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State of the O-line

JB said:
We know Mancz plays guard at a high level, do we know that about Martin? If it ain't broke, don't fix it
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Something to be tried in training camp. The OL needs to be given the time to develope chemistry, but at some point the question needs to asked whether we need to get better performance from the OC position
 
I'm really liking Mancz at RG and Lamm at RT for the rest of the season and playoffs. Their chemistry has produced results and it's sad that they haven't even had the opportunity to share the field all that often.

Martin continues to be a question mark for me which is why I'm intrigued with the idea of drafting Dalton Risner from Kansas State. This guy is playing lights out at RT but projects strongly at Center in the NFL. He has what O'Brien loves and looks for in an OL.....versatility.

I could see the team going into next off-season with Martin, Kelemete, and Fulton who could actually vie for Center, throw in a stud draft pick like Risner and the interior OL could be set since Risner has the capability of competing at RT with Lamm. I'd really like to O'Brien and Devlin stick Mancz at RG and leave him there. They just seem against getting him the time needed to really improve his game at one primary position.

Add one solid LT and I think this OL will have the depth and versatility to be pretty dang good.
 
thunderkyss said:
You said his natural position is LG.

You said BO'b probably played him at LT because it was the position he was most comfortable playing.

Do you not see the contradiction there?
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Nor ar all and if you watch collwge football and Rankin in particular you should know what I'm talking about.

But then again you seem to be in gotcha mode, so I really can understand that you don't know what your talking about.

Watch some of Rankin tape and get back with me.
 
One thing to be thinking about, is that drafting Offensive tackles in the 1st round has become a real crap shoot. Over 50% of OT drafted in the 1st round since 2012 have been busts. This article from the Ringer goes into great depth on the problem "https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason". So thinking that just grabbing any highly rated OT prospect is going to fix our OL issues may be a pipe dream.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
One thing to be thinking about, is that drafting Offensive tackles in the 1st round has become a real crap shoot. Over 50% of OT drafted in the 1st round since 2012 have been busts. This article from the Ringer goes into great depth on the problem "https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason". So thinking that just grabbing any highly rated OT prospect is going to fix our OL issues may be a pipe dream.
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Before colleges started running these run pass option offenses , OT was one of the easiest positions to scout IIRC .
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
One thing to be thinking about, is that drafting Offensive tackles in the 1st round has become a real crap shoot. Over 50% of OT drafted in the 1st round since 2012 have been busts. This article from the Ringer goes into great depth on the problem "https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason". So thinking that just grabbing any highly rated OT prospect is going to fix our OL issues may be a pipe dream.
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Absolutely great analysis.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
One thing to be thinking about, is that drafting Offensive tackles in the 1st round has become a real crap shoot. Over 50% of OT drafted in the 1st round since 2012 have been busts. This article from the Ringer goes into great depth on the problem "https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason". So thinking that just grabbing any highly rated OT prospect is going to fix our OL issues may be a pipe dream.
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This point of the college spread ruining the NFL preparation for OL is a subject we've discussed repeatedly over time. The article articulates the problem in very simple and understandable terms. Thanks for posting it.
 
Just my .02 : Davenport, Rankin, ?, Mancz and Lamm are starters in 2019. Back ups to become starters soon can be drafted as I've posted recently. Cajuste in first, Mitch Hyatt second round and Scharping in third solidifies line. Cajuste can backup or start LT going forward. Hyatt starts over Rankin LG or backs up. Center is my concern but if Scharping can play RG and Mancz can start at center great.

So if Martin leaves (2019 cap savings $1 m) but hopefully he improves and he is cheap: LT D or Cajuste, LG Rankin or Hyatt, C Martin or Mancz, RG Fulton, Manczor Scharping and RT Lamm or Scharping..

Fulton at center:
When the Chiefs drafted Fulton out of Tennessee in the sixth round in 2014, he had never played a game at center. Although it was an adjustment in the aforementioned 2015 training camp — after he spent his rookie season starting at guard — playing the position has become “second nature” now, he said.
From the Chiefs’ perspective, it’s appeared to be a relatively seamless transition from Morse to Fulton. After Fulton took over late in the year, the Chiefs responded with a three-game winning streak, running for 442 yards over that time span...
“With Zach, there’s a reliability,” Chiefs offensive coordinator Matt Nagy said. “For us as coaches and for the quarterbacks, just kind of knowing as a backup center (he can) come in and replace Mitch, there’s not a lot of thinking going on. Zach comes in. He’s been there, done that. He’s a smart guy. We get up to the line of scrimmage, and we roll. So there’s a comfort level with him in there, being able to come in as a backup.”
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full article https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article192841409.html
 
Question: is O-Line beginning to become a strength for us? We dominate in the running game lately and even pass protection seems to have improved. A lot of the sacks Watson takes are on him holding the ball too long. And all of this with a lot of injuries on the line. I think that was the second game in a row where we were down to 5 linemen at a time.

At the beginning of the season our line was beyong horrible - now it seems capable. I am not saying we shouldn’t adress the line heavily in the draft and FA, but I guess we already have more fitting pieces than I thought...
 
AFN didn't carry the game yesterday so I went to Base Theater and watched, Bohemian Rhapsody. The game and movie both came on at 1900. Anyhow, if you liked Queen you're going to like the movie. I can see this movie opening the floodgates for more 60's-70's type of musician or band movies.

Anyhow, back to the game, who started on the OL and how did they look overall? Stats say they gave up 4 sacks, several pressures but ran the ball with authority once again. What did the eye test say?
 
OptimisticTexan said:
AFN didn't carry the game yesterday so I went to Base Theater and watched, Bohemian Rhapsody. The game and movie both came on at 1900. Anyhow, if you liked Queen you're going to like the movie. I can see this movie opening the floodgates for more 60's-70's type of musician or band movies.

Anyhow, back to the game, who started on the OL and how did they look overall? Stats say they gave up 4 sacks, several pressures but ran the ball with authority once again. What did the eye test say?
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The first sack Davenport ran the OLB wide but the OLB was able to horse collar tackle Watson with one arm. No flag on that play. In the second half the Browns were in a all out blitz. One of the sacks, the DB was hidden pretty good. Punk joker went straight at Watsons knees . Great call on the DC from the Browns. The other two sacks were on Watson holding on to the ball too long. Watson looking for the big one instead checking it down.

Overall the offensive line did pretty good. Especially when the Browns were bringing the house darn near every down.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
AFN didn't carry the game yesterday so I went to Base Theater and watched, Bohemian Rhapsody. The game and movie both came on at 1900. Anyhow, if you liked Queen you're going to like the movie. I can see this movie opening the floodgates for more 60's-70's type of musician or band movies.

Anyhow, back to the game, who started on the OL and how did they look overall? Stats say they gave up 4 sacks, several pressures but ran the ball with authority once again. What did the eye test say?
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Strength? LOL

Acceptable finally? Yes

Gotta add more talent.
 
steelbtexan said:
Strength? LOL

Acceptable finally? Yes

Gotta add more talent.
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Yeah, I know I was exaggerating - but still: so far we are the Team with the 3d most rushing Yards. And we don't even have a real big Name HB. Miller is averaging 5 ypc. Aber the last couple of games we were rushing all over the opponents. I know we have more running Plays than most Teams, but still, this is impressive for the OL.

And passing - our line was horrible at the beginning and middle of the Season. Lately most sacks are on Watson for Holding the ball the Long or on the DC calling just the right Play.

Overall the OL war more a plus than a minus the last couple of games - and this is with several guys playing banged up.
 
LikeMike said:
Yeah, I know I was exaggerating - but still: so far we are the Team with the 3d most rushing Yards. And we don't even have a real big Name HB. Miller is averaging 5 ypc. Aber the last couple of games we were rushing all over the opponents. I know we have more running Plays than most Teams, but still, this is impressive for the OL.

And passing - our line was horrible at the beginning and middle of the Season. Lately most sacks are on Watson for Holding the ball the Long or on the DC calling just the right Play.

Overall the OL war more a plus than a minus the last couple of games - and this is with several guys playing banged up.
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Still doesn't mean I wouldn't draft a couple of OL's. They also need a deep threat since it appears that Fuller cant stay healthy.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm trying to remember. Lamm went out first. They moved Zach Fulton out to RT, Mancz to LG.

So I wonder if they've given up on Rankin at tackle, or if they just don't want him on the right side.
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Who played RG when Fulton moved to RT?
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm trying to remember. Lamm went out first. They moved Zach Fulton out to RT, Mancz to LG.

So I wonder if they've given up on Rankin at tackle, or if they just don't want him on the right side.
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I went back and checked and Fulton came out first and Mancz came in for him and played the rest of the snaps at RG. Then Lamm came out and Rankin came in at RT and played the rest of the snaps there. Also fairly certain that I remember Davenport coming out earlier in the game and they switched Lamm to the left side and brought in Rankin at RT for a play or 2. It might be reading too much into it, but at the time I was thinking that it signaled Rankin might be done at LT. But I guess they could be thinking of him at LT given a full training camp there. Thought he looked pretty good at RT for what it's worth.
 
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Max said:
I went back and checked and Fulton came out first and Mancz came in for him and played the rest of the snaps at RG. Then Lamm came out and Rankin came in at RT and played the rest of the snaps there. Also fairly certain that I remember Davenport coming out earlier in the game and they switched Lamm to the left side and brought in Rankin at RT for a play or 2. It might be reading too much into it, but at the time I was thinking that it signaled Rankin might be done at LT. But I guess they could be thinking of him at LT given a full training camp there. Thought he looked pretty good at RT for what it's worth.
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I really hope he's done at LT and, I hope they don't have to use him much at RT either! If for no other reason than to build some sort of continuity on the O-line heading into the playoffs. But really, as I've thought all along, I think Rankin is best suited inside at OG or OC. Also, I hope he does't have to play LT or RT anymore because that would mean someone else got injured and they are too thin at O-line now to be able to overcome a long term injury this season. Don't want to see that and it won't do much for their chances in the playoffs either! And finally, I don't want to see Rankin at LT or RT again because I hope they draft at least one, or even better 2, OT's in the early rounds next year and then move Rankin inside permanently! It could be Gaine's early Christmas gift to the fans next year! LOL!
 
Max said:
I went back and checked and Fulton came out first and Mancz came in for him and played the rest of the snaps at RG. Then Lamm came out and Rankin came in at RT and played the rest of the snaps there. Also fairly certain that I remember Davenport coming out earlier in the game and they switched Lamm to the left side and brought in Rankin at RT for a play or 2. It might be reading too much into it, but at the time I was thinking that it signaled Rankin might be done at LT. But I guess they could be thinking of him at LT given a full training camp there. Thought he looked pretty good at RT for what it's worth.
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The 1 play Davenport came out they moved Lamm to LT, Fulton out to RT, and Mancz at RG. It was 1 play in which they ran a WR screen I believe, just to get the ball out quickly. Davenport was back in the next play for the FG
 
My solution to the Oline:
- sign Donovan Smith as a FA to play LT (ascending player who is already better than what we have now and was one of Billy O's guys at PSU)
- draft David Edwards (OT/Wisconsin) with the round 1 pick
- move Rankin inside permanently

LT: Smith (6'6'', 338)
LG: Rankin (6'5'', 311)
C: Martin (6'4'', 300)
RG: Fulton (6'5'', 315)
RT: Edwards (6'7'', 315)
Swing tackle: Davenport
IOL depth: Mancz (C) and Kelemete (OG)

I do not think that the above is a top notch OL in the NFL but I think it is in the upper half of the league and drastically improved from what Watson has dealt with in the past/present.
 
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Childress79 said:
My solution to the Oline:
- sign Donovan Smith as a FA to play LT (ascending player who is already better than what we have now and was one of Billy O's guys at PSU)
- draft David Edwards (OT/Wisconsin) with the round 1 pick
- move Rankin inside permanently

LT: Smith
LG: Rankin
C: Martin
RG: Fulton
RT: Edwards
Swing tackle: Davenport
IOL depth: Mancz (C) and Kelemete (OG)

I do not think that the above is a top notch OL in the NFL but I think it is in the upper half of the league and drastically improved from what Watson has dealt with in the past/present.
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Do you think D. Smith will fall all the way to 32 in the draft? That's where the Texans will be drafting. I would prefer Mancz at C and Martin as depth
:kitten:
 
1) I think Edwards could fall that far (mostly I think that Williams, Little, and Cajuste go before him given the greater chance they can play LT)
2) I hear you about Martin as the starter and Mancz the back up but it seems that Billy O has decided he prefers Martin and that's who he is riding with. I myself would love a scenario where we chose Edwards teammate Biadasz to either start or be groomed to be the OC.
 
DocBar said:
Do you think D. Smith will fall all the way to 32 in the draft? That's where the Texans will be drafting. I would prefer Mancz at C and Martin as depth
:kitten:
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D. Smith is a FA LT.

Signing a guy like Smith and drafting a guy that can play either LT/RT would be optimal. (Evans from Oklahoma/Dillard Wash St. come to mind.)

BTW, I love your optimism.
 
steelbtexan said:
D. Smith is a FA LT.

Signing a guy like Smith and drafting a guy that can play either LT/RT would be optimal. (Evans from Oklahoma/Dillard Wash St. come to mind.)

BTW, I love your optimism.
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I'm not that optimistic. I was just making what I considered to be a funny.
 
DocBar said:
Do you think D. Smith will fall all the way to 32 in the draft? That's where the Texans will be drafting. I would prefer Mancz at C and Martin as depth
:kitten:
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If I am going after a FA Left Tackle in 2019 (which I think we should do), I am going after Trent Brown from the Patriots (previously with the 49er's). Brown is a very good pass blocker (our biggest weakness), but a little light in run blocking.

Von Miller with the Bronco's has called Brown, the best pass blocker he ever faced. Brown has always had good Pass Blocking grades on Football Focus, and he is only 26 years old.

Pass blocking is our biggest weakness. Trent Brown is a possible fix. If we managed to sign Trent Brown, I would still want the Texans to draft an Offensive Tackle in the 1st round if they could get someone worthy of the pick, without reaching.

But signing Trent Brown would remove the gun to the Texans Head to draft a OT even if there was no one with a 1st round grade when they finally pick late in the 1st round.

If the Texans want to take this offense from its current 1973 AMC Gremlin status, to the 2018 Masarati status that you see with KC and the Ram's, the Texans need to protect Deshaun suffiently without having to Max protect with the Tight End's and RB's. BOB can not open up the throttle on the passing attack, if we are just send 2 WR out in to patterns. Getting the Pass Blocking from the O-Line up to snuff, is the key to taking advantage of Deshaun's vast talent, and BOB's play calling abilities.

To fix the horrible pass blocking that they are getting out of this offensive line, the Texans need to try ever possible avenue, through both Free Agency as well as the draft.
 
Childress79 said:
My solution to the Oline:
- sign Donovan Smith as a FA to play LT (ascending player who is already better than what we have now and was one of Billy O's guys at PSU)
- draft David Edwards (OT/Wisconsin) with the round 1 pick
- move Rankin inside permanently

LT: Smith (6'6'', 338)
LG: Rankin (6'5'', 311)
C: Martin (6'4'', 300)
RG: Fulton (6'5'', 315)
RT: Edwards (6'7'', 315)
Swing tackle: Davenport
IOL depth: Mancz (C) and Kelemete (OG)

I do not think that the above is a top notch OL in the NFL but I think it is in the upper half of the league and drastically improved from what Watson has dealt with in the past/present.
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Donovan Smith: Buccaneers Iron Man, Free Agent to be...

Having not missed a start in his career, Donovan Smith is the current Buccaneers “Iron Man” and is looking to continue to improving his play in order to cash in next off-season.

By Kyle_Marks Jul 15, 2018, 3:00pm EDT

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Briefly technically, he broke his "iron man" label with an MCL sprain in August which required missing the last 2 weeks of TC...........but most importantly "iron man" to date still has not lost a regular season game to injury. Smith has a significant upside, especially when placed in an OL that is not made up of only slugs. Smith would have a good chance of having fans forgetting "the other #76.:texflag:
 
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CloakNNNdagger said:
Donovan Smith: Buccaneers Iron Man, Free Agent to be...

Having not missed a start in his career, Donovan Smith is the current Buccaneers “Iron Man” and is looking to continue to improving his play in order to cash in next off-season.

By Kyle_Marks Jul 15, 2018, 3:00pm EDT

**********************************************


Briefly technically, he broke his "iron man" label with an MCL sprain in August which required missing the last 2 weeks of TC...........but most importantly "iron man" to date still has not lost a regular season game to injury. Smith has a significant upside, especially when placed in an OL that is not made up of only slugs. Smith would have a good chance of having fans forgetting "the other #76.:texflag:
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Would you sign Smith if it meant having to let KJax go. I would. Would you sign Smith to a Solder type contract? Because that's what it's going to take to get him to sign on down on Kirby.

But before I did that I would let guys like Miller/KJo/Griffin go to clear more cap space so I could keep KJax and extend Mathieu.
 
steelbtexan said:
Would you sign Smith if it meant having to let KJax go. I would. Would you sign Smith to a Solder type contract? Because that's what it's going to take to get him to sign on down on Kirby.

But before I did that I would let guys like Miller/KJo/Griffin go to clear more cap space so I could keep KJax and extend Mathieu.
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I believe Smith's performance ceiling is much higher than seen with the Bucs.............Solder has already seen his ceiling, and I don't believe it is higher than Smith's present status. His contract at Solder's level IMO would be more justified. A LT draftee, although much cheaper, no matter what position of pick would still be a crap shoot and would still require a year or two of "development."

Kjax is too versatile to get rid of. Miller, if he continues to show what he is showing through the playoffs, would be a mistake to release. Griffin and KJo would not be missed.

The Texans with a 2019 cap space of ~120 million can be very creative to sign who we need and who we need to retain without puttin us in cap hell any time soon.
 
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steelbtexan said:
Would you sign Smith if it meant having to let KJax go. I would. Would you sign Smith to a Solder type contract? Because that's what it's going to take to get him to sign on down on Kirby.
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I think we now know that Solder is not worthy of a Solder type contract, but is Smith ?
 
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