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State of the O-line

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Wait.....How do you identify pre snap a DB coming on a delayed stunt? If you identify him as a potential rusher, isn't everyone a potential rusher? This OL struggles enough with the man directly in front of them. Now we want to complicate the matter by telling them that either safety might be a potential rusher?
Basically Vaccaro was the "MLB" in that defensive set ... This had to be a failure pre snap , they overlooked him being a DB instead of being "The Mike" and didn't make the right protection call .... Again , you can see Fulton recognize it but Martin didn't.

Yes , Martin has had a few plays where he's helping when he should be blocking someone else instead .... Delay's and stunts kill this bunch.

I recall a free rusher right up the middle on a delay not too long ago.
I don't recall if it was a similar situation with a nickel / dime package with the rusher being a safety or if it was a base defense LBer ... but Martin was the individual who had to make the critical decision.

Edit - the play you posted was the one I was thinking of .... Chiefs LBer Dorian O'Daniel #44.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Basically Vaccaro was the "MLB" in that defensive set ... This had to be a failure pre snap , they overlooked him being a DB instead of being "The Mike" and didn't make the right protection call .... Again , you can see Fulton recognize it but Martin didn't.

Yes , Martin has had a few plays where he's helping when he should be blocking someone else instead .... Delay's and stunts kill this bunch.

I recall a free rusher right up the middle on a delay not too long ago.
I don't recall if it was a similar situation with a nickel / dime package with the rusher being a safety or if it was a base defense LBer ... but Martin was the individual who had to make the critical decision.

Edit - the play you posted was the one I was thinking of .... Chiefs LBer Dorian O'Daniel #44.
Do you agree that Martin does not need the extra task of setting or calling the oline? I go back to Watt saying after game 5 that guys need to take care of their assignment before doing more.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
1st, let me say it is inconceivable that a talented freak of nature can come off the end like that, unblocked, unchipped & not get a QB hit.

2nd, first I'm going to lay blame on #4. Neither the TE, the Hback or the RT believed they were responsible for said freak of nature coming off the end. It is plausible Watson noticed the blitz, called for the HB to be the hot read where the TE or the RT should block the DE. But he forgot to say whatever he was supposed to say to tell the TE/HB/RT to block the DE.

I honestly have no idea how that communication is supposed to go, but I think it's obvious it didn't go the way it was supposed to.

As far as Fulton & Martin, looks like Fulton sees the issue, but can't get around Martin who looks like he's expecting to pass off the DT. Again, at least two people on the wrong page.
This was a disguised safety blitz. Are you suggesting DW4 should recognize the safety as a potential blitzer, then notify someone... "Hey, if that guy blitzes, you get him." That's how it's supposed to go?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Identify presnap the potential rusher.

What's the down and distance on this play ?

That's SS Kenny Vaccaro on the delayed stunt .... Must have been 2nd or 3rd and + with the Titans in a nickel / dime package as #31 Kevin Byard is also up in the box.

Either of them could have been the 4th rusher ... Beasley (#44) actually drops into coverage after initially selling the rush as Vaccaro blows by Martin / Kelemete .... That was a pretty well designed & executed stunt.

They essentially lost 5 on 4 ....
error.
Delete.
 
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Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Looks like he expected Fulton to pick up his man. They're thinking too much out there

Almost impossible for Fulton to pick up that guy - He can't go thru or around Martin .... Fulton has to take the guy Martin is engaged with and Martin has to step over - Half of that happened , the other half didn't.


This is the third year of the Fulton / Martin combo at RG and C. If they haven't figured out how to pass off a defender by now .... It aint happening or Devlin just isn't preparing them .... That's interior OL 102.
That's the kinda stuff you'd expect from a rookie or a new pair inside.

I'd really like to see Fulton at center and Scharping at RG .... Just to see how they fit.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
This was a disguised safety blitz. Are you suggesting DW4 should recognize the safety as a potential blitzer, then notify someone... "Hey, if that guy blitzes, you get him." That's how it's supposed to go?

It really isn't even a blitz technically .... They only send 4 as #44 shows rush initially then drops into coverage.
Watch him take two steps , give Kelemete a shove and use that momentum to change direction and drop into center field & by that time Vaccaro is even with Kelemete.

Watching it again , it appears Fulton gives Martin a shove in the right direction but its too little too late .... ROFL.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
Almost impossible for Fulton to pick up that guy - He can't go thru or around Martin .... Fulton has to take the guy Martin is engaged with and Martin has to step over - Half of that happened , the other half didn't.
No, Fulton is lined up to the right of Martin with the spacing a bit too far. Martin is initially in front of and blocking the LB, then releases him to the right like he expects Fulton to pick him up but Fulton is acting like he wants to help Howard. Poorly coached even for the 1st game of the year
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
This was a disguised safety blitz. Are you suggesting DW4 should recognize the safety as a potential blitzer, then notify someone... "Hey, if that guy blitzes, you get him." That's how it's supposed to go?

Once they identify the safety as the MIKE, whoever that is responsible for the MIKE in pass pro should take him on.
Sometimes, the offense will let him in free, then it's the responsibility of the QB to throw the hot route.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
No, Fulton is lined up to the right of Martin with the spacing a bit too far. Martin is initially in front of and blocking the LB, then releases him to the right like he expects Fulton to pick him up but Fulton is acting like he wants to help Howard. Poorly coached even for the 1st game of the year

Which play are you talking about - Chiefs or Titans ? I think we're talking about two different plays ...

error.
Delete.
:corrosion:


Cleverly disguised wasn't it ?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
:corrosion:

Cleverly disguised wasn't it ?
It was just my eyes; just got up after a little nap.
Saw that earlier, but forgot about it completely.
Was watching on a tiny Android phone to begin with.

But, yeah, it was a cleverly disguised 4-man zone blitz.

Kelemete recognized it as his man dropped back; Martin never did.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I was talking about the Chiefs clip he posted that I quoted

That's what I thought ... somehow I was thinking we were on the Titans delayed stunt. Watch that one again and its pretty clear Fulton recognized it and even shoved Martin in the right direction .... comical.

On the Chiefs play - You could be right in the assumption he expected Fulton to take him
but it doesn't really make much sense to me. I don't know what the hell he was thinking - That guy was right in front of him.

Why he helped on Scharping's man is beyond me .... that battle was a wash while Howard was losing on the outside (not that he can see that).

That's the whole idea of stunts and delays tho .... to confuse the OL. Martin is sure confused an awful lot ....

Can we get Fulton at Center ?!
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
This was a disguised safety blitz. Are you suggesting DW4 should recognize the safety as a potential blitzer, then notify someone... "Hey, if that guy blitzes, you get him." That's how it's supposed to go?
Pretty much.

But the more damming evidence of a communication issue is the free rusher #99. TE & HBack run right past him & the RT initially looks to his left.

It's as if no one planned to block him pre-snap. Luckily Howard was quick enough to recover before the generational talent could turn the corner.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
Pretty much.

But the more damming evidence of a communication issue is the free rusher #99. TE & HBack run right past him & the RT initially looks to his left.

It's as if no one planned to block him pre-snap. Luckily Howard was quick enough to recover before the generational talent could turn the corner.
Oh. I get it now. All this time, I thought you were confusing the safety for this "freak of nature DE". Haha
 

justmy2cents

Rookie
Contributor's Club
Anyone seen Tytus Howard's PFF Grade for this game?
Don't know …. finally subscribed last year, only to find I didn't need it that often …. cancelled. Surely wish I had it …. but only on rare occasion. Like just now, when I would like to know the skinny on all five !
TK …. do you feel like our interior 3 are not talented enough to be our future ? Did they over rate Scharping ? What would you do from here ? We can't just sit around and watch Watson grow old …. and probably decrepit ! I know we have so many needs …. but don't you have to begin with offensive line and QB ?
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
TK …. do you feel like our interior 3 are not talented enough to be our future ? Did they over rate Scharping ? What would you do from here ? We can't just sit around and watch Watson grow old …. and probably decrepit ! I know we have so many needs …. but don't you have to begin with offensive line and QB ?
I saw Nick Martin getting good pass blocking grades last year & figured I'd give him a watch. I noticed he is often blocking someone one on one. Which I rarely saw with Chris Myers or Ben Jones.

imo, it makes sense the Center should get some initial help as he's having to snap the ball.

I'm sure there are some centers out there who don't need the help & we're paying Martin as if he's one of them...

Scharping, I honestly didn't see what led to his benching.

Fulton, I've never said anything good about Fulton.
 

Lucky

A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood
Staff member
Scharping, I honestly didn't see what led to his benching.
He looked totally lost in the Chiefs game. He wasn’t the only one. But, you can’t bench everyone.

I haven’t done a play by play evaluation of everyone on the line or the team. But no one on the offense line has stood out in a positive manner. If I could point to one negative aspect of the O’Brien era (which we are still in), it’s the poor to middling o-line play. And Mike Devlin has been the ring leader since nearly the beginning. No one has gotten significantly better under his coaching. Some have regressed. Like Scharping. Replacing this guy is almost as important as getting a new head coach.
 

justmy2cents

Rookie
Contributor's Club
I saw Nick Martin getting good pass blocking grades last year & figured I'd give him a watch. I noticed he is often blocking someone one on one. Which I rarely saw with Chris Myers or Ben Jones.

imo, it makes sense the Center should get some initial help as he's having to snap the ball.

I'm sure there are some centers out there who don't need the help & we're paying Martin as if he's one of them...

Scharping, I honestly didn't see what led to his benching.

Fulton, I've never said anything good about Fulton.

Nor have I …. I don't think Kelemete is starting caliber either. At 6'3" -301, I would think he would be a better fit in a ZBS. Back to Scharping, I hope they are coaching the hell out of him …. cause he's a beast …. and smart …. he has look to me, of a right guard. They need to do something to the line and find a competent RB …. the Johnsons are woefully inadequate and Watson is gonna get killed !
 

Earl34

All Pro
I don't have an opinion on PFF's grading, but looking at their grades, it shouldn't be a surprise the Scharping got benched. I wonder how does this OL grades compare to the Chiefs, Ravens, Packers, Seahawks, Bills and Titans.

Tunsil 84.8
Kelemete 58.9
Scharping 49.1
Martin 63.9
Fulton 56.7
Howard 58.9
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I don't have an opinion on PFF's grading, but looking at their grades, it shouldn't be a surprise the Scharping got benched. I wonder how does this OL grades compare to the Chiefs, Ravens, Packers, Seahawks, Bills and Titans.

Tunsil 84.8
Kelemete 58.9
Scharping 49.1
Martin 63.9
Fulton 56.7
Howard 58.9
Martin only gets a better grade because the opponents like to leave him alone so he can watch the sky for rain.
 

justmy2cents

Rookie
Contributor's Club
I don't have an opinion on PFF's grading, but looking at their grades, it shouldn't be a surprise the Scharping got benched. I wonder how does this OL grades compare to the Chiefs, Ravens, Packers, Seahawks, Bills and Titans.

Tunsil 84.8
Kelemete 58.9
Scharping 49.1
Martin 63.9
Fulton 56.7
Howard 58.9

Thanks for that Earl …. I think ! Well it's good to know that my eyes haven't been lying to me. What's not good is - what I for see them doing about it !
see
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame

amazing80

Fire Billy O
I don't believe Tunsil play at the level of the highest paid LT.
Well, that's not how contracts work, so people should stop saying things like that. He was due up next and is a top 3 LT in the league, he got paid. The next LT will get paid more.

We should be complaining more about Whiney, Cunningham, Roby and the other failures who aren't contributing enough
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Well, that's not how contracts work, so people should stop saying things like that. He was due up next and is a top 3 LT in the league, he got paid. The next LT will get paid more.

We should be complaining more about Whiney, Cunningham, Roby and the other failures who aren't contributing enough
Actually my beef is with steelb.
He keeps referring to Watson as Mr. $160M man and complains about his play while singing the Tunsil trade.

If he's OK with Tunsil's contract, he should not complain about Watson's.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Actually my beef is with steelb.
He keeps referring to Watson as Mr. $160M man and complains about his play while singing the Tunsil trade.

If he's OK with Tunsil's contract, he should not complain about Watson's.
What QB has won a SB making more than 13.2 percent of the cap?

I'll wait for your response.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
What QB has won a SB making more than 13.2 percent of the cap?

I'll wait for your response.
When Brady won it in 2019, his cap space might be under 11%, but the Pats can afford to pay him a whole lot more as they still had nearly 22% of the cap space left to spend.

The Colts may spend only $25M on Rivers, but they still have to pay Brissett more than 21M, making their cap spending on QBs over 20%.
Yet they still have nearly 15% of their cap to spare.
And look how competitive they are.
I had said before the season that they have the most solid roster in the AFC South, and they do it right, building their roster through the draft.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
That seems quite novel to me....think the Texans and Cal could ever wrap their brains around this endeavor?
So this answer is never and BTW the Colts won't be winning the SB this year either. Nice attempt to use stats in a way to avoid the question I asked you.

You lost all creditability when it comes to trying to use stats when it comes to your debating position when you said Reader had a good game after the Bengals gave up over 200 yrs on the ground vs the Brown's.


What I can't figure out is if you are intentionally doing this or if you are just a guy who doesn't know what he's looking at. I'm hoping it's the latter.
 

banned1976

All Pro
Yes, in the defense is terrible thread.

My overarching thought on the offensive line is that it was constructed haphazardly, in a very reactive manner. And they have been poorly coached. That said, I feel like they're an average group that will get better if they are coached better. I firmly believe they have the pieces there to be a top ten line.

It's not easy blocking for a QB like Watson. And I don't mean that as a criticism of Watson, it's just that his style in the backfield lends itself to confusion from the linemen because they never know exactly where he's going to end up. So whoever comes in next year, from the HC to the line coach (this includes the OC, TE, RB and QB coaches), they all have to be on the same page. Now it looks like 4 completely separate groups with little communication. There appears to be no cohesiveness. You can't have that with this QB.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Yes, in the defense is terrible thread.

My overarching thought on the offensive line is that it was constructed haphazardly, in a very reactive manner. And they have been poorly coached. That said, I feel like they're an average group that will get better if they are coached better. I firmly believe they have the pieces there to be a top ten line.

It's not easy blocking for a QB like Watson. And I don't mean that as a criticism of Watson, it's just that his style in the backfield lends itself to confusion from the linemen because they never know exactly where he's going to end up. So whoever comes in next year, from the HC to the line coach (this includes the OC, TE, RB and QB coaches), they all have to be on the same page. Now it looks like 4 completely separate groups with little communication. There appears to be no cohesiveness. You can't have that with this QB.
Watson gets a bad rap from his rooki year in 2017.
Check out his time to throw (TT) (2.82) in 2020
That's faster than Mahomes and Wilson, etc.

How about 2019; same time.
same as Mahomes and faster than Wilson, Rodgers, Tannehill, etc.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
So this answer is never and BTW the Colts won't be winning the SB this year either. Nice attempt to use stats in a way to avoid the question I asked you.

You lost all creditability when it comes to trying to use stats when it comes to your debating position when you said Reader had a good game after the Bengals gave up over 200 yrs on the ground vs the Brown's.


What I can't figure out is if you are intentionally doing this or if you are just a guy who doesn't know what he's looking at. I'm hoping it's the latter.
So it's not possible for Tunsil to play like a top 10 LT when the Texans ranked in the last quartet in offensive scoring after the first 4 games?
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
What QB has won a SB making more than 13.2 percent of the cap?

I'll wait for your response.
Peyton's salary might be 17.5M in 2015, but that was only because the Broncos had restructured his contract a year or two earlier.
They carried forward a 2.5M dead cap for Manning in 2016.
When including that part, the 20M total spent on Manning would have been nearly 14% of the cap space set at $143.23M
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Yes, in the defense is terrible thread.

My overarching thought on the offensive line is that it was constructed haphazardly, in a very reactive manner. And they have been poorly coached. That said, I feel like they're an average group that will get better if they are coached better. I firmly believe they have the pieces there to be a top ten line.

It's not easy blocking for a QB like Watson. And I don't mean that as a criticism of Watson, it's just that his style in the backfield lends itself to confusion from the linemen because they never know exactly where he's going to end up. So whoever comes in next year, from the HC to the line coach (this includes the OC, TE, RB and QB coaches), they all have to be on the same page. Now it looks like 4 completely separate groups with little communication. There appears to be no cohesiveness. You can't have that with this QB.
I don't know if it was haphazardly put together. Just poorly coached. I don't know that cohesiveness can help with what you're describing. I can't hurt though.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
What QB has won a SB making more than 13.2 percent of the cap?

I'll wait for your response.
Same thing goes for Brady in 2018, when his cap space only showed as 22M against a total cap of $177.2M

What is not shown is that the Pats had to eat $13.5M in dead cap this year when Brady left for the Buccs.

If you only take 6.5M of that 13.5 and add it to the cap charge in 2018, that would bring it up to 28.5M and that's more than 16% of the total cap space.
 


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