PHILLYTEXANFAN
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Rookie Mini-Camp
- Thread starter CloakNNNdagger
- Start date
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Seegara
Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
They say Dillard can't block for the run game. If it's true, it's a grievous flaw.
HaveMercy
Passing Through
Maybe I'm missing the real story here, but one of my concerns is that OB and Devlin will try too hard to cross train Howard and Scharping. At this pre-dawn point in their careers, they should be allowed to focus on one position, Howard at LT and Scharping at RT.
When they look really comfortable at these spots, maybe it's okay to expose them ever so briefly to other spots, but PLEASE, don't be so obsessed with cross training that they can't settle in and get good at LT and RT, respectably. Let them grow at one position first.
OB and Mike D, I'd appreciate it if you'd call me when you've read this to tell me you understand and agree. I charge most folks for this kind of advice, but today it's yours for free.
When they look really comfortable at these spots, maybe it's okay to expose them ever so briefly to other spots, but PLEASE, don't be so obsessed with cross training that they can't settle in and get good at LT and RT, respectably. Let them grow at one position first.
OB and Mike D, I'd appreciate it if you'd call me when you've read this to tell me you understand and agree. I charge most folks for this kind of advice, but today it's yours for free.
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HaveMercy
Passing Through
I understand that logic and yes, it could happen. But this year, we'll have Davenport and Rankin and ? who are already somewhat cross trained. Use those guys to patch the line as needed. It wouldn't be ideal, but it would still be better than moving Howard and Scharping around. I think.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
Agreed Texans have several options that can be moved around when called upon.
Davenport, Mancz, Kelemete and Fulton have all started at multiple OL positions in the NFL. I don’t think the youngsters would do a better job than these options in the event of having to switch positions in game or on a week to week basis in season due to inexperience.
I think it would be best for team if they just plant Howard at LT, Scharping RT and Rankin LG. Let the future core players on the OL figure out their roles!
Nothing with depth or not of the current Texans Olmen.
Actually, it is a roster management issue. Teams carry 7 no more than 8 OLmen on the active roster because normally there are no more than 1 or 2 injuries in the game to OLmen and that Olmen have limited special teams roles. BoGaine philosophically believes that having most if not all of their OLmen able to play multiple positions covers them better than say having 4 starters who are position stuck...LT only, RG only, etc.
In that specific game, if I remember correctly, a couple of the players already had injury issues before it started and the Texans, unwisely, only carried 7 Olmen in the game, instead of an 8th guy.
If you carried say Mancz and Henderson as your 2 extra OL. if anybody gets hurt Kelemete has played efficiently all over the OL as a backup and Mancz has done the same at the interior positions. Rankin could get you by for 1/2 a game with an altered game plan if needed. So there's finally quality depth there. Notice how I didn't mention Davenport? He would be the 8th OL and inactive many games, if he isn't traded.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
If they want to cross train Scharping, fine whatever.
But I don’t get cross training Howard unless they are not sure or don’t see him as the teams left tackle of the future.
Honestly if they see Scharping as the teams rt then leave him at rt too.
All those other players who need to get in where they fit in need to be cross training and finding all the ways to make themselves more valuable.
Let those guys truly become really good at something instead of acting all surprised when they’ve been cross training and aren’t all that at any position you put them in at because they are thinking so much.
But I don’t get cross training Howard unless they are not sure or don’t see him as the teams left tackle of the future.
Honestly if they see Scharping as the teams rt then leave him at rt too.
All those other players who need to get in where they fit in need to be cross training and finding all the ways to make themselves more valuable.
Let those guys truly become really good at something instead of acting all surprised when they’ve been cross training and aren’t all that at any position you put them in at because they are thinking so much.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
Hopefully this "cross training" is just preliminary to ascertain their best fit in this offense.
I am sure the coaches know that the rookies need as much time as possible to settle in to the one position they intend to play them once the real stuff begins.
Lord knows they have shuffled the current guys around enough to know where to best put them without too much disturbing the newbies in their new roles.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The concern is raised because of the history of this coaching staff.
All three of the highly drafted OLmen from the current GM/HC have been described to us by BoGaine as "4 hole players." or "position flex." The words and actions are lining up in terms of how those guys value and will use players. Personally, I am not going to keep
on this issue of "cross training" when for BoGaine this is an essential job requirement.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
Understood.
One would like to think that if us amateurs are aware of all this then surely the coaches are too. This would mean that they are dealing with whatever issues are occuring within the offensive line such as injuries, illnesses, underperformance etc, the best way they can.
It now depends on the individual fan to believe what he chooses to believe.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
One would imagine that teams across the league would be doing the same things as the Texans - contingent of course upon how settled certain players are in certain positions.All three of the highly drafted OLmen from the current GM/HC have been described to us by BoGaine as "4 hole players." or "position flex." The words and actions are lining up in terms of how those guys value and will use players. Personally, I am not going to keep
One would like to think that OB will put the best possible team with the best chance of winning on the paddock each week.
I understand the aversion to cross training, the possibility we may get jacks of all trades, masters of none.
But we're talking about rookie mini-camp & OTAs. IMO, now is the time to expose them to everything to see where their strengths & weaknesses are. To find out where they will fit best.
& it can only help if the tackles understand what the guards are trying to do & figure out the best way each player can help each other accomplish the one goal.
Now, if this carries on into Training Camp, I agree. It's a problem. But now is the time.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I agree with that except for Howard.
If this guy was drafted to play LT put him at LT and drill that position in as hard as you can.
HaveMercy
Passing Through
As you describe it, that's a reasonable approach. But the way the coaches flip flopped & then flop flipped Davenport and Rankin last year was worthy of Three Stooges Theatre. The coaches seemed to out wit themselves (but not the opposition) in that sequence. So I, for one, will be watching to see how tricky they get this year.
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HaveMercy
Passing Through
But banging my head against the wall gives my face such a healthy glow.All three of the highly drafted OLmen from the current GM/HC have been described to us by BoGaine as "4 hole players." or "position flex." The words and actions are lining up in terms of how those guys value and will use players. Personally, I am not going to keep
That Davenport was basically a rookie... I agree. Doesn't make sense to move him 8n game. But it is not uncommon. Especially not with this team. Kubiak did a good job of keeping the line intact when faced with injury. But Capers & crew did the same thing BO'b did. Oh, my LG is hurt, move the center to RT, RT to RG, RG to LT, the LT to LG & bring in the street FA Center.
I am not saying it's a good idea, or that these coaches know what they're doing. I'm only saying it's too early to gripe about it. This is the offseason. Cross training is the norm... some of our guys are out there playing basketball, hockey, soccer... swimming.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Not talking about responding to injury. Talking about playing them at different positions just to do it. X was played at 4 different positions as a rookie "just because." Then somehow became so entrenched at LG he couldn't be moved for a career LG.
HaveMercy
Passing Through
Maybe I am griping, but it feels to me like I'm just pointing out a past trend that, combined with recent OB comments, could be a cause for concern for now. If cross training Howard and Scharping continues into the preseason while on-field performance shows what they really need is time at their tackle spots, we'll see some real griping.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Bill O'Brien believes it is too early to tell who will start on Texans' offensive line
By: Anthony R Wood | May 10, 2019 8:30 pm ET
It is a known fact that the Houston Texans’ offensive line come Week 1 will look entirely different from the unit that took part in the club’s 21-7 loss to the Indianapolis Colts in the wild-card playoffs.
Given that the Texans allowed 62 regular season sacks in 2018, a league-high, changes were always expected. When they drafted offensive tackles Tytus Howard and Max Scharping in Rounds 1 and 2 respectively of the 2019 NFL draft, it looked likely that given their high selections both may well be starters this year.
However, with both players able to play multiple positions, coach Bill O’Brien is hesitant to unveil his plans for who will start where just yet.
“Tytus will play a lot of left tackle, play a lot of right tackle, but he can play guard, too,” O’Brien told reporters Friday after day one of rookie minicamp at NRG Stadium. “Scharping can do both, too. So, both guys are very smart guys. In the brief time that we’ve them, they’ve picked up a lot of what we’re trying to do. Really sharp guys, good guys, and we’re thrilled to have them. I mean, absolutely thrilled to have them.”
O’Brien and general manager Brian Gaine both highly covet versatility and size in their players. Clearly, both of these traits were part of the decisions to bring in Howard and Scharping this draft. While this may be helpful come game day when it comes to moving players around if injuries occur, could they become yet more examples of players who are a “jack of all trades” but masters of none? Only time will tell.
By: Anthony R Wood | May 10, 2019 8:30 pm ET
It is a known fact that the Houston Texans’ offensive line come Week 1 will look entirely different from the unit that took part in the club’s 21-7 loss to the Indianapolis Colts in the wild-card playoffs.
Given that the Texans allowed 62 regular season sacks in 2018, a league-high, changes were always expected. When they drafted offensive tackles Tytus Howard and Max Scharping in Rounds 1 and 2 respectively of the 2019 NFL draft, it looked likely that given their high selections both may well be starters this year.
However, with both players able to play multiple positions, coach Bill O’Brien is hesitant to unveil his plans for who will start where just yet.
“Tytus will play a lot of left tackle, play a lot of right tackle, but he can play guard, too,” O’Brien told reporters Friday after day one of rookie minicamp at NRG Stadium. “Scharping can do both, too. So, both guys are very smart guys. In the brief time that we’ve them, they’ve picked up a lot of what we’re trying to do. Really sharp guys, good guys, and we’re thrilled to have them. I mean, absolutely thrilled to have them.”
O’Brien and general manager Brian Gaine both highly covet versatility and size in their players. Clearly, both of these traits were part of the decisions to bring in Howard and Scharping this draft. While this may be helpful come game day when it comes to moving players around if injuries occur, could they become yet more examples of players who are a “jack of all trades” but masters of none? Only time will tell.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Interesting to see how the Eagles are treating Dillard at this time only at LT.............but firmly in the camp of cross training their OLinmen.
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Eagles hint at cross-training Halapoulivaati Vaitai at guard
ByJEFF KERR May 10, 4:31 PM
The Philadelphia Eagles may still have some use for Halapoulivaati Vaitai after all. With the selection of Andre Dillard in the first round, the Eagles will be shuffling some pieces along the offensive line thanks t a surplus of offensive tackles.
Dillard will strictly stay at left tackle, creating some openings at the position that once belonged to Vaitai and Jordan Mailata. Vaitai was the No. 3 tackle on the Eagles the last three seasons, but that position may go to Dillard since the Eagles are keeping him at left tackle. The Eagles have cross-trained Vaitai to play both tackle positions, so he would still be the top backup to lane Johnson if he goes down with an injury.
For Vaitai to get more playing time, Eagles head coach Doug Pederson hinted at giving him some snaps on the interior of the offensive line. The Eagles are thin at guard, which makes Vaitai a viable option.
"That was part of our plan all along since I've been here is we cross-train a lot of guys," Pederson said. "That's a big part of the success we've had being able to – a guy like [OL] Isaac [Seumalo] for instance. He's played tackle, he’s played center, he’s obviously secure at guard right now.
"But yeah, we cross-train guys and make sure we're covered at all bases. "We're always going to cross-train those guys. Big V [Vaitai] obviously; left tackle, right tackle, vice versa. He's been able to do that, and we’re going to continue to do that with those guys."
The Eagles will have to make a decision on Vaitai's future after the season as the 2016 fifth-round pick has his rookie contract set to expire. Vaitai would be the successor to Peters at left tackle, but still can find a spot on the Eagles offensive line even with the development of Mailata and Dillard.
The Eagles plan to keep Dillard at left tackle and cross-train Mailata at both tackle spots, which doesn't affect Vaitai's playing time but he has more combined seasons on the Eagles offensive line than Dillard and Mailata. Training Vaitai at guard would help the Eagles on the interior of the offensive line considering they don't have many experienced backups at that position.
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Eagles hint at cross-training Halapoulivaati Vaitai at guard
ByJEFF KERR May 10, 4:31 PM
The Philadelphia Eagles may still have some use for Halapoulivaati Vaitai after all. With the selection of Andre Dillard in the first round, the Eagles will be shuffling some pieces along the offensive line thanks t a surplus of offensive tackles.
Dillard will strictly stay at left tackle, creating some openings at the position that once belonged to Vaitai and Jordan Mailata. Vaitai was the No. 3 tackle on the Eagles the last three seasons, but that position may go to Dillard since the Eagles are keeping him at left tackle. The Eagles have cross-trained Vaitai to play both tackle positions, so he would still be the top backup to lane Johnson if he goes down with an injury.
For Vaitai to get more playing time, Eagles head coach Doug Pederson hinted at giving him some snaps on the interior of the offensive line. The Eagles are thin at guard, which makes Vaitai a viable option.
"That was part of our plan all along since I've been here is we cross-train a lot of guys," Pederson said. "That's a big part of the success we've had being able to – a guy like [OL] Isaac [Seumalo] for instance. He's played tackle, he’s played center, he’s obviously secure at guard right now.
"But yeah, we cross-train guys and make sure we're covered at all bases. "We're always going to cross-train those guys. Big V [Vaitai] obviously; left tackle, right tackle, vice versa. He's been able to do that, and we’re going to continue to do that with those guys."
The Eagles will have to make a decision on Vaitai's future after the season as the 2016 fifth-round pick has his rookie contract set to expire. Vaitai would be the successor to Peters at left tackle, but still can find a spot on the Eagles offensive line even with the development of Mailata and Dillard.
The Eagles plan to keep Dillard at left tackle and cross-train Mailata at both tackle spots, which doesn't affect Vaitai's playing time but he has more combined seasons on the Eagles offensive line than Dillard and Mailata. Training Vaitai at guard would help the Eagles on the interior of the offensive line considering they don't have many experienced backups at that position.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Vaitai is a vet going into his 4th season and is a backup.
Interesting situation they've found themselves in. Vaitai seems to have proven himself a player, just not a starting LT. They've got solid starters at both tackle position & couldn't pass up Dillard, who they believe to be their LT of the future (for now anyway).
We are not in that situation.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
He doesn't even know what position they'll play. Of course he doesn't know who's starting.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I do understand that, but I still have to take note of Pederson stating that it's always been part of the plan since he got there in 2016......something that has led to their success, and that he will continue cross training the OL.
Evidently, Dillard has had no experience at "versatility" on the OL and Pederson for that reason is trying to get him concentrated on something he has at least attained some semblance of familiarity.
From May 10 Philly Enquirer:
Early on in Friday’s drills, offensive line coach Jeff Stoutland was standing over Dillard as the tackle took a three-point stance, something he never did in Washington State’s air-raid attack. Dillard seemed to find it comfortable enough.
“I can do that,” he affirmed.
Earlier, Eagles coach Doug Pederson said the team likes to cross-train all its offensive linemen, eventually, but he said Stoutland would hold off on doing that with Dillard, who has always played left tackle.
“Andre is different. We're just trying to get his feet wet with the playbook and get him moving around,” Pederson said. “At this time, we're just going to kind of keep him where he is at and let him play there.”
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I was just making an observation. I had not seen that article & found it very interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Interesting. I've heard this mentioned. I have a very, very high level of understanding of college football. I know some of the terms, I know it's different. This is hard for me to comprehend. An OL graded among the best prospects in this class, never in a 3 point stance.
Great athlete, I'm sure. But he sounds every bit, if not more a "project" than Howard & Sharping.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Right. That won't be determined until halftime of game 1.
Or is that just for QBs?
Whether a team "reached" for a player or got "value" for a player is entirely subjective. Personally (you know, from my subjective POV), I don't see any reaches in the Texans 2019 draft.
As for the "experts", I believe they are all employed by professional football teams. I don't consider a talking head in the media to be any better than some of the posters on here. Just look at how Mike Mayock did with the Raiders. Most are giving them a flat out F. I think post graft grades are silly, but it's interesting to see so many give them an F. We will see in a few years.
The AiRaid system was a huge knock on Dillard with me. I don't think those guys generally translate well to the NFL.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I believe that the Texans felt exactly that.................i.e., Dillard was more of a project.
Straight from the horse's mouth:
Draft reports touted his athleticism and pass-blocking ability but noted that Dillard always lined up in a two-point stance in head coach Mike Leach’s air-raid offense. He also didn’t get much work as a run blocker.
“At the end of the day, it’s football. It’s not going to be a huge deal,” Dillard said. “The run blocking will come. I’ve showcased that I can do it, at the Senior Bowl. When I got down in a three-point and drove people off the ball, it felt natural to me, even though I had never been in a three-point stance in my entire life.”
NFL.com gave Dillard a 6.20 grade, indicating an “instant starter,” but if Peters stays healthy this year at age 37, that probably won’t be the case. Dillard, who said he grew up watching Peters, indicated this would not be a problem. (At any rate, drafting Dillard surely means this will be Peters’ final go-round.)
“They’re a great, veteran group of players. … Whatever the team needs me to do, I’m going to do,” Dillard said. “Starting would be cool, but being drafted is cool. I’m going to do whatever they want me to do. I’m ready to roll.”
He said he has always played left tackle but is willing to learn the other side
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Aaron Wilson:
There have been questions on where both Howard and Scharping fit up front in the offensive line. O’Brien cleared up on where they would start out for the Texans to get them ready for the season.
"I would say that both of those guys, Tytus Howard and – now, Tytus will play a lot of left tackle, play a lot of right tackle, but he can play guard, too,” O’Brien explained. “Scharping can do both, too. So, both guys are very smart guys. In the brief time that we've them, they’ve picked up a lot of what we're trying to do. Really sharp guys, good guys, and we're thrilled to have them. I mean, absolutely thrilled to have them."
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The wording pretty much tells me that Howard and Scharping will mostly, if not entirely, play at the tackles....................."can play guard" does not sound to me that they intend to play them at that position (especially Howard).
Besides one guy from rotoworld who were the 'most' that gave the Raiders/Mayock a flat out F?
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I kind of liked the Raiders draft.
I like Farrell more than most. Got the best RB in the draft. A S that is the surest tackler in the draft.
Mullen and Johnson are 2 very promising CB's. Crosby is a athletic DE that it may take a couple of yrs to develop. I dont really care for this pick, but we will see.
Moreau reminds me so much of Heath Miller, an outstanding blocker with sure hands and sneaky athletic.
What's not to like about Renfrow in the slot?
I know nothing about Bell
Overall a foundational draft that sets them up after next yrs draft/FA they should be ready to roll in their 1st season in Vegas. I would call this a very solid draft.
Do you think Peters will stay healthy all season? If not Dillard was an outstanding pick.
Yet he started at LT and played well on the Eagles SB winning team. He's better than Davenport for an example. The Eagles really do invest in their OL.
The Eagles dont cross train guys in their rookie yrs. They put them at 1 spot and let them get their feet wet. Then start cross training them in yr 2.
Run blocking is much easier to do and by yr 2 I'm sure Dillard will be a good run blocker.
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beerlover
Hall of Fame
Seems y’all are implying Eagles/Howie Roseman WASTED a pick, trading up for Dillard when in fact Howard was higher on Texans board. Can anyone officially confirm this?
Obviously Eagles graded him higher but let’s say they stood pat and Dillard was still on the board @ 23. How would this board/fan base react when the pick came out as Tytus Howard instead? More or less angry?
Tells me, Texans starting OL will consist of the most versatile, not best specialist players.
Obviously Eagles graded him higher but let’s say they stood pat and Dillard was still on the board @ 23. How would this board/fan base react when the pick came out as Tytus Howard instead? More or less angry?
Tells me, Texans starting OL will consist of the most versatile, not best specialist players.
I just remember when the Texans took Mario when "everyone" wanted Reggie/Vince, when they took Kareem when "everyone" wanted Kyle Wilson, when they took Hopkins when "everyone" wanted Patterson.
I'm surprised they took an OT when "everyone" wanted an OT. I am not surprised they didn't take the one "everybody" wanted.
HaveMercy
Passing Through
I wish the Texans would do it that way, or close to it. No cross training, or just a very little bit, until year two...more like cross preview or cross exposure during the 1st year just so the players and coaches can get a sample taste of what the other positions are like. Either that or none at all. That would let them get the best out of the first year guys at the expense of losing out on some possibly needed position swapping later in the year.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
That's not quite correct. After the 2016 Draft, Seumalo competed for a starting job both at the LT and LG spots, and Vaitai trained and was used as depth behind both LT Peters and RT Lane Johnson.
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
50/50 chance of a healthy season. Last year, he had a very good pass blocking rating of ~92 (after ~97 for years)..........but his run blocking suffered noticeably at 69. I doubt that Dillard becomes a plug and play if Peters unexpectedly bows out. I doubt if he is even able to match the poor run blocking performance.
Gotta agree to disagree with you here. But atleast with those odds people can understand why the Eagles aggressively traded up for Dillard.
Dillard was the most pro ready LT in the draft and if he has to play 5 or 6 games into the season, I predict he will be a serviceable LT at worst. The guys an elite athlete.
How many games and where did they play as rookies?
Read the article CnnD posted. Cross training is an essential aspect of the Eagles regiment. Their approach with Dillard is different. Maybe because he wasn't exposed to anything like an NFL offense. They're working on his stance. We're talking extreme fundamentals here.
Eagles GM Howie Roseman says Dillard will strictly play LT. It’s crazy how the eagles are good at developing OL and they don’t ask their players to play all 5 spots along the OL, instead just master 1.
That’s probably why Gaine didn’t make a move. Dillard is an exceptional LT, and will likely have a very long career in this league, but he’s unproven at the other spots. I am so tired of versatility. Why not just draft studs that excel at one position instead of being mediocre at 3?
That’s probably why Gaine didn’t make a move. Dillard is an exceptional LT, and will likely have a very long career in this league, but he’s unproven at the other spots. I am so tired of versatility. Why not just draft studs that excel at one position instead of being mediocre at 3?