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State of the O-line

AggiebyMarriage said:
The numbers say you are wrong:

Every person in the stadium knew the QBs was going to pass, and they sent 4 receivers out and only kept 6 blockers in time after time : 8 sacks on 103 drop backs. A sack percentage of 7.7%.

Much better protection than Deshaun got with max protection, the the running game was emphasized, and the pass was mixed in selectively, generating a sack percentage of 11%.
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So are you saying they didn't have better weapons and play calls and didn't get the ball out quicker?
 
over the last 3 games while Deshuan has been one of the least hit QBs, he is also averaging 22.7 attempts per game. The league average over that same span is 34. While I think this game plan is smart, so he doesn't end up like Carr 2.0, it is not sustainable in the modern NFL. Eventually we will play better offenses who will force us to keep pace, can this line hold up to 30, 35, 40 attempts? Will they be able to block with little to no help on some of those attempts? Because at some point we are going to have to send more than 2-3 guys out in routes.
 
QUARTERBACKHITSALLOWED IN THELAST 5 WEEKS (Weeks 7-11):

IND: 3
CLE: 8
NO: 9
HOU: 10
CHI, NE, SF: 13
CIN, MIN: 14
PIT: 15
TEN: 16
ATL, BAL, JAX, LAC, NYJ: 17
DEN: 18
BUF, DAL, NYG: 19
CAR, PHI: 20
ARI, MIA: 22
LAR, WAS: 24
GB, KC, SEA: 25
OAK: 27
DET, TB: 31

QUARTERBACKHITSPRODUCED IN THELAST 5 WEEKS (7-11):

KC: 31
LAR, PIT: 27
NO: 26
GB, WAS: 25
CHI: 23
ARI, DAL, MIN: 22
CAR, SEA, SF: 21
PHI: 20
HOU, LAC: 19
TB: 18
JAX, NYJ: 17
DEN: 16
BAL, BUF, CIN, NE: 15
TEN, NYG: 13
ATL, CLE, DET, MIA: 12
IND, OAK: 10
 
thunderkyss said:
Jared Goff & Patrick Mahomes saw more pressure last night than Watson did Sunday.
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AggiebyMarriage said:
My re-occurring thought throughout that game was "Good Lord how many TD's could Watson put up with either one of these O-lines."
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I was thinking how many TDs Watson could put up with that kind of creativity on offense. The roll outs, the play action, the route combinations.

Those receivers were getting open quick. The first quarter was practically all rhythm throwing for both QBs. The lines didn't have to hold long because the ball was getting out quick. Both teams respected the ahressiveness of the offensive play calling & responded accordingly.

That's not to say I think our OL is as good as either team or that i don't believe our OL needs to get better.




AggiebyMarriage said:
The entire problem with the Texan's offensive is with this god awful O-line that we are sticking out there every week.
.
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I wish they were able to start the same 5 guys on offense 5 weeks in a row. So far, I think we've managed 3 maybe 4 weeks.

Yes, I agree with your math & the sack rate & all that. That wasn't my point.

I'd like to see what talent is available in next years draft before I make up my mind in November. That's my point.
 
I'd like to see what talent is available in next years draft before I make up my mind in November. That's my point.[/QUOTE]

Then I would suggest you start watching some college ball and give us your thoughts.
 
Shishkabob said:
over the last 3 games while Deshuan has been one of the least hit QBs, he is also averaging 22.7 attempts per game. The league average over that same span is 34. While I think this game plan is smart, so he doesn't end up like Carr 2.0, it is not sustainable in the modern NFL. Eventually we will play better offenses who will force us to keep pace, can this line hold up to 30, 35, 40 attempts? Will they be able to block with little to no help on some of those attempts? Because at some point we are going to have to send more than 2-3 guys out in routes.
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Shouldn't our heralded defense be responsible for this as they get better and healthier going forward? We are averaging 24 ppg now and that should increase to at least 27 IMO regular season. Shouldn't our defense now allowing 20.5 maintain if not improve on that? A three to six point avg of defeat should be within our reach. Let's not overlook this game against Washington had multi-player sacks and that is huge.
 
badboy said:
Shouldn't our heralded defense be responsible for this as they get better and healthier going forward? We are averaging 24 ppg now and that should increase to at least 27 IMO regular season. Shouldn't our defense now allowing 20.5 maintain if not improve on that? A three to six point avg of defeat should be within our reach. Let's not overlook this game against Washington had multi-player sacks and that is huge.
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Yes the defense should improve as well. That's if there's no set backs. Knock on wood of course.
 
Shishkabob said:
over the last 3 games while Deshuan has been one of the least hit QBs, he is also averaging 22.7 attempts per game. The league average over that same span is 34. While I think this game plan is smart, so he doesn't end up like Carr 2.0, it is not sustainable in the modern NFL. Eventually we will play better offenses who will force us to keep pace, can this line hold up to 30, 35, 40 attempts? Will they be able to block with little to no help on some of those attempts? Because at some point we are going to have to send more than 2-3 guys out in routes.
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Only way this works, if O'Brien and the offense generate a lead first and then continue the onslaught. This plan doesn't have a chance in hell if the team is playing catch-up.....Watson would have a very tough day.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Only way this works, if O'Brien and the offense generate a lead first and then continue the onslaught. This plan doesn't have a chance in hell if the team is playing catch-up.....Watson would have a very tough day.
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Part of that is the receivers getting separation. Since Fuller went out the big play mainly disappeared. YAC has become extremely limited. I believe the o-line has gotten much better than where they began the season, it’s the other guys lining up outside that seems to have regressed...minus Hopkins, of course.
 
banned1976 said:
Part of that is the receivers getting separation. Since Fuller went out the big play mainly disappeared. YAC has become extremely limited. I believe the o-line has gotten much better than where they began the season, it’s the other guys lining up outside that seems to have regressed...minus Hopkins, of course.
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We have played 2 games since Fuller went down, one with a brand new DT as our #2, the second game we got Coutee back and utitlized him more. He ha 75 yard receiving, 66 of which came after the catch. Again though it's not really on the receivers, we are sending 2-3 guy out in routes, and maybe having someone leak late. Teams are rushing 4-5 guys on us, and sitting back playing coverage. So now you have multiple defenders on every receiver, hard to gain separation 1v1 against NFL talent, let alone 1v2 or 1v3. That is why I said what we are doing now is good for Watson's health, but won't be sustainable against better teams.
 
badboy said:
Shouldn't our heralded defense be responsible for this as they get better and healthier going forward? We are averaging 24 ppg now and that should increase to at least 27 IMO regular season. Shouldn't our defense now allowing 20.5 maintain if not improve on that? A three to six point avg of defeat should be within our reach. Let's not overlook this game against Washington had multi-player sacks and that is huge.
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Our defense should help our offense stay in it some, but so you think our defense is going to hold the Chiefs, Steelers, or healthy Patriots to under 24 points? Eventually our offense will have to drive and score consistently, this is the modern NFL our play style of late has worked against teams with bad offenses because we know they can't score consistently on our defense so we do just enough to not lose. Eventually we will have to do more, we have scored 20 points or less in 6 out of our 10 games. In the last 2 games we have scored 3 and 6 in the 2nd half, that will not get it done in the playoffs.
 
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I wish we all knew for sure how healthy DW4 is. With this line and his ribs, it could be smart what we are doing and hope he will be fully healed when we do play a better offense. It is not sexy, but maybe long term smart. It could be BOB just sucks too
 
banned1976 said:
Part of that is the receivers getting separation. Since Fuller went out the big play mainly disappeared. YAC has become extremely limited. I believe the o-line has gotten much better than where they began the season, it’s the other guys lining up outside that seems to have regressed...minus Hopkins, of course.
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I really don't understand why Keke is not used in Fullers role. He is very fast as well (4.43 Forty yard dash) and shifty. I'm thinking O'brien's play calling has regressed.
 
Shishkabob said:
We have played 2 games since Fuller went down, one with a brand new DT as our #2, the second game we got Coutee back and utitlized him more. He ha 75 yard receiving, 66 of which came after the catch. Again though it's not really on the receivers, we are sending 2-3 guy out in routes, and maybe having someone leak late. Teams are rushing 4-5 guys on us, and sitting back playing coverage. So now you have multiple defenders on every receiver, hard to gain separation 1v1 against NFL talent, let alone 1v2 or 1v3. That is why I said what we are doing now is good for Watson's health, but won't be sustainable against better teams.
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Seems like a good plan to me to keep Watson healthy, since they aren't winning a SB this yr anyways.
 
Texansballer74 said:
I really don't understand why Keke is not used in Fullers role. He is very fast as well (4.43 Forty yard dash) and shifty. I'm thinking O'brien's play calling has regressed.
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You do know he was a slot WR in college and hasn't played outside hardly at all. You can say well BOB should've coached him up, but it's kind of hard to teach a rookie a new position when he's been injured most of the season. Logic seems to be lacking in your world this morning.
 
steelbtexan said:
You do know he was a slot WR in college and hasn't played outside hardly at all. You can say well BOB should've coached him up, but it's kind of hard to teach a rookie a new position when he's been injured most of the season. Logic seems to be lacking in your world this morning.
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I did not say put him on the outside. I said send him deep sometimes. You do not have to line up outside to go deep. You do know that right. When I say Fuller role, I'm saying use his speed to stretch the field. And I'm pretty sure dude can run a stop and go or a deep post.

But hey I was just thinking outloud.

You and JB need to have a open mind sometimes.
 
Texansballer74 said:
I did not say put him on the outside. I said send him deep sometimes. You do not have to line up outside to go deep. You do know that right. When I say Fuller role, I'm saying use his speed to stretch the field. And I'm pretty sure dude can run a stop and go or a deep post.

But hey I was just thinking outloud.

You and JB need to have a open mind sometimes.
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The slot guy usually runs the quicker routes, think Welker. But you know more than I do.
 
steelbtexan said:
The slot guy usually runs the quicker routes, think Welker. But you know more than I do.
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Just because that's usually what happens doesn't mean you can't mix in things to shake it up. Doug Baldwin plays from the slot, but has been one of the better deep ball threats in recent years. Tyreek Hill, T.y. Hilton, OBJ, and many others have beaten teams deep from the slot position as well as the outside. Colleges have been using slot receivers as deep threats for a few years now, and we all know the NFL eventually adapts to the college game to accommodate the players coming into the league. It really wasn't an unreasonable or outlandish suggestion on 74's part. We need something to stretch the defense, letting Coutee go deep occasionally can do that
 
Shishkabob said:
Just because that's usually what happens doesn't mean you can't mix in things to shake it up. Doug Baldwin plays from the slot, but has been one of the better deep ball threats in recent years. Tyreek Hill, T.y. Hilton, OBJ, and many others have beaten teams deep from the slot position as well as the outside. Colleges have been using slot receivers as deep threats for a few years now, and we all know the NFL eventually adapts to the college game to accommodate the players coming into the league. It really wasn't an unreasonable or outlandish suggestion on 74's part. We need something to stretch the defense, letting Coutee go deep occasionally can do that
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How many games have those guys you listed played in the NFL vs Coutee? Coutee is still learning how to play the slot position in the NFL and overloading him at this point would be a mistake. IMHO
 
steelbtexan said:
How many games have those guys you listed played in the NFL vs Coutee? Coutee is still learning how to play the slot position in the NFL and overloading him at this point would be a mistake. IMHO
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If telling a receiver to run a deep post, or deep corner route is over loading him then he probably shouldn't be in the NFL. I'm not even saying make it a read for Coutee, just have it in there to some extent. Coutee ran his fair share of deep routes at Tech, he can handle it.
 
Texansballer74 said:
I did not say put him on the outside. I said send him deep sometimes. You do not have to line up outside to go deep. You do know that right. When I say Fuller role, I'm saying use his speed to stretch the field. And I'm pretty sure dude can run a stop and go or a deep post.

But hey I was just thinking outloud.

You and JB need to have a open mind sometimes.
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How did I get into that conversation?
 
Texansballer74 said:
I did not say put him on the outside. I said send him deep sometimes. You do not have to line up outside to go deep. You do know that right. When I say Fuller role, I'm saying use his speed to stretch the field. And I'm pretty sure dude can run a stop and go or a deep post.

But hey I was just thinking outloud.

You and JB need to have a open mind sometimes.
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Right I mean a fly pattern is pretty simple route - just run down the field along the sidline full tilt and a deep post is also a very easy pattern to execute.
 
steelbtexan said:
There was some pressure.

"But percentage wise not really that much"
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steelbtexaan: I am sorry but that statement is just FLAT WRONG.


The problem with the Texans Offense vs what we saw Monday Night, lies with the O-Line, NOT with BOB. Here are the numbers to back it up:


Football Outsiders Offensive Line Statistical Rankings for the 2018 Season (As of 11-20-18)

Pass protection Rankings

Team Rank Adjusted Sack Rate

KC 6 5.2%


LAR 10 5.7%


HOU 31 10.6%


The KC and LAR O-Lines have an Adjusted Sack Rate that is half of what the Texans God Awful O-Line have given up. And these numbers are with (as I have said before) with KC and LAR protecting with just the O-Line and 1 Back (6 protectors in all) and putting 4 Receivers out into patterns.

The Texans are protecting half as well, while Max Protecting (most of the time) with the O-Line, 2 TE's, and 1 RB (8 protectors in all), and putting only 2 Receivers out into patterns.

BOB has had to do this to keep Deshaun from ending up in a body cast. But what this means is our Offense ends up looking like we are driving a 1973 AMC Gremlin, while KC and the LAR look like they are driving 2018 Masaratti's.

BOB can change the play calling, change the RB, change the passing routes called. But none of those changes are going to fix this problem. BOB is calling what he can call, without getting Deshaun KILLED. Nothing is going to fix this fundamental problem until we upgrade the personnel on the O-Line.
 
steelbtexan said:
There was some pressure.

But percentage wise not really that much.
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Sorry: I am going to try this again without getting my columns screwed up.


steelbtexaan: I am sorry but that statement is just FLAT WRONG.


The problem with the Texans Offense vs what we saw Monday Night, lies with the O-Line, NOT with BOB. Here are the numbers to back it up:


Football Outsiders Offensive Line Statistical Rankings for the 2018 Season (As of 11-20-18)

Pass protection Rankings

Team / Rank / Adjusted Sack Rate

KC / 6 / 5.2%


LAR / 10 / 5.7%


HOU / 31 / 10.6%


The KC and LAR O-Lines have an Adjusted Sack Rate that is half of what the Texans God Awful O-Line have given up. And these numbers are with (as I have said before) with KC and LAR protecting with just the O-Line and 1 Back (6 protectors in all) and putting 4 Receivers out into patterns.

The Texans are protecting half as well, while Max Protecting (most of the time) with the O-Line, 2 TE's, and 1 RB (8 protectors in all), and putting only 2 Receivers out into patterns.

BOB has had to do this to keep Deshaun from ending up in a body cast. But what this means is our Offense ends up looking like we are driving a 1973 AMC Gremlin, while KC and the LAR look like they are driving 2018 Masaratti's.

BOB can change the play calling, change the RB, change the passing routes called. But none of those changes are going to fix this problem. BOB is calling what he can call, without getting Deshaun KILLED. Nothing is going to fix this fundamental problem until we upgrade the personnel on the O-Line.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
Sorry: I am going to try this again without getting my columns screwed up.


steelbtexaan: I am sorry but that statement is just FLAT WRONG.


The problem with the Texans Offense vs what we saw Monday Night, lies with the O-Line, NOT with BOB. Here are the numbers to back it up:


Football Outsiders Offensive Line Statistical Rankings for the 2018 Season (As of 11-20-18)

Pass protection Rankings

Team / Rank / Adjusted Sack Rate

KC / 6 / 5.2%


LAR / 10 / 5.7%


HOU / 31 / 10.6%


The KC and LAR O-Lines have an Adjusted Sack Rate that is half of what the Texans God Awful O-Line have given up. And these numbers are with (as I have said before) with KC and LAR protecting with just the O-Line and 1 Back (6 protectors in all) and putting 4 Receivers out into patterns.

The Texans are protecting half as well, while Max Protecting (most of the time) with the O-Line, 2 TE's, and 1 RB (8 protectors in all), and putting only 2 Receivers out into patterns.

BOB has had to do this to keep Deshaun from ending up in a body cast. But what this means is our Offense ends up looking like we are driving a 1973 AMC Gremlin, while KC and the LAR look like they are driving 2018 Masaratti's.

BOB can change the play calling, change the RB, change the passing routes called. But none of those changes are going to fix this problem. BOB is calling what he can call, without getting Deshaun KILLED. Nothing is going to fix this fundamental problem until we upgrade the personnel on the O-Line.
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in the quote you quoted him he was talking about KC and LA's olines. He said they gave up some pressures but percentage wise they did not give up nearly as much as the Texans, which your numbers confirm
 
Shishkabob said:
If telling a receiver to run a deep post, or deep corner route is over loading him then he probably shouldn't be in the NFL. I'm not even saying make it a read for Coutee, just have it in there to some extent. Coutee ran his fair share of deep routes at Tech, he can handle it.
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Agreed,

However this is a read offennse for the WR's.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
steelbtexaan: I am sorry but that statement is just FLAT WRONG.


The problem with the Texans Offense vs what we saw Monday Night, lies with the O-Line, NOT with BOB. Here are the numbers to back it up:


Football Outsiders Offensive Line Statistical Rankings for the 2018 Season (As of 11-20-18)

Pass protection Rankings

Team Rank Adjusted Sack Rate

KC 6 5.2%


LAR 10 5.7%


HOU 31 10.6%


The KC and LAR O-Lines have an Adjusted Sack Rate that is half of what the Texans God Awful O-Line have given up. And these numbers are with (as I have said before) with KC and LAR protecting with just the O-Line and 1 Back (6 protectors in all) and putting 4 Receivers out into patterns.

The Texans are protecting half as well, while Max Protecting (most of the time) with the O-Line, 2 TE's, and 1 RB (8 protectors in all), and putting only 2 Receivers out into patterns.

BOB has had to do this to keep Deshaun from ending up in a body cast. But what this means is our Offense ends up looking like we are driving a 1973 AMC Gremlin, while KC and the LAR look like they are driving 2018 Masaratti's.

BOB can change the play calling, change the RB, change the passing routes called. But none of those changes are going to fix this problem. BOB is calling what he can call, without getting Deshaun KILLED. Nothing is going to fix this fundamental problem until we upgrade the personnel on the O-Line.
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You must have miss understood me. This is exactly what I was trying to say without looking up all of the numbers.

Great post.
 
zshawn10 said:
Johnny Kinsley@Brickwallblitz

QUARTERBACK HITS ALLOWED IN THE LAST 5 WEEKS (Weeks 7-11):

IND: 3
CLE: 8
NO: 9
HOU: 10
CHI, NE, SF: 13
CIN, MIN: 14
PIT: 15
TEN: 16
ATL, BAL, JAX, LAC, NYJ: 17
DEN: 18
BUF, DAL, NYG: 19
CAR, PHI: 20
ARI, MIA: 22
LAR, WAS: 24
GB, KC, SEA: 25
OAK: 27
DET, TB: 31


900
4:51 PM - Nov 20, 2018
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These numbers don't surprise me since they are using max protect to keep Watson from getting killed.

A smart move by BOB. IMHO
 
Gents have you guys noticed ever since Fuller went down, the passing attempts have gone down too. Obrien is not even looking for the deep bomb anymore. Another thing, Wide receivers are not getting wide open like Fuller did or getting wide open because of Fuller.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Gents have you guys noticed ever since Fuller went down, the passing attempts have gone down too. Obrien is not even looking for the deep bomb anymore. Another thing, Wide receivers are not getting wide open like Fuller did or getting wide open because of Fuller.
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And yet most of the routes seem to be 15+ yards downfield... but much more 2 wr plays
 
One thing that would help out the OLine, running game, and deep passing game, is to establish a short passing game with more quick slants and crosses. If Watson starts getting the ball out of his hands faster, it will force the LB's to start dropping back in coverage more, which will open up the running game. Likewise, those quick slants and crosses will make the DB's start playing up, which will open up more opportunities downfield. Most of all, if Watson gets rid of the ball sooner, he will be hit less, and the OLine will look better because they won't have to hold their blocks as long. Watson does throw a lot of underneath stuff, but they are usually checkdowns after he has given up on passes downfield.
 
vtech9 said:
One thing that would help out the OLine, running game, and deep passing game, is to establish a short passing game with more quick slants and crosses. If Watson starts getting the ball out of his hands faster, it will force the LB's to start dropping back in coverage more, which will open up the running game. Likewise, those quick slants and crosses will make the DB's start playing up, which will open up more opportunities downfield. Most of all, if Watson gets rid of the ball sooner, he will be hit less, and the OLine will look better because they won't have to hold their blocks as long. Watson does throw a lot of underneath stuff, but they are usually checkdowns after he has given up on passes downfield.
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From your type to OB's ears
 
Shishkabob said:
Our defense should help our offense stay in it some, but so you think our defense is going to hold the Chiefs, Steelers, or healthy Patriots to under 24 points? Eventually our offense will have to drive and score consistently, this is the modern NFL our play style of late has worked against teams with bad offenses because we know they can't score consistently on our defense so we do just enough to not lose. Eventually we will have to do more, we have scored 20 points or less in 6 out of our 10 games. In the last 2 games we have scored 3 and 6 in the 2nd half, that will not get it done in the playoffs.
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Don't see any of those on our schedule. Let's win out before we pick opponents we may or may not play after regular season. We are healthier with guys playing same positions for a bit. There's nothing to be done now. I want to see better game plan from coaches. There were opponents running freely in our backfield Sunday. This defense needs kick it up another gear.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Gents have you guys noticed ever since Fuller went down, the passing attempts have gone down too. Obrien is not even looking for the deep bomb anymore. Another thing, Wide receivers are not getting wide open like Fuller did or getting wide open because of Fuller.
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That has a lot less to do with it than the beating he took over the course of the first 6 games, especially the dallas game and buffalo game.

Fuller went down at the end of the Miami game, in which we attempted 20 passes, he had 24 attempts against Jacksonville the game before. He has had 24 in each game since Fuller went down, but by that time you could already see the switch in the offense. Miami game was just an abnormality score wise because of the big plays we got on them all night in the run and pass game. If DW4 could sit back there 35-40 times a game without getting killed I think OB would let him do it if that was the best way to attack that team.
 
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