Source: Vick 'one of the heavyweights' in dogfighting

[Mr teX]

It's a silly generalization exacerbated by TV, but I think money can to significant extent buy justice. But there are political and other factors that substantially influence the process in either direction as well, much moreso than money, I would argue. If the government(s) at various levels are under pressure or want to make an example out of the criminal in question, odds might well be biased favorably toward a successful prosecution.

I agree, never underestimate the power of emotions & politics with cases like this. I mean, you see how this board is reacting to every piece of news coming out about this, & think back to the whole Enron debacle. Everywhere on the news & in newspapers there was the picture of the lady crying out on the stairs right in front of the big crooked "E" (no pun intended). Images & things of the sort are used to sway public opinion in which justice is then polluted IMO by the immense pressure on the prosecution to either act quickly in filing charges or to obtain a conviction.

I previously mocked poindexter for things he said about this case, but it looks like he's considered everything & that's the mark of a good lawyer.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

I agree, never underestimate the power of emotions & politics with cases like this. I mean, you see how this board is reacting to every piece of news coming out about this, & think back to the whole Enron debacle. Everywhere on the news & in newspapers there was the picture of the lady crying out on the stairs right in front of the big crooked "E" (no pun intended). Images & things of the sort are used to sway public opinion in which justice is then polluted IMO by the immense pressure on the prosecution to either act quickly in filing charges or to obtain a conviction.

I previously mocked poindexter for things he said about this case, but it looks like he's considered everything & that's the mark of a good lawyer.

I don't really care whether Vick spends time in jail or not. That doesn't affect me directly and its up to the courts which are pretty broken. Hope the lawyers enjoy the piles of cash they will receive.

What I do care about is having sadistic and inhumane dog butchers playing in the league that we all love, the NFL. Even if the corrupt court system lets him off the hook, the NFL needs to be their own arbiter and just kick him out of the league for a year if they think he was involved. If they don't, then it hurts the league and the league continues to be mired in off the field scandals and police blotter. If they bust a high profile big $$ like Vick, then it sends a message that money and lawyers can't stop the NFL from bringing down justice. The NFL isn't a right its a privilege....they can do whatever they want basically....

 

[Texan_Bill]

They both were--it was supposed to be a humorous opposite.

Okay.... My bad!

 

[Texan_Bill]

I don't really care whether Vick spends time in jail or not. That doesn't affect me directly and its up to the courts which are pretty broken. Hope the lawyers enjoy the piles of cash they will receive.

What I do care about is having sadistic and inhumane dog butchers playing in the league that we all love, the NFL. Even if the corrupt court system lets him off the hook, the NFL needs to be their own arbiter and just kick him out of the league for a year if they think he was involved. If they don't, then it hurts the league and the league continues to be mired in off the field scandals and police blotter. If they bust a high profile big $$ like Vick, then it sends a message that money and lawyers can't stop the NFL from bringing down justice. The NFL isn't a right its a privilege....they can do whatever they want basically....

Problem that Goddell would have is that he would open the League up to a major law-suit by Vick - if the system broke down (yet again) and Vick were not actually convicted of anything... It sucks because I am with you that the NFL should have no place or tolerance for sickos!!

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Problem that Goddell would have is that he would open the League up to a major law-suit by Vick - if the system broke down (yet again) and Vick were not actually convicted of anything... It sucks because I am with you that the NFL should have no place or tolerance for sickos!!

Pac Man wasn't convicted and he got suspended. There is a precedent. Goddell only has to use the language 'conduct detrimental to the league' to punish him. Vick's conduct has been detrimental to the league. It's that easy.

I mean even if you believe Vick's story that he knew nothing and that his cousin funded the whole thing, Vick is guilty in furnishing a home to a drug dealing dog murderer. Vick would be guilty of not monitoring assets that are clearly in his name and were clearly used for fightdog training, animal torture, and possibly hosting the highly illegal fights themselves...

personally, the guy can take his middle finger and stick it where the sun don't shine for all I care...just not in the NFL

 

[Mr teX]

I don't really care whether Vick spends time in jail or not. That doesn't affect me directly and its up to the courts which are pretty broken. Hope the lawyers enjoy the piles of cash they will receive.

What I do care about is having sadistic and inhumane dog butchers playing in the league that we all love, the NFL. Even if the corrupt court system lets him off the hook, the NFL needs to be their own arbiter and just kick him out of the league for a year if they think he was involved. If they don't, then it hurts the league and the league continues to be mired in off the field scandals and police blotter. If they bust a high profile big $$ like Vick, then it sends a message that money and lawyers can't stop the NFL from bringing down justice. The NFL isn't a right its a privilege....they can do whatever they want basically....

I think it's a foregone conclusion that Vick's getting @ least 12 games for his role in this regardless of how it turns out. I think that's the major reason the NFL security guys are involved; so when they present goodell with the facts & things they learned from the prosecution, lots of which we won't even get to hear, he'll make a decision on how many games. Will he hand something down before charges are filed? who knows, but i think Vick might as well hang up his cleats for the 2007 season.

 

[Texan_Bill]

Pac Man wasn't convicted and he got suspended. There is a precedent. Goddell only has to use the language 'conduct detrimental to the league' to punish him. Vick's conduct has been detrimental to the league. It's that easy.

I beleive that Pac-Man was considering whether or not to sue the league. I will go back and see if I can find an article about that.

I mean even if you believe Vick's story that he knew nothing and that his cousin funded the whole thing, Vick is guilty in furnishing a home to a drug dealing dog murderer. Vick would be guilty of not monitoring assets that are clearly in his name and were clearly used for fightdog training, animal torture, and possibly hosting the highly illegal fights themselves

Surely, no one in their right mind would beleive Vick's story... If the do I have the proverbial beach front property in Arizona for them.

personally, the guy can take his middle finger and stick it where the sun don't shine for all I care...just not in

Stick it and break it off.....

 

[Porky]

I don't really care whether Vick spends time in jail or not. That doesn't affect me directly and its up to the courts which are pretty broken. Hope the lawyers enjoy the piles of cash they will receive.

What I do care about is having sadistic and inhumane dog butchers playing in the league that we all love, the NFL.

I was very suspicious about Dominick Davis for a long time and still am even though he is no longer employed by the NFL. He has a pit bull tatoo, and is in the pit bull culture, and I think that is simply double speak for the dog fighting culture. I would be very curious to see what is out at Mr Davis err Mr. Williams or whatever his name is this week, house or property. I don't have any evidence, but I am curious what one might find.

And I don't think it ends there either. From what I have been reading, there is a culture of dog fighting in the NBA and NFL both. I think the NFL needs to come down like a ton of bricks on Vick and send a very strong message. If he is found guilty of anything at all regarding dog fighting, a lifetime suspension is in order. If he is indicted, but never found guilty, at least a full year suspension, if not 2 years, is in order, as the evidence exists and a not guilty doesn't mean he wasn't involved. No indictment, but still strong evidence - at least 8 game suspension.

 

[Mr teX]

I was very suspicious about Dominick Davis for a long time and still am even though he is no longer employed by the NFL. He has a pit bull tatoo, and is in the pit bull culture, and I think that is simply double speak for the dog fighting culture. I would be very curious to see what is out at Mr Davis err Mr. Williams or whatever his name is this week, house or property. I don't have any evidence, but I am curious what one might find.

And I don't think it ends there either. From what I have been reading, there is a culture of dog fighting in the NBA and NFL both. I think the NFL needs to come down like a ton of bricks on Vick and send a very strong message. If he is found guilty of anything at all regarding dog fighting, a lifetime suspension is in order. If he is indicted, but never found guilty, at least a full year suspension, if not 2 years, is in order, as the evidence exists and a not guilty doesn't mean he wasn't involved. No indictment, but still strong evidence - at least 8 game suspension.

Relax there buddy, i know your passionate about this subject, but the bolded is a bit harsh considering he's already going to get something for this just b/c it was his house.

 

[Mr. White]

Relax there buddy, i know your passionate about this subject, but the bolded is a bit harsh considering he's already going to get something for this just b/c it was his house.

Maybe so, but I think it's time for the NFL to start dealing with players that associate with criminals.

If he can, the cousin will try to take the fall for this thing unless some evidence turns up. That's why the NFL needs to hold Vick responsible no matter what the justice system determines. Too many athletes play the "guilt by association" card when they get into trouble.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Maybe so, but I think it's time for the NFL to start dealing with players that associate with criminals.

If he can, the cousin will try to take the fall for this thing unless some evidence turns up. That's why the NFL needs to hold Vick responsible no matter what the justice system determines. Too many athletes play the "guilt by association" card when they get into trouble.

yup and ironically the athlete ends up being the enabler of his 'crew' ultimately. there is having a great time and then there is perpetuating the 'thug life' mythos. there is the false perception that if you stop engaging in thug behavior and become a professional you would somehow lose credibility in the community and amongst your friends.

a true icon in the community would try and change things for his friends not just perpetuate the whole thing. you don't have to leave the hood but you need to improve the hood for the people around you because you have to give back. Look at what the real heroes of sports have done for their people. Jackie Robinson. Ali. Curt Flood. Arthur Ashe. Dikembe Mutombo. These guys are real heroes and something that every athlete should aspire to be....but it's just not the case...they are too busy emulating 50Cent, 2Pac, or Scarface/Godfather.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

another article on some of the informants implicating Vick from the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/05/31/0601vick.html

 

[SheTexan]

Seems like it would be pretty simple to check out the cousin's employment status. Pay check stubs, IRS, bank acounts, etc. Where did this guy get his money? Bet he don't have a 9-5 job!!

 

[TigerV1]

I do not have issue with that at all. what I have issue with him is he said he did not like the language in the warrent for searching for dog remains and then said that it would not be re-issued. Why not re-issue it with the right wording and find out all the facts of the case versus leaving some facts out.

Good point. I also dislike that. Ok, so the langueage was wrong, but re-word it then re-issue it. He seems to be playing a bit of a political game.

 

[Specnatz]

Seems like it would be pretty simple to check out the cousin's employment status. Pay check stubs, IRS, bank acounts, etc. Where did this guy get his money? Bet he don't have a 9-5 job!!

Exactly, but he could easily say it was from drug sales to take the wrap for his cousin.

 

[infantrycak]

Exactly, but he could easily say it was from drug sales to take the wrap for his cousin.

The contractor who built the house has already been interviewed and said Vick paid for the construction of the out back facilities.

 

[Mr teX]

Seems like it would be pretty simple to check out the cousin's employment status. Pay check stubs, IRS, bank acounts, etc. Where did this guy get his money? Bet he don't have a 9-5 job!!

It would be, The problem is everyone is so thirsty to crucify MV, this dude is flying in under the radar.

 

[Specnatz]

It would be, The problem is everyone is so thirsty to crucify MV, this dude is flying in under the radar.

Because he is one of the little guys. Do you want the DEA to go after the guy who sells pot and his supplier or the guy who is selling heroin and his supplier?

I will take the DEA going after the guy selling herion and his supplier any day of the week.

 

[swtbound07]

you people are all too jumpy on the suspension button. Vick will play, Vick will start, and Vick aint going to jail. That you guys want to crucify him for dogfighting is laughable, or lest we all forget that there is a mountain of evidence that ray lewis KILLED SOMEBODY and walked scott free and suits up every sunday. Vick is good for the NFL, good for ratings, and good for marketing. Give you 3 guesses as to the most sold jersey in the nfl. Nothing is going to happen to Mike Vick.

 

[Mr teX]

Because he is one of the little guys. Do you want the DEA to go after the guy who sells pot and his supplier or the guy who is selling heroin and his supplier?

I will take the DEA going after the guy selling herion and his supplier any day of the week.

he's not recognizable like his cousin is, that's the only reason he's being pushed to the back burner. You know how it is in this country. Winona Ryder got dinged for shoplifting & the media covered it like it was the OJ simpson trial. In reality it was only shoplifting & it happens everyday & twice on sunday. but b/c it was her.........

The same situation applies here somewhat. It's only b/c it's MV that this is as big as it is. if this were joe shmoe & his cousin....it's likely none of us would've even heard of this.

Like i've said b4, cops just don't make house calls to find a little joint or something, they only do that if they suspect a significant amount is present. Doesn't matter if its pot, coke or heroin.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

you people are all too jumpy on the suspension button. Vick will play, Vick will start, and Vick aint going to jail. That you guys want to crucify him for dogfighting is laughable, or lest we all forget that there is a mountain of evidence that ray lewis KILLED SOMEBODY and walked scott free and suits up every sunday. Vick is good for the NFL, good for ratings, and good for marketing. Give you 3 guesses as to the most sold jersey in the nfl. Nothing is going to happen to Mike Vick.

you do realize what dogfighting is, right?
you do realize that thousands of innocent dogs die to fulfill these sick losers subhuman thirst for blood,right?

pointing to Ray Lewis as an excuse for Vick or claiming that he killed someone (when evidence points that it was a member of crew) and then saying that having a dog murderer is good for the NFL is what is truly 'laughable'.

Vick is just another loser who has such an inflated view of himself that he has to 'play God' to feel good about himself. Never mind the fact that most of the time the dogs are put down after many fights....sometimes both dogs.

You may want to read a little bit about the dogfighting sub'culture' and what it takes to train a fighting dog. it takes rabbits, kittens, cats, small dogs, and other pitbulls.....oh and lots of pain, suffering, blood, death, and MONEY. Vick funded the thing and his butt is gonna get pinched and the league will be better for it. no doubt about it. dude can go hang out in the 'hood' with his convict brother for all I care. they are peas in a pod.

Maybe the reason the NFL is having so many problems right now is the fact that bad guys like Lewis and even the 'White House'-era Cowboys were left to run amuck for the most part. That was the Tagliabue era. Once police blotters became as prevalent as replays on ESPN the NFL decided to get tough. Notice how PacMan was kicked to the curb like a nickel skank by Goodell.

It's a new time and the paying public isn't going to support a scumbag like Vick who has to get his jollies from a bloodsport because he can't get his jollies from any females because his package is a ticking timebomb of herpes and gonorrhea(sic). Ron Mexico is just getting some karma thrown back at him....I don't care whether he goes to jail but he needs to be kicked from the league for a significant term based on the information being made public (at least 1 yr suspension)

 

[Porky]

you people are all too jumpy on the suspension button. Vick will play, Vick will start, and Vick aint going to jail. That you guys want to crucify him for dogfighting is laughable, or lest we all forget that there is a mountain of evidence that ray lewis KILLED SOMEBODY and walked scott free and suits up every sunday. Vick is good for the NFL, good for ratings, and good for marketing. Give you 3 guesses as to the most sold jersey in the nfl. Nothing is going to happen to Mike Vick.

What evidence exists that Ray Lewis killed someone? At best, it's sketchy as to what happened there. I think your taking that fresh dough, and stretching it to suit your own agenda. In this case, the evidence already on the table overwhelmingly implicates Vick. Right now, the masses who are casual fans or non fans of the NFL probably don't know much if anything about it. Once this really hits the fan, do you think Goddell can sit idly by and do nothing because Vick sells more jersey's than some other player?

 

[infantrycak]

Give you 3 guesses as to the most sold jersey in the nfl.

Last year? The only source I have seen didn't have Vick at #1. LT was #1 and Vick was #10 in mens jerseys. McNabb was #1 and Vick wasn't in the top 10 for womens jersey sales.

 

[swtbound07]

you do realize what dogfighting is, right?
you do realize that thousands of innocent dogs die to fulfill these sick losers subhuman thirst for blood,right?

pointing to Ray Lewis as an excuse for Vick or claiming that he killed someone (when evidence points that it was a member of crew) and then saying that having a dog murderer is good for the NFL is what is truly 'laughable'.

Vick is just another loser who has such an inflated view of himself that he has to 'play God' to feel good about himself. Never mind the fact that most of the time the dogs are put down after many fights....sometimes both dogs.

You may want to read a little bit about the dogfighting sub'culture' and what it takes to train a fighting dog. it takes rabbits, kittens, cats, small dogs, and other pitbulls.....oh and lots of pain, suffering, blood, death, and MONEY. Vick funded the thing and his butt is gonna get pinched and the league will be better for it. no doubt about it. dude can go hang out in the 'hood' with his convict brother for all I care. they are peas in a pod.

Maybe the reason the NFL is having so many problems right now is the fact that bad guys like Lewis and even the 'White House'-era Cowboys were left to run amuck for the most part. That was the Tagliabue era. Once police blotters became as prevalent as replays on ESPN the NFL decided to get tough. Notice how PacMan was kicked to the curb like a nickel skank by Goodell.

It's a new time and the paying public isn't going to support a scumbag like Vick who has to get his jollies from a bloodsport because he can't get his jollies from any females because his package is a ticking timebomb of herpes and gonorrhea(sic). Ron Mexico is just getting some karma thrown back at him....I don't care whether he goes to jail but he needs to be kicked from the league for a significant term based on the information being made public (at least 1 yr suspension)

Allright i'll say it. I could give a damn about dogfighting. There are too many battles in the world to get upset about every single one. Child abusers, Rapists, Cold blooded killers, people who torture people, Home invaders, Armed Robbers, people who swindle old people, mothers who drown their kids...these are the kinds of things i find despicable and get upset over. Dogs? Screw dogs. Also, to think that vick is an aberration in the NFL as far as dogfighting goes is laughable. As somebody else remarked about our own Dominack Davis....you'll find a lot of pitbull tattoos, and a lot of interest in the sport in the NFL's subculture. I'd venture that a lot more fan-friendly players are engaged in this bloodsport.

People beat the living hell out of each other for entertainment all the time. Its bloody, its violent. Such is life. The world isn't all kittens and sunshine. The man can play football. People will, and have paid to watch the man play football. The atlanta falcons are considerably better off with him at quarterback than with joey harrington. Let the man play.

 

[Porky]

Allright i'll say it. I could give a damn about dogfighting. There are too many battles in the world to get upset about every single one. Child abusers, Rapists, Cold blooded killers, people who torture people, Home invaders, Armed Robbers, people who swindle old people, mothers who drown their kids...these are the kinds of things i find despicable and get upset over. Dogs? Screw dogs. Also, to think that vick is an aberration in the NFL as far as dogfighting goes is laughable. As somebody else remarked about our own Dominack Davis....you'll find a lot of pitbull tattoos, and a lot of interest in the sport in the NFL's subculture. I'd venture that a lot more fan-friendly players are engaged in this bloodsport.

People beat the living hell out of each other for entertainment all the time. Its bloody, its violent. Such is life. The world isn't all kittens and sunshine. The man can play football. People will, and have paid to watch the man play football. The atlanta falcons are considerably better off with him at quarterback than with joey harrington. Let the man play.

What, you can't fit all that compassion into your teeny tiny little heart? You remind me of the Grinch, whose heart was 10 times too small. Funny thing is even the Grinch loved his little sled dog. Maybe your heart is 100 times too small. Pathetic post.

 

[swtbound07]

What, you can't fit all that compassion into your teeny tiny little heart? You remind me of the Grinch, whose heart was 10 times too small. Funny thing is even the Grinch loved his little sled dog. Maybe your heart is 100 times too small. Pathetic post.

Porky and Cak, Check your PM's

 

[hollywood_texan]

Allright i'll say it. I could give a damn about dogfighting.

It seems your issue is that Vick should not be punished for this behavior.

I suspect it really doesn't matter what Vick does in your eyes.

I believe that is really your point.

What if President Bush was funding some organized dog fighting ring, knowingly or unknowlingly? I am sure you would have different opinion on the subject.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Allright i'll say it. I could give a damn about dogfighting. There are too many battles in the world to get upset about every single one. Child abusers, Rapists, Cold blooded killers, people who torture people, Home invaders, Armed Robbers, people who swindle old people, mothers who drown their kids...these are the kinds of things i find despicable and get upset over. Dogs? Screw dogs. Also, to think that vick is an aberration in the NFL as far as dogfighting goes is laughable. As somebody else remarked about our own Dominack Davis....you'll find a lot of pitbull tattoos, and a lot of interest in the sport in the NFL's subculture. I'd venture that a lot more fan-friendly players are engaged in this bloodsport.

People beat the living hell out of each other for entertainment all the time. Its bloody, its violent. Such is life. The world isn't all kittens and sunshine. The man can play football. People will, and have paid to watch the man play football. The atlanta falcons are considerably better off with him at quarterback than with joey harrington. Let the man play.

those people have a choice and the dogs don't. what about the dogs that are sacrificied and brutally slaughtered for the sole reason to see if a dog is ready to 'fight' and is 'game. btw those dogs die. oh, and 99.9% of the boxing/mma people arent dead, permanently handicapped, or shot at the end of the fight.

my point is that it is a privilige to play in the NFL and if having dogs kill each other is more important than your membership in the league than he doesn't have any business in the league. the league must not be that important to Vick because he is dragging the league through the dregs of humanity with this garbage. this isn't about dogs this is about respect for the league and about not having backwards arse dirtbags like Vick in the league. You put the smack down on Vick and you send a message that this type of behavior is unacceptable.

As for you saying other players in the league are involved in it, they arent the ones stupid enough to get caught financing and supporting it logistically. If AJ, DeMeco, Mario, or ANYONE on the Texans was involved in this, I would say 'goodbye and good riddance' without a second thought.

 

[Porky]

Porky and Cak, Check your PM's

Got it. Thanks. I'll leave it as private, but sometimes things are not as they appear.

 

[swtbound07]

those people have a choice and the dogs don't. what about the dogs that are sacrificied and brutally slaughtered for the sole reason to see if a dog is ready to 'fight' and is 'game. btw those dogs die. oh, and 99.9% of the boxing/mma people arent dead, permanently handicapped, or shot at the end of the fight.

my point is that it is a privilige to play in the NFL and if having dogs kill each other is more important than your membership in the league than he doesn't have any business in the league. the league must not be that important to Vick because he is dragging the league through the dregs of humanity with this garbage. this isn't about dogs this is about respect for the league and about not having backwards arse dirtbags like Vick in the league. You put the smack down on Vick and you send a message that this type of behavior is unacceptable.

As for you saying other players in the league are involved in it, they arent the ones stupid enough to get caught financing and supporting it logistically. If AJ, DeMeco, Mario, or ANYONE on the Texans was involved in this, I would say 'goodbye and good riddance' without a second thought.

Your compassion overwhelms me. God save the queen and the precious league. The NFL survived Bam Morris, I'm pretty sure it can stand up to Mike Vick. It seems a little much to call him the dregs of humanity when he hasn't been CONVICTED of anything. You know, all those due process things that people like to convieniently ignore in the court of public opinion. Your just out to crucify vick. You don't give a damn about slaughtered dogs, and its disingenuous to pretend like you do. The bolded sentence says you don't. The italicized sentence says you watch too much professional wrestling.

Fish gotta fly, birds gotta swim, Michael Vick's dogs gotta fight. Its the facts of life homie....learn to cope.

(Icak and Porky.....more clear now?)

 

[real]

those people have a choice and the dogs don't. what about the dogs that are sacrificied and brutally slaughtered for the sole reason to see if a dog is ready to 'fight' and is 'game. btw those dogs die.

Let me start by saying I'm not defending dog fighting...

But at what point does our compassion for animals and other living things start and stop ?

Do we only have that kind of compassion for house pets ?

What about hunters who shoot a deer, and that deer doesn't die right away and runs a couple miles, bleeds out and then dies....Isn't that kind of cruel ? What about the fisherman who uses that smaller fish to catch that bigger fish ? What about using horses and dogs to race, merely for our entertainment, and then killing them when they get injured or can no longer perform? What about the Rabbits, and birds and other critters that were killed to clear land to put your home on ?

Is it because these animals are supposed to be 'house pets' ? Just about every animal in this world fights, and sometimes it's the death...Heck, dogs fight a lot on their own...

Again, I don't agree with dog fighting and I think if Vick is guilty then he should be prsecuted...But I also think if a person steals they should be prosecuted...I don't agree with dog fighting...but that's only because I love dogs, yet I realize my opinion on the subject is slightly biased...

If I were a horse lover, I'd probably be more adamant about the way race horses are treated or the way circus ponies are treated...

Do any of you guys think your opinions may be slightly biased because of your love for the animal in question, or do you believe all of it is wrong and every animal from rabbits, to turtles, to snakes should have the same treatment as our 'house pets' ?

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Your compassion overwhelms me. God save the queen and the precious league. The NFL survived Bam Morris, I'm pretty sure it can stand up to Mike Vick. It seems a little much to call him the dregs of humanity when he hasn't been CONVICTED of anything. You know, all those due process things that people like to convieniently ignore in the court of public opinion. Your just out to crucify vick. You don't give a damn about slaughtered dogs, and its disingenuous to pretend like you do. The bolded sentence says you don't. The italicized sentence says you watch too much professional wrestling.

Fish gotta fly, birds gotta swim, Michael Vick's dogs gotta fight. Its the facts of life homie....learn to cope.

(Icak and Porky.....more clear now?)

I am out to crucify Vick? As for dogs, I care about the slaughtered dogs but this isnt about just the dogs. This is about protecting the league and keeping scumbags out of it.

if you think Michael Vick fighting dogs is a fact of life, well then you then admit he is guilty. It seems to me like your just a low expectation having person who holds no one accountable for anything and doesn't care about anyone but himself. just an observation.

bolding someone's words does not win the argument but I thought I wrote 'its not just about the dogs' instead of 'its not about the dogs'. As for professional wrestling, the last time I watched that garbage was when I was 8 years old watching Junkyard Dog and Hacksaw Jim Duggan. But whatever, keep making excuses for people's behavior. You can't take away from the argument that dog fighting is wrong and anyone engaged in that behavior doesn't need to be in the league.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Let me start by saying I'm not defending dog fighting...

But at what point does our compassion for animals and other living things start and stop ?

Do we only have that kind of compassion for house pets ?

What about hunters who shoot a deer, and that deer doesn't die right away and runs a couple miles, bleeds out and then dies....Isn't that kind of cruel ? What about the fisherman who uses that smaller fish to catch that bigger fish ? What about using horses and dogs to race, merely for our entertainment, and then killing them when they get injured or can no longer perform? What about the Rabbits, and birds and other critters that were killed to clear land to put your home on ?

Is it because these animals are supposed to be 'house pets' ? Just about every animal in this world fights, and sometimes it's the death...Heck, dogs fight a lot on their own...

Again, I don't agree with dog fighting and I think if Vick is guilty then he should be prsecuted...But I also think if a person steals they should be prosecuted...I don't agree with dog fighting...but that's only because I love dogs, yet I realize my opinion on the subject is slightly biased...

If I were a horse lover, I'd probably be more adamant about the way race horses are treated or the way circus ponies are treated...

Do any of you guys think your opinions may be slightly biased because of your love for the animal in question, or do you believe all of it is wrong and every animal from rabbits, to turtles, to snakes should have the same treatment as our 'house pets' ?

yes it is a strange line, but the line had to be drawn somewhere. People voted and legislation was adopted to ban the sport in 49 out of 51 states.

I think the biggest difference is that these dogs arent born, fed, raised, and then put in a pit to fight naturally. They are taught to fight. Dogs and other animals are sacrificied in order to give 'cheap' prey to these dogs to give them the killer instinct. The dogs are abused to make them mean. The dogs are a danger to the public especially kids when they get loose. The dogs are used as pieces in a game that is played by the losers of the world. The dogs are shot and put down if they lose a fight.

Put it this way, if I own a dog and you own a dog, and we walk by each other and our dog's fight, that is just a natural thing. it is not a felony and we arent scum of the world. but if you train a dog to attack another dog just for your own enjoyment, that is unnatural and sick. the whole organized dog fighting culture is not a natural thing. in fact, it is the opposite. a lot of public's problem with dogfighting is the process by which the dogs learn and become skilled at fighting and surviving.

swtbound - we get it. you dont care about dogs. you dont care about illegal activity. you dont think anyone cares about dogfighting and that just everyone wants to crucify vick. you can keep that opinion if you want, but I don't buy it and I don't think I am the only one. maybe once you learn a little bit more about the world and grow up a bit, your opinion will change. with a name like swtbound, it makes me think you are heading to San Marcos for your education. That is a great thing and I think as you grow up and get more educated you may see where people are coming from.

BTW, I thought SWT's name was changed to Texas State. All I know is that during my time at Texas, we went to some killer parties at SWT...and the ladies were in abundance.

 

[swtbound07]

yes it is a strange line, but the line had to be drawn somewhere. People voted and legislation was adopted to ban the sport in 49 out of 51 states.

I think the biggest difference is that these dogs arent born, fed, raised, and then put in a pit to fight naturally. They are taught to fight. Dogs and other animals are sacrificied in order to give 'cheap' prey to these dogs to give them the killer instinct. The dogs are abused to make them mean. The dogs are a danger to the public especially kids when they get loose. The dogs are used as pieces in a game that is played by the losers of the world. The dogs are shot and put down if they lose a fight.

Put it this way, if I own a dog and you own a dog, and we walk by each other and our dog's fight, that is just a natural thing. it is not a felony and we arent scum of the world. but if you train a dog to attack another dog just for your own enjoyment, that is unnatural and sick. the whole organized dog fighting culture is not a natural thing. in fact, it is the opposite. a lot of public's problem with dogfighting is the process by which the dogs learn and become skilled at fighting and surviving.

swtbound - we get it. you dont care about dogs. you dont care about illegal activity. you dont think anyone cares about dogfighting and that just everyone wants to crucify vick. you can keep that opinion if you want, but I don't buy it and I don't think I am the only one. maybe once you learn a little bit more about the world and grow up a bit, your opinion will change. with a name like swtbound, it makes me think you are heading to San Marcos for your education. That is a great thing and I think as you grow up and get more educated you may see where people are coming from.

BTW, I thought SWT's name was changed to Texas State. All I know is that during my time at Texas, we went to some killer parties at SWT...and the ladies were in abundance.

I was....a long long time ago, back in the Fall of 03. Texas state has already had me and kicked me out. I wasn't saying NOBODY cares about dogs, just that I don't, and you don't. Where is the outrage about people owning pet snakes? You have to kill mice and other animals just to feed them? You care more about the integrity of your precious nfl, and this is just the latest false cause. When your writing these posts, you save your anger and most of your better writing for the parts when your talking about the nfl and how its being dragged into the depths and dregs of humanity etc. etc. ad nauseum. Your giving lip service to the dogs, but your really concerned with a league thats concerned only with its image. Other people on this board, yeah maybe i buy legitimate outrage about the dogs. You? Not so much.....

And as far as people getting my opinion...i'd venture to guess right now that your the only one who doesn't understand what im doing.

 

[powerfuldragon]

 

[Second Honeymoon]

I was....a long long time ago, back in the Fall of 03. Texas state has already had me and kicked me out. I wasn't saying NOBODY cares about dogs, just that I don't, and you don't. Where is the outrage about people owning pet snakes? You have to kill mice and other animals just to feed them? You care more about the integrity of your precious nfl, and this is just the latest false cause. When your writing these posts, you save your anger and most of your better writing for the parts when your talking about the nfl and how its being dragged into the depths and dregs of humanity etc. etc. ad nauseum. Your giving lip service to the dogs, but your really concerned with a league thats concerned only with its image. Other people on this board, yeah maybe i buy legitimate outrage about the dogs. You? Not so much.....

And as far as people getting my opinion...i'd venture to guess right now that your the only one who doesn't understand what im doing.

well sorry about you getting kicked out out of Texas State. lots of parties, lots of girls, and lots of drinking can make that school a tough nut to crack.

If you don't think I care about dogs, then you are wrong. My thing is I can't do anything about losers wanting to see dogs kill each other for sport and entertainment. I am not a prosecutor or investigator or judge. But I am an NFL fan and as a fan I don't want Vick to drag this league down into the dregs of society and give it more of a black eye than it already has from this.

bottom line is that I can't stop Vick from being a degenerate scumbag on his own time. but I do think we as fans can do something to get him out of the league. if they don't get him out of the league, we will see that the NFL cares more about $$ and people smoking weed than people involved in the felonious business of dog fighting and animal cruelty, abuse, and murder.

just my opinion. i know you are trying to play devil's advocate but there is a difference between the food chain/circle of life and the systematic torturing and murdering of animals that happens all throughout the dog fighting cycle. big difference. and that, my friend, is why is it illegal and a felony in almost all states.....

 

[swtbound07]

well sorry about you getting kicked out out of Texas State. lots of parties, lots of girls, and lots of drinking can make that school a tough nut to crack.

If you don't think I care about dogs, then you are wrong. My thing is I can't do anything about losers wanting to see dogs kill each other for sport and entertainment. I am not a prosecutor or investigator or judge. But I am an NFL fan and as a fan I don't want Vick to drag this league down into the dregs of society and give it more of a black eye than it already has from this.

bottom line is that I can't stop Vick from being a degenerate scumbag on his own time. but I do think we as fans can do something to get him out of the league. if they don't get him out of the league, we will see that the NFL cares more about $$ and people smoking weed than people involved in the felonious business of dog fighting and animal cruelty, abuse, and murder.

just my opinion. i know you are trying to play devil's advocate but there is a difference between the food chain/circle of life and the systematic torturing and murdering of animals that happens all throughout the dog fighting cycle. big difference. and that, my friend, is why is it illegal and a felony in almost all states.....

Leonard Little. If your going to start a campaign to clean up the nfl from degenerate scumbags, you should start there.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

ya bennigan'z...let the video in the link play for about 1.5 min. while Human Giant talks for a bit and this comedy group from NYC called Cracked Out comes out and man it gets funny. the performance is about those wannabe Gotti boys/white guys trying to assimilate black/hiphop culture but are really just little Ken dolls. If anyone watched Growing Up Gotti or live in Philly or NJ/NYC (or just about anywhere nowadays), they will know what they are talking about....

Ya Bennigan'z

http://www.mtv.com/overdrive/?id=1560050&vid=150016

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Leonard Little. If your going to start a campaign to clean up the nfl from degenerate scumbags, you should start there.

as someone from St.Louis, I know all too well about Leonard Little. Guy is a dirtbag and shouldn't be in the league either. Killing a woman while DUI wasn't enough but had to keep on getting DUIs.....yet he still gets paid.

/agreed

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Leonard Little. If your going to start a campaign to clean up the nfl from degenerate scumbags, you should start there.

There's a new sheriff in town. But he can't go around and throw people out of the league until they do something on his watch. Guys like Leonard Little and Ray Lewis have to know that they're on an extremely short leash. They have to keep themselves clean and incident free.

If Vick gets convicted of a felony, he'll be out of the league for quite awhile. If there is significant proof of his involvement, then he doesn't have to be convicted to be suspended. It's like a civil case. You don't have to show proof beyond a reasonable doubt, just enough to make innocence extremely doubtful.

 

[TexansLucky13]

I started the thread about this on the houstontexans.com MB as 12th Man, with a much more colorful approach to the matter. On here I will opt to limit my choice of words.

It's all fun and games on the message board when we discuss whether or not dog fighting should or should not be legal. But the fact is, gentlemen..... it is not legal in the state(s) where Vick has been accused of said affairs.

As an adult and a rolemodel to many teenagers and young athletes, Vick should have known better than to be involved in something such as dog fighting. I don't care if you think it's right to have fighting dogs or not, but the fact remains that it is not legal in most states, and therefore it is something that should not be practiced in said states.

I have my own opinions about Vick, but even I can step back and look at the situation as unbias as possible. Vick has made a mistake, and he will pay for it.

 

[real]

I started the thread about this on the houstontexans.com MB as 12th Man, with a much more colorful approach to the matter. On here I will opt to limit my choice of words.

It's all fun and games on the message board when we discuss whether or not dog fighting should or should not be legal. But the fact is, gentlemen..... it is not legal in the state(s) where Vick has been accused of said affairs.

As an adult and a rolemodel to many teenagers and young athletes, Vick should have known better than to be involved in something such as dog fighting. I don't care if you think it's right to have fighting dogs or not, but the fact remains that it is not legal in most states, and therefore it is something that should not be practiced in said states.

I have my own opinions about Vick, but even I can step back and look at the situation as unbias as possible. Vick has made a mistake, and he will pay for it.

I like the approach where people talk about how his moral compass is screwed up and he is a sick human being better...That holds more water than the "it's a crime" argument with most normal Americans IMHO....

Everyone commits crimes, some bigger than othes...Everyone has done something illegal whether knowingly or unknowingly...Everyone has broken a rule....

Attack him morally...Attack his values....call him sick....

But please don't act like this man is the only person to ever have disobeyed the law.

 

[infantrycak]

Are you sure about this?

Politics aside for whether he will or should in this instance, yes the commissioner has the power to suspend players without any criminal conduct proven or even formally charged.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Politics aside for whether he will or should in this instance, yes the commissioner has the power to suspend players without any criminal conduct proven or even formally charged.

just ask PacMan.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Are you sure about this? Because that would empty the house quickly. Think about it. The DA didn't serve a warrant because of wording and I don't believe they have re-written it. Until they do, and he is arrested, charged or linked legally, it could all just be a bunch of hooey. The Commish can take statements from persons at large in the public, be significantly convinced there was involvement and he can then suspend Vick? That means that 10 or so people in every major city where a team resides can cook up a story, tell the Big Guy and out the player goes. I don't think that will happen. Not unless the NFL is ready to handle a big time lawsuit.

I think there is no doubt what will happen if he is convicted. However, if they fail to even bring charges into a court of law to indicate involvememnt, Vick will stay. I believe the last I heard the DA say was that they would not be re-writing the warrant. Anyone hear differently?

I'm fairly certain. It's exactly what happened to Pac Man and I think it forms the basis for his appeal. If there are a bunch of incidents circulating about you doing "bad" things, the commissioner is going to have some people investigate it. Then he's going to sit down, sift through the evidence, bring you in and talk to you about it, and then based on his take, he can let you play or he can suspend you.

In a non-martial, criminal court in the US (not in other nations), you have to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil case, you just have to be shown to be almost certainly guilty (I don't know/remember what the actual legal wording is.)

The commissioner isn't bound to the courts. If he thinks your behavior is giving the league a bad name, he can suspend you for any period he sees fit. After that it's going to be up to the player's association and your lawyer to have to fight to get you back into the league. At this point, I think the appeal goes back to the commissioner. I'm not sure if you can appeal to a higher court or what that higher court would be.

 

[Mr teX]

Allright i'll say it. I could give a damn about dogfighting. There are too many battles in the world to get upset about every single one. Child abusers, Rapists, Cold blooded killers, people who torture people, Home invaders, Armed Robbers, people who swindle old people, mothers who drown their kids...these are the kinds of things i find despicable and get upset over. Dogs? Screw dogs. Also, to think that vick is an aberration in the NFL as far as dogfighting goes is laughable. As somebody else remarked about our own Dominack Davis....you'll find a lot of pitbull tattoos, and a lot of interest in the sport in the NFL's subculture. I'd venture that a lot more fan-friendly players are engaged in this bloodsport.

People beat the living hell out of each other for entertainment all the time. Its bloody, its violent. Such is life. The world isn't all kittens and sunshine. The man can play football. People will, and have paid to watch the man play football. The atlanta falcons are considerably better off with him at quarterback than with joey harrington. Let the man play.

That's pretty much it right there.......

 

[Koolaid Time]

just ask PacMan.

To plea out that pending charge of assualting a police officer in Fayette County, Georgia, Pacman was offered 1 year in the Georgia Department of Corrections.

Pacman said no.

That was a stupid move. He wants to roll the dice with a Georgia Jury. The man is crazier than I thought.

 

[edo783]

The man is crazier than I thought.

In my case, that would be pretty dang crazy.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

and when it could not get more strange...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2893325

There have been no charges filed in the case of alleged dogfighting at Michael Vick's home in Virginia, but that doesn't mean that the home has quieted down.

According to a police report obtained by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the home in Surry, Va., was broken into between May 7 and May 18 and a number of expensive items were removed.

"I don't think it has anything to do with possible evidence," Commonwealth attorney Gerald Poindexter said of the dogfighting investigation. "I think it was some feuding over the spoils."

Three plasma televisions, two floor buffers, a wet/dry vacuum, a washer and dryer and a $17,000 leather sofa were taken from the Atlanta quarterback's home.

"Someone had attempted to break in the front window," the police report said. "The alarm was not working."

Whoever perpetrated the crime appeared to have entered through a rear window.

Poindexter indicated that the investigation of dogfighting at the property was not compromised. But he is still not close to filing charges.

"I don't have, to date, one investigative report," Poindexter told the newspaper. "I have nothing on my desk. I'm in touch with people who can assure me they can provide me the stuff. That's where we are."

 

[ccdude730]

Three plasma televisions, two floor buffers, a wet/dry vacuum, a washer and dryer and a $17,000 leather sofa were taken from the Atlanta quarterback's home.

that sure sounds like a whole lot of work. you would need several guys and a big truck for all that.

Poindexter indicated that the investigation of dogfighting at the property was not compromised. But he is still not close to filing charges.

who will act first? poindexter or goodell?