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State of the O-line

Texansballer74 said:
Tom Brady, Big Ben, A. Rodgers and D. Breezy begs to differ OptimisticTexan.
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Texansballer74 I will counter with a few QB's whose situations were a little closer...Steve Young (TB years), Vinny Testeverde (Was color blind until he got behind an OL that could protect him), Andrew Luck, Troy Aikman (Before the HW trade that transformed the team) etc. I've done this exercise before on other sites.

The guys you mentioned...they pretty much enjoyed great environments upon their arrival or when they took over as QB1. None of those guys were strapped with making Tampa Bay (70'-80's) or Cleveland (00's) into the dynasty's they enjoyed playing for during their tenures. Seriously, New England, Pittsburgh, Green Bay and New Orleans (The good seasons) are your examples!
 
OptimisticTexan said:
This is why a QB cannot make a lousy OL look great!!! Savage and Watson are not magicians...
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Correct. You need a good QB to compensate for a poor OL... neither Tom Savage or DeShaun Watson have enough games behind them to be considered "good QBs" yet.

Not only that, we need to find a way to get some yac. All those underneath throws Tom Completed yesterday, if those guys could have made a play that defense would have backed up, gave us more room. But our guys were getting tackled by the one guy covering him. Remember last week when that running back juked Cunningham in the open field before he got the ball, then ran away from him after he caught the ball? That dude (Rex Burkhead) posted a 4.73 forty four years ago.

We need to find a way to get big plays out of the run game & the short passing game. Or at least the ability to move the chains. Hop could make that happen. Fiedo can make that happen. Griffin can make that happen, Lamar Miller, D'Onta Foreman, Akeem Hunt, & so far in the Preseason Blue seems to be able to make that happen.

Those guys didn't play last night. Well, Griffen had a couple of catches for first downs.

I think (hope) Ellington will join that group. Looks good so far.
 
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thunderkyss said:
One Positive about Osweiller's play last season is that he didn't hold on to the ball. He might have thrown it in the dirt, in the stands, or to the other team, but he rarely ate it & took a sack. Low sack numbers & a pretty good run game made for a good, "the OL ain't that bad" argument.

Tom's not about getting the ball out. He'll take some senseless sacks he shouldn't. The run game (draw on 3rd & long) will probably continue to post good numbers, though situationally I expect them to be as useless as always (can't convert, can't score).

We're going to need our coaches to come up with blitz beaters our team can execute. We're going to need our coaches to come up with run stunts our team can routinely execute to get 1 yard.

& that reminds me... Spencer Tillman was commenting on a play Savage was audibling to. He mentioned how the Saints defense looked weak/suspect on the right side. I looked & verified, we had the strongside set on our right, we had the numbers, but Savage ran the play to the left... the strength of the defense & it got stuffed.

I don't know if he did that to get it on film, or if he just didn't know any better.

Anyway, the coaches have their work cut out for them. If O'Brien can make a top 8 offense in the AFC, He'll earn that "guru" title.
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8 out of 16 = Guru?
Dude, you have a multi-million dollar job for me?
:brando:
 
Those guys I mentioned all at one point played with some terrible Oline play. They utilize either a quick release, great pocket awareness or were able to extend plays with their feet OptimisticTexan. Their teams still were contenders because the QB play made their Oline better.

Savage and/or Watson will have to be creative enough to hopefully help this line out.
 
76Texan said:
Where's that guru? Certainly not here in Houston.
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This is what I'm saying.

With what we have left I expect this offense to be pretty much what it's been the last three years. 29th... 27th...

If a coach where to produce a top offense in the AFC with what we got, he'll have earned my respect.
 
thunderkyss said:
This is what I'm saying.

With what we have left I expect this offense to be pretty much what it's been the last three years. 29th... 27th...

If a coach where to produce a top offense in the AFC with what we got, he'll have earned my respect.
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You could raise Coryell from the grave and this offense is going to be offensive until they fix the OL. I guess you expect BOB to be a miracle worker in the Benny Hin type of miracles.

BTW, I called this in the offseason when I saw how they neglected the OL.
 
steelbtexan said:
You could raise Coryell from the grave and this offense is going to be offensive until they fix the OL. I guess you expect BOB to be a miracle worker in the Benny Hin type of miracles.

BTW, I called this in the offseason when I saw how they neglected the OL.
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I agree with you. It's not that I expect O'Brien to perform miracles. I'm just saying if he does, he's a miracle worker.
 
The more Savage looks competent , the longer Brown is out , the more this OL sucks the worse the idea of drafting Watson looks .... Maybe those guys wanting to draft OL talent early on were onto something. Coulda picked up OL#1 and taken Beathard or someone later in the draft ...... especially if the plan was to roll with Savage anyhow.

(This is no knock on Watson , just saying if he aint playing he aint helping and they could damn sure use OL help)
 
Corrosion said:
The more Savage looks competent , the longer Brown is out , the more this OL sucks the worse the idea of drafting Watson looks .... Maybe those guys wanting to draft OL talent early on were onto something. Coulda picked up OL#1 and taken Beathard or someone later in the draft ...... especially if the plan was to roll with Savage anyhow.

(This is no knock on Watson , just saying if he aint playing he aint helping and they could damn sure use OL help)
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This is what I've been saying almost to the point of preaching all offseason and I wasn't even a huge Savage fan. I wanted to go with Savage this yr and draft a QB in 2018 after building up the OL.
 
Corrosion said:
The more Savage looks competent , the longer Brown is out , the more this OL sucks the worse the idea of drafting Watson looks .... Maybe those guys wanting to draft OL talent early on were onto something. Coulda picked up OL#1 and taken Beathard or someone later in the draft ...... especially if the plan was to roll with Savage anyhow.

(This is no knock on Watson , just saying if he aint playing he aint helping and they could damn sure use OL help)
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I think teams that just draft QBs to draft QBs end up with Geno Smiths & Blake Bortles. I think/hope drafting Watson was because they see that rare thing most QBs dont have.

I'm not saying Watson has it, only that they think he does. & if they think that, drafting an OL in the first & a QB later is not the same. I know what the preseason numbers look like. But this is the long game.
 
Corrosion said:
The more Savage looks competent , the longer Brown is out , the more this OL sucks the worse the idea of drafting Watson looks .... Maybe those guys wanting to draft OL talent early on were onto something. Coulda picked up OL#1 and taken Beathard or someone later in the draft ...... especially if the plan was to roll with Savage anyhow.

(This is no knock on Watson , just saying if he aint playing he aint helping and they could damn sure use OL help)
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I still think Beathard (pro/WCO) can be ready sooner than Watson (but not as much potential).

Beathard + Moton or Garcia + 2018 1st rounder is a safer strategy, IMHO.
 
I saw nothing from Watson that I would hang my hat on.

I can see why Obrien named Savage the starter.... but he is JAG.

I do realize it is just the pre-season, still no excuse for the sorry display in NO.

Looks like another year of wasting a great D.

Watt huffing and puffing after three plays doesn't encourage me about his recovery either.

:coffee:
 
Seattle has had one of the weaker OL units in the league for years now. They seem to stay competitive somehow.

It's not like we don't have talent. RT is the only position where a significant investment hasn't been made. Depth is not good but most teams in the NFL feel that way on the OL. At some point, what we really need is someone that can actually coach these guys.
 
steelbtexan said:
This is what I've been saying almost to the point of preaching all offseason and I wasn't even a huge Savage fan. I wanted to go with Savage this yr and draft a QB in 2018 after building up the OL.
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I've also taken this "unpopular" stance for very long time, especially when the shoot-the-wad QB acquisitions overshadowed the quest for OL talent and with loss of draft picks sealed the OL's fate, likely beyond this season.
 
Yesterday, I saw XSF allow pressure because he fell for a fake. It wasn't even a spin move or shoulder fake. The DL just fake/waved his hands and XSF acted like it was a Dream Shake.

I'm on the verge of giving up on that guy.
 
Corrosion said:
The more Savage looks competent , the longer Brown is out , the more this OL sucks the worse the idea of drafting Watson looks .... Maybe those guys wanting to draft OL talent early on were onto something. Coulda picked up OL#1 and taken Beathard or someone later in the draft ...... especially if the plan was to roll with Savage anyhow.

(This is no knock on Watson , just saying if he aint playing he aint helping and they could damn sure use OL help)
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Spot on Corrosion...couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Earl34 said:
Yesterday, I saw XSF allow pressure because he fell for a fake. It wasn't even a spin move or shoulder fake. The DL just fake/waved his hands and XSF acted like it was a Dream Shake.

I'm on the verge of giving up on that guy.
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Again, Filo with his big belly looks more like a DL than a LG. He has still not taken his conditioning seriously.
 
thunderkyss said:
Correct. You need a good QB to compensate for a poor OL... neither Tom Savage or DeShaun Watson have enough games behind them to be considered "good QBs" yet.

Not only that, we need to find a way to get some yac. All those underneath throws Tom Completed yesterday, if those guys could have made a play that defense would have backed up, gave us more room. But our guys were getting tackled by the one guy covering him. Remember last week when that running back juked Cunningham in the open field before he got the ball, then ran away from him after he caught the ball? That dude (Rex Burkhead) runs posted a 4.73 four years ago.

We need to find a way to get big plays out of the run game & the short passing game. Or at least the ability to move the chains. Hop could make that happen. Field can make that happen. Griffin can make that happen, Lamar Miller, D'Onta Foreman, Akeem Hunt, & so far in the Preseason Blue seems to be able to make that happen.

Those guys didn't play last night. Well, Griffen had a couple of catches for first downs.

I think (hope) Ellington will join that group. Looks good so far.
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Thunderkyss...Andrew Luck hasn't figured out how to make his lousy OL look good or keep himself healthy since Irsay and the Colts decided getting a QB far outweighed the idea of how they would protect him over the long haul. Best current example available in the NFL!!!

RS and the Texans have fumbled the ball on the 1 yard line by hocking the 2018 Draft and not addressing the OL during the draft to take a QB that has the potential to be good but will need at least a season correcting his game. Every analyst echoed these sentiments before the draft...not to mention, many thought RS way over-paid to get Watson.

My feeling, RS is setting the table for something beyond O'Brien. If RS knew O'Brien as well as he thought he did, then he should have been well aware of the fact that O'Brien's preference was not to start a rookie QB in year 1 which makes the decision to...hock the 2018 NFL Draft for a QB who wouldn't see the field instead of focusing his 2017 NFL Draft on upgrading an OL that would really help shape this offense going forward...look pretty bad.
 
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76Texan said:
I still think Beathard (pro/WCO) can be ready sooner than Watson (but not as much potential).

Beathard + Moton or Garcia + 2018 1st rounder is a safer strategy, IMHO.
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thunderkyss said:
I think teams that just draft QBs to draft QBs end up with Geno Smiths & Blake Bortles. I think/hope drafting Watson was because they see that rare thing most QBs dont have.

I'm not saying Watson has it, only that they think he does. & if they think that, drafting an OL in the first & a QB later is not the same. I know what the preseason numbers look like. But this is the long game.
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Clearly they saw something special in Watson, something with big upside and not that I'm saying he has it because I dunno that much about QBs ? But you don't expend two first round picks on just any college QB you don't expect any special results from.
 
IDEXAN said:
Clearly they saw something special in Watson, something with big upside and not that I'm saying he has it because I dunno that much about QBs ? But you don't expend two first round picks on just any college QB you don't expect any special results from.
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Do I have to remind you that this is the Texans FO we're dealing with?
 
bah007 said:
Seattle has had one of the weaker OL units in the league for years now. They seem to stay competitive somehow.

It's not like we don't have talent. RT is the only position where a significant investment hasn't been made. Depth is not good but most teams in the NFL feel that way on the OL. At some point, what we really need is someone that can actually coach these guys.
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You may be right. Alex Gibbs felt that he could get the guys he needed in the 4th, 5th and 6th Rounds and coach them up. He usually did and for the most part Gibbs' teams were usually #1 or #2 in rushing. I remember one of my biggest disappointments after O'Brien was hired was his choice for OL Coach.
 
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IDEXAN said:
Clearly they saw something special in Watson, something with big upside and not that I'm saying he has it because I dunno that much about QBs ? But you don't expend two first round picks on just any college QB you don't expect any special results from.
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Boy, if they could see that clearly in regards to Watson...who was doing the looking in regards to the players gathered to play OL for the Texans? Just curious. If the same eyes used to determine the OL was in great shape...then I would be more than a little concerned in the drafting of Watson.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Boy, if they could see that clearly in regards to Watson...who was doing the looking in regards to the players gathered to play OL for the Texans? Just curious. If the same eyes used to determine the OL was in great shape...then I would be more than a little concerned in the drafting of Watson.
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Because evaluating OL and QB are the same thing.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Again, Filo with his big belly looks more like a DL than a LG. He has still not taken his conditioning seriously.
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25_Eisenberg_OsemeleYanda_news.jpg
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Thunderkyss...Andrew Luck hasn't figured out how to make his lousy OL look good or keep himself healthy since Irsay and the Colts decided getting a QB far outweighed the idea of how they would protect him over the long haul. Best current example available in the NFL!!!

RS and the Texans have fumbled the ball on the 1 yard line by hocking the 2018 Draft and not addressing the OL during the draft to take a QB that has the potential to be good but will need at least a season correcting his game. Every analyst echoed these sentiments before the draft...not to mention, many thought RS way over-paid to get Watson.

My feeling, RS is setting the table for something beyond O'Brien. If RS knew O'Brien as well as he thought he did, then he should have been well aware of the fact that O'Brien's preference was not to start a rookie QB in year 1 which makes the decision to...hock the 2018 NFL Draft for a QB who wouldn't see the field instead of focusing his 2017 NFL Draft on upgrading an OL that would really help shape this offense going forward...look pretty bad.
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I know it's not perfect. But our offensive line was not as bad as you're eluding, last year. It makes sense that they'll do as well, maybe better this year. & while there is room for improvement, practically no one was saying, "Until they fix their OL..." they were saying, "Until the fix the QB issue..." & they've been saying it for three years.

There were crappy OTs in FA, crappy OTs in the draft... We got an OT who has history with our OL coach & we drafted an OT with excellent measureables. D'Onta Foreman looks like he's going to be a game changer... We need a feature back. I'm not a fan of Cunningham's, but I can see the thought process to adding him to our team.

We could have drafted OL (XSF, Nick Martin) & we'd still be complaining.
 
thunderkyss said:
I know it's not perfect. But our offensive line was not as bad as you're eluding, last year. It makes sense that they'll do as well, maybe better this year. & while there is room for improvement, practically no one was saying, "Until they fix their OL..." they were saying, "Until the fix the QB issue..." & they've been saying it for three years.

There were crappy OTs in FA, crappy OTs in the draft... We got an OT who has history with our OL coach & we drafted an OT with excellent measureables. D'Onta Foreman looks like he's going to be a game changer... We need a feature back. I'm not a fan of Cunningham's, but I can see the thought process to adding him to our team.

We could have drafted OL (XSF, Nick Martin) & we'd still be complaining.
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I wanted Derek Carr instead of Su'a-Filo which I believe would have answered the QB question a few years ago. They could've focused on the OL much sooner and more often if needed. I think that was Raiders approach and it may start to pay dividends.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I wanted Derek Carr instead of Su'a-Filo which I believe would have answered the QB question a few years ago. They could've focused on the OL much sooner and more often if needed. I think that was Raiders approach and it may start to pay dividends.
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We got to the same spot as the Raiders last season. They've got an OL, we've got a defense. More than one way to skin a cat.
 
thunderkyss said:
Maybe I've got the same physique & don't want to admit I'm not the stud I used to be.
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Even if you do, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it certainly would not take away from you being a stud. If you were expected to hold your own on the Texans OL, as tenacious as you are on this MB, I believe you would have tried to do a better job than Filo has.:tiphat:
 
thunderkyss said:
I think teams that just draft QBs to draft QBs end up with Geno Smiths & Blake Bortles. I think/hope drafting Watson was because they see that rare thing most QBs dont have.

I'm not saying Watson has it, only that they think he does. & if they think that, drafting an OL in the first & a QB later is not the same. I know what the preseason numbers look like. But this is the long game.
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When has Ricky ever drafted for the long game?

What surprises me is since Ricky drafted Watson, you would think Bob/Ricky McNair would do everything they could to protect him. Sad thing is McNair didn't appear to have learned a thing from the Carr fiasco.

# Frustrating
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Su'a-Filo needs to sit and Mancz should start but in all honesty, I'm not completely certain that Allen shouldn't be the one who sits.
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I got my wish to see Mancz play with the 1's some and I wasn't impressed -- I didn't think he looked as good as Su'a'Filo and he gets pushed back in pass pro much more than Allen. But Allen looked terrible again -- he routinely doesn't sustain his blocks and his man often is in on the play or the one causing the pressure. Giacomini had a couple of breakdowns and I think that yesterday's game is more indicative of what we'll see out of him this year if he stays healthy -- average but better than last year IMO. To me, our biggest problem is Allen and depth.

All that said, I'm not quite as negative as most about our starting 5. I thought most of the pressure on Savage this week came from NO bringing an extra man and there was either no one in the backfield to block it or Tyler Ervin didn't pick it up very well -- he's a major liability in pass pro. Savage seemed to get the ball out ok under pressure but I would expect teams to bring a lot of pressure this year to test him/our OL. If BoB can focus the offense on short routes/quick throws I think we'll be ok. I'm just not confident that he will.
 
Max said:
I got my wish to see Mancz play with the 1's some and I wasn't impressed -- I didn't think he looked as good as Su'a'Filo and he gets pushed back in pass pro much more than Allen. But Allen looked terrible again -- he routinely doesn't sustain his blocks and his man often is in on the play or the one causing the pressure. Giacomini had a couple of breakdowns and I think that yesterday's game is more indicative of what we'll see out of him this year if he stays healthy -- average but better than last year IMO. To me, our biggest problem is Allen and depth.

All that said, I'm not quite as negative as most about our starting 5. I thought most of the pressure on Savage this week came from NO bringing an extra man and there was either no one in the backfield to block it or Tyler Ervin didn't pick it up very well -- he's a major liability in pass pro. Savage seemed to get the ball out ok under pressure but I would expect teams to bring a lot of pressure this year to test him/our OL. If BoB can focus the offense on short routes/quick throws I think we'll be ok. I'm just not confident that he will.
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This man gets it. Allen is our worst of the starting 5, which won't be improved if/when Brown comes back.

Ervin was a disaster in pass pro.
 
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amazing80 said:
This man gets it. Allen is our worst of the starting 5, which won't be improved if/when Brown comes back.

Ervin was a disaster in pass pro.
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I thought Lamm played well again yesterday (one thing to improve on for both him and Giacomini is they need to run with their man upfield and set a deeper pocket for Savage). Last week I posted that if Lamm kept up the type of play shown against NE that we wouldn't miss DB. I should have thought about the possibility of DB playing LT and Lamm RT or the demonstrated need for depth. I definitely want DB back but agree with those that think caving to him sets bad precedent.
 
thunderkyss said:
I know it's not perfect. But our offensive line was not as bad as you're eluding, last year. It makes sense that they'll do as well, maybe better this year. & while there is room for improvement, practically no one was saying, "Until they fix their OL..." they were saying, "Until the fix the QB issue..." & they've been saying it for three years.

There were crappy OTs in FA, crappy OTs in the draft... We got an OT who has history with our OL coach & we drafted an OT with excellent measureables. D'Onta Foreman looks like he's going to be a game changer... We need a feature back. I'm not a fan of Cunningham's, but I can see the thought process to adding him to our team.

We could have drafted OL (XSF, Nick Martin) & we'd still be complaining.
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Many including BL & Myself wanted RS to draft Robinson and Dawkins in rds 1/2. That's called investing in your OL. Get the OL in place then draft your QB. It's like McNair has learned nothing.
 
infantrycak said:
You're an OL Don Quixote. You don't want a warm and fuzzy about Watson.

Not just you. Far too many people have bought a horse and are now justifying at every opportunity. OL horse buyers by default become Savage riders.
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So because we dont want to see history repeat itself with the Texans at the QB position we are Savage riders. OK

I dont know how good Savage is. I do know any QB including Watson will never be what they could become behind this OL. Kinda like Carr
 
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amazing80 said:
The starting OL group is average for sure. This board likes to complain more than they should. The backups are terrible.
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How much is the appropriate amount to complain sir?

Especially when some saw this coming in the offseason and after the pathetic showing last night.
 
steelbtexan said:
So because we dont want to see history repeat itself with the Texans at the QB position we are Savage riders. OK

I dont know how good Savage is. I do know no QB including Watson will ever be what they could become behind this OL. Kinda like Carr
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So Savage is a lazy last in, 1st out, won't study, won't socialize with teammates QB?

Cuz otherwise history is not repeating itself no matter what the OL does.
 
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