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[Sources] OB & Smith relationship has worsened
- Thread starter xtruroyaltyx
- Start date
Gary wasn't fired because of the 2-14 season roster. He was fired because he couldn't follow orders. Had he not put Schaub back in the game he'd be our HC today.
I'd let OB be the HC and GM. That makes it pretty easy to place the blame or praise.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
So the 11 game losing streak had nothing to do with Kubiak's firing? It was all about his boy Schaub versus Bob's boy Keenum? Whom McNair OK's trading away the following season? Not gonna lie, there is a lot of tinfoil in that opinion.
Evidently, you only read what you want to read.
It's simple -
Who has ultimate say on the roster and who gets signed = Rick Smith
Who is active on gameday and their overall performance within the system = Bill O'Brien
I'm under no illusions on how "good" BoB is right now. Crennel's crew has to carry the load. The problem is when ownership paints you into a corner on the roster. Signing the giraffe seemed like a decent move in the off-season, but it hasn't worked out. Think there's no pressure to play him, despite his lackluster performance? (lackluster is being generous) McNair applied the pressure to keep trying with Carr, and to put Keenum in...is it really a big stretch to imagine the pressure he's applied to make Oz work out?
The BoB offense has only looked "decent" when it was being run by either A) Guys who learned it in New England, or...B) A Harvard Grad. It's one of those things that works really great if everyone makes smart decisions and is on the same page. Otherwise it looks like hell.
BoB is fully responsible for overworking our only full-featured RB straight to injury. Rick Smith is responsible for our depleted O-line situation. Even BoB can't coach an O-Line to suck as bad as the one I've seen the last few weeks. We simply don't have adequate personnel to protect guys who are still learning this offense.
It's honestly amusing as hell that you only see "mismanagement" at the HC level. A great cook can make something "good" with substandard ingredients. A decent cook will make something "acceptable" with those same ingredients. 9-7 is decent with the injury and roster situation we have. We really need to replace the asshole who keeps buying the Chinese knock-off version of real NFL players though.
DX-TEX
#TomSavageDontCare
Current director player personnel Brian Gaine would be promoted. Rumored to have been O'Briens choice as GM
Right, except for that part about the 53 - that's Rick's call. Sure, BoB and rick might agree on 80% of the cuts, but when they disagree, Rick has deciding vote. There's a reason McNair says they've never "come to him" for a decision...BoB knows which way the wind is blowing.
Not according to what I've read.
Everywhere I read, it says O' Brien has final say on the 53- man roster.
http://www.espn.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/5332/obriens-power-over-the-53-man-roster
https://www.google.com/amp/houston....houston-texans-hire-the-wrong-head-coach/amp/
Your reading comprehension is usually better than that. I didn't mention Keenum at all. it was about following orders. McNair didn't care about the outcome of that game, we were on an 11 game skid.
Maybe they were evaluating Keenum, the way he handled the situation, or the rest of the team in a no win situation (Kobayashi Maru)... who knows. McNair was looking towards the future. Kubiak was treading water. & that was just the straw that broke the Camel's back.
Evidently, I read places other than everywhere.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ith-have-never-come-to-him-with-disagreement/
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10237575/houston-texans-introduce-new-coach-bill-obrien
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/spo...-remains-top-6752191.php?t=6058647962438d9cbb
I too have read that it's supposedly in BoB's contract, but that seems to fly in the face of statements McNair has made regarding him being the "tiebreaker".
To me, I read it as mostly off-season stuffs.
I'm sure when Smith did the scouting on all the QBs at the time Osweiler came out of college, he had a dossier of every player available for the draft and of many players not eligible (for UDFA purpose.)
When McNair issued the order to find a "real" QB (which contradicted his thought a couple years ago - that they can contend for a SB without one), Smith and his scouting department would pull out all of those dossiers and selected a few options to ask for OB's opinion.
On Osweiler, he might have presented to O'Brien that the QB was under Gase (before Kubiak), so he had had experience of a system that is based on the principal concepts that O'Brien utilize for his offense.
If O'Brien still didn't like it, they would come to McNair.
(We don't know if they had to).
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Mr Tex made a similar post in another thread, but it's mostly proven untrue. You frequent the draft forums enough. Almost everyone wanted investment in the OL, I would say 90% wanted to draft a tackle atleast somewhere. A lot of people wanted a tackle in the 1st. Actually, when @Wolf6151 in late March said he would be interested in drafting Brown's replacement in the 1st, you said:
Wolf's idea wasn't abnormal on this board for that time period. If anything, you showed less interest in building the trenches than many others, although you did show interest. I'm not saying your idea was better or worse, just that it required less investment in the OL.
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I read that differently. Smith has final say on who we sign to the team. The 90+ guys we bring into camp & the scout team throughout the year.
O'Brien will decide who survives the various cuts to get down to 53. O'brien will decide which 46 are active on gameday. He will also decide who will start, who will rotate in & out.
O'Brien will decide if a player will be promoted to the active roster from the practice squad.
Then I'm an idiot.
Bang bang chicken & shrimps...
That's the kind of personnel moves we can thank O'b for. Rick is dumb enough to bring that guy in, that's how willing he is to work with our HC. Chris Polk, Brian Hoyer... O'b needs to be just as flexible.
Redtexans
Waterboy
So your basis of opinion is over a 3rd string running back. Please.....
Be careful what you ask for. If Rick Smith runs BoB off, this team will be Non Competitive for the next 5 years. Are you ready for that? They will completely lose the Fan Base.
This is a competitive team, has been for while. We're lacking at the QB position. The last two years our GM worked with our HC to help him find a decent starting QB. Maybe not any true franchise possible candidates, but plenty who could've/should've be Tannehill, type don't embarrass your club candidates.
We signed Hoyer at the behest of Bill O'brien. We tried it his way. At the very least, O'b should try his best to make it work with Osweiler.
If Rick doesn't feel that O'brien is doing that, then he should take that to McNair. If McNair talks to O'b & he gets upset about it & want to leave, then he should be allowed to leave.
Redtexans
Waterboy
O'B is trying to find determine which QB gives us the best chance to win. They both Stink. He's not picking Savage over Osweiler. Savage played well against Jax and was given another shot. He sucked and then got hurt. SO now Osweiler is back in. There is no right choice. As far as Hoyer, for the most part, He played well thru out the season but he melted down in the WC game. Osweiler's contract is what is causing the rift between RS and O'b.
Yep. People tend to forget the first two regular seasons and how much improved the QBs were playing from their previous gigs. Both Fitz and Hoyer had the best years of their careers up to that point. Which is why I think there is something fundamentally funky about Brock, because O'Brien has been unable to coach him up and Brock is acting like a little bitch behind closed doors arguing with his head coach. If you're an established QB, then argue your point. Otherwise, if you're some unproven player, do what you're told and do your best to make it a success.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He has...14 games worth of trying to make it work with Oz...it ain't looking to hot of a pick up by Rick Smith...Ok so now you have to objectively look at each's body of work. both have failed at selecting a qb. But Rick Smith has a decade of largely failures in the draft & FA. BoB has 2 division titles in his 3 years here and has gotten some of the best work out of both of his hand picked guys as terrible as they were. This year with Ricky's hand picked guy Osweiler has been the worst year Bob has had with any qb he's ever had here......& that says alot considering who he has had here at the position since 2014.
Rick trying to tattle tail on BoB after his ineptness over the years is comical. If i was rick I couldn't even look in McNair's face & try to convince McNair of anyone else's failures with that putrid 2013 draft class under my belt.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He has...14 games worth of trying to make it work with Oz...it ain't looking to hot of a pick up by Rick Smith...Ok so now you have to objectively look at each's body of work. both have failed at selecting a qb. But Rick Smith has a decade of largely failures in the draft & FA. BoB has 2 division titles in his 3 years here and has gotten some of the best work out of both of his hand picked guys as terrible as they were. This year with Ricky's hand picked guy Osweiler has been the worst year Bob has had with any qb he's ever had here......& that says alot considering who he has had here at the position since 2014.
Rick trying to tattle tail on BoB after his ineptness over the years is comical. If i was rick I couldn't even look in McNair's face & try to convince McNair of anyone else's failures with that putrid 2013 draft class under my belt.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Fair enough. There has always been the Schaub v. Keenum angle around this place. Assumed the same.
Texian
Hall of Fame
The common denominator and measuring stick for degrees of success for all of O'Brien's Texans QBs is DeAndre Hopkins.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/15795/deandre-hopkins
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Yep, and he's been a non-factor this year with Osweiler. When Savage entered the Jax game, guess which WR suddenly came alive?
Yeah, but look at how productive those TEs have become!
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
I never said he is the only one responsible. But Rick Smith's sorry ass wasn't propped up as a savior like Bill O'Brien was and is.
9-7 means **** when this team should be putting up 13-3 and 14-2 if not for the Game Prep King's GameDay Failures.
They should all commit seppuku. This franchise sucks.
And I like this empty threat about "running off Bill O'Brien will leave us uncompetitive for 5 years" as if we're even competitive even at ******* all for the last 3 years. Oh but "doesn't matter Brian AFC South champs two years in a row Brian" is the prevailing attitude of this ********** and his cult.
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Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
That's dead wrong, but whether you agree or not its a total unsubstantiated statement on your part. Hardly ever in the history of the NFL has any coach ever survived a 2-14 type of season, so that alone makes that theory pretty hard to call logical. If it was his first or 2nd season here, that would be more understanding, but not in his 8th season after they had high expectations going into the season. Bob was almost forced to fire Gary after going 6-10 in year 5, but gave him one more shot and Wade's D turned that around, but going right back to a 2-14 type of season where the entire team crumbled the year before right before the playoffs when they had been 10-1 was a huge sign. The resistance to keep Schaub out of there was just another scoop that Gary made with his shovel.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
where r u getting 13-3 14-2 records from? There's been next to 0 reason why anyone here should've expected that from them at any point under BoB.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
No one propped him up as any savior. He was just a new HC that got hired like the rest of the 5 or 6 that do in each off season. He hadn't been a HC before, so no one gave him incredible expectations like you are trying to claim here. This is hyperbole at its best.
You mean a fairly good QB? That would be a rationale argument. OB may have done a poor job scheming wise on offense, but his QB he had shoved down his throat did a much more terrible job than anyone imagined he could have done.
Once again, no one said that. Another attempt by you to argue against something that doesn't exist. No one has even thought that far, but it doesn't look good for a franchise that would run off a consecutive winning coach after struggling with previous regimes. You may hate OB and want him dead, but he'll very likely have other teams interested in hiring him as a HC right away. That doesn't go well with your argument.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Every time he comes in here, he goes off on some anti OB tirade filled with curse words and hyperbolic narratives that haven't really ever existed.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
So it looks like sides are being chosen in here....
IF it's on or the other I'd have to lean OB....mostly because I just want to try something different.
And I'm not even sold on OB at all.
IF it's on or the other I'd have to lean OB....mostly because I just want to try something different.
And I'm not even sold on OB at all.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well personally I don't see how it can be on anyone other than Smith. He should have been fired along with Kubiak. He wasn't and we now have worse problems involving him than we ever have. He never should have been hired in the first place, and it was the most backwards job structure I think I had ever seen with a HC choosing his boss. If Smith isn't out of here, then you have another HC who has to come in here and deal with this dysfunctional management in this franchise and he'll have it pretty bad working here. Smith is a disease that keeps spreading here.
I don't like O'B or Rick Smith. I would rather keep Crennel and Vrabel and fire both Smith and O'B.
Maybe we can get someone who knows how to run an NFL offense.
I don't know what the rift is about, until I hear different I'm thinking Savage had a concussion & nobody is forcing anybody on anyone.
My post wasn't about Savage or Osweiler, it's more about questionin how well O'b is developing a young QB... doesn't really matter which one.
My argument is more in line with questioning his play calling.
For all we know, Smith had been dropping OC names on O'b the last two seasons & that's the source of the rift.
If we're going to be objective about it, Rick Smith has provided the talent to consistently field a top 5 defense under two DCs, a top 10 offense over several years, a top 10 rushing attack for the better part of the last five years, a league leading rushing leader, a league leading passers, a league leading receiver, and a crap load of pro bowlers.
If we want to be objective about it.
Who had the best draft of 2013?
As far as O'b & 14 games trying to make Brock a pro QB... at first, I thought he was sabotaging Osweiler, like he did Mallett. But after seeing what happened with Savage, I realize he doesn't know how to bring a QB along. I see very few routes designed to get players wide open. Go watch Dak, or Carr, or even Aaron Rodgers. The vast majority of their passes are to players who are WTF open. More so for DAK & Carr. Sure, there are some precision dimes being dropped (more so for Rodgers), but most of the time... WTF open.
We're asking a guy with 7 starts (at the beginning of the season) to be very accurate on where he places the ball. That's difficult for a 10 year veteran. I can see why Fitz did better. And if Osweiler was as mobile as Hoyer maybe he would have done better. But Mallett, Savage, Osweiler, young drop back passers... they're going to look like crap for a while in a milk the clock, run the ball on first & second down offense.
They all look pretty good when you speed up the game, mix in some easy throws, stack recievers, match TEs on LBs... so why don't we do more of it? Mix it in... after a first down, hurry it up. Slow down after a couple of plays, speed it up again. There are things O'b could do that would help both Osweiler or Savage. IMO of course.
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I'm with you on the last part. BoB isn't irreplaceable by any means.
I think the change was more with O'b & the play calling. @Jacksonville in the up tempo offense for the second half, Hopkins was schemed open & targeted a lot. Same thing second half of the Titans game.
Hopkins only has two 100 yard games this season, that game against Tennessee, and week 2 against the Chiefs. Both games QB'd by Osweiler.
Don't take this post as pro Osweiler. My main point is that the play calling changed.
I think McNair should hire an OC for O'b, just like he hired Wade for Kubiak.
Edit: But I also think we're winning the Super Bowl this year. So...
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I'd like that to happen myself, but I don't want Mcnair having anything to do with it.
Preferably I'd like O'b to do it. But if he doesnt, I want someone to step in & make it happen. I dang sure don't want Rick to do it.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well then we're stuck, because I want that too. I don't want Rick or Bob having anything to do with it though. Wade working out the way he did was dumb luck if you ask me.
Tired of all this passive aggressive playing things through the media bullsh*t ...
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Oh and for the record, McClain shot all of this down on the radio this morning. Said OB and Smith have a very good working relationship and there is no chance either are gone after this season. He said McNair would never let a winning coach leave. He said OB signed off on OS being here and if OB didn't want him there's no chance he would've been brought in.
He said most of these rumors are coming from national media who have no idea how the atexans operate.
Fwiw.
He said most of these rumors are coming from national media who have no idea how the atexans operate.
Fwiw.
So, Rick Smith gets two of the best DCs to ever walk the earth, and it's all his work? That's more than a stretch. As opposed to his TWO first-time NFL Head Coaches during his tenure. You need to tell me what your definition of "consistent" is though. I don't see all that many top 5's since 2006. (I count 3, and 4 years @ 22 or higher)
Top ten offense? - Haven't seen one since 2012.
Top ten rushing? - Top ten 4 times since Smith took over...same amount we were #20 or worse.
Best draft of 2013 - Definitely NOT the Texans. Graded a "D" three years later.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/05/05/nfl-draft-2013-grades-picks-analysis-results
I agree we were asking a lot out of Brock, but that's just a difficult system. As to whether he's being asked to make "tight" throws, Brock misses guys that are WTF open and tries to force it to his favorites no matter how tight they were covered. What's more, he'll rifle one that needs touch and underthrow one that gets picked. He's got the arm, he just doesn't have the brain...or a decent O-Line.
I fully agree that tempo seems to be a lost art to BoB. He also seems to lack feel for the "flow" of a game. (e.g. when your guys are confident, when they need a breather, etc. - as it affects timeouts. going for it on 4th, etc.)
In fairness, the best I ever saw the Texans Offense perform was during the comeback here against the Ravens in Primetime. Schaub was calling all his own plays and running full up-tempo. Kubiak never knew when to turn his QB loose.
(Rhetorical question) Why do I always feel that it's safer to bet AGAINST McClain 100% of the time?
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I believe all of it is true. It wasn't even the first time that we've heard about them having disagreements that got hasty.
McClain isn't exactly someone that most people believe is all that good at getting the real scoop any way. He hasn't had strong credibility in years. My guess is that he was encouraged to put out the fire, but its not going to work.
The idea that a HC would design a scheme to throw the ball to someone other than his best WR is silly. This same offensive scheme gave him plenty of passes the previous two seasons.
Hopkins has been targeted 151 times this season, but only has 78 catches. That says to everyone that the QB position is unable to get the ball to him, which is also what our eyes have been telling us all season. Osweiler has terrible accuracy. Almost half of the passes thrown to him were not caught, and most because they were simply uncatchable.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Just FYI to emphasize your post OB plainly said on one of his coaches shows a couple of weeks ago that Hop is the number 1 read on most passing plays.
They all suk'd the talent ran dry 3/4 through the 2nd round.