Vance87
All Pro
He did pretty good in the regular season, but bombed in the playoffs.
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Report: Brian Hoyer to be named Texans starting QB
- Thread starter Playoffs
- Start date
He did pretty good in the regular season, but bombed in the playoffs.
banned1976
sleeper mode
Negative waves. You gotta think positive.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Donald Sutherland as Oddball in Kelly's Heroes.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
OK Oddball. Who do you think we are. Moriarty?
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
Unless Manziel/McCown turns out to be shite, and Brian Hoyer turns out to be somewhat less shite yet still not 'Average' in which case time moves on.
Although actually I disagree that the Texans never get it right. I think HWSNBN was the right pick at the time, you need a franchise QB right, but his development was fubar early due to terrible line play, Schaub was a great trade, really good QB who struggled with injuries a few years running early on then had his foot smashed to bits in a freak one so didn't quite fulfill his potential. And although the guys we've had since haven't set the world alight, the franchise hasn't dropped anchor on the wrong guy who's going to set us back 5 years.
It's mostly all good decisions when you think about it it's just been painful to watch.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
No, better digging would have revealed Carr was a 9-5 player. Nothing wrong if you want to set up your life that way but not at NFL QB. The OL didn't do him any favors but his lack of dedication did him in.
Schaub was the only decent QB decision we've made and the only above suck QB we've had.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I believe the exact opposite. I think the only sensible pick at the time was Peppers. I thought so then and nothing has changed to make me think otherwise. Like cak said Carr was a 9-5 player who you might have been able to get away with for a short time dropping him in the middle of a stacked team but who you could never build around and regardless he was not destined to spend a long time in the league. He lacked the necessary desire and dedication to continue to grow and have a lengthy career.
OK, I should have said something more like "almost always get it wrong". It's true sometimes they get a great LT or we get an awesome DE. We make some good decisions and so do they. Where QB is concerned though, not so much.
That's true, but I don't know how the Texans could have known that at the time. Overall, I just don't think they were good at evaluating QBs. Carr, Ragone, Henson. They didn't know a good (or bad) QB when they saw one. That could end up being the Achilles' heel of this organization.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Trust me guys, I really hate being the voice of reason in this conversation. I do not want to defend Hoyer. I don't like him and I'm not exactly sure he's even an upgrade over Fitzpatrick.
But anybody who is using this Cleveland stuff against him is just wrong and likely only wants to hate him because their guy Mallett couldn't beat him out. His 10-6 record as their starter is easily the best of any QB they've had since the franchise returned. The next best is Derek Anderson at 16-18. That makes him BY FAR the best QB in that regime's nearly 20 year history.
In 2013 they were 3-0 in the games he started and 1-12 in games started by Campbell and Weeden. In 2014 they were 7-6 in the games he started and 0-3 in games started by Manziel and Shaw. Now, that isn't exactly a list of All-Pro QB competition, but in his two years there the Browns were 10-6 with him and 1-15 without him. .........And then they let him walk.
Some of you guys look at that and say, well he must suck something awful if even the freakin' Browns don't want him. When the truth is really that the Browns' management is AWFUL. They let him walk because they are STUPID. They drafted Johnny Manziel in the first round! And when Johnny couldn't beat out Hoyer for the job they just hand it to him! What does he do with that? He proceeds to **** the bed and look like an absolute joke. So what do the Browns do? They let the best QB in their history walk and bring in a guy with a 18-34 record (generally on better teams than Hoyer got to play with) to replace him.
This isn't some guy who couldn't hack it on the Browns. If that were the case then I would agree with the line of thinking. What it actually is, is that the Browns chose to move on from him. And judging a player's value by the personnel decision-making of the worst front office in the NFL isn't exactly a good idea. Do I think that Hoyer is suddenly going to become some great QB and lead us on a deep playoff run? No, I don't. Do I think he is the best QB on our current roster and gives us the best chance to be successful this year? Yes, I do.
I'm not saying you guys have to be all rosy and pump sunshine. But some of you guys are so butthurt about Mallett not winning the job that it's actually making you hate the guy who beat him. The guy who is likely going to be our starting QB for the majority of the season. You don't have to like the guy (I personally don't), but you're a fan by choice. I'll never understand why people hang around a team and consider themselves fans, and yet all they do is constantly b*tch and moan. I can't imagine how miserable of a fan experience that must be, even by Houston sports fan standards.
But anybody who is using this Cleveland stuff against him is just wrong and likely only wants to hate him because their guy Mallett couldn't beat him out. His 10-6 record as their starter is easily the best of any QB they've had since the franchise returned. The next best is Derek Anderson at 16-18. That makes him BY FAR the best QB in that regime's nearly 20 year history.
In 2013 they were 3-0 in the games he started and 1-12 in games started by Campbell and Weeden. In 2014 they were 7-6 in the games he started and 0-3 in games started by Manziel and Shaw. Now, that isn't exactly a list of All-Pro QB competition, but in his two years there the Browns were 10-6 with him and 1-15 without him. .........And then they let him walk.
Some of you guys look at that and say, well he must suck something awful if even the freakin' Browns don't want him. When the truth is really that the Browns' management is AWFUL. They let him walk because they are STUPID. They drafted Johnny Manziel in the first round! And when Johnny couldn't beat out Hoyer for the job they just hand it to him! What does he do with that? He proceeds to **** the bed and look like an absolute joke. So what do the Browns do? They let the best QB in their history walk and bring in a guy with a 18-34 record (generally on better teams than Hoyer got to play with) to replace him.
This isn't some guy who couldn't hack it on the Browns. If that were the case then I would agree with the line of thinking. What it actually is, is that the Browns chose to move on from him. And judging a player's value by the personnel decision-making of the worst front office in the NFL isn't exactly a good idea. Do I think that Hoyer is suddenly going to become some great QB and lead us on a deep playoff run? No, I don't. Do I think he is the best QB on our current roster and gives us the best chance to be successful this year? Yes, I do.
I'm not saying you guys have to be all rosy and pump sunshine. But some of you guys are so butthurt about Mallett not winning the job that it's actually making you hate the guy who beat him. The guy who is likely going to be our starting QB for the majority of the season. You don't have to like the guy (I personally don't), but you're a fan by choice. I'll never understand why people hang around a team and consider themselves fans, and yet all they do is constantly b*tch and moan. I can't imagine how miserable of a fan experience that must be, even by Houston sports fan standards.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
So your vote would be solidly in the "The Browns making bad decisions triumphs over the Texans historical penchant for bad decisions in the case of Brian Hoyer" category I presume.
Outstanding! I hope you're right and Hoyer, with a better team around him proves to be if not the next franchise QB out of nowhere then at least much better than he was in Cleveland once he gets a running game of any competence alongside him. I'm not going to panic or judge him early if the Texans can't run the ball and become one-dimensional. That even hobbled the great Case Keenum back in 2013 so if it happened to Case it could happen to anyone.
By the same token, I don't think you can attribute all of the Browns "success" to Hoyer. There's a certain element of "blind squirrel finds nut" to both Hoyer and the Browns at the time. And Hoyer would have never lost his job to Manziel had he continued to perform at an adequate level. Was Hoyer part of the 10-6 success the Browns had? Yes, he was a part. But was he the driving force? I'm not so sure.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I'm sure of one thing. We're about to find out!
Right you are. And I don't know if Hoyer should carry the baggage or the plaudits over from Cleveland. This is a different team with a different offense. O'Brien likes the guy. So he's getting his shot.
You've got a lot of stuff in that post. I value your opinion, I really do. But I think you've made far too many assumptions to reach many of your conclusions.
1st is that many of the guys complaining about starting Hoyer are not the guys who constantly bch & moan about everything. Many, like me, are bchng & moaning because the Texans are doing the exact same thing we did last season. Starting a QB nobody wanted as a back up.
It's hard for most rational people to accept that, as our organization doing it's due diligence of putting together the best 53 they could. It's akin to announcing we've signed Tim Tebow & will start him week 3. Doesn't matter how much you prepare & train him... he's still Tebow.
Only difference is that Hard Knocks would have thought Tebow was worthy of some camera time.
Another assumption is that the Browns decision alone shaped our opinion. It isn't. Just like Fitzpatrick was cut by the Rams, the Bills, & Tennessee... Hoyer was released by three teams that could use a decent back up at the very least... four if you count the Patriots. Patriots, Steelers, Cardinals, & the Browns. The Browns actually had him under contract & cut him.
The Cardinals not wanting him means more to me than the Browns cutting him.
Now, I've actually tempered my anger so far, extended a modicum of trust... until I see at least two regular season games. If we don't see what I believe to be the "full play book" my hopes for this organization knowing where the fck the "right track" is will take a serious blow.
If OB babies & protects Hoyer the way he did Fitzpatrick I'll be convinced they don't care about the "right track."
I understand "doing the best they could with what's available" but why couldn't Yates run that remedial offense we ran last season? Or Case, or even Savage? If Mallett can't run it, why in the check is he here for a second year?
If we're not running a multiple offense, then why didn't we keep OD? Aj? Myers? These guys were winning games in the NFL long before O'Brien was, but they're gone, so we can bring in Fitzpatrick & Hoyer.
If we're playing "three yards & a cloud of dust" offense, y'all can start calling me steelTKtexans..or TKexian. Or First... well, let's not go there.
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Hervoyel
BUENO!
Lets see what happens before we going and doing all that. We just need to see what happens. I'll ***** with the best of them if it comes to that but right now I want to see him play some football for our team, in our system, with our players.
What are we going to do if Hoyer blows up and starts looking really, really good? Then we'll have to argue over whether it's real or a mirage/fluke.
Just once I'd like to have a problem like that on my hands going into a season.... or coming out of one.
What are we going to do if Hoyer blows up and starts looking really, really good? Then we'll have to argue over whether it's real or a mirage/fluke.
Just once I'd like to have a problem like that on my hands going into a season.... or coming out of one.
bah007
Hall of Fame
So your vote would be solidly in the "The Browns making bad decisions triumphs over the Texans historical penchant for bad decisions in the case of Brian Hoyer" category I presume.
Outstanding! I hope you're right and Hoyer, with a better team around him proves to be if not the next franchise QB out of nowhere then at least much better than he was in Cleveland once he gets a running game of any competence alongside him. I'm not going to panic or judge him early if the Texans can't run the ball and become one-dimensional. That even hobbled the great Case Keenum back in 2013 so if it happened to Case it could happen to anyone.
No I never said that. I'm only combatting the idea that's caught on in this thread that Hoyer was some guy who just wasn't good enough for the Browns. He's the best QB they've ever had. And they let him go because they stupidly used a first round pick on a guy that sucks and they're eventually gonna have to find out what they have in him. He wasn't the 54th best player on the team. They picked Manziel over him and there is no reason to keep both because they have invested in Manziel as the future of the franchise. That says a lot more about the Browns than it does Hoyer.
My vote would be that OB is not responsible for the QB failures that happened before him, so the historical inability of the Texans to shore up the QB position has no bearing on his decision to start Brian Hoyer.
I have stated my opinion previously. Hoyer is not going to be a franchise QB. Neither is Mallett. The only reason they are here is to give OB reasonable performance at the position until he finds his guy. When or who that will be, I have not a clue.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I've made no claim that he was the driving force behind whatever success they had. But there is no debate that in their near 20 year existence, he has by far outperformed every other QB that has been there.
And Hoyer never "lost" his job to Manziel in the sense that people are claiming. His performance declined as the season wore on but he was still the starter until the Browns were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. Only then did Manziel get the start, because the Browns had nothing else to play for and figured they should see what they had.
bah007
Hall of Fame
The Texans do seem to be going the same route at QB that they always do. But that's where the anger should be directed at. The crazy thing is that if Mallett had won the job everything would be all roses around here. But instead of being mad at Mallett for not being better, or being mad at the team for not providing us with better options, there are people here who have actually developed a hate for the guy that did win the job.
It really seems to be the Mallett or bust crowd that I am talking to. By the tone of a lot of the posts around here (not yours, btw), it seems to me that there are people here who are actually hoping that Hoyer goes out there and sucks and we lose. There are people here who care more about Mallett being the starter over Hoyer than about the Texans winning.
I cannot imagine being in that place, where I would be actively or secretly rooting against my own team because they didn't choose the QB that I wanted. Sounds miserable.
For as many teams he's been on, and as much as he seemingly sucks, Hoyer's record as a starting NFL QB is still 12-7. It seems likely to me that OB thinks he can get enough out of him to maintain a similar winning percentage and possibly make a run at the playoffs.
I'm not a Hoyer guy. I'm not a Mallett guy. I'm not even a Savage guy. But I am an OB guy. I do believe in OB. I think he knows what he's doing. I guess that makes it easier for me to accept his decision, even though I am also frustrated about the apparent lack of a long term plan. We can't just keep bringing in a new placeholder every year.
GoCoogs
Waterboy
You lost me at the Tim Tebow comparison. Come on man, Hoyer starting isnt akin to Tebow starting game 3.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Most of these negative expectations are based on what? The hodge podge of OL experimentation during training camp? Come Sunday, our OL will consist of Newton at RT, Brooks at RG, and Brown at LT. Jones at OC is unproven, but his added bulk at the position should help prevent penetration up the middle. The only real question mark is Adams at LG.
Our running game may not be as effective with Foster out, but I don't expect the total collapse being projected by some and pass protection could well be as good as last year.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Blue had limited carries in the preseason games. Isn't he the kind of back who'll be more effective the more carries he has? If Blue has 20 carries (plus) and less than 50 yds for the game, then there's reason for concern. But if he has 80 - 100 yds then I'll consider that to be effective, and allow Hoyer to be more effective.
Put me down for a win Sunday.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Hope you're right. I want to believe and a win (with some contribution from the RB's) Sunday will help.
Uhm, You're right. Tebow started in playoff games before. Well, Hoyer hasn't.
So technically we shouldn't be comparing Hoyer to Tebow at all.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I like your overall point about the focus being properly on the Texans instead of Hoyer, but your recitation isn't fair either. They clearly dumped Hoyer this year for McCown and the Manziel rock was getting kicked down the road.
I think that's where the great majority of the ire is directed.
It's not instead. Mallett represents one thing only - the unknown. The team's decision not to bring in different or better is front and center.
Now confusing this (and i don't want to rehash, I'll stand by Lucky's recap) is the claim there was any sort of fair competition, which died an ignoble death with what is going to become a running joke in Texans' lore 'the hero of the closed practices.'
I certainly don't hate Hoyer. I just think he is what he is, just like Fitz last year - not good enough. I expect to get a Fitz like bump to still not good enough. I hope to be wrong.
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WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I think his point there was that the Browns were clearly just Browning at that point (i.e. Cleveland dumping Hoyer for McCown says more about Cleveland than it does Hoyer). Personally I agree with that sentiment. McCown was coming off a 2-14 season as a starter where he was one of just two QB's to have an even worse statistical season than Hoyer. That move just screamed incompetence.
So were they "Browning" when they picked up Hoyer initially and name him the starter for most of the year? Or do they just do that were the narrative needs to fit feeling optimistic about Hoyer?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
As did bringing in Hoyer to all but eternally optimistic Texans fans.
Much like Tennessee being Tennessee when they signed Fitz, but when he came here, OB is a qb guru.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Actually...
Weeden in 2012 and Couch in 2001 had very similar stats to Hoyer. And surprisingly Campbell, McCoy, Frye and Dilfer all had QBR's that were in the same ballpark as Hoyer.
Would I say his season was better than all of those though? Yes. Not "by far", but yes.
However, Derek Anderson in 2007 had a 57%, 3800 yard, 29:19 ratio and 82.5% QBR stat line that blows away anything Hoyer did last season.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I think a good decision by the Browns is like a top 10 single from Rush.
Rush: They always do what they want to do and sometimes at random points in time that happened to coincide with what was popular but Rush changed nothing about what they did or how they did it. Then, popular tastes moved away and Rush continued.
Cleveland: They're always "Browning" but every once in a while they unintentionally do something that actually makes sense while doing that. Then, life in the NFL goes on for them and their random series of idiotic moves resume producing the kind of results that we have come to expect from them.
I get your point there, but man that's some dirty pool to compare Rush to the Browns just to make Brian Hoyer look like more than a mediocre wet fart.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Never said he was more than a mediocre wet fart (sure hope he is). Just said that if he is then it's not like Cleveland knew that when they released him. They just do what they do.
Rush does excellence and the rest of us don't always recognize it.
Cleveland does suck and they don't always recognize it.
Basically no move Cleveland makes is of any benefit to anyone else because they have a ****/shinola problem there.
bah007
Hall of Fame
See, this is where I disagree. I don't think bringing in Hoyer screams incompetence. And I would consider myself far from eternally optimistic. Perhaps I am more optimistic about OB than you are. But I'm not unrealistic either.
OB brought in two guys he is familiar with to compete for the job and went with the one he thinks is more likely to play well. Hoyer won't win OB a Super Bowl but he won't get him fired while he searches for the guy that will win him a Super Bowl either.
Obviously, we all wish that guy were already on the roster. But he's clearly not, unless it is somehow Savage. Coaches only get a limited amount of time. OB will eventually have to tie the knot with someone and make him "the guy". But just because he hasn't yet doesn't mean it's not going to happen.
I think a lot of the anger is due to impatience. The fans want results now and they want OB to just take a random shot on someone. But if OB does that and misses he is gone. So he's waiting until he's sure. If he waits too long he'll be gone anyway.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
They brought him in as a 3rd string backup. Then they ended up releasing Jason Campbell and Brandon Weeden because they went a combined 6-23. Hoyer then went 10-7 with that same roster. They then let him walk as a FA and brought in a guy that had just gone 2-14. That's called 'Browning'.
Speaking of trying to spin a narrative......
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Dumping a guy who went 6-6 last year for a guy who went 7-7? No, it's not the same thing. McCown went 2-14 last year. That's a pretty severe downgrade.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Not to mention the coaching, gm & personnel changes these guys have made over the years. They are the same team that fired Bill Belichick .........1 year removed from him taking them to the playoffs with Kelly frickin' Holcombe at that.
No, that team moved to Baltimore.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
.
Adams has thus far looked pretty pitiful at LG.......in fact, there hasn't been anyone at that position that hasn't so far. Jones may hold his own, but from what I've seen, it's still a big question mark. Brown may be affected by his caveman hand, potentially both by pain and inability to grasp. And hopefully he will not find the need to "cheat" to his right to compensate a weak LG performer as he did with Wade Smith, leaving himself more vulnerable to the outside rush. Then there is the factor of this OL's chemistry, as it has been treated like a patch work experiment before and throughout TC. Without full, in-concert choreography of OL personnel, a weak running game can be expected to be made weaker, if not also creating protection problems.
All of these things may magically come together for the KC game, and we hopefully come out of this game with a win. But I can't imagine that they don't create an unwelcome hindrance on the way.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol, right you are...but Modell had given assurances that Belichick would be able to coach them after the transition...then he renigged..then in 1996 the team formerly known as the Browns drafted Jonathan Ogden & Ray Lewis with staff holdovers from Belichick's coaching team ...mainly Ozzie Newsome & as we know those 2 were cornerstones of that franchise for decades.
So they only kind of wanted him before they didn't want him anymore? Wonderful.
Sounds just like when he Patrioted, or Steeled, or Card'd, all before his succesful Browning.
Really I hope he proves us doubters wrong. I actually belive in OB. I just think he's a tad sentimental about an old jalopy of his.
Yep. I feel pretty bad for the Browns because they are not the same team I remember growing up. I used to love watching them in the playoffs in the early 90's.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Not goimg to quibble ovet a word i didn't pick. The point was the general reaction to both moves, McCown to the Browns and Hoyer to the Texans, has been on par - some variation of bleh.
Well yeah. Demeaningly call it random shot all you want, but between QBs that have moved, could have moved or been drafted, someone we have passed on is going to emerge. No it's not an easy call but waiting for your porridge to be just right while the rest of your larder goes bad is poor decision making.
There's irony in this 'impatience' defense on the QB situation. OB preaches urgency, pace, tempo. Wait until things are just right, safe, sure thing, not so much
You can make it just last year if you want and put it only on wins, i.e. skew as much as possible, but the moves are similar. 2013 McCown played at a level Hoyer has never sniffed. Their career ratings are .7 apart.
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Good point. I didn't even see it, But you're 100% correct.
banned1976
sleeper mode
We see our role, as essentially defensive in nature.
Moriarty was a mechanical genius.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
A very unhappy mechanical genius always despairing over what he didn't have. Perhaps there are many fans who have taken on that role.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Nitrofish
Let The Big Fish Eat!
lol...
I was not suggesting his opinion makes any difference. It was more of a surprise to hear him say it. While I respect his opinion, I find it hard to have the same kind of confidence in Hoyer. I guess we will get some kind of an idea in a few hours.
I hope so... just thought it was funny. I've been watching NFLN this off season & this was the first I heard him mention it. Coming from him, it means something.