CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Which again emphasizes the importance of snap to release (ala Mallet), rather than the timed release of the ball from his hands.
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Report: Brian Hoyer to be named Texans starting QB
- Thread starter Playoffs
- Start date
Which again emphasizes the importance of snap to release (ala Mallet), rather than the timed release of the ball from his hands.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Hervoyel
BUENO!
We're going to need him to be focused and kind of pissed about losing to Hoyer because at some point Hoyer is gonna get broken and miss some games. I just have no confidence that he'll be able to play all season. He doesn't respond well to pressure and teams are going to feed it to him non-stop as long as that works. Sooner or later they're going to hurt him and that's when Mallet needs to be ready to play.
I'm working on the Browns/ Bills game.
Will get back to this some other time.
Still have all the Texans games.
I had some notes on the games somewhere; should be able to find them.
Should be an interesting comparison.
While I'm on the Bills game, one quick preview here.
All-Pro LT Joe Thomas did not have a good game (and that's an understatement.)
badboy
Hall of Fame
That is like asking a hungry man to say grace before he cuts into a steak.
Right, they're both important, for different things. You want to be able to get the ball out on time to beat bitzes & to some extent, not give the defense time to recover... say a CB/LB makes a wrong read & takes a wrong step.
But you also want a quick release, so DBs/LBs can't key on you patting the ball, or a hitch in your throw.
I think the way Mallett holds the ball chest high, both hands, & the way he times his throws with his feet, makes it very hard for a defense to key on anything.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Or in Hoyer's case, asking a hungry death row prisoner to put some worchestire sauce on that steak to make it a more tasty last meal..
badboy
Hall of Fame
and like the washing machine you speak of, there is always an agitator in the middle
The characterization of the length of each drive is irrelevant to the point that the defense failed to stop two long drives (70 and 90 yds) when they could have stepped up and won the game.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Wasn't my point that the D didn't bear some fault. I highlighted the erroneous description to illustrate 76 has lost his objectivity in his review. Hence the line about fudging on mundane details.
Then he made the Schaub comment and this example became superfluous.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
You're basically characterizing the use of a completely subjective term as "erroneous", and then apparently expecting folks to go along with it because you said so. First, in addition to using the term "long" to describe the three drives, his original post on this subject gave the length in yards of each one of the three, so if it was an intentional effort to skew perceptions, he didn't do it very well. Second, I (subjectively) have no problem at all characterizing a 70 yard drive as "long", so I perceive you to be the one erroneous in the characterization of it as average. Then again, it's completely subjective, so who cares. Finally, from where I sit, you accusing someone else of losing his objectivity in regard to this specific topic is the ultimate "Pot calling the kettle Black" scenario.
Without the agitator, the clothing just stews in its own juices.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
These are the types of statements that just drive me insane.
#1, pressure bothers every qb it's just a matter of how much it takes..
#2, If teams continued to "all-out" blitz us like you're saying, I'm pretty damn sure OB's got something in the playbook to counter that.
#3, Whose to say that Mallet or Savage would handle it any better?
Getting the ball out fast is only like 1/3 of the battle against a blitz....Mallet in the 2nd game damn near had a pass picked off largely b/c the defensive player saw it coming. Those guys on the other side of the ball get paid too.
Nitrofish
Let The Big Fish Eat!
Just look at the tape. Hoyer is bad against the Blitz, much like Keenum was and does not make the D pay. Mallett is better against the blitz and makes them pay when they do it, so they stop doing it so often. You can see Mallett identifies blitzes, and where they are coming from than does Hoyer.
Let's recap. QB's that do not make a defense pay for blitzing them will see even more blitzing. QB's that make the defense pay when blitzing see less blitzing.
Your scenario only works if both QB's do not recognize the blitz before it too late.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Savage - 5/7 58 yards Probably had the best night of the bunch from an efficiency standpoint, ie completion percentage/YPC/YPA.
I hate how all the responsibility is throw to the QB to handle the blitz. It might have helped if we showed we can run a screen and that is not just on the QB.
NVM
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol, you look at the tape. The only play Hoyer was really even under pressure that I remember from the saints game was when 1 guy came free virtually unblocked & he just barely got it off when he threw it out of bounds....& that could've just as easily been explained by the defense disguising their blitz well &/or a missed assignment by the o-line. If I recall, the WR Hoyer was trying to get it to didn't exactly run a sight adjusted short timing route which indicates he was expecting an intermediate to deep pass to be thrown as well.
And again, getting the ball out fast is only a small part of what has to be done to beat a blitz consistently. protection has to be set right and more importantly the QB & WR have to be on the same page. How many times have we seen a qb throw an int b/c he read the blitz & threw the ball expecting 1 route & the WR ran another route b/c he didn't read it?
Keenum running around behind the LOS trying to look deep taking 10-12 yard losses and getting passes repeatedly batted down has next to nothing to do with this.
Disguising their blitz?! They had nine guys in the box and no one within a zipcode of the defensive backfield. All well before the snap.
Dude ...
Dude ...
Nitrofish
Let The Big Fish Eat!
Watch the play again. The db in the slot comes off his man before the snap and it's clear he is going to blitz. Hoyer does not see it until after he rolls out. He should have identified that blitz pre snap. The receiver reads it right and runs hot, but when he sees Hoyer roll out, he breaks back the other way and Hoyer is off target even though his man is open.
Besides I am not just talking about his play in this game. I am talking about his starts with the Browns as well.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I'll go back and watch it & let you know....
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
And there was a receiver wide open in the middle of the field that Hoyer never saw.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I don't expect anyone to go along with it. It was my comment. It's done in my book. They Hoyer vs good Schaub comment proves my point in spades.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
Whether Hoyer can effectively handle a blitz has nothing to do with Mallett or Savage. Why do you do this? Every point anyone makes about Hoyer that you perceive as negative, out comes the "Mallett and Savage" line.
Who gives a flying f*** about Mallett or Savage. They are backups. When is Hoyer going to learn to recognise and react faster to the blitz? OB has a game plan? You don't think he has installed anything about blitz/pressures so for this year? In OB's own words, he needs to f***ing speed things up.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Ok, If it's the play I think you're talking about lol. for 1, that happens to a lot to qb's on roll outs...Mainly b/c db's pick up on the routines of qbs when they come to the LOS and scan the field, check the safeties, cb cushions etc....seen it happen a lot with schaub. It was a well timed blitz by the db probably b/c he picked up on Hoyer's routine & knowing that the ball is going to be snapped (play clock) very soon. 2nd of all, the WR he was throwing to was Martin & him slanting in and then breaking out like he did wasn't some adjustment to Hoyer...it's an actual route (whip route) likely incorporated into that play to sell the appearance of the run. Yes, Hoyer just missed him due to pressure in his face, but that kind of stuff happens.
Apart from that, we're talking about 2 different plays....the play I'm talking about is 2nd qtr, 2nd and 10 with 12:09 to go in the game..& my initial assertion was correct..Saints d-player came in unblocked on an all out blitz (RB took the wrong guy on blitz pick up) & Hoyer had to get rid of it before he wanted to...Strong is 12 yds down the field...not a sight adjusted route..Aikman specifically calls that out in the broadcast.
In any event, neither of the plays say any more about how Hoyer is gonna do against the blitz in this system, with this personnel and caoching than say Hopkins' long catch & his no TD catch.......both of those were against the blitz too.
I remember that play the way Mr.Text does. The corner did a great job waiting till Hoyer moved his eyes over center before coming off the receiver. Hoyer shouldn't have been expected to sniff that one out. He did a good job getting rid of the ball, or maybe he was lucky it wasn't picked off. Hard to say in a preseason game. If the game mattered, someone probably would have put forth more effort to get that ball.
But it wasn't intercepted so we'll call it good.
But yeah... nothing we've seen in the preseason shows Hoyer to be better than Mallett, or Mallett to be better than Hoyer. But watching what Hoyer did last year, down the stretch, when the games mattered... we deserve better.
We don't know what Mallett would look like under pressure. But we know what we saw from Hoyer last year was not good enough.
Hopefully we our pass protection is good enough that we won't have to find out. Or having WRs taller than 5'10" will help Hoyer make something out of nothing. Those are the only questions I have. On his own, I know when the play breaks down, he's only slightly better than Matt Schaub, who wasn't very good when the play broke down.
I liked the way he handled the free Blitzer more than I liked the way he handled that bootleg. Yeah, the defender was in his face, but Hoyer is no sloth. He panicked & three the ball. Didn't look like much thought went into the throw & we're lucky the Saints defense sux.
I think he has the athleticism to have bought enough time to throw the comeback to Hop on the deeper route. But he tried to hit the crossing route where a better defender would have taken that one to the house.
Another example, imo, that he isn't capable of processing info fast enough.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Trust and believe that I don't want to be in here defending this guy...It just irks the hell outta me that people are nitpicking at this guy for stuff like this...which goes on with all qbs since none of them are perfect. It's just irrational to me b/c whether folks want to admit it or not, the nitpicking is b/c he was named the starter over Mallet. Not saying its everyone, but its clear for a few...
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Onn the bootleg I just think he tried to get it to martin but he didn't have time to square his shoulders b/c the defender was in his face and the throw was off...nothing more to it other than that.
On the free blitzer play, he really had no shot..Dude was coming with a full head of steam & Hoyer hadn't even finished his drop...he would've had to abandon all semblance of timing on that play to even get a decent throw off down to strong..which i'm fairly sure he wouldn't have. If he tries to extend it like you say, he was definitely going to get sacked for an 8 yd loss. 1 guy's running full speed forward, another guy is caught between a back pedal and a side shuffle. Physics my man. I think he was trying to do exactly what he did & throw it away.....it just wasn't as pretty as we and i'm sure he would've liked.
True. But why defend it? Naming Hoyer the starter, to me, isn't very different from bringing bad Schaub back to start & never letting the other QBs you brought in play. If you were going to do that, why bring them in at all?
We paid Fitzpatrick $3M last year. Mallett $3M this year... couldn't we have used that money to keep OD on the roster, or Chris Myers, or bring in a couple of fast WR/KRs. I could have done without the "cut Keenum, sign Keenum, cut Keenum thing."
Why go out of your way to sign guys who can't play for millions of dollars when we already had guys who can't play on rookie deals?
What we're doing is like drafting Mariota, but signing RG3 to start.
Right. That's the problem I have with those throws. Neither ball should have been in play. Either throw it at the receivers feet, or over their heads. Anything else is likely picked off, ala Mr.PickSix.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I don't think they went out of their way to do anything for Mallet. They offered him a contract to come back and play, but clearly from the numbers of that contract they didn't feel like they were in desperate need to resign him.
& who said anything about Mallet not being able to play? Obviously he wanted him back b/c he believes he can play on some level. It's just maybe OB isn't as high on his level of play as some here seem to be....Think about it. OB has seen this kid in practice and game situations for a good while now; in NE and here & still opted to start Hoyer. This isn't a 1st year coach getting his guy & handing him the keys sight unseen.
The bottom line is It's OB's job to put the best team on the field & he's doing that. & like I said in a previous post, the best team includes having a competent back up..whether it be Hoyer, Mallet or Savage.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I didn't have a problem with the bootleg throw...the free blitzer throw though...
Are we talking about the "closed practices"? Sorry I'm having a hard time believing that one. & yeah, I'm not a pro talent scout, or coach, but there are many out there who said Hoyer sucked last season, & two seasons before that, the season before that, & three years prior when they didn't draft him.
If I had to guess, there's a picture out there involving Bill O'Brien & a goat & Brian Hoyer knows where it is.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
No getting around it, Hoyer sucked last year and his career to date has largely been underwhelming. That's not at all in question. However where I and obviously OB come in at is how much of his career is/was him & how much of it is/was the personnel around him and circumstances he was in. The most common argument people are using is his season last year in Cleveland. Well, the Browns have had like 5 coaches and like 20 starting qbs since they've come back; that trend seems destined to continue this year based on who they have on their roster right now at qb. In any case, the organization has hardly been a nurturing environment for any player let alone a qb..a position that needs the support of the owner, HC and fans.
Not making excuses for him, but I don't think he's as horrible as many are making him out to be...Don't get me wrong though, i'm not expecting him to come in and light it up either. As I've said, I could easily see him putting together a 2008 Matt Cassel season...or any number of Alex Smith's post 2009 seasons; you know not great, but not horrible either, just middle of the road.
Not making excuses for him, but I don't think he's as horrible as many are making him out to be...Don't get me wrong though, i'm not expecting him to come in and light it up either. As I've said, I could easily see him putting together a 2008 Matt Cassel season...or any number of Alex Smith's post 2009 seasons; you know not great, but not horrible either, just middle of the road.
I more or less agree with you. & I'm hoping for that as well. But, if that's the case, why didn't we just sign Matt Cassel last year?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
- Probably b/c OB's never really worked with Cassel before. OB's tenure in NE didn't start until 2007 as an offensive asst. Cassel's last season in NE was 2008 and OB was a WR's coach at that time.
I don't know Cassel's availability last year, but maybe OB placed more emphasis on trying get in here and change culture instead of trying to secure a qb at that time for a team that was gonna be bad no matter what he did. Gotta remember, he's still trying to get things settled at Penn state, get his coaches lined up, draft scouting, family situated...etc. Dude had a lot on his plate when he took over.
But for all we know he may have gone after Cassel had Hoyer not been released this year.
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I'm rewatching Sunday's game and the Texans O ( both Hoyer and OL/TE's missed blocks on safety blitzes so often that it's gonna be a real issue come Sept. 13th against the Chiefs. They have a good enough pass rush, but with this glaring weakness, OMG!!!
On the one play where Hoyer really got rushed (12:05 mark second quarter) it appears that Hoyer picked up the blitz side but the whole left side blocked down and left 2 free rushers. Prosch picked up the only one he could. LT appears to have blown it on that play. Hoyer had no chance. LG ended up chipping on tackle while Hoyer was planted. 63 ain't gonna cut it at LT. Way slow off the ball. Watching every play in sol-mo, Hoyer did better than I thought, watching it on TV. Still missed on several obvious blitzes.
On the one play where Hoyer really got rushed (12:05 mark second quarter) it appears that Hoyer picked up the blitz side but the whole left side blocked down and left 2 free rushers. Prosch picked up the only one he could. LT appears to have blown it on that play. Hoyer had no chance. LG ended up chipping on tackle while Hoyer was planted. 63 ain't gonna cut it at LT. Way slow off the ball. Watching every play in sol-mo, Hoyer did better than I thought, watching it on TV. Still missed on several obvious blitzes.
This is my thought on the play.
Everybody feels free to disagree.
2-10-HOU 48
(12:11) 7-B.Hoyer pass incomplete short left to 11-J.Strong [45-H.Kikaha].
Texans in 21 personnel, TE in right slot, 2 receivers split wide.
Saints showed zero coverage (no safety) with a bear front (6 men on the LOS).
One defender each on the TE and the two wide outs.
The two LBs on the second level were checking on the FB and RB if they release during the blitz. And they did head toward either side where our FB and RB started heading.
There's no disguise whatsoever.
A veteran like Hoyer would have been blind if he didn't see it.
He even shouted out communications to Strong on the left side and point to the 2 defenders overloading the back side
.
I have no idea why no adjustment was made.
The RB was blocking all the way; whoever he picked up depends on the D call; the QB is responsible for the other one.
Hoyer was looking at Strong the whole time.
One thing that makes sense to me is that Strong probably didn't remember the offensive adjustment on such a Bear call; after all, I don't think he ever saw it in college.
There are a few variations of the D call and different adjustment needs to be made depending on the particular personnel grouping the offense is in.
The permutation can't be simple.
There's not enough time in TC to learn everything.
Strong probably thought that the call was for the FB to pick up the other blitzer and his assignment was to beat the RCB deep, taking advantage of the zero coverage.
It wouldn't surprise me if the two HCs (from both teams) had agreed beforehand to set up certain situations for their own teaching moments to the players, especially the rookies.
You're saying this might've been a test? Hoyer failed. miserably. if so
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
To put a QB in harm's way..........potential annihilation?............I seriously doubt that.
His coaches would know.
It wasn't the first time the Saints sent the blitz.
They actually brought more previously.
On one occasion, they even had more blitzers than we had blockers.
On this play, we had enough blockers.
I def agree about the blitzes . The Texans didn't do very well against them.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Mallet made more NFL throws. His TD pass was a laser in traffic. I don't really like the ball that Hoyer throws. I don't know why yet, I just don't.
Actually, I think they did well, except for that one.
I had broken down all the passes from Hoyer.
And I think we got two good receivers in Mumphery and Strong to develop for the future.
They are way ahead of Posey, Martin, and Lestar Jean.
Sure, Mallett always has that laser.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Kendall Lamm #63 rookie should not make team.
What game were you watching? It wasn't 2015 sAints vs Texans preseason
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Throwing the ball to where our guy OUGHT to BE is what got Shaub in trouble. Unfortunately, the defense knew that and our receivers didn't leading to pick sixes. Reacting to blitzes takes being on the same page and reacting as a team.
The QB certainly has his role, but so does the rest of the team, including the coaches.
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