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Takeaways from the Falcons game.

Go back and look at the Niner's in the 80s-90s. They were a dynasty. 70s Steelers. The Bills in the 90s were the unluckiest dynasty ever. All those teams drafted well and developed their own players.
Can’t compare them, the current free agency system didn’t even exist at that time which is why deals like the Walker deal could happen then but can’t now. That’s not even counting the changes to the college system or the life span of an average NFL career. If we are going to compare apples to apples 2000 is about as far back as you can go.
 
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Rich Schmidt

Myopicone
Go back and look at the Niner's in the 80s-90s. They were a dynasty. 70s Steelers. The Bills in the 90s were the unluckiest dynasty ever. All those teams drafted well and developed their own players.
I do believe in the draft, but those were 30-50 years ago in an entirely different league and machine gun Kelley / Steve Young were not drafted by Bills/Niners. If you draft well and coach well, you should have good teams. What the Pats have done in a capped league is amazing. Usually once teams win, they get paid and the team explodes. Him and Brady don't let anyone feel like a star, and the coaching is top notch so everyone is replacable. I think now the top teams are pretty much because of the best QBs. They fix a lot of holes, and attract free agent players. When Tunsil is asked about DW4 after the hell he was in, he lights up. It is called hope.
 

dream_team

All Pro
I do believe in the draft, but those were 30-50 years ago in an entirely different league and machine gun Kelley / Steve Young were not drafted by Bills/Niners. If you draft well and coach well, you should have good teams. What the Pats have done in a capped league is amazing. Usually once teams win, they get paid and the team explodes. Him and Brady don't let anyone feel like a star, and the coaching is top notch so everyone is replacable. I think now the top teams are pretty much because of the best QBs. They fix a lot of holes, and attract free agent players. When Tunsil is asked about DW4 after the hell he was in, he lights up. It is called hope.
Not to mention Brady has consistently agreed to give his team big discounts, he doesn't get injured, and apparently he doesn't get old. I don't know what kind of deal he made with the devil?
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Huh? I am so confused with where you actually stand? I guess I should come to expect this. This was your quote.



But yet, Charlie Weis said EP has gained popularity because of its simplicity, easier for the players & quarterback to learn. EP was designed to make things easier for the QB, but you say he shouldn't be running EP?
The point is he's still struggling to lean the EP system.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Joseph/Roby flipping sides (to follow their man) instead of maintaining their side. Johnson switching slot with Roby as situation best dictates.
And that would be incorrect.
I had seen JJo flipping side last year (and in other years).
Just go back and watch the highlights of first game last year on Youtube; you will see it fairly early.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I do believe in the draft, but those were 30-50 years ago in an entirely different league and machine gun Kelley / Steve Young were not drafted by Bills/Niners. If you draft well and coach well, you should have good teams. What the Pats have done in a capped league is amazing. Usually once teams win, they get paid and the team explodes. Him and Brady don't let anyone feel like a star, and the coaching is top notch so everyone is replacable. I think now the top teams are pretty much because of the best QBs. They fix a lot of holes, and attract free agent players. When Tunsil is asked about DW4 after the hell he was in, he lights up. It is called hope.
100% agree about the Pats. It's gonna be interesting to see how BB handles TB12 when he starts to act his age. You are correct about Kelly and Young.
Sure, it was easier to keep players before FA, but you still had to draft well. Look how crappy the Niner's, Steelers, Cowboys (70s dynasty) and Oilers were until they got a FO that could draft worth a damn and coaches that could coach worth a damn. The best GM can be ruined by a bad coach and vice versa. Look at Stafford, Bradford and Rivers. They've been some of the better QBs in the league and have had inferior drafting and coaching.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Perhaps just me but I think Watson is smart and wait for it----
I know he's smart. Still, can't deny there are communication issues from the LOS, where the play caller has nothing to do with it. We see blitzers running free that Watson don't. TEs running into the pattern allowing a free rusher with no one in the backfield to pick him up. Two receivers running to the same spot. Watson telling receivers they were supposed to go this way not that.

& when we're not playing marshmallows the game looks too fast.

I think BO'b put the whole offense on him instead of breaking it into little pieces & I believe Watson is overwhelmed.

But, I know he's smart & it's just a matter of time before he had full command of the whole thing.

Kansas City's defense isn't too bad. But Indy is going to be fun.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
The point is he's still struggling to lean the EP system.
No he's not. OB doesn't run EP. OB doesn't understand how to teach EP. That's why every time he's successful it's always because he changed from running his version of EP. OB's introduction to EP was NE with Brady. Sure. OB made Brady a better QB. TB12 ignored the hell out of OB (see also Tea Pot sideline scene). Besides, doesn't a good coach adapt to what his players do best? If Watson isn't picking up what OB is putting down a good coach would figure out what Watson is picking up and go with that. Watson is the one out there executing the offense. It's directly upon the coaching staff to make that as efficient as possible. By most metrics, that means OB is the stupid (read hard headed) one.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I know he's smart. Still, can't deny there are communication issues from the LOS, where the play caller has nothing to do with it. We see blitzers running free that Watson don't. TEs running into the pattern allowing a free rusher with no one in the backfield to pick him up. Two receivers running to the same spot. Watson telling receivers they were supposed to go this way not that.

& when we're not playing marshmallows the game looks too fast.

I think BO'b put the whole offense on him instead of breaking it into little pieces & I believe Watson is overwhelmed.

But, I know he's smart & it's just a matter of time before he had full command of the whole thing.

Kansas City's defense isn't too bad. But Indy is going to be fun.
OB is the one with the learning disability.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
OK ... my opinion is the offense is set and Watson is a potential MVP candidate . Watson is like what they said about Dan Marino and Oliver Luck . Luck is a Rhode scholar candidate until he's on the field , then Marino becomes Einstein .

The defense is a work in progress but they are still in the hunt .

Personnel wise , I agree with you …. they have the pieces.

Might be the best WR quartet in the league.
Watson has talent - its a matter of the coach getting the best out of him - putting him in position to succeed rather than in positions that expose his faults.
The OL has been improving and I expect it to get significantly better by seasons end.
Hyde and Duke are both doing a pretty good job.

Its all gonna come down to the coaching and playcalling on the offensive side of the ball.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
It appears he was referring to earlier this year.
That would still be incorrect.
Watch the Chargers game’s highlights, for example.
The TD that JJo gave up was on the right side of the defense.
There are other plays where JJo and the rookie “flip side” just the same.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I remember somebody was all hyped up about Savage starting. Thought he was going to be the savior. Kept saying he knows the playbook through and through. Oh how wrong they were on that one. Just like they're wrong about Watson.

Most who wanted Savage to start knew he wasn't "the savior" or even really a starting NFL QB.

It was not wanting to throw Watson into the fire and not wanting to get him pummeled behind that crappy OL. Let the "just a guy" (Savage) take the beating while Watson learns on the bench for all if not most of the year before throwing him to the wolves.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
The point is he's still struggling to lean the EP system.

NO he's not struggling to learn the system.

He knows the system.

Its that OB's version of it just sucks balls. It Does Not Work because he wont adapt.

You could have <Name your hall of famer here> behind center and get the same results against the Jags and Panthers.

OB didn't adapt , rather he kept running plays straight into the teeth of their defense.

This has been the theme since the beginning of last season - OB thinks his system can do what he wants even when it cant. <OB bangs his head against the proverbial wall>
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Why can we say things like this with such surety but can't express any confidence whatsoever that Tunsil will get extended?

Because they will be near capped out extending the players they have and wont have premium draft capital to fill the voids.

They have quite a few big contributors as free agents this offseason and next.


Full list here

Mercilus
Reader
Roby
JJo
Hyde
Fells
Dylan Cole
Addae
Roderick Johnson

2021 is even worse

Watson
Fuller
Tunsil
Cunningham
Stills
Mancz
Scarlett

There's not going to be a whole lot of cap space left over to fill roster holes in either year and they wont have the draft picks to supplement the roster either.
 

TheKDog

Hall of Fame
Because they will be near capped out extending the players they have and wont have premium draft capital to fill the voids.

They have quite a few big contributors as free agents this offseason and next.


Full list here

Mercilus
Reader
Roby
JJo
Hyde
Fells
Dylan Cole
Addae
Roderick Johnson

2021 is even worse

Watson
Fuller
Tunsil
Cunningham
Stills
Mancz
Scarlett

There's not going to be a whole lot of cap space left over to fill roster holes in either year and they wont have the draft picks to supplement the roster either.
And then 2022 is Watt, Fulton and Reid. No big deal!
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
No he's not. OB doesn't run EP. OB doesn't understand how to teach EP. That's why every time he's successful it's always because he changed from running his version of EP. OB's introduction to EP was NE with Brady. Sure. OB made Brady a better QB. TB12 ignored the hell out of OB (see also Tea Pot sideline scene). Besides, doesn't a good coach adapt to what his players do best? If Watson isn't picking up what OB is putting down a good coach would figure out what Watson is picking up and go with that. Watson is the one out there executing the offense. It's directly upon the coaching staff to make that as efficient as possible. By most metrics, that means OB is the stupid (read hard headed) one.
He would like to run the EP system but it doesn't fit Watson.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
And then 2022 is Watt, Fulton and Reid. No big deal!
Not sure you want to re-sign Watt/Fulton in 2022. If you do the cap is going to go up when the new CBA gets done.
I know he's smart. Still, can't deny there are communication issues from the LOS, where the play caller has nothing to do with it. We see blitzers running free that Watson don't. TEs running into the pattern allowing a free rusher with no one in the backfield to pick him up. Two receivers running to the same spot. Watson telling receivers they were supposed to go this way not that.

& when we're not playing marshmallows the game looks too fast.

I think BO'b put the whole offense on him instead of breaking it into little pieces & I believe Watson is overwhelmed.

But, I know he's smart & it's just a matter of time before he had full command of the whole thing.

Kansas City's defense isn't too bad. But Indy is going to be fun.
This is what I meant when I wrongly used the word stupid. Thanks for expressing my thoughts more eloquently.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
NO he's not struggling to learn the system.

He knows the system.

Its that OB's version of it just sucks balls. It Does Not Work because he wont adapt.

You could have <Name your hall of famer here> behind center and get the same results against the Jags and Panthers.

OB didn't adapt , rather he kept running plays straight into the teeth of their defense.

This has been the theme since the beginning of last season - OB thinks his system can do what he wants even when it cant. <OB bangs his head against the proverbial wall>
Disagree

There were open receivers in the middle of the field in those games. The only reason we had this discussion is because Watson missed a few big passes in those games against top defenses.
 
He would like to run the EP system but it doesn't fit Watson.
Its more accurate to say that the version BoB has been running doesn't fit him. The EP system itself is very customizable and is design to fit pretty much any type of QB or team. As I've said before BoB like big arm pocket passers and that's what he has designed his system for. That's not the EP system itself that's his version of it.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Its more accurate to say that the version BoB has been running doesn't fit him. The EP system itself is very customizable and is design to fit pretty much any type of QB or team. As I've said before BoB like big arm pocket passers and that's what he has designed his system for. That's not the EP system itself that's his version of it.
Agreed, This is one of the reasons BOB needed to change the offense to make things easier on Watson. BOB is asking Watson to do more than he's currently capable of doing. This doesn't mean he cant learn all of the things BOB asks him to do. However I think after 3 yrs of learning the system it's fair to ask if he will ever truly get it. This makes some uncomfortable.

Brady doesn't have an overly strong arm and had a record breaking season with BOB as OC.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Its more accurate to say that the version BoB has been running doesn't fit him. The EP system itself is very customizable and is design to fit pretty much any type of QB or team. As I've said before BoB like big arm pocket passers and that's what he has designed his system for. That's not the EP system itself that's his version of it.
Bill O'Brien's version didn't fit any quarterback we've had so far. But when he actually runs the correct EP system, Watson has flourished, Fitzpatrick has had a few really good games, Hoyer had some decent games and even trashy Brock had a few aight games in it. That's when it was the actual EP system.
 

mws

Waterboy
Agreed, This is one of the reasons BOB needed to change the offense to make things easier on Watson. BOB is asking Watson to do more than he's currently capable of doing. This doesn't mean he cant learn all of the things BOB asks him to do. However I think after 3 yrs of learning the system it's fair to ask if he will ever truly get it. This makes some uncomfortable.

Brady doesn't have an overly strong arm and had a record breaking season with BOB as OC.
If what you say is even close to right isn't that more of an indictment of O'Brian than it is Watson. Why did he spend 3 years trying to force a system that wasn't working on a supremely talented young QB instead of adapting the system to fit him.

This absolutely makes me uncomfortable with O'Brian and his ability to get his players in the best position to win.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
If what you say is even close to right isn't that more of an indictment of O'Brian than it is Watson. Why did he spend 3 years trying to force a system that wasn't working on a supremely talented young QB instead of adapting the system to fit him.

This absolutely makes me uncomfortable with O'Brian and his ability to get his players in the best position to win.
Which is why I've been calling for BOB to switch back to the offense Watson's most comfortable in.
 
And that would be the real EP system.
See again this is a misunderstanding about what the EP system is. The version BoB has been running is the real EP system, the version he ran against the falcons is the real EP system, the version BB ran when he was completely dependent on Brady is the real EP system as is the version now that leans much more of the defense. There is no "Real EP system" its like saying what is a real house. Some maybe 200 sq ft, some maybe 2000 sq ft, some may have 5 bathrooms, some only 1. Some are made of wood, some brick and some out of clay. They are all real houses though they are just different to fit the person that lives there either due to preference, budget or location.

The EP system, at least the current form of it, is one of the most fluid systems out there. Its why so many teams with some many different strengths and weaknesses run it. Because its a jack-of-all-trades systems.
 

santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
OB needs to run a 2 TE system like the Pats did with Gronk/Hernandez, a 3 back system like the Pats did when they didn't have a legit running back, an Eldelman/Welker with maybe Stills, Carter and Coutee. The only thing OB really can't run is the Moss system, but it would work if he tried the other ones first opening Fuller/Hopkins.

He has all these options the Pats ran before. The thing is with OB is that he tries to stick to a certain ideal that sometimes doesn't work.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
See again this is a misunderstanding about what the EP system is. The version BoB has been running is the real EP system, the version he ran against the falcons is the real EP system, the version BB ran when he was completely dependent on Brady is the real EP system as is the version now that leans much more of the defense. There is no "Real EP system" its like saying what is a real house. Some maybe 200 sq ft, some maybe 2000 sq ft, some may have 5 bathrooms, some only 1. Some are made of wood, some brick and some out of clay. They are all real houses though they are just different to fit the person that lives there either due to preference, budget or location.

The EP system, at least the current form of it, is one of the most fluid systems out there. Its why so many teams with some many different strengths and weaknesses run it. Because its a jack-of-all-trades systems.

I know how the EP system operates Maverick. But what Obrien runs does not look like it at all IMO. Not even the vanilla version of it.
 

dream_team

All Pro
See again this is a misunderstanding about what the EP system is. The version BoB has been running is the real EP system, the version he ran against the falcons is the real EP system, the version BB ran when he was completely dependent on Brady is the real EP system as is the version now that leans much more of the defense. There is no "Real EP system" its like saying what is a real house. Some maybe 200 sq ft, some maybe 2000 sq ft, some may have 5 bathrooms, some only 1. Some are made of wood, some brick and some out of clay. They are all real houses though they are just different to fit the person that lives there either due to preference, budget or location.

The EP system, at least the current form of it, is one of the most fluid systems out there. Its why so many teams with some many different strengths and weaknesses run it. Because its a jack-of-all-trades systems.
Thanks for clarifying. Since all of this EP debate, I've been reading a lot of articles on EP. I didn't really know what it meant. From what I've read, you are correct.

So when someone says Watson can or can't run EP, they basically don't know what they're talking about. It would be more correct to say Watson can/can't run BOB's offense.
 

beerlover

Hall of Fame
Tunsil is the meat and potatoes to keep Watson healthy. With the 4 picks in rds 2-4 they should be able to do what you want them to do.

They have cap room to re-sign the FA's they want to keep. I kind of hope they trade one of the 3rds for a 2021 2nd.
they traded away 2nd & 3rd already. I have no interest anymore in what they do or don’t do draft wise, because they don’t even have a draft left to develop.
 
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