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Texans Biggest Blunder?

mws

Waterboy
The 2 games Hopkins missed were both the last game of the season when Billy O was sitting starters anyway. I suspect if the games had been needed to get in the playoffs Hopkins would probably have played.

Of course this is just my opinion but durability is worth a lot. The fact is that the fans & the Texans could depend on Hopkins to be on the field when they needed him. And when he was on the field more often than not he delivered. I would much rather pay Hopkins more to be playing than Fuller less to be sitting on the bench.
 

KoolAid Sipper

Waterboy
Good stuff again.

I know a lot of people are hoping we will spread the ball around. Personally I don’t see it being dished out equally like that. I believe a healthy Fuller will see the bulk share of those targets. Then maybe Still or Cooks. The running backs and tight ends might receive the same amount of targets from last season.

I surely hope so but with this team and it’s history, watch them make the playoffs.

I was looking at the Adams deal and was like wtf we couldn’t get that for a top 10 player in this league. But hey that’s their forte right. They didn’t get squat for Clowney and they gave up too much for Tunsil.

I agree Tunsil is just average. We probably could’ve kept Brown for a lot more cheaper. He wasn’t asking for a mega contract.
IMO, I think it will be Cooks or Cobb who leads the WRs in targets. Nothing against Fuller but I don't think they will change what he does. D-Hop was phenomenal, his routes whether wrong or right I don't feel will be filled by Fuller. I do think Fuller will lead the team in yards per reception.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
IMO, I think it will be Cooks or Cobb who leads the WRs in targets. Nothing against Fuller but I don't think they will change what he does. D-Hop was phenomenal, his routes whether wrong or right I don't feel will be filled by Fuller. I do think Fuller will lead the team in yards per reception.
There’s a very good chance you’re right on point. I’m solely looking at who I believe Watson will be very confident in. There were several games in which Fuller had more targets than Hop. The two problems with Fuller is :
1. He’s very injury prone
2. Butterfingers

But when he’s on, he’s pretty good. He knows how to run all the routes in the route tree.

Watson should be good with Stills too.
 
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Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
IMO, I think it will be Cooks or Cobb who leads the WRs in targets. Nothing against Fuller but I don't think they will change what he does. D-Hop was phenomenal, his routes whether wrong or right I don't feel will be filled by Fuller. I do think Fuller will lead the team in yards per reception.

I don't know who leads the team in targets .... it could be anybody , we really have no idea what this offense is going to look like.

I know I was the first to mention Hopkins running poor / wrong routes and after hearing new information recently about who instigated the trade , that may have just been an excuse.
IF what I heard was true , its typical Texans / McNair choir boy - image is everything crap.
I really wish someone in the Texans media circle would break the story ... but they probably won't for fear of losing their credentials.
Either way , in regards to Hopkins production , it didn't matter what route he ran he was open even if he wasn't open or with defenders all over him. He just doesn't need much if any separation to make a catch.
In regards to the production of others , poor / bad routes could greatly impact their ability by defenders not being manipulated as they were designed by route combinations ....

With as many times as we saw multiple pass catchers in the same vicinity last year (and the year before) , its probably safe to assume that poor / wrong routes were part of that - reportedly why Coutee was in the doghouse too.

So that trade may have been a combination of issues both on and off the field. Still doesn't excuse the pathetic return they got for arguably the best WR in the game.
 

Decim8

Noob
There’s a very good chance you’re right on point. I’m solely looking at who I believe Watson will be very confident in. There were several games in which Fuller had more targets than Hop. The two problems with Fuller is :
1. He’s very injury prone
2. Butterfingers

But when he’s on, he’s pretty good. He knows how to run all the routes in the route tree.

Watson should be good with Stills too.
Khalil warring top 3 in the reception count :dance3:
 

KoolAid Sipper

Waterboy
IMO, I think it will be Cooks or Cobb who leads the WRs in targets. Nothing against Fuller but I don't think they will change what he does. D-Hop was phenomenal, his routes whether wrong or right I don't feel will be filled by Fuller. I do think Fuller will lead the team in yards per reception.
My feeling behind Cooks is he has good hands and great short area quickness, this should allow him to be open on short to medium routes in a short amount of time. This is a plus for DW4 and the OL. Cobb has the best hands IMO of the 3 (Fuller, Cooks, Cobb) and is smart. He also doesn't mind contact. The two of them are probably better "bad ball" receivers vs Fuller. Those are the things I believe will help in building the trust with DW4. Fuller is an explosive target as well and once he hits top speed he is faster than anyone of the team. I'm not ignoring Stills, he's an asset and a gamer.

I don't know if its been mentioned in this thread but I'm going beat this dead horse again. Before McNair's proposal to the NFL for the Texans, he should have had a final disposition agreement with Harris County on the Astrodome.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Don't get me wrong , he's a solid LT but he doesn't move the needle to the tune of the assets and cap allocation he's cost. Those are "Dominant player" assets and money. He's been solid but far from dominant.
I agree Tunsil is just average. We probably could’ve kept Brown for a lot more cheaper. He wasn’t asking for a mega contract.
I disagree. We got Duane Brown at 26 (or something like that) & there have been all pros & what not drafted later. But I am happy we got Tunsil.

Much better than spending the money on Trent Brown & asking him to do for us what he did for Belichick & Brady.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I disagree. We got Duane Brown at 26 (or something like that) & there have been all pros & what not drafted later. But I am happy we got Tunsil.

Much better than spending the money on Trent Brown & asking him to do for us what he did for Belichick & Brady.
You think he was worth 2 #1's and a #2 and that he presents any value at all at $22m per which is 12.9% of next years salary cap at 170m ?

Based purely on results - which have been mediocre at best , I don't see the value. Not when they haven't performed any better with him than without.

They actually scored more points per game with Davenport and Clark at the tackle spots than they did last year with Tunsil. They also had a better record 11-5 vs 10-6.

Don't get me wrong here - I like Tunsil better than what we had ... but I don't like the cost be that the acquisition cost or the cap hit.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You think he was worth 2 #1's and a #2 and that he presents any value at all at $22m per which is 12.9% of next years salary cap at 170m ?

Based purely on results - which have been mediocre at best , I don't see the value. Not when they haven't performed any better with him than without.

They actually scored more points per game with Davenport and Clark at the tackle spots than they did last year with Tunsil. They also had a better record 11-5 vs 10-6.

Don't get me wrong here - I like Tunsil better than what we had ... but I don't like the cost be that the acquisition cost or the cap hit.
I'm just glad they added elite talent across the OL.

If only Devlin could coach them up to their abilities.

The cost didn't bother me. BOB valued the LT position over the WR position. Rightfully so, IMHO
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I'm just glad they added elite talent across the OL.

If only Devlin could coach them up to their abilities.
I don't see elite talent on this OL at any position. I see average at best.


If he was worth that $22m per , you would expect to be able to run behind him and get a yard when you need it against anyone at all. They Cant.
Kinda funny that they ran right behind Howard / Clark / Johnson than behind Tunsil .... They were also more productive in running right.

The cost didn't bother me. BOB valued the LT position over the WR position. Rightfully so, IMHO
It wasn't one or the other. Hopkins was under contract and money was not why he was traded.

Paying Tunsil 12.9% of the cap is just as bad as paying Watson above that magical 13.1% figure - maybe worse.

If the idea was to use draft capital to fix the hole , they'd have been better off packaging those picks to move up and get the rookie they liked most and have him on a rookie contract for 5 years instead of getting bent over the proverbial barrel by Tunsil to the tune of the richest contract in the history of the league for a lineman and only being 3 years so he can do it again.

Yeah , he's better than the disaster we had at LT but that aint saying much. We paid for superstar talent and we're getting "pretty solid" not superstar.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I disagree. We got Duane Brown at 26 (or something like that) & there have been all pros & what not drafted later. But I am happy we got Tunsil.

Much better than spending the money on Trent Brown & asking him to do for us what he did for Belichick & Brady.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
8. DUANE BROWN, SEATTLE SEAHAWKS
2018 OVERALL GRADE RANK: 5
The addition of Brown at left tackle made the world of difference for a Seattle offensive line that finished the 2018 season ranked 17th in pass-blocking efficiency after finishing 29th in 2017. Brown allowed just 21 quarterback pressures from his 501 pass-blocking snaps on the year and surrendered just six combined sacks and hits.
Tunsil didn’t make PFF’s top ten Thunder.

 

OptimisticTexan

Go Texans!!!
A year later and under contract.....would Tunsil return to the Texans, (2) RD1 picks and a (1) RD2 pick if he were made available tomorrow? Great way to test the trade.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I don't see elite talent on this OL at any position. I see average at best.


If he was worth that $22m per , you would expect to be able to run behind him and get a yard when you need it against anyone at all. They Cant.
Kinda funny that they ran right behind Howard / Clark / Johnson than behind Tunsil .... They were also more productive in running right.



It wasn't one or the other. Hopkins was under contract and money was not why he was traded.

Paying Tunsil 12.9% of the cap is just as bad as paying Watson above that magical 13.1% figure - maybe worse.

If the idea was to use draft capital to fix the hole , they'd have been better off packaging those picks to move up and get the rookie they liked most and have him on a rookie contract for 5 years instead of getting bent over the proverbial barrel by Tunsil to the tune of the richest contract in the history of the league for a lineman and only being 3 years so he can do it again.

Yeah , he's better than the disaster we had at LT but that aint saying much. We paid for superstar talent and we're getting "pretty solid" not superstar.
We're getting DW4 protected on his blindside and I think Tunsil is only scratching his surface at 25 yrs old. He should improve with health and a full TC. I also think that Tunsil/Scharping/Howard have a chance to grow into a fine OL.

As far as the other stuff with Nuk, I hope everything eventually comes out.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Based purely on results - which have been mediocre at best , I don't see the value. Not when they haven't performed any better with him than without.

They actually scored more points per game with Davenport and Clark at the tackle spots than they did last year with Tunsil. They also had a better record 11-5 vs 10-6.
I could say something witty about correlation, causation, & relation, but I'm not very witty.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club

Thunder this is why I believe we could’ve extended Brown verses going the route we went with Tunsil. They could’ve also gave Hopkins his little extension.

This article has him ranked 13 and Brown 14.
Absolutely.


But Brown didn't want to be here.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
It's really only two late 1sts if you factor in Stills and a 4th.
To me it's only two firsts if it's the draft the draft currently on the clock & next year's 1st.

If we're talking about next year's 1st & the 1st the year after, I see it as next year's 1st & a pick with 2nd round value.


Two 2021 1sts are worth a lot more than a 2021 1st & a 2022 1st.
 

OptimisticTexan

Go Texans!!!
They wouldn't get 2 seconds much less 1 firsts.
Since this season could prove to be very fickle from a will they play or will they cancel point of view.....if there was any chance Tunsil could return the Texans (2) RD1 picks then I would seriously entertain the idea of trading him, even if I'd have to eat 40M in dead cap money this season....or would that dead cap money be applied to the 2021 cap? If not, there'd be the option of planning ahead for the 2021 and 2022 season.

Brain-Storming futility at its finest since I'm talking about the Texans and OB.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Since this season could prove to be very fickle from a will they play or will they cancel point of view.....if there was any chance Tunsil could return the Texans (2) RD1 picks then I would seriously entertain the idea of trading him, even if I'd have to eat 40M in dead cap money this season....or would that dead cap money be applied to the 2021 cap? If not, there'd be the option of planning ahead for the 2021 and 2022 season.

Brain-Storming futility at its finest since I'm talking about the Texans and OB.

Season or no season , I'd assume any dead money would hit the books immediately.

And I'd trade him and that contract for 2 firsts in a heartbeat .... but I don't think you'd find a team that would offer it.

Not because he isn't a good player but because of the cost in both assets and cap hit.

I think most teams would much prefer to trade up in the draft and get their favorite rookie prospect who's under team control for 5 years at a bargain price than trade two #1's and pay top dollar too.

I guess after the revolving door this team has had at the tackle spots since Brown left , some people are more willing to accept both the asset cost and the financial cost ...
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
2 late #1's is one thing - I'd be willing to do that myself but I'd want the 5 years of team control on a rookie deal or a reasonable extension in place - not having to pay #9 like #1.
You weren't going to get a 25 yr old LT on a rookie deal in a trade. As a 25 yr old he coming off a pro bowl yr while playing with a shoulder that needed surgery, I expect Tunsil to move up in those rankings. The talent is there all Devlin has to do is get the most out of Tunsil's talent. SMH
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
I don't see elite talent on this OL at any position. I see average at best.
With o-linemen, the sum is always greater than its parts; been that way forever. Even still, Tunsil made the pro bowl this year for the 1st time in his career & as flawed as that system is, they don't hand those nods out to "average" performers. Obviously, there's better talent there than you would like to give credit for. your bias is showing.

If he was worth that $22m per , you would expect to be able to run behind him and get a yard when you need it against anyone at all. They Cant.
Kinda funny that they ran right behind Howard / Clark / Johnson than behind Tunsil .... They were also more productive in running right.
Considering that he had a rookie starting right next to him and he himself was brought in at the 11th hour & they had a journeyman RB who cracked 1000 yards for the 1st time in his career, he couldn't have been too bad in the run game & i think they did ok. The other part to this is DW4 took 15 less sacks than he did last year..You think the biggest catalyst for that was Howard & the whole 8 games he started for us last year? Scharping the rookie holding it down? Devlin's improved coaching?

It wasn't one or the other. Hopkins was under contract and money was not why he was traded.
I mean this is speculative. We have 1 guys' thoughts on why he wanted out...which also happens to be the guy who was traded. Furthermore, if you're suggesting that we should've just played hardball with Nuk and not even entertained Nuk's money requests....................if there actually were requests, that didn't exactly work out to well with the last star player we tried to do that with, Duane Brown.


If the idea was to use draft capital to fix the hole , they'd have been better off packaging those picks to move up and get the rookie they liked most and have him on a rookie contract for 5 years instead of getting bent over the proverbial barrel by Tunsil to the tune of the richest contract in the history of the league for a lineman and only being 3 years so he can do it again.

Yeah , he's better than the disaster we had at LT but that aint saying much. We paid for superstar talent and we're getting "pretty solid" not superstar.
Can't look at it from a pure value standpoint. You're saying "fix" as if it was: a.) a guarantee that they would be able to nab the rookie o-linemen they liked the best, b.) said rookie was gonna come in & at the very least be average & c.) that said rookie would be good enough to be around in 5 years & a legit starter for us to take advantage of having him on his rookie deal, let alone the 3 from a guy who has already proven that he can play in this league.

Seems to me, you're underplaying the value of acquiring a young, above average & most importantly PROVEN player at his position while simultaneously overplaying the value of picks.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
People around hese parts have been trained to overvalue picks. Why? Because the draft is all fans of the guys on Kirby have had to look forward to over a decade and a half.

Where have those picks gotten this franchise? Give me proven talent at key positions over picks any day. QB/LT/TE/Edge/CB/Coverage LB.
 

Decim8

Noob
With o-linemen, the sum is always greater than its parts; been that way forever. Even still, Tunsil made the pro bowl this year for the 1st time in his career & as flawed as that system is, they don't hand those nods out to "average" performers.

Seems to me, you're underplaying the value of acquiring a young, above average & most importantly PROVEN player at his position while simultaneously overplaying the value of picks.
Agree with your points, but I think the bolded is the issue corrosion has with the trade. He probably expected more esp with what was given.

As for me, I actually think the oline will get better
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
People around hese parts have been trained to overvalue picks. Why? Because the draft is all fans of the guys on Kirby have had to look forward to over a decade and a half.

Where have those picks gotten this franchise? Give me proven talent at key positions over picks any day. QB/LT/TE/Edge/CB/Coverage LB.


I think its b/c of how huge college football has become & b/c of how good of a job the NFL has done marketing the draft over the last 15-20 years. & its funny b/c while fans are still looking at 1st round picks like they're Willy Wonka golden tickets, NFL FO's have started to come down off of that notion a little in light of seeing how The Patriots have been able to do it over the last 2 decades & how more & more of the college game begins to infiltrate the NFL.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
People around hese parts have been trained to overvalue picks. Why? Because the draft is all fans of the guys on Kirby have had to look forward to over a decade and a half.

Where have those picks gotten this franchise? Give me proven talent at key positions over picks any day. QB/LT/TE/Edge/CB/Coverage LB.
Where has proven talent gotten us can be asked as well.

You’re looking at this thing the wrong way. Coaching is the key. Give me great coaching
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Going out to get proven talent is what finally got us over the hump in 2011 when we went out and got J-jo and Manning. Imagine if that doesn't happen. Not only are we not making the playoffs that year, Kareem who was our 1st rounder in 2010 doesn't have J-jo as his mentor....which could've adversely affected his development..we saw what kind of rookie season he had in 2010....no bueno.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Agree with your points, but I think the bolded is the issue corrosion has with the trade. He probably expected more esp with what was given.

As for me, I actually think the oline will get better
I get that, but if you look at it in only the way he has chosen to look at it, you're not encompassing all of the value that the Tunsil trade & his subsequent signing brought to the team. That is to say that his play can't be the only thing he judged by. His acquistion adds big time residual value to DW4's..........and to a guy like Scharping as well. How much value you place upon that is where I think Corrosion downplays the Tunsil acquistion. Me personally, i place a nice chunk of value on that.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
That is not the only reason why we got over the hump in 2011. Wade Phillips was brought in as the DC. JJ Watt was drafted. The emergence of B. Cushing and we could go on and on. It wasn’t just acquiring JoJo and Manning.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
That is not the only reason why we got over the hump in 2011. Wade Phillips was brought in as the DC. JJ Watt was drafted. The emergence of B. Cushing and we could go on and on. It wasn’t just acquiring JoJo and Manning.
Agreed

You think Wade could've had something to do with drafting Watt/signing JoJo/Manning in FA?
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
That is not the only reason why we got over the hump in 2011. Wade Phillips was brought in as the DC. JJ Watt was drafted. The emergence of B. Cushing and we could go on and on. It wasn’t just acquiring JoJo and Manning.
Never said they were..but they were key cogs if not THE key cogs for why that defense did a complete 180 from where they were the year before. Don’t know how well Wade’s defense would’ve held up with KJ being our #1 cb...with a Jason Allen or Mister Alexander as your #2 cb......With Dominique Barber starting at FS in place of Manning. As Shaq would say our secondary would’ve been “Bar-b-que chicken” For offenses.............like we were the year before.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Correct me if im wrong but under Kubiak, hasn't the draft picks been defence heavy though? Even before wade came in.

Atleast if i could remember correctly, the first pick was always on a defensive player
You are correct...just off the top of my head:

Travis Johnson
Amobi Okoye
JJ Watt
Whitney Mercilus
K-Jax
Mario
Cushing
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
You weren't going to get a 25 yr old LT on a rookie deal in a trade. As a 25 yr old he coming off a pro bowl yr while playing with a shoulder that needed surgery, I expect Tunsil to move up in those rankings. The talent is there all Devlin has to do is get the most out of Tunsil's talent. SMH
With o-linemen, the sum is always greater than its parts; been that way forever. Even still, Tunsil made the pro bowl this year for the 1st time in his career & as flawed as that system is, they don't hand those nods out to "average" performers. Obviously, there's better talent there than you would like to give credit for. your bias is showing.



Considering that he had a rookie starting right next to him and he himself was brought in at the 11th hour & they had a journeyman RB who cracked 1000 yards for the 1st time in his career, he couldn't have been too bad in the run game & i think they did ok. The other part to this is DW4 took 15 less sacks than he did last year..You think the biggest catalyst for that was Howard & the whole 8 games he started for us last year? Scharping the rookie holding it down? Devlin's improved coaching?



I mean this is speculative. We have 1 guys' thoughts on why he wanted out...which also happens to be the guy who was traded. Furthermore, if you're suggesting that we should've just played hardball with Nuk and not even entertained Nuk's money requests....................if there actually were requests, that didn't exactly work out to well with the last star player we tried to do that with, Duane Brown.




Can't look at it from a pure value standpoint. You're saying "fix" as if it was: a.) a guarantee that they would be able to nab the rookie o-linemen they liked the best, b.) said rookie was gonna come in & at the very least be average & c.) that said rookie would be good enough to be around in 5 years & a legit starter for us to take advantage of having him on his rookie deal, let alone the 3 from a guy who has already proven that he can play in this league.

Seems to me, you're underplaying the value of acquiring a young, above average & most importantly PROVEN player at his position while simultaneously overplaying the value of picks.
We'll just have to agree to disagree ..... I expect more than he's putting out for the draft capital it took to acquire him and for the cap hit he's going to consume going forward.

We're paying the guy like he's the best player in the league at his position - He should perform as such. He's been good but not great. The Texans paid for "Great" in both assets and cash.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
We'll just have to agree to disagree ..... I expect more than he's putting out for the draft capital it took to acquire him and for the cap hit he's going to consume going forward.

We're paying the guy like he's the best player in the league at his position - He should perform as such. He's been good but not great. The Texans paid for "Great" in both assets and cash.
I thought two late 1sts is about right for a proven LT with the ability to get much better as a 25 yr old. He would've been the best LT in this last draft by far. IMHO

I expect him once healthy to really improve and eventually become a top 3-5 OT and when that happens in a couple of yrs he will no longer be the highest paid LT. (This depends on the cap/Covid-19) He will be paid at about the level that's correct for his play. (Top 3-5)

BTW, I really respect your opinion and enjoy the back and forth. I especially like the way you consider the cap when contracts like Tunsil's are done and your opinions on the cap mgmt.

Would you say so far BOB's done a good or bad job of cap mgmt. I would say BOB's been Meh in this regard because I would've used DJ's $$$$$ on the defense. Either signing CB Jones or re-signing Reader. Imagine a front with Watt/Reader/Blacklock. (I'm really high on Blacklock.) I think that front 3 with Mercilus/Martin coming off the edge would've been a great DL and much improved at pressuring the QB.
 

otisbean

Veteran
Contributor's Club
I thought two late 1sts is about right for a proven LT with the ability to get much better as a 25 yr old. He would've been the best LT in this last draft by far. IMHO

I expect him once healthy to really improve and eventually become a top 3-5 OT and when that happens in a couple of yrs he will no longer be the highest paid LT. (This depends on the cap/Covid-19) He will be paid at about the level that's correct for his play. (Top 3-5)

BTW, I really respect your opinion and enjoy the back and forth. I especially like the way you consider the cap when contracts like Tunsil's are done and your opinions on the cap mgmt.

Would you say so far BOB's done a good or bad job of cap mgmt. I would say BOB's been Meh in this regard because I would've used DJ's $$$$$ on the defense. Either signing CB Jones or re-signing Reader. Imagine a front with Watt/Reader/Blacklock. (I'm really high on Blacklock.) I think that front 3 with Mercilus/Martin coming off the edge would've been a great DL and much improved at pressuring the QB.
I agree with your thoughts on Tunsil. I haven’t been impressed with OB’s cap mgmt so far. Martin, Mercilus, Murray, and Cobb were all over pays IMO. Cobb was a FA with a proven track record so I’m willing to let that one slide. Howeve, Murray is a lesser known player and I can’t imagine we were bidding against anyone else. Martin and Mercilus contracts were head scratchers. Neither are bad players but they‘re definitely overpaid.

Personally, I liked Reader as a player but I wouldn’t have paid him what the Bengals did. I would rather have used that money to add an upgrade to the secondary or a proven pass rusher.

I feel like our offense and defense are in the same boat. It wouldn’t surprise me if either were significantly better or worse next season
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
People around hese parts have been trained to overvalue picks. Why? Because the draft is all fans of the guys on Kirby have had to look forward to over a decade and a half.

Where have those picks gotten this franchise? Give me proven talent at key positions over picks any day. QB/LT/TE/Edge/CB/Coverage LB.
I think its b/c of how huge college football has become & b/c of how good of a job the NFL has done marketing the draft over the last 15-20 years. & its funny b/c while fans are still looking at 1st round picks like they're Willy Wonka golden tickets, NFL FO's have started to come down off of that notion a little in light of seeing how The Patriots have been able to do it over the last 2 decades & how more & more of the college game begins to infiltrate the NFL.
To me, I don't care how we acquire players... draft, trade, free agency. What I do care about is getting good value. Unfortunately, there's this salary cap thing we have to worry about.

The great thing about acquiring a good player via draft, is you have GREAT value on that player for 5 years.

Tunsil is a good player, and I highly doubt we could have gotten a better player via draft. But if I ask whether we got Tunsil at good value, he's nowhere close. We gave up two 1sts, and now the most expensive OLineman in the league.

@Mr teX mentioned the JJo/Manning acquisitions. Those were great acquisitions because it was such great value. Instead of overpaying for Asomugha, we got the better value with JJo/Manning.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
To me, I don't care how we acquire players... draft, trade, free agency. What I do care about is getting good value. Unfortunately, there's this salary cap thing we have to worry about.

The great thing about acquiring a good player via draft, is you have GREAT value on that player for 5 years.

Tunsil is a good player, and I highly doubt we could have gotten a better player via draft. But if I ask whether we got Tunsil at good value, he's nowhere close. We gave up two 1sts, and now the most expensive OLineman in the league.

@Mr teX mentioned the JJo/Manning acquisitions. Those were great acquisitions because it was such great value. Instead of overpaying for Asomugha, we got the better value with JJo/Manning.
Value is a sliding scale and is relative. J-Jo and Manning were great value acquisitions in your eyes b/c they performed and the defense improved dramatically. Tell me, would you still think they were good “value” acquisitions if the Other members of the secondary still kept the defense from ascending and we were largely still terrible on that side of the ball? Probably not.

You guys are comparing the Tunsil acquisition to the undisputed best case scenario of drafting or acquiring a pro bowl caliber LT who can start for u right out of the gate...& getting all that for pennies on the dollar...Sure it is possible and we would’ve all preferred that, but we all know those caliber of guys don’t come available...especially LT’s and 2, the draft itself is a crapshoot. What good does it do to have a player under control for 5 years if said player sucks? How much value does a player have if he’s just been mediocore to bad for all those 5 years?

Dream, your doing the same thing Corrosion is doing, overvaluing draft picks and undervaluing what it means to the team, offensive line as a whole and DW4 to have a guy like Tunsil protecting his blindside.

more often than not, with star players you’re going to overpay, that’s just how it goes. so this notion that Tunsil had us “over the barrel” b/c we paid what we did to acquire him is nonsense. Any player who plays well and/or adds significant value to his team has his team over the Proverbial barrel...that is in theory and if the team wants him to come back.

Tunsil’s value since arriving here is noted in a ton less sacks for DW4, a pro bowl nod and an instant upgrade and solidification at a position that was largely a revolving door before him; and that is value that you got immediately..you didn’t have to wait a year or 2 to see like you most likely would’ve if you took a chance on some rookie.
 


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