to immediately out of the backfield, that's AT LEAST a 3-4 yard gain instead of a TO. This isn't even talking about how Jordan Thomas the TE was uncovering very early off the LOS on the same side & he could've hit him too for a 5-6 yard gain as well.
1st play of the highlight reel..he has Akins leaking out..could've dumped it off, instead, tried to run & took the sack.
HaveMercy
Passing Through
And thus we now have Carl Smith as QB coach. This could be one of the most interesting dynamics to watch over the next few months. Whether he'll get the credit or not, if DWatson improves significantly in this area, Carl Smith should get a big round of applause.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Watson utilized his hot reads too. But he also held on to the ball a lot trying to hit the homerun play. The youngster even said that in his presser last week.
Smh
Smh
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Forgot to mention also in my previous post, That in the playoff game, our best drive of that game, the drive we scored on, DW4 hit his hot route/check down 3-4 times..he was decisive & didn't lock in on Nuk........ too much anyway.... & overall didn't give the defense time to react. He got the ball out fast & didn't press.
This isn't to say that he doesn't use his check downs and/or hot reads, he just has to learn to use them more; take what the defense is giving more often & be a bit more selective with his aggressiveness. Lean more on all his skill guys & stop locking in on Nuk so much. I've seen enough from him to believe he will be better about this as he gets more experience.
This isn't to say that he doesn't use his check downs and/or hot reads, he just has to learn to use them more; take what the defense is giving more often & be a bit more selective with his aggressiveness. Lean more on all his skill guys & stop locking in on Nuk so much. I've seen enough from him to believe he will be better about this as he gets more experience.
Those appear to be more checkdown options than hot reads.
Do we even know if O'Brien builds hot reads into the offense?
I wouldn't be surprised if he just kept back extra blockers instead.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
basically the same thing dude only difference is whether there's a blitz on or not that forces him to dump it off faster. but you go ahead & split hairs.
Not the same thing dude. If you are talking checkdowns just say checkdowns.
What's the difference? #really curious
I'm not an expert, so hopefully someone correct if this isn't exactly right, but a hot read is basically when a receiver, often a TE or RB, adjusts his route because of a blitz. There aren't enough blockers so the receiver fills the space by the blitzer.
A checkdown is just a safety valve when the primary options aren't open.
At one point Harbaugh just kept back extra blockers instead of using hot reads. I'm not sure if O'Brien does that, but he did go into max protect often and used TEs to chip/ block a lot.
Watson not on the same page with WRs or not understanding where the hot routes are going would be more concerning than him trying to make a play instead of just settling for a dump-off/checkdown.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Yeah so 1st of all, if you go back to my post i said hot reads and/or short dump offs or check downs....b/c both of which are put into plays for the qb to get off the ball in an emergent pressure situation instead of taking a loss/sack. The only real difference is whether the qb goes to them immediately or not AT HIS DISCRETION.
Second, they are basically the same thing if we're working with what you say below:
So..according to you, if hot routes are usually run by TE's and RBs (wrong as hell) then what else are they going to have time to run if the qb is supposed to be coming to them in "hot" situations...especically when TE's & RB's are mostly starting from somewhere inside the tackle box where there's tons of traffic? basically backfield flare outs, wheel routes, 2-5 yard curls/outs and & seam routes right? That's pretty much what those clips i highlighted show you.
Again, i don't want anyone to take this post & make it seem like i'm saying DW4 sucks and all this...I'm just trying to say that although he's good, he's still got PLENTY of room to grow as a passer & he is definitely not without fault in how this offense has run at times. The play is the play, but without proper execution by all 11, the play can look like a really bad call.
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And in my first post to you I was just asking if they were hot reads or checkdowns. I didn't say you didn't say AND/OR.
On your second paragraph, nope, TEs and RBs can run hot routes, but since OBrien usually keeps them back to block they probably don't in his system. You realize TEs and RBs can be lined up like receivers right? And flare outs/curl outs are checkdowns, yes they are different, they are a safety valve not adjusting a route due to a blitzer.
No one said DW4 doesn't have room to grow.
If I am wrong that hot routes are mostly run by TE/RBs, then you must be wrong that those clips are hot routes then.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Any OTA/mini camp news?
@phillip_heilman: #Jaguars CB A.J. Bouye says he notices plays in practice that he would have made in previous years that he hasn’t this year because QB Nick Foles puts the ball in the right spot so consistently.
As far as Texans news I don't see any.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Teams could get pressure on DW4 rushing only 4 so no need to blitz very much thus not a whole lot of reasons to run hot routes in the truest sense you're stating. I also never said that TE's & RB's couldn't run hot routes & i understand that they could be flexed out wide, but the routes these guys are running aren't very extensive...they're basically running the same damn routes they would if they weren't flexed out. BoB for his part in the offense didn't just keep the TE's & RB's in only to block nor did he just always send them out in route leaving DW4 to fend for himself either. He mostly settled on a hybrid approach (surprise, surprise) where if he did send them out in route, 95% of the time he had them chip block before going out. This in effect created a delayed release for them many times and effectively achieves the same goal as a hot route would.........which is basically to counter the defense's aggressiveness in getting up field after DW4.... much like a screen does. But none of that matters if DW4 chooses not to consistently utilize it.
But fair enough.
In OB's EP system, everyone should see the same thing ideally, so in a blitz situation all routes become hot routes, it's up to Watson t pick the right one for him
Texansballer74
The Marine
You do know he is just like Obrien. Lol bwhahaha he has to be the smartest guy in the room.
Texansballer74
The Marine
I believe he knows because he has hit both a lot in his rookie year. This past year he was trying too hard to hit the home run. Early on you can tell he was thinking about his leg. So he held onto the ball and ate the sack.
Hopefully the coaches drive home both scenarios and Watson be more acceptable to those type of plays.
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