Raiders reportedly trying to acquire Palmer/UPDATE/aquired

[Vinny]

Raiders didnt have to beat a Manning led Colts team for the past decade. Not refuting the other points in your post.

no manning in our division and we are in second place. Excuses are for losers.

to be the best team...you gotta beat the better teams. we are 1-8 in our last nine road games and winning teams don't lose to us. That just sucks no matter how much propaganda and rationalizations anyone can throw down.

 

[b0ng]

I'm just saying teams have taken young QB's and brought in vets to man the ship till they are ready. Texan fans making fun of the Raiders is kind of funny....this last decade the Raiders have 3 Div banners. Texans? 0 The Raiders just beat us to boot.

I'm not big on being a homer and I understand your groupthink on the Raiders. Its the easy way to fall in line with the common opinion.

Keeping in mind that, how good the Texans are currently or in the past has little to nothing to do whether this trade was a good idea or not. If the Texans did a move like this for a guy like Carson Palmer I would be calling them idiots too homie.

 

[Vinny]

Keeping in mind that, how good the Texans are currently or in the past has little to nothing to do whether this trade was a good idea or not. If the Texans did a move like this for a guy like Carson Palmer I would be calling them idiots too homie.

We don't have a raw project qb and an injured Campbell. Looks like they want to win, now. I'm not sure what formula the Texans are using....cause we don't win.

perhaps one day.

 

[b0ng]

We don't have a raw project qb and an injured Campbell. Looks like they want to win, now. I'm not sure what formula the Texans are using....cause we don't win.

perhaps one day.

If the Raiders were a good QB away from being a contender then okay, win now.

The Raiders are not just a good QB away from "winning now". Their defense has been pretty bad throughout the 2011 season and I'm not really sure how Carson Palmer is going to improve that.

 

[thunderkyss]

If the Raiders were a good QB away from being a contender then okay, win now.

The Raiders are not just a good QB away from "winning now". Their defense has been pretty bad throughout the 2011 season and I'm not really sure how Carson Palmer is going to improve that.

The Patriots D is pretty suspect as well. Carson Palmer~ Tom Brady.... I know. But the Raiders have a lot of speed & talent at WR, a decent to very good OL & Darren McFadden.

This just might work. Over/Under, I'd take the over. Carson isn't too old to QB, McFadden, Murphy, Moore, Heyward-Bay..... they'll at least challenge for that division title for the next 4-5 years.

Heck if the Chargers don't fall apart.

 

[Vinny]

If the Raiders were a good QB away from being a contender then okay, win now.

The Raiders are not just a good QB away from "winning now". Their defense has been pretty bad throughout the 2011 season and I'm not really sure how Carson Palmer is going to improve that.

Well, they just beat the Texans whom everyone presumes is a playoff team. They did that with crappy Campbell. Palmer is a huge upgrade.

 

[b0ng]

Well, they just beat the Texans whom everyone presumes is a playoff team. They did that with crappy Campbell. Palmer is a huge upgrade.

While there are some who consider the Texans a playoff team, you can see that they did in fact lose to other "playoff" teams because their defense was bad (Buffalo, New England).

Palmer is definitely a huge upgrade to Jason Campbell, since Campbell isn't going to be taking any more snaps this year.

 

[Cerberus]

The Raiders are currently sitting with a terribly ranked defense and most of their corners not named Stanford Routt have been either injured, or not good at all.

Not true, they have Chekwa and DVD, two young players that are starting to show they belong in the NFL. And though Chekwa is banged up, it isn't like he's not coming back to play.

QB is not the only hole on that roster, it's just the only one getting filled this season and next offseason.

The Raiders pretty much are set at all of their positions for years to come. The old men currently are Seymour, Henderson, Carlisle and Barnes. That's it.

EDIT: And if the Raiders just have to have a QB out of the Bay Area why not try to draft Matt Barkley the next draft? Win Now is what got the Raiders into everything that happened after the '02 SB, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down any time soon.

Also, Hue Jackson apparently has full control over personnel.

Hue, Mark, Amy, Tom and a couple others are involved in making personnel decisions, not just Hue.

EDIT2: And for the goofy raider fans saying "Oh we'd just blow the first rounder anyway lol jamarcus" isn't that something that should get front office personnel canned? Why would you trust these people to make even bigger decisions than who to pick in the first round of the draft, if they can't even do that properly?

JaMarcus was a concensus pick if you remember, it was a matter of should the Raiders go with Calvin Johnson or JaMarcus; who knew he was going to develop a codiene addiction? Now, I will say that two first-round picks for ANY team generally means one bust and one good player. No team I know of hits it with their 1st rounder every year.

 

[Cerberus]

The Raiders signed him to a 4 year $43 million dollar contract. That is silly money for a guy who has had probably the two worst injuries a QB could have (Elbow tendons, ACL tears) and has not even been an average or above average QB in more than a few years.

Oh yeah, and they basically mortgaged their future for the guy. Mortgaged their future when the QB class for this upcoming season looks absolutely spectacular.

Throwing the ball around yesterday, the people in Oakland were looking at each other and saying "now that's a QB", or at least according to Al Saunders.

You don't like the trade, and that is fine because you aren't a Raider fan; however, the Raider fans generally love it because we know that Boller isn't the answer.

 

[b0ng]

Not true, they have Chekwa and DVD, two young players that are starting to show they belong in the NFL. And though Chekwa is banged up, it isn't like he's not coming back to play.

Why are the Raiders giving up so many yards and points to opposing teams then? Who are your LB's besides McClain (Who isn't doing very well this season anyway)? Why is Chris Johnson always hurt and then when he's not hurt he's ineffective? The depth you guys have behind Huff and Branch is kind of bad, and it's hurt you guys in a few games already. Quinten Groves is a joke of an LB, and Kamerion Wimbley is not as explosive rushing the passer as he once was (Which is kind of silly since you guys play the 4-3, and he generally is a pass rush type guy).

The Raiders pretty much are set at all of their positions for years to come. The old men currently are Seymour, Henderson, Carlisle and Barnes. That's it.

If this is set, then you guys are ****ed for awhile. You need upgrades in the back portion of your defense including LB's, and lets not even get into what happens if people on your DL start crapping out.

Hue, Mark, Amy, Tom and a couple others are involved in making personnel decisions, not just Hue.

http://mike-freeman.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/32804869

There was little doubt that up until his death Al Davis was still running the Oakland Raiders. Every signing, every move, every thought process went through him. When he died, there were questions about who would run the team.

We now know for certain, according to sources inside the team and in the NFL, that Hue Jackson has complete control of all personnel decisons involving the Raiders.

Team executive Amy Trask is handling certain aspects of the team but, for now, Jackson is the guy making practically all of the football decisions for the Raiders on and off the field. I'm told that will continue for the imeediate future, probably through the season.

It's a stunning turn for the Raiders. A rookie head coach is now running the football operations of one of the most historic franchises in all of sports, replacing a legend.

JaMarcus was a concensus pick if you remember, it was a matter of should the Raiders go with Calvin Johnson or JaMarcus; who knew he was going to develop a codiene addiction? Now, I will say that two first-round picks for ANY team generally means one bust and one good player. No team I know of hits it with their 1st rounder every year.

Uh the Raiders were laughed at roundly for taking Jamarcus over Calvin Johnson. Jamarcus was a good prospect but there were so many questions about his work ethic and his love of the game that by the time draft day came around that year most pundits and NFL fans were saying that the Raiders would do the dumb thing and take Jamarcus, which they did, because apparently Al Davis never got over having Daryl Lamonica and was always looking for the next Bomber.

And the first round is not bust/hall of famer. There are plenty of solid players that are taken in the first round that fall into neither category, and now with how the rookie pay scale works, even if you do get a bust of a 1st rounder, it's not going to cripple your franchise.

 

[Cerberus]

I'm just saying teams have taken young QB's and brought in vets to man the ship till they are ready. Texan fans making fun of the Raiders is kind of funny....this last decade the Raiders have 3 Div banners. Texans? 0 The Raiders just beat us to boot.

I'm not big on being a homer and I understand your groupthink on the Raiders. Its the easy way to fall in line with the common opinion.

Well, one thing I find funny is this:

Raiders trade 2012 1st and 2013 2nd (maybe a 1st, we'll see) for Carson Palmer, and it is being touted as a stupid trade.

Atlanta traded 2011 1st, 2nd, 4th and 2012 1st and 4th, just to move up 21 spots in the 2011 draft so they could pick Julio Jones, and that was touted as a blockbuster trade!!! So, lets look at that again:

Palmer = 1st + 2nd

Jones = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th

Raiders = stupid

Falcons = brilliant

So tell me people, how does that work? Raiders traded for a QB that is tied with Manning and Brady for having a 100+ QB rating in 9 consecutive games, and was good enough to knock SD out of the playoff race last year; yet they are stupid. The Falcons get an unknown quantity in Julio Jones since he is a rookie, and give up a king's ransom for a WR, yet there are seen as brilliant. I don't know, but it seems like there has been a drinking, and the mediots are the ones serving it up.

 

[Cerberus]

If the Raiders were a good QB away from being a contender then okay, win now.

The Raiders are not just a good QB away from "winning now". Their defense has been pretty bad throughout the 2011 season and I'm not really sure how Carson Palmer is going to improve that.

Huh? You are aware that statistics are for losers, right? I showed awhile back why the Raiders statistically weren't looking good, and that is because of the big play runs that skew their numbers. The important number to look at is not ypc given up or all that other crap, it is the wins and losses; they are 4-2 and that has a lot to do with their defense. They have the deepest DL in the NFL, and a bunch of young studs in the defensive backfield, including Tyvon Branch who many (Peter King for one) felt should have made the Pro-Bowl or All-Pro team (can't remember which, and there is a difference). So, just because you (b0ng) may not know the Raiders' defensive players, doesn't mean they are bad. Cincinnati supposedly has the best defense right now, can you name their players other than Rey M.?

 

[Cerberus]

Why are the Raiders giving up so many yards and points to opposing teams then? Who are your LB's besides McClain (Who isn't doing very well this season anyway)? Why is Chris Johnson always hurt and then when he's not hurt he's ineffective? The depth you guys have behind Huff and Branch is kind of bad, and it's hurt you guys in a few games already. Quinten Groves is a joke of an LB, and Kamerion Wimbley is not as explosive rushing the passer as he once was (Which is kind of silly since you guys play the 4-3, and he generally is a pass rush type guy).

If this is set, then you guys are ****ed for awhile. You need upgrades in the back portion of your defense including LB's, and lets not even get into what happens if people on your DL start crapping out.

Wow, that is a lot to cover in one response, but I'll try. The LBs for the Raiders are Aaron Curry, Rolando McClain, and Kamerion Wimbley. Curry played quite well last week, thank you very much. McClain is playing just fine, but he does seem to be thinking more in Bresnanhan's defense than reacting, but that may be a matter of him getting accustomed to the scheme. As for Wimbley, he didn't pan out for the Bengals like they wanted and the Raiders got him before last season when he posted 9 sacks for them. LBs are fine, other than Ricky Brown was IR'ed, but he was a back-up and a ST player.

http://mike-freeman.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/32804869

Fine if you want to listen to a mediot. If you would rather hear it from the "horse's mouth" take a listen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A_xW2VVBD8&feature=player_embedded

Uh the Raiders were laughed at roundly for taking Jamarcus over Calvin Johnson. Jamarcus was a good prospect but there were so many questions about his work ethic and his love of the game that by the time draft day came around that year most pundits and NFL fans were saying that the Raiders would do the dumb thing and take Jamarcus, which they did, because apparently Al Davis never got over having Daryl Lamonica and was always looking for the next Bomber.

John Clayton of ESPN stated that Russell's workouts at the 2007 NFL Combine that Russell's arm strength and size impressed several teams, and predicted that it would "be hard to pass up on Russell at #1."

Or you can listen to what Kiper had to say, the youtube video includes Berman talking about Russell, Carr, Palmer, Vick, etc.:

Jamarcus Russell’s gonna immediately energize that Raider Nation, that fanbase, that football team- on the practice field, in that locker room- three years from now you could be looking at a guy that’s certainly one of the elite top five quarterbacks in this league.

You’re talking about a 2-3 year period once he’s under center. Look out because skill level that he has is certainly John Elway like.

. . . http://youbeenblinded.com/revisiting-mel-kipers-jamarcus-russell-prediction/5489

I guess the Raiders could have taken Brady Quinn instead, huh!

And the first round is not bust/hall of famer. There are plenty of solid players that are taken in the first round that fall into neither category, and now with how the rookie pay scale works, even if you do get a bust of a 1st rounder, it's not going to cripple your franchise.

Didn't say it was HOFer or bust, but that half tend to be busts or certainly don't live up to expectations. So once again, I'd rather have a bird in hand than two in the bush.

 

[Dutchrudder]

Well, one thing I find funny is this:

Raiders trade 2012 1st and 2013 2nd (maybe a 1st, we'll see) for Carson Palmer, and it is being touted as a stupid trade.

Atlanta traded 2011 1st, 2nd, 4th and 2012 1st and 4th, just to move up 21 spots in the 2011 draft so they could pick Julio Jones, and that was touted as a blockbuster trade!!! So, lets look at that again:

Palmer = 1st + 2nd

Jones = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th

Raiders = stupid

Falcons = brilliant

So tell me people, how does that work? Raiders traded for a QB that is tied with Manning and Brady for having a 100+ QB rating in 9 consecutive games, and was good enough to knock SD out of the playoff race last year; yet they are stupid. The Falcons get an unknown quantity in Julio Jones since he is a rookie, and give up a king's ransom for a WR, yet there are seen as brilliant. I don't know, but it seems like there has been a drinking, and the mediots are the ones serving it up.

You really need to cut out this 'playing the victim' crap. The Raiders have been lambasted for some of their moves over the last decade, but the Falcons were not universally lauded for trading a bunch of picks to get JJones. Here's a post from one of our guys talking about it and others in the thread concurred:

I disagree. I hear they wanted Green more and tried to move up to 4 but missed out with the Bengals. I think the Falcons are gambling big time with their future. And if they were 1 or 2 players away from the SB they wouldnt have been run out of their own building by the Packers.

Bottom line is they were desperate and desperate people do crazy stuff. Jones is not the 6th best player in my book and the ransom they paid was ludicrous.

Personally, I'm happy the Falcons did that trade because the Browns got the best deal possible (my secondary team is the Browns). They are rebuilding, and need more picks to help fill in the gaps. I don't think it was a smart trade by the Falcons at all, but it's not nearly as stupid as this trade for Palmer is. He's 32 and was mediocre in his prime. He's not getting any better.

 

[b0ng]

Well, one thing I find funny is this:

Raiders trade 2012 1st and 2013 2nd (maybe a 1st, we'll see) for Carson Palmer, and it is being touted as a stupid trade.

Atlanta traded 2011 1st, 2nd, 4th and 2012 1st and 4th, just to move up 21 spots in the 2011 draft so they could pick Julio Jones, and that was touted as a blockbuster trade!!! So, lets look at that again:

Palmer = 1st + 2nd

Jones = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th

Raiders = stupid

Falcons = brilliant

So tell me people, how does that work? Raiders traded for a QB that is tied with Manning and Brady for having a 100+ QB rating in 9 consecutive games, and was good enough to knock SD out of the playoff race last year; yet they are stupid. The Falcons get an unknown quantity in Julio Jones since he is a rookie, and give up a king's ransom for a WR, yet there are seen as brilliant. I don't know, but it seems like there has been a drinking, and the mediots are the ones serving it up.

I have blasted that trade on here or elsewhere. Why would you want to blow that much of your load on what isn't even the top WR in a draft class. I thought that Atlanta's problems didn't stem from needing a player to catch passes from Ryan. They paid waaaay too much and identified a part of their team that wasn't the biggest need. Much like what I think about this trade.

I think the only way this trade could be a success is if the Raiders end up not minding giving up a first rounder in 2013 and Palmer collects the $43m from his contract.

 

[Mr teX]

Well, one thing I find funny is this:

Raiders trade 2012 1st and 2013 2nd (maybe a 1st, we'll see) for Carson Palmer, and it is being touted as a stupid trade.

Atlanta traded 2011 1st, 2nd, 4th and 2012 1st and 4th, just to move up 21 spots in the 2011 draft so they could pick Julio Jones, and that was touted as a blockbuster trade!!! So, lets look at that again:

Palmer = 1st + 2nd

Jones = 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th

Raiders = stupid

Falcons = brilliant

So tell me people, how does that work? Raiders traded for a QB that is tied with Manning and Brady for having a 100+ QB rating in 9 consecutive games, and was good enough to knock SD out of the playoff race last year; yet they are stupid. The Falcons get an unknown quantity in Julio Jones since he is a rookie, and give up a king's ransom for a WR, yet there are seen as brilliant. I don't know, but it seems like there has been a drinking, and the mediots are the ones serving it up.

Well lets look at this shall we...

The Falcons....

J. Jones...another #1 caliber option opposite a bonafide #1 in White....oh yeah, you've got arguably the GOAT at TE controlling the middle. Solid, accurate qb throwing the ball. Just an all around great fit for ATL & Jones no matter how you slice it.

#2, The falcons truly are only 1-2 players away having gone 13-3 just last year.


The raiders...

Gave away 2 of your most valuable picks for a guy who's been mediocore at best his last 3 seasons....always hurt...... who'll be what 32 this year....& who quit on his previous team & likely won't be ready to contribute for at least a few weeks....So you're gonna have to hope Boller doesn't throw away a couple. If you guys miss on this (very high probability)....they'll be no recovering for at least 2 years b/c you have zero to offer from a talent perspective or draft picks. which reminds me....

you dropped a 3rd for another Qb in Terrelle Pryor just this past year.


Your main guy Mcfadden hasn't really been able to stay healthy throughout this career & your WR's are pretty much unproven & your defense isn't that great.

Definitely not 1-2 players away.

The franchise is also in flux to boot.

so, that's why the falcons move is looked at as brilliant & you guys' was looked at as stupid.

 

[Cerberus]

Well lets look at this shall we...

The Falcons....

J. Jones...another #1 caliber option opposite a bonafide #1 in White....oh yeah, you've got arguably the GOAT at TE controlling the middle. Solid, accurate qb throwing the ball. Just an all around great fit for ATL & Jones no matter how you slice it.

#2, The falcons truly are only 1-2 players away having gone 13-3 just last year.


The raiders...

Gave away 2 of your most valuable picks for a guy who's been mediocore at best his last 3 seasons....always hurt...... who'll be what 32 this year....& who quit on his previous team & likely won't be ready to contribute for at least a few weeks....So you're gonna have to hope Boller doesn't throw away a couple. If you guys miss on this (very high probability)....they'll be no recovering for at least 2 years b/c you have zero to offer from a talent perspective or draft picks. which reminds me....

you dropped a 3rd for another Qb in Terrelle Pryor just this past year.


Your main guy Mcfadden hasn't really been able to stay healthy throughout this career & your WR's are pretty much unproven & your defense isn't that great.

Definitely not 1-2 players away.

The franchise is also in flux to boot.

so, that's why the falcons move is looked at as brilliant & you guys' was looked at as stupid.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Cerberus]

You really need to cut out this 'playing the victim' crap. The Raiders have been lambasted for some of their moves over the last decade, but the Falcons were not universally lauded for trading a bunch of picks to get JJones.

Victim? Who's playing the victim? I just stated that many thought the Falcon trade was great, but when compared to the Raider trade that was deemed awful it doesn't make sense.

BTW, DL Tommy Kelly stated that Carson Palmer doesn't look rusty to him, and that the ball is coming out quickly.

VittorioTafur Vittorio Tafur
Tommy Kelly: "(Palmer) didn't look rusty to me. Ball was getting out of there pretty quick."

And Rich Gannon on the trade:

VittorioTafur Vittorio Tafur
Rich Gannon on Palmer: "He's 31. I was 34 when I first rolled out to Oakland in 1999 ... I think he's got a lot of good football left in him

I think barring injury, the Raiders have a QB for the next 5-6 years and that Darren McFadden will help Palmer and vice-versa.

 

[b0ng]

And Rich Gannon on the trade:

Gigantic difference between Rich Gannon 1999 and Carson Palmer 2011: Raiders didn't give up a 1st and another 2nd that can turn into a first in the proceeding drafts to get Gannon, he was a FA. If Gannon had flamed out in Oakland it would've been bad, but not team cripplingly so. There is way more pressure on Palmer to succeed right now and I hope that he does that, but until he does, this is going to look like a really bad and desperate maneuver by Oakland.

BTW: Palmer is starting against the Chiefs this Sunday. If it hasn't been noted in this thread yet.

 

[Dutchrudder]

Victim? Who's playing the victim? I just stated that many thought the Falcon trade was great, but when compared to the Raider trade that was deemed awful it doesn't make sense.

Acting like every transaction made by the Raiders in the last decade is considered wrong by the sports world simply because the Raiders made the move, is playing the victim's role. You've made two incorrect statements in this thread about the sports world's reaction to the Curry trade and now Julio Jones. I don't think anyone is claiming this is a bad trade simply because the Raiders did it, it's because nobody believe Palmer is worth more than a single 2nd at most. The context of it is just humorous given the incredibly silly moves they have made over the years like drafting DHB 7th, and that no-name safety in the second after that because they had good 40 times. It's crazy.

BTW, DL Tommy Kelly stated that Carson Palmer doesn't look rusty to him, and that the ball is coming out quickly.



And Rich Gannon on the trade:



I think barring injury, the Raiders have a QB for the next 5-6 years and that Darren McFadden will help Palmer and vice-versa.

It's possible it can work out, but I doubt he will end up being worth it. As I said earlier, if they don't make the AFC Championship sometime in the next 2-3 years (with Palmer at QB), this will be a massive failure. You don't throw 1sts around for nothing. The Bears did something similar with Cutler, but it actually looks like it's working out. The difference being that Cutler was 1 year removed from a great season and was very young and rather cheap at the time.

 

[b0ng]

 

[Cerberus]

Gigantic difference between Rich Gannon 1999 and Carson Palmer 2011: Raiders didn't give up a 1st and another 2nd that can turn into a first in the proceeding drafts to get Gannon, he was a FA. If Gannon had flamed out in Oakland it would've been bad, but not team cripplingly so. There is way more pressure on Palmer to succeed right now and I hope that he does that, but until he does, this is going to look like a really bad and desperate maneuver by Oakland.

BTW: Palmer is starting against the Chiefs this Sunday. If it hasn't been noted in this thread yet.

A few things. First, the board says there are 7 pages in this string but won't open up the 7th page, so I'm hoping this thread pops up on that page to get rid of the glitch. After all, discussing Raider football with Texan fans is pretty fruitless when it comes down to it.

Second, with regard to Palmer starting against the Chiefs, that is a big "maybe". Those are the reports, but if you listen to the players they are all saying how hard that would be to come in and learn the nomenclature and get the timing down in such a short period of time. Personally, I'd like to see Jackson give Palmer this week (against the Chiefs) and next week (bye) off so he can get the playbook down and build a rapport with his receivers.

Next, with regard to the Raiders appearing desperate to some as opposed to looking for the best replacement available, I give you the people whose job it is to know what is what. No, not the mediots or talking-heads, but those that actually get paid to be correct about football: the vegas odds-makers! So, what do they think of the Palmer acquisition? Well, they apparently like Palmer more than Boller or even a healthy Campbell, because with the acquisition of Palmer the Raiders odds of winning the SB went from 40:1 down to 30:1. And remember, it was only a couple years ago that Palmer was ranked the #3 QB in the NFL behind Manning and Brady!

Now on to see if page 7 pops up . . .

 

[steelbtexan]

Currently a 5th and a 6th.

And conditional supplemental 3rds for ASo/Gallery.

Losing a 1st and a conditional 1st hurts. But if they win in the playoffs it's worth it. If not it isn't. There's no garuntee that they will hit on their 1st rd picks. (JaBust)

They're taking a risk. I like teams that take calculated risks. Some people aren't risk takers, I understand that.

 

[Cerberus]

And conditional supplemental 3rds for ASo/Gallery.

Losing a 1st and a conditional 1st hurts. But if they win in the playoffs it's worth it. If not it isn't. There's no garuntee that they will hit on their 1st rd picks. (JaBust)

They're taking a risk. I like teams that take calculated risks. Some people aren't risk takers, I understand that.

Yep, it is always exciting being a Raider fan; even during the off-season at times. One of the things I love about the Raiders is that they aren't afraid to take chances. They took chances on Plunkett, Matuszak, Alzado, Gannon, Hendricks, Bubba Smith, and others. Sure, sometimes it doesn't work out, like with Larry Brown, MeAngelo Hall, Javon Walker and others, but at least they aren't afraid to make a move to try and improve the team. That was one thing most Raider fans loved about Al Davis, no matter what the outcome was of one of his moves, you at least knew he was trying to improve the team.

With regard to the Raiders' draft for 2012, it now looks like this:

1st - QB Carson Palmer (plus another pick next year)

2nd - OT Joseph Barksdale

3rd - QB Terrell Pryor

4th - QB Jason Campbell

5th - ????

6th - ????

7th - LB Aaron Curry

Then there should be a 3rd round compensatory pick for Aso, and who knows what the Raiders will get for losing former 1st round pick Robert Gallery and TE Zach Miller.

And considering the team if full of young talent from recent drafts, as one KC Chief mediot pointed out, the Raiders could afford to make the move.

 

[thunderkyss]

And conditional supplemental 3rds for ASo/Gallery.

Losing a 1st and a conditional 1st hurts. But if they win in the playoffs it's worth it. If not it isn't. There's no garuntee that they will hit on their 1st rd picks. (JaBust)

They're taking a risk. I like teams that take calculated risks. Some people aren't risk takers, I understand that.

Is Jamarcus the only QB bust in Oakland? Who has held that position over the last decade? Who made the decision to go with those guys? Who made the decision to go with Palmer?

I personally don't like the trade. I think it is very risky, with great upset, but a downside that can really hurt the franchise for years to come. They've already been swimming in irrelevance for the better part of a decade.

I think the chances are good for this to be a win for the Raiders. If that line can protect Palmer like they protected Cambell over the first 4 games of the season. But they failed against our pass rush, they failed against Clevland. Only 4 teams in their next 10 opponents have a better pass rush than the Browns (The Texans are currently third in sacks) so their chances are pretty good, plus if Palmer is sharp he can probably help in that department.

But the drop off from Boller to Campbell, IMO doesn't justify this move. & if Pryor is their future, you could start that transition later this year if Boller didn't pan out, plus address team needs in the upcoming draft(s).

 

[Blake]

no manning in our division and we are in second place. Excuses are for losers.

to be the best team...you gotta beat the better teams. we are 1-8 in our last nine road games and winning teams don't lose to us. That just sucks no matter how much propaganda and rationalizations anyone can throw down.

Talk to me at the end of the season when we have complete regular season records.

I am not trying to make you think a certain way. Just expressing my view of things. Manning and Brady are touted as 2 of the best QB's in the history of the game, and you want to discount one of them being in our division as an excuse...

 

[steelbtexan]

The Raiders haven't done ****....... yet. If they're going to do something, they're going to do something & we can talk about that, then.

The question, is what have they done this year?

Beat the Broncos? woohoo... we beat the coltless Mannings.
Beat the Jets? woohoo... we beat the Steelers
Beat the Browns? woohoo... we beat the Dolphins.
Beat the Texans? woohoo... we beat them three times this year.

Got smoked by the Pats? ... we got beat by the Ravens
Lost a close one to Buffalo?... we lost a close one to the Raiders.

What the heck is so different here that "Oakland" is a good team & the "Texans" are not?

The difference is they have a proactive HC. Who makes moves trying to better his team.

The Texans have a GM/HC that dont make moves to try to better the Team. (See Lloyd) Dont give me Mason, he's basically Walter at this point in his career.

 

[Mr teX]

The difference is they have a proactive HC. Who makes moves trying to better his team.

The Texans have a GM/HC that dont make moves to try to better the Team. (See Lloyd) Dont give me Mason, he's basically Walter at this point in his career.

Get outta here with this nonsense. Had the texans made this deal you'd be screaming from the rooftops about how awful it was & railroading the texans FO even more than you already do.....yet b/c it was a blockbuster move from a different organization you're willing to overlook its stupidity & give them credit...you are unbelievable.

 

[Vinny]

Raiders didnt have to beat a Manning led Colts team for the past decade. Not refuting the other points in your post.

no manning in our division and we are in second place. Excuses are for losers.

to be the best team...you gotta beat the better teams. we are 1-8 in our last nine road games and winning teams don't lose to us. That just sucks no matter how much propaganda and rationalizations anyone can throw down.

Talk to me at the end of the season when we have complete regular season records.

I am not trying to make you think a certain way. Just expressing my view of things. Manning and Brady are touted as 2 of the best QB's in the history of the game, and you want to discount one of them being in our division as an excuse...

They are excuses. Good organizations can lose great players and still win games. When Brady went down a few years ago did the Patriots fall apart? No they didn't. They are a good team. Do they always win the Super Bowl just because they have "Tom Terriffic"? No, good teams find a way to beat them. If you don't produce, you rationalize. All these excuses are rationalizations. Dan Marino was the greatest QB of his era, but he never won a Super Bowl. Because good teams always stopped him. If you build a good enough team, you don't need friggin' excuses.

 

[Blake]

no manning in our division and we are in second place. Excuses are for losers.

to be the best team...you gotta beat the better teams. we are 1-8 in our last nine road games and winning teams don't lose to us. That just sucks no matter how much propaganda and rationalizations anyone can throw down.
They are excuses. Good organizations can lose great players and still win games. When Brady went down a few years ago did the Patriots fall apart? No they didn't. They are a good team. Do they always win the Super Bowl just because they have "Tom Terriffic"? No, good teams find a way to beat them. If you don't produce, you rationalize. All these excuses are rationalizations. Dan Marino was the greatest QB of his era, but he never won a Super Bowl. Because good teams always stopped him. If you build a good enough team, you don't need friggin' excuses.

So I guess we can mark down the Colts as a bad organization. Obviously they cant lose great players and still win games. And when Caldwell reflects on his job as a HC I dont want to hear any "I was missing Payton Manning" excuses. Because you made that quite apparent that those are excuses.

 

[Cerberus]

I personally don't like the trade. I think it is very risky, with great upset, but a downside that can really hurt the franchise for years to come. They've already been swimming in irrelevance for the better part of a decade.

Luckily, you being a Texan fan means it is a moot point whether you like the trade or not; most Raider fans love it. And yes, it is a big-reward/big-risk proposition, but you know that Hue did his homework on Palmer's health and such. If Palmer can get close to being the #3 QB in the League again, like top 10, then this trade is as Dick Vitale put it "a home-run". Just thought it was funny that a basketball announcer would use baseball vernacular to describe the Raiders' football move. Anyway . . .

But the drop off from Boller to Campbell, IMO doesn't justify this move. & if Pryor is their future, you could start that transition later this year if Boller didn't pan out, plus address team needs in the upcoming draft(s).

Hue it trying to win THIS year and not down the road. And yes, the drop off from Campbell to Boller was certainly noticeable; however, the upswing from Campbell to Palmer should also be very noticeable if things work out right. This trade could very well put the Raiders back on the map for the next few years if not longer!

As for addressing team needs in the upcoming draft, they don't really have many spots open or coming open from retiring players. They are a young team, and there are plenty of young up-and-coming players on the roster. Could they use an upgrade here-or-there? Certainly, every team could, but it isn't like most teams have a bunch of pro-bowl players filling every position anyway, so that isn't a major concern. Besides, their last few drafts have been very solid and there is always FA. The draft is not the only way to build a team, although the Raiders have used it lately to lay the foundation for their team, which is currently on the rise.

As for Pryor, maybe he is the back-up plan in case Palmer doesn't work out. If Palmer does work out, maybe the Raider trade him to Houston (since so many here apparently hate Schaub) for their 1st rounder in 2013 and conditional 2nd or 1st in 2014!

 

[thunderkyss]

... but you know that Hue did his homework on Palmer's health and such.

Which leads to questions of tampering again.

If Palmer does work out, maybe the Raider trade him to Houston (since so many here apparently hate Schaub) for their 1st rounder in 2013 and conditional 2nd or 1st in 2014!

Man I wish they had put Jerrod Johnson on the Practice Squad.

 

[Dutchrudder]

Cerb, what are year/stats are you looking at that place Carson Palmer as the #3 QB?

As for Pryor, maybe he is the back-up plan in case Palmer doesn't work out. If Palmer does work out, maybe the Raider trade him to Houston (since so many here apparently hate Schaub) for their 1st rounder in 2013 and conditional 2nd or 1st in 2014!

I know you're joking with this, but everyone in this town would riot on Kirby if that happened. Palmer at least has NFL experience and will probably be decent.

 

[Cerberus]

Cerb, what are year/stats are you looking at that place Carson Palmer as the #3 QB?

That's a good question. I believe, as embarrassing as it is, that it is something that Chris Berman said during the draft when JaBustus Russell was selected. I could be wrong, but I think he was the #3 QB in the NFL back then. I also know that one of my Raider brethren posted a stat about Palmer, Brady and Manning being the only three QBs to ever have a 100+ QB rating in 9 games straight, or something like that.

I know you're joking with this, but everyone in this town would riot on Kirby if that happened. Palmer at least has NFL experience and will probably be decent.

Yes, it was a joke. Seriously though, I don't know why so many people here bust on Schaub, because he really isn't a bad QB. Then again, once you've had JaBustus Russell on your team any QB looks good. For example, my family consists of a bunch of Redskin fans (I was born and raised in the D.C. area - Fairfax) and they ribbed me about the Raiders getting Campbell. As I explained to them, Campbell was 100x the QB Russell ever was in the NFL, so I liked him. So, I guess once someone has had a steady diet of crap-sandwiches, you don't need a roast beef sandwich to make you happy, a PBJ sandwich will suffice.

Someone asked about Jarrod Johnson, and if memory serves me correctly he was the QB from A&M that didn't get drafted, but was drafted by the CFL. Although, in the end I want to say he ended up on the Eagles roster, or some team like that, but it wasn't the Raiders.

 

[Cerberus]

BTW, what a great guy:

http://www.raiders.com/media-vault/...10-20-11/aefdd688-9ce9-4532-8568-0ed89fff6fca

 

[Dutchrudder]

That's a good question. I believe, as embarrassing as it is, that it is something that Chris Berman said during the draft when JaBustus Russell was selected. I could be wrong, but I think he was the #3 QB in the NFL back then. I also know that one of my Raider brethren posted a stat about Palmer, Brady and Manning being the only three QBs to ever have a 100+ QB rating in 9 games straight, or something like that.

Ok, so claiming

And remember, it was only a couple years ago that Palmer was ranked the #3 QB in the NFL behind Manning and Brady!

is complete BS then?

Yes, it was a joke. Seriously though, I don't know why so many people here bust on Schaub, because he really isn't a bad QB. Then again, once you've had JaBustus Russell on your team any QB looks good. For example, my family consists of a bunch of Redskin fans (I was born and raised in the D.C. area - Fairfax) and they ribbed me about the Raiders getting Campbell. As I explained to them, Campbell was 100x the QB Russell ever was in the NFL, so I liked him. So, I guess once someone has had a steady diet of crap-sandwiches, you don't need a roast beef sandwich to make you happy, a PBJ sandwich will suffice.

Lemme put it this way, when the Raiders got Jason Campbell for a 4th, I thought that was a decent trade for both teams. Raiders could give JC a new chance at QB and the Redskins got something out of it too. Palmer strikes me as being the same boat. A guy that didn't produce much with his former team the last couple years, and needs a change of scenery. If the Raiders got him for a 3rd or anything less than that, I wouldn't mock this trade at all. A 1st and 2nd (cause they aren't getting to the AFCC with him) is overpaying in draft picks, and if his contract isn't restructured, then they are overpaying him in $$ too.

Someone asked about Jarrod Johnson, and if memory serves me correctly he was the QB from A&M that didn't get drafted, but was drafted by the CFL. Although, in the end I want to say he ended up on the Eagles roster, or some team like that, but it wasn't the Raiders.

Johnson didn't really pan out in the NFL. He was on the preseason roster with the Eagles after being drafted #1 overall in the UFL draft. I think he's bounced back and forth between them a couple times now. I really don't think he will be any better than Pryor at this point, nor was he all that great in college anyways. Difference is, if you got him, you wouldn't be paying anything. As I said before though, there were cheaper options on the table that could probably give the same results.

In any case, feel free to necro this thread in January if the Raiders do make the AFCC. Laugh and gloat at me, Bong and whoever if it happens. Statistically you have about a 1 in 15 chance of making it. 1 in 10 if you consider the teams that are out of the playoff race.

 

[thunderkyss]

Johnson didn't really pan out in the NFL. He was on the preseason roster with the Eagles after being drafted #1 overall in the UFL draft. I think he's bounced back and forth between them a couple times now. I really don't think he will be any better than Pryor at this point, nor was he all that great in college anyways. Difference is, if you got him, you wouldn't be paying anything. As I said before though, there were cheaper options on the table that could probably give the same results.

Johnson's name came up because we worked him out last week I think. It's in the "Texans working out 4 TE" thread.. click the arrow next to Vinny's name.

From what I could find, the players we worked out are: Richard Quinn, Charles Davis, Wes Lyons, Gijon Robins, QB Jerrod Johnson and WR Wes Lyons

 

[Cerberus]

Ok, so claiming is complete BS then?

Not really. I was just restating something I heard or read elsewhere. Problem is, I can look up statistics on a yearly basis, but I don't have a reference to look up players over a span from X-year to Y-year. So, maybe from 2006-2009 he was, or maybe not. At any rate, I'm not going to get all caught up in that, as it is his play on the field and not in the record books that I'm interested in.

Lemme put it this way, when the Raiders got Jason Campbell for a 4th, I thought that was a decent trade for both teams. Raiders could give JC a new chance at QB and the Redskins got something out of it too. Palmer strikes me as being the same boat. A guy that didn't produce much with his former team the last couple years, and needs a change of scenery. If the Raiders got him for a 3rd or anything less than that, I wouldn't mock this trade at all. A 1st and 2nd (cause they aren't getting to the AFCC with him) is overpaying in draft picks, and if his contract isn't restructured, then they are overpaying him in $$ too.

We'll see. However, after all the 10+ loss seasons that followed the SB loss, most Raider fans are glad to have Carson, because it gives the Raiders a legitimate chance at winning in our minds. What kind of price do you put on winning versus losing? When you look at it that way, the 2 picks aren't that high of a price. It is only if the Raiders slide back to mediocrity or worse does it become a bad deal.

Johnson didn't really pan out in the NFL. He was on the preseason roster with the Eagles after being drafted #1 overall in the UFL draft. I think he's bounced back and forth between them a couple times now. I really don't think he will be any better than Pryor at this point, nor was he all that great in college anyways. Difference is, if you got him, you wouldn't be paying anything. As I said before though, there were cheaper options on the table that could probably give the same results.

That may be stretching it a bit. Thanks for the update on Johnson though, I was hoping he would do well where ever he landed. Oh well.

In any case, feel free to necro this thread in January if the Raiders do make the AFCC. Laugh and gloat at me, Bong and whoever if it happens. Statistically you have about a 1 in 15 chance of making it. 1 in 10 if you consider the teams that are out of the playoff race.

You set the bar a the AFC Championship Game, not me. I'd be happy for now if Carson just led the Raiders to the playoffs. We'll talk about Championships next year or the year after. One step at a time, one step at a time, though a SB would be GREAT (insert Tony the Tiger animation)!

 

[Dutchrudder]

You set the bar a the AFC Championship Game, not me. I'd be happy for now if Carson just led the Raiders to the playoffs. We'll talk about Championships next year or the year after. One step at a time, one step at a time, though a SB would be GREAT (insert Tony the Tiger animation)!

Speculation is that the conditional 2013 pick is based on making the AFCC game. So that's why I set the bar there. Given the state of their division, making the playoffs shouldn't be that difficult. SD's 4 opponents that they have beaten have a combined 5 wins among them. That's not saying a lot for them yet. In fact, if the Raiders don't win their division this year, it would be an outright failure.

 

[Cerberus]

Speculation is that the conditional 2013 pick is based on making the AFCC game. So that's why I set the bar there. Given the state of their division, making the playoffs shouldn't be that difficult. SD's 4 opponents that they have beaten have a combined 5 wins among them. That's not saying a lot for them yet. In fact, if the Raiders don't win their division this year, it would be an outright failure.

Well then tell me, if the Raiders went 8-8 last year after 7 straight years of double-digit losses, and you now believe anything less than winning their division is a failure, what do you think of the Texans? I mean they went 8-8, 8-8, 9-7 & 6-10, before this season, and they didn't have a HC change like the Raiders, nor did they lose their owner/GM, and certainly don't have a new QB. So, how is it that the Raiders are supposed to overcome all of these obstacles to avoid being a failure in Dutchrudder's eyes? And what does that make the Texans in your eyes? And no, it is not a fact that it would be a failure, that is an opinion.

FWIW, I don't know how old you are, but as I've grown older I have become less impatient with regard to football. I've also noticed that most of the posters here that think the Raiders did well happen to be over 40 if not pushing 50 and older, whereas those under 40 tend to think the Raiders screwed-up.

 

[Cerberus]

The trade that sent quarterback Carson Palmer from Cincinnati to Oakland has been widely touted as a "steal" for the Bengals. The reality is that it is also a great deal for the Raiders.

Oakland has a premiere running back in Darren McFadden and talented young wide receivers. With an experienced winning quarterback, their offense could be explosive.

I have been representing NFL players since 1975 and have had 60 first round draft picks as clients and eight players selected first overall. Quarterback drafting is risky. . . just look at the first round of the 1999 Draft. Where are first-rounders Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper and Cade McNown, who should all be in their prime? And if you recall, Ryan Leaf was picked No. 2 overall.

The care and breeding of young quarterbacks is excruciatingly difficult and how many draft picks does it take to insure a franchise quarterback? The other first and second round picks carry the chance of not fulfilling their potential. (Sound familiar?)

Carson was the first pick of the 2002 draft and got the benefit of sitting and learning for a couple of years. From 2004 until 2007, he was among the NFL's statistical elite, with a quarterback rating of 90.1 and a completion percentage of 64.1. His TD to INT ratio was 104-63 during that time span.

Palmer is healthy, seasoned and will have multiple motivations to prove his worth again. I predict he will be very successful. The Raiders made a great deal!

. . . Leigh Steinberg

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-Palmer-trade-wasnt-just-a-steal-for-the-Bengals.html

I know, it sounds like one of my posts which Dutchrudder, b0ng, and a couple others totally disagreed with. So, I figured if they don't believe me, maybe they would believe Leigh Steinberg. Then again, probably not, because they obviously have already made up their minds on the matter. Still, I think it is great that Leigh Steinberg has just made the same points that I have been making and defending here.

Thanks Leigh!

 

[Dutchrudder]

Well then tell me, if the Raiders went 8-8 last year after 7 straight years of double-digit losses, and you now believe anything less than winning their division is a failure, what do you think of the Texans? I mean they went 8-8, 8-8, 9-7 & 6-10, before this season, and they didn't have a HC change like the Raiders, nor did they lose their owner/GM, and certainly don't have a new QB. So, how is it that the Raiders are supposed to overcome all of these obstacles to avoid being a failure in Dutchrudder's eyes? And what does that make the Texans in your eyes? And no, it is not a fact that it would be a failure, that is an opinion.

FWIW, I don't know how old you are, but as I've grown older I have become less impatient with regard to football. I've also noticed that most of the posters here that think the Raiders did well happen to be over 40 if not pushing 50 and older, whereas those under 40 tend to think the Raiders screwed-up.

Lol, typical Cerb. We're talking about the Raiders here, and somewhat the Bengals and you go off on a tangent about the Texans. My feelings towards this trade have absolutely nothing to do with the Texans. I'm going off my evaluation of what I have seen Palmer do in the last couple years and looking at where I think he stands within the NFL. He's a mediocre QB with mediocre stats since he came back from injury. If the Raiders gave up a 3rd or less for him, I wouldn't blame them at all. A 1st and 2nd is too much, but given the Raiders draft history, I guess it's about the same value as a good team's 3rd.

I know I started that last sentence with 'in fact', but since I was the the one posting I thought that was clear it was my opinion and not a fact of life. In any case, it was meant to contrast with my previous thought that they would need to get to the AFCC to make this trade worth it. At this point, winning the division would seem rather easy for them at this point and thus a low hurdle to jump.

Here's the deal though, the expectation is to get to the playoffs and potentially the AFCC given the parameters of the deal. If they don't meet at least the former goal, then I consider the trade a failure. Me. Nobody else from the 'mediots' as you call them, just me. If you want to have a conversation with those 'mediots' that you seem to despise, go email them. I don't write for ESPN or the Oakland Daily Bugle or even the lowly Bleacher Report. Find your favorite one who's all giddy about the deal and feel free to fellate him with your e-praise. I'm sure if you shower them with love and adoration that you will do your part to ensure that Palmer isn't a failure.

 

[Dutchrudder]

. . . Leigh Steinberg

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-Palmer-trade-wasnt-just-a-steal-for-the-Bengals.html

I know, it sounds like one of my posts which Dutchrudder, b0ng, and a couple others totally disagreed with. So, I figured if they don't believe me, maybe they would believe Leigh Steinberg. Then again, probably not, because they obviously have already made up their minds on the matter. Still, I think it is great that Leigh Steinberg has just made the same points that I have been making and defending here.

Thanks Leigh!

Really? You want to play the "This 'expert' said THIS game"? There are tons of sportswriters out there, and plenty will come down on either side of this trade. Do you think there is no one out there that could possibly counter the idea that this is a good trade? I really could care less.

Bong and I, like many others, make our evaluations based on what we have seen and how we value picks vs players. The only person I'll 'believe' on the matter of Palmers worth is Palmer himself as he shows it on the field. That's why I'm leaving this open-ended. Bring this thread up in January and we'll see how he does. For now, I'm firmly in the 'Bengals ransacked the Raiders with this trade' camp.

 

[Vinny]

Really? You want to play the "This 'expert' said THIS game"? There are tons of sportswriters out there, and plenty will come down on either side of this trade. Do you think there is no one out there that could possibly counter the idea that this is a good trade? I really could care less.

Bong and I, like many others, make our evaluations based on what we have seen and how we value picks vs players. The only person I'll 'believe' on the matter of Palmers worth is Palmer himself as he shows it on the field. That's why I'm leaving this open-ended. Bring this thread up in January and we'll see how he does. For now, I'm firmly in the 'Bengals ransacked the Raiders with this trade' camp.

many people feel that Palmer had idiots for wr's his last years of the Bengals. Guys who wouldn't run their routes right, not hustle when the qb was in trouble, not run hard when they weren't the primary read. If you think it was Palmers problem and his alone, then those guys tend to be down on the trade. If you thought ochostinko and TO were part of the problem, you may not see this as a bad trade.

 

[Dutchrudder]

many people feel that Palmer had idiots for wr's his last years of the Bengals. Guys who wouldn't run their routes right, not hustle when the qb was in trouble, not run hard when they weren't the primary read. If you think it was Palmers problem and his alone, then those guys tend to be down on the trade. If you thought ochostinko and TO were part of the problem, you may not see this as a bad trade.

I don't think Cerberus has even brought that up, but it may be part of the reason Palmer hasn't looked good since his last injury. The thing is, Andy Dalton is looking just as good this season. So I dunno, the addition of Green, Dalton and loss of Palmer, TO & Ocho don't seem to be hurting the Bengals all that much. They actually look better, but that may be more due to the defense improving. I dunno, but the last few years, the Bengals always looked like **** under Palmer, so that's what I'm going on.

 

[Cerberus]

Once again, let me re-state that it appears those of us who are 40+ tend to think this trade wasn't a bad deal. The younger "instant gratification" generation tends to think it was a bad deal because it didn't come with a Lombardi attached. So, I'm willing to give Carson Palmer time to become acclimated with his new team and don't feel that the 2012 AFCC game is the deciding factor as to the final status of the trade.

Here's the deal though, the expectation is to get to the playoffs and potentially the AFCC given the parameters of the deal. If they don't meet at least the former goal, then I consider the trade a failure. Me. Nobody else from the 'mediots' as you call them, just me. If you want to have a conversation with those 'mediots' that you seem to despise, go email them. I don't write for ESPN or the Oakland Daily Bugle or even the lowly Bleacher Report. Find your favorite one who's all giddy about the deal and feel free to fellate him with your e-praise. I'm sure if you shower them with love and adoration that you will do your part to ensure that Palmer isn't a failure.

And you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong you are! And for what it is worth, I'll leave the ********-giving to you.

many people feel that Palmer had idiots for wr's his last years of the Bengals. Guys who wouldn't run their routes right, not hustle when the qb was in trouble, not run hard when they weren't the primary read. If you think it was Palmers problem and his alone, then those guys tend to be down on the trade. If you thought ochostinko and TO were part of the problem, you may not see this as a bad trade.

I don't think Cerberus has even brought that up, but it may be part of the reason Palmer hasn't looked good since his last injury. The thing is, Andy Dalton is looking just as good this season. So I dunno, the addition of Green, Dalton and loss of Palmer, TO & Ocho don't seem to be hurting the Bengals all that much. They actually look better, but that may be more due to the defense improving. I dunno, but the last few years, the Bengals always looked like **** under Palmer, so that's what I'm going on.

Actually, I did bring it up, but it may have been in a different string, or further back than page 7. As for you claiming "I dunno", that's certainly that truth.

As for the "typical Cerb" comment and me bringing up the Texans in comparison, I have to ask why it is that I'm not allowed to talk about the Texans in your mind? I used them as an example to see what kind of double-standards you may be using, but you balked on answering. I mean, you thinking the Palmer trade is a complete failure for the Raiders is based on your beliefs. I could just as easily say that if Derrick Mason doesn't bring home a Lombardi for the Texans then they made the biggest bone-head move in the NFL in decades by not going after Brandon Lloyd. Naturally, if I truly felt that way it would in no way affect your opinion on the trade, just like your opinion on the Raider deal has no bearing on my thoughts about trade. Furthermore, keeping the discussion "open-ended" as you say just means you aren't willing to back-up your statement without the benefit of hindsight in the future. At least I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict it will be a good deal for the Raiders as I believe it will get them out of the also-ran category.

I'll also repeat myself in saying that discussing Raider football with a Texan fan is fruitless. It would be like you asking me to do a deep analysis of the Derrick Mason acquisition. It would all depend on my answer as to whether you found my analysis acceptable or not.

UPDATE: Here is the post where I mention TO and Ocho - http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1808334#poststop

 

[Dutchrudder]

Once again, let me re-state that it appears those of us who are 40+ tend to think this trade wasn't a bad deal. The younger "instant gratification" generation tends to think it was a bad deal because it didn't come with a Lombardi attached. So, I'm willing to give Carson Palmer time to become acclimated with his new team and don't feel that the 2012 AFCC game is the deciding factor as to the final status of the trade.

Guess us young whippersnappers aren't patient enough to wait for a 32 year old QB to prove himself again.

And you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong you are! And for what it is worth, I'll leave the ********-giving to you.

Right back atcha

Actually, I did bring it up, but it may have been in a different string, or further back than page 7. As for you claiming "I dunno", that's certainly that truth.

Yeah dude, you sure got me there. 7 hours ago you posted in another thread about the AZ Cardinals that TO and Ocho are the reason Palmer couldn't accomplish anything more than a 1 and done in the playoffs.

I'm willing to entertain the idea of it in this thread (since you didn't bring it up here), but honestly, Ocho's not messing up Brady's life despite being Mr. Irrelevant on that team. TO's former teams do seem to do well the year after he leaves. I know they are easy targets and all, but c'mon man, at some point the QB's gotta prove himself and take some responsibility. TO was only there for 1 season anyways, but Ocho was there from 01-10 and they made the playoffs twice.

Although, this would seem to indicate that TO wasn't the problem:

Gaines said. "He's been throwing to his good buddy T.J. Houshmandzadeh(notes), working with Terrell Owens(notes) and Hank Baskett(notes). He looks great. I think he'll be ready to go and step right in for the Raiders.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Carson-Palmer-to-the-Raiders-Looks-like-it-821?urn=nfl-wp9852

As for the "typical Cerb" comment and me bringing up the Texans in comparison, I have to ask why it is that I'm not allowed to talk about the Texans in your mind? I used them as an example to see what kind of double-standards you may be using, but you balked on answering. I mean, you thinking the Palmer trade is a complete failure for the Raiders is based on your beliefs. I could just as easily say that if Derrick Mason doesn't bring home a Lombardi for the Texans then they made the biggest bone-head move in the NFL in decades by not going after Brandon Lloyd. Naturally, if I truly felt that way it would in no way affect your opinion on the trade, just like your opinion on the Raider deal has no bearing on my thoughts about trade. Furthermore, keeping the discussion "open-ended" as you say just means you aren't willing to back-up your statement without the benefit of hindsight in the future. At least I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict it will be a good deal for the Raiders as I believe it will get them out of the also-ran category.

The comment comes from a seemingly obvious pattern of you trying to stitch two unrelated things together and call it an argument. See this thread for more info: http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85294&highlight=news

The Texans did not spend two high picks to acquire a new player. The Mason trade was for a conditional 7th. The expectations are completely different. Giving up a 7th for an over the hill WR means the Texans want a stopgap, not a Super Bowl ring. If the Texans gave up say a 1st and 2nd for Brandon Marshall (replace their injured player in AJ like the Raiders replaced Campbell), that would signal to me that the Texans expect to go deep in the playoffs this year and anything less than winning a playoff game would be a waste. That's why I set the goal for Palmer at the AFCC, because the stakes are higher and the condition of the second pick is that. I don't think he can do it, and I don't think they will win a playoff game with him in 2011/12. That's the 'open-ended' portion of my statements, and he has a chance to prove me wrong.

I'll also repeat myself in saying that discussing Raider football with a Texan fan is fruitless. It would be like you asking me to do a deep analysis of the Derrick Mason acquisition. It would all depend on my answer as to whether you found my analysis acceptable or not.

No, you're just flat out wrong here. The point of message boards is to discuss things with people and learn more from each other or just shoot the breeze. Different perspectives offer different conclusions. I always like hearing what other fans think of the Texans and other teams for that matter, which is why I go to different boards to diversify my info, but that doesn't mean I'll agree with them. It's interesting at least, and if nothing else, entertaining. (By the way, if you really don't care about Texans fans opinions, then you should probably stop replying to them)

In any case, feel free to offer your insight on the Derrick Mason trade. My opinion of your conclusion will depend on what you present as evidence and how you draw your conclusions from it. Likewise, I've done some homework comparing potential QBs and their perceived costs in this thread and I posted some of it. I drew my own conclusions and have been posting them as my opinion this whole time. The funny thing about your statement here is that you're the one who was decrying the media for downplaying the Raider's acquisitions earlier in the thread, yet you keep posting the "mediot's" opinions that agree with you. So who's the one with the confirmation bias here?

 

[Cerberus]

By the way, if you really don't care about Texans fans opinions, then you should probably stop replying to them.

I said it is fruitless. Besides, I was hoping to talk with football fans moreso than just Texan fans; you know, people who actually follow the game and several different players and teams rather than a homer. There are too many "fans" from all teams that only watch their team play, then go off to do yard work or whatever. In fact, as I type this I am sitting on my couch watching Syracuse and West Virginia play.

The funny thing about your statement here is that you're the one who was decrying the media for downplaying the Raider's acquisitions earlier in the thread, yet you keep posting the "mediot's" opinions that agree with you. So who's the one with the confirmation bias here?

Maybe you don't know the difference between a mediot and someone who is/was actually involved in the game. Here, maybe this will help: Al Michaels (mediot), Rich Gannon (ex-player), Adam Schein (mediot), Pat Kirwan (former scout), Adam Schefter (mediot), Leigh Steinberg (sports agent), Peter King (mediot), are you kind of getting my point now? A journalism degree does not make one a football expert.

Hey man, I joke about nearly everything on this forum.

Now it all makes sense to me.

 

[Vinny]

Palmer has looked pretty good tonight huh?

 

[Corrosion]

Palmer has looked pretty good tonight huh?

Looked like an NFL QB who had a running game to back him up .... and protection to go with it.


That game was erily similar to the game the Raiders played against the Texans .. at least from the standpoint of who dominated the trenches.