zshawn10
All Pro
I don't know if Sports Science here says Brady throws at 61 MPH or not:
http://fansided.com/2015/11/23/espns-sports-science-explains-exactly-tom-brady-good/
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Sellout for Deshaun Watson
- Thread starter amazing80
- Start date
http://fansided.com/2015/11/23/espns-sports-science-explains-exactly-tom-brady-good/
Thanks, I know it had been said that 55 is considered a base line number.
Poster with screename "Number19" thought it was 51.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
So how fast did ol Savage throw
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zshawn10
All Pro
57 mph
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Hmm, we'll that's a plus
PapaL
Loose Screw
If he makes a mistake, he makes it fast!
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Lmao that's funny. **** Schaub could throw one and we might not catch It by week 14.
jradMIT
Veteran
The stereotype of white athletes is probably one of the reasons JJ Watt fell to the Texans. If you read the scouting reports his off the charts athleticism wasn't really recognized even though his Sparq rating is one of the highest all all time at 99.8. I think some people have a hard time believing he could be that kind of athlete because he is white. When I look at McCaffrey, I see Marshall Faulk. The amazing agility and receiving skills. His three cone was off the charts at 6.57. He is my favorite back this year.
I don't see why color has to be in the conversation at all...
This is disturbing to me
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Double
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Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I'm sorry, but your entire rant is so full of social justice nonsense, I can't even take you seriously.
You're so hell bent on trying to be this cape wearing warrior of whats racist and what isn't that you still haven't successfully even comprehended by original post that sent you into full blown attack mode without the substance. Usually when someone like you starts shouting out labels and titles the way you are, the racism is just reflected off of you especially when you're trying to deny any history or any bits of information that "might" be relevant to the discussion. What are you so afraid of?
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
He's afraid to go down that road of history to see if there is any real meat for some reason.
I thought about this for a long while one day, and when I considered all of the 1st round draft picks that were these athletic freak QB's that were dual threat guys, most of them either failed or had short stints of success where they eventually faltered. Problem is most of them weren't true elite passers to begin with, so they found success in being able to take off and run when openings popped up, and because of that they also could find openings in the passing game where a lot of guys have good enough arms in college. The pros is so different with the speed and the amount of collisions that guys will take where it eventually will tear up a guy's body. Look at Cam Newton from last season and how quickly RG3's career went down the drain after those injuries. For the record, the scarcity of a lot of teams to go after these white RB's is understandable, because there simply hasn't been many of them that had success in the pros. Most of them that have, have only experienced mainly short term stints for a season or so. I can completely understand the skepticism.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I disagree. Watt was a low to mid round pick in the first round. That isn't falling in the draft at all. He wasn't this dominating force that destroyed college football, but he was really good of course like a lot of players. The footage I watched of him in college didn't jump out at all to where I thought he'd be anywhere close to what he is today. He was compared to Kyle Vanden Bosch when we drafted him I remember and it looked somewhat accurate and I liked it. Vanden Bosch was a solid player for the Titans for a long time. When Watt was drafted Jared Allen (White guy) was dominating the league at DE, so I highly doubt that scouts were afraid of white Dlineman like they would be of white RB's which is definitely a thing that exists.
jradMIT
Veteran
You missing the point, none of those guys had off the charts athleticism like Watt so why do they get compared to him?. Watt's Sparq rating is in the top 5 of all time! That should have been his best selling point, but its only secondarily mentioned. Its almost as if it couldn't be believed.
All the way to 11??
I don't know if that's a fall. Just from memory he was billed as a 3-4 DE. 11 is pretty danged high for a 3-4 DE.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
You keep acting like Watt was a 3rd rounder. He was a mid to low first rounder, so as an example he doesn't really apply. I would say his football intangibles were overlooked more than anything, but they really weren't since he was drafted so high. There was nothing that took place in JJ's college career or in his workouts that suggested he was going to become the best defensive player of all time. A potentially really good player, but but not another L.T.
I liked this post because you remember that draft same as I did.
However, I may be off base... I have no idea what "scouts" are thinking. But if they see a guy with the production McCaffery has & the numbers he put up at the combine, I don't think think they would discount his prospects in the NFL because he's white. There aren't a lot of successful white RBs in the league, true. But I think it's because there aren't a lot of white RBs that produced the way McCaffery did or posted combine numbers the way McCafferey did. & the fact that he comes from an athletically prolific family, I doubt he gets discounted at all, for any reason.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I think some would, and I wouldn't blame them for it. Remember the last white guy that was so highly touted at RB? Toby Gerhart. He didn't do squat. I think Peyton Hillis was really good for a short while, but once he sunk he flamed out quick. And it was always strange as to why so many coaches wouldn't ever play him until every other RB was hurt and he was the last resort. Both in Denver and in Cleveland that happened, but Hillis was pretty good and always made the most out of his opportunities. But besides that, there just hasn't been many at all. There just isn't nearly enough white guys who carry the skill set to be successful in the NFL at the RB position. Does that mean that a few can't be? Of course not. Some definitely could, but the risk factor of them failing is a lot higher and there is nothing wrong with recognizing that based on the past. In society we use metrics and statistics to measure all sorts of risk factors and trends. Running a sports team is no different, and to some degree I think there is relevance to certain concerns.
Isn't McCaffrey the guy that only did like 13 reps on the bench press at 225? I'm pretty sure he is, and that would be a big red flag to me honestly. That's not a lot of weight for a college football star and for one that will need to block well and explode through holes, they'll need good upper body strength. Doesn't mean he can't still be good, but that is one negative I'd say about his combine since you brought it up.
jradMIT
Veteran
13 reps isn't a big deal, its probably the least important for a RB, only applicable to blocking, 13 isn't even that low. Broad Jump and Vertical are the best measure of explosiveness which is needed when going through the hole. His were very good at 121 and 37, his short shuttle and three cone were best in class. The only other top RB that had a higher Sparq rating than him was Kamara @ 79. McCaffrey was 71, meaning he is in the 70th percentile of the NFL athletically speaking for RB's which is a great mark. If you are looking at his athletic measureables and his production and discounting it because of the color of his skin(which is absurd), you will miss out on a very good prospect for an asinine reason.
Remember Ron Dayne? I think he was comparable to Gerhart. Both of them were looked at with much anticipation for pretty much the same reason. They both failed in the NFL for pretty much the same reason.
Christian McCaffery... right now he looks like Reggie Bush to me. Had McCaffery gone to USC & won Championships, some people would be talking about taking him #1 overall. I think the odds for McCaffery to be successful in the NFL are about the same as Reggie's. IMO that's slim if we're talking about a first round pick. If someone were to draft McCaffery in the first round thinking he'll be a 3 down back, they're going to be disappointed. If he's drafted by someone like Andy Reid, or Bruce Arians thinking he'll be a "flex" player, he's more likely to live up to a first round selection.
But the point... comparing him to comparable players & acknowledging he's going to have to deal with the same things they did & how he deals with those things will determine if he's a success or failure in the NFL, is the way most people do it.
Comparing him to Danny Woodhead, or Peyton Hillis & saying he's likely to fail because he is white like they are...
McCaffery only did 10 reps. You're right. If someone drafts him expecting him to explode through holes, or block well... probably going to fail. But that's because he only did 10 reps, signifying he lacks the strength to excel at those tasks... not because he's white.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Do you lift at all? 13 reps is terrible for a weight of 225 for any college football player unless they're a kicker and I'd bet a high majority of kickers are capable of that. RB's need strength in their arms, shoulders, and chests. If it wasn't any kind of deal at all, I highly doubt they'd still be doing it at the combine. I'd also question how hard a RB works on his skill set and abilities if he struggles to bench a set of 225 especially before something as important as the combine. And yes, I'll discount based on the fact that this league hasn't seen a white star at RB since Larry Zonka or John Riggins (However his name is spelled) which was in the 70's if I'm not mistaken. I stated very clearly if you bothered to read that there are always exceptions and that doesn't mean that McCaffrey won't be a great player, but the concerns are more than valid based o
Remember Ron Dayne? I think he was comparable to Gerhart. Both of them were looked at with much anticipation for pretty much the same reason. They both failed in the NFL for pretty much the same reason.
Christian McCaffery... right now he looks like Reggie Bush to me. Had McCaffery gone to USC & won Championships, some people would be talking about taking him #1 overall. I think the odds for McCaffery to be successful in the NFL are about the same as Reggie's. IMO that's slim if we're talking about a first round pick. If someone were to draft McCaffery in the first round thinking he'll be a 3 down back, they're going to be disappointed. If he's drafted by someone like Andy Reid, or Bruce Arians thinking he'll be a "flex" player, he's more likely to live up to a first round selection.
But the point... comparing him to comparable players & acknowledging he's going to have to deal with the same things they did & how he deals with those things will determine if he's a success or failure in the NFL, is the way most people do it.
Comparing him to Danny Woodhead, or Peyton Hillis & saying he's likely to fail because he is white like they are...
McCaffery only did 10 reps. You're right. If someone drafts him expecting him to explode through holes, or block well... probably going to fail. But that's because he only did 10 reps, signifying he lacks the strength to excel at those tasks... not because he's white.
You guys have simply change what racism means, thats all. Being to thin skinned to be able to freely talk about trends and historical analysis all because this idea that it has to be offensive in itself is not productive. IN business and everywhere else people use historical data to make decisions and to decide on what may be effective for success. The fact that you guys are going to come up with "racism" as if it is being used with harmful intent is simply side stepping the real issue and showing fear for the fact that there might be a legit argument for it. Anyone can scream out racism and close their eyes and ears. That shows a sign of fear if you ask me. I also didn't say a word about bench pressing and race, so I have no idea why you threw that in here. That was separate response to someone suggesting that his combine numbers were so wonderful when they all were not.
So much for white privilege!!!Remember Ron Dayne? I think he was comparable to Gerhart. Both of them were looked at with much anticipation for pretty much the same reason. They both failed in the NFL for pretty much the same reason.
Christian McCaffery... right now he looks like Reggie Bush to me. Had McCaffery gone to USC & won Championships, some people would be talking about taking him #1 overall. I think the odds for McCaffery to be successful in the NFL are about the same as Reggie's. IMO that's slim if we're talking about a first round pick. If someone were to draft McCaffery in the first round thinking he'll be a 3 down back, they're going to be disappointed. If he's drafted by someone like Andy Reid, or Bruce Arians thinking he'll be a "flex" player, he's more likely to live up to a first round selection.
But the point... comparing him to comparable players & acknowledging he's going to have to deal with the same things they did & how he deals with those things will determine if he's a success or failure in the NFL, is the way most people do it.
Comparing him to Danny Woodhead, or Peyton Hillis & saying he's likely to fail because he is white like they are...
McCaffery only did 10 reps. You're right. If someone drafts him expecting him to explode through holes, or block well... probably going to fail. But that's because he only did 10 reps, signifying he lacks the strength to excel at those tasks... not because he's white.
I suggested his combine numbers were wonderful. You picked that one & even said he won't be able to block or explode through holes because of them. Even though I don't believe his bench press has anything to do with exploding through holes & can be compensated for in blocking, I went with it. Acknowledging the strength that event demonstrates would be the reason McCaffery wouldn't be able to do those things. Having nothing to do with his race.
& yes, businesses use trends & historical analysis all the time to make decisions. But the successful ones use trends & historical analysis that are relevant. That McCaffery is white has no bearing on how he will do in the NFL. There was probably some college coach who looked at him in highschool & said, "Talented kid. But he's white. He won't be an impact player at the college level." then decided not to recruit him. Another coach said, "Talented kid. If he can produce like that at the next level, he'll help my team win a lot of games."
& though the kid in that gif appears to be yelling, I'm not. I'm not offended.
To say that a man is more likely to get prostate cancer because he is black... is not racist.
To say a man won't succeed as an NFL running back because he is white... is.
To try to rerail the derail, my biggest problem with Watson are his terrible INT issues. They are alarming against college defenses. I like the fact that he is at his best in the biggest moments. Natural born winner. I like that he doesn't have the cannon of an arm that other draft picks have. Maybe that will help him to protect the ball better; he knows his arm talent isn't on a level with some other draft picks and he won't try to force the ball "because he can". Keep RB draft picks in the draft section, regardless of their BP #'s.
Can you play the position that you're drafted to play should exclude race, by definition. If there is a mauve AP out there, I'm drafting them.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Same stuff we said abut VY. The fact is very few of these types of QB's have panned out long term in the NFL.
Watson isn't my 1st choice for the Texans QB, but he has qualities that can make him successful if he's willing to work at it. Accuracy and quickness of release are two of the things I look for in a QB. He can improve his arm strength like Brady did. It's not like he has a noodle for an arm. His ability to read defenses will be the key to his NFL success. Swinney swears by Watson's work ethic. So I think odds are 70/30 that Watson becomes a top 15 QB.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I like his heart and ability to take team on his shoulders in prime time. He just got beat up so badly.
Nighthawk99
Waterboy
Black Qbs matter
Max
Veteran
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
T
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Matt Ryan threw 19 it's his last year at Boston College. Watson has 94 tds and 30 it's. That's 3:1 .
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Pretty much. Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Rick Miter to name a few classic drop back bust. People can say what they want about Vick, but he had a very good career. He also walked in Green Bay and won when no teams have done so. Young has a better win percentage than slot of was including the 2 pocket passers drafted the same yr.
Know how many reps Ezekiel Elliott had at last year's combine? Zero. Know how many he had at his Pro Day? Zero.
Is it a question mark? Sure. It's not the end of the world though.
I keep seeing the "49 mph" number associated with Watson. Combine velocity is not a real stat and really shouldn't be used against the guy. He was throwing against air and was just trying to complete the passes. I think someone broke down his game film (Ben Allbright I believe) and concluded it was closer 53 mph.
I don't view Watson as anything like VY.
He's more comparable to Charlie Ward than Vince.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
And if he had tried, I'm sure he would have done much better than McCaffrey. The fact that he didn't try doesn't say anything. Just says he didn't do it. I never said it was the end all be all, just that it was a poor showing of him at the combine in one area after someone else said his numbers were amazing. I remember Lendale White had a pretty bad bench press showing when he was drafted as well and that was a huge surprise for a guy his size. He had a little success in the NFL, but he flamed out really quickly.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
I agree. Watson is a much more prolific passer. Better completion %, way more yards, better TD:INT ratio with many more passing TDs. VY was very much a running QB similar to Tebow. Watson is a passer, with enough athleticism to run. Big difference.
jradMIT
Veteran
Bench really doesn't matter for RB's, comparing him to White misses the mark, they are completely different types of rb's. White failed in the NFL because he was an un-athletic bruiser who fumbled too much, McCaffrey is neither, what he does well, COD (change of direction), speed, hands translate very well and have nothing to do with bench press. Once again an Rb's lower half is what is important, and contrary to statements before that is what allows them to burst threw the hole. His vertical and broad jump were great, you harping on strength as if BP is the only way to measure it, yet you ignore the large amount of lower half strength he demonstrated with his jumps.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Gonna need a citation for that, or I'm calling bullshit. 49mph is the bottom of the barrel for any QB that went to the combine. That's pretty awful no matter how you look at it. The only current starting QB in the NFL to throw under 55mph is Tyrod Taylor, and he's not anything great.
This is an article from 2016 listing a lot of throwing speeds, but it's worth looking at. Certainly isn't any good company at the bottom of the list.
http://rotoviz.com/2016/04/does-ball-velocity-tell-us-anything-about-qb-success-rates/?hvid=3XXMPT
Not a lot of good company at the top of the list either... fact is not a great QB in the list
Sure would love to see an all-time list (I know not possible, but projected maybe) to put things into perspective
ok, I'm old and don't think these guys compare
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Yeah the very top names aren't great, but all of the good QBs are in the 55-59mph range, and there are plenty on that list. That's not to say that no one can be successful at >55 mph, but if some qb is, they will be the first in quite a while. I would shy away from taking a 1st round qb that is clearly below average on that metric.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Someone posted the speeds for this year's QB's and I've been unable to find it. Does anyone remember which thread it was in and when, and can post a link.
There is a saying often applied to WR's and RB's, there's track speed and there's playing speed. It seems reasonable to think something similar would apply to QB's. It's one thing to have the arm strength to just rear back and throw the ball as hard as you are capable. And then there's the game condition of throwing the ball with the zip and touch to throw completions.
Also, ball speed, especially under game conditions, can be improved on with time in the weight room and conditioning and becoming more experienced with the speed of the pro game.
It's something to be aware of but not something definitive.
There is a saying often applied to WR's and RB's, there's track speed and there's playing speed. It seems reasonable to think something similar would apply to QB's. It's one thing to have the arm strength to just rear back and throw the ball as hard as you are capable. And then there's the game condition of throwing the ball with the zip and touch to throw completions.
Also, ball speed, especially under game conditions, can be improved on with time in the weight room and conditioning and becoming more experienced with the speed of the pro game.
It's something to be aware of but not something definitive.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
The big difference is what's between the ears.
Are you referring to intelligence or off field issues? I've heard nothing but good things about Watson. The only issue I have with him are 30 INTs in two years. I like the fact that he responds well under pressure and he just wins, baby.