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Rackers staying, Brown gone

Dwade

Waterboy
Yeah they're stupid, especially near the end zone.

Signed,

LaDanian Tomlinson

12 attempts, 8 receptions, 7 TD's, 0 INT's,

PS - there wouldn't have been a peep from anyone if he threw a TD or as TK pointed out was simply tackled.
L.T. is actually very good at it. I thought he used to be a quarterback in high school.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
The minuate Dale said he would rather finish 2nd with Kubes than finish 1st with other coaches he lost all creditable objectivity with me. I want to finish 1st and dont really care who thcoaches/players are. The NFL is all about winning. It seems that McNair/Smithiak are finally starting to realize this and are making roster decisions accordingly.
I am thrilled that Kubiak is making difficult decisions for the betterment of the team. However, I am also happy that these are hard things for him to do. And, I value that... I can not comprehend spending my free time and money on something without weighting the moral/ethical value that it holds. I know for a fact, as a former Cowboy fan, that watching the last Superbowl win in 1996, was far less satisfying a fan experience for me than the Texans win versus New England was last season that gave us a few hours of playoff hopes.
 
Grandpa Joe: Mr. Kubiak?
Kubiak: [pointedly ignoring them] I am extraordinarily busy, sir.
Grandpa Joe: [tentatively] I just wanted to ask about the good will - The-the lifetime supply of good will, for Kris. Wh-When does he get it?
Kubiak: He doesn't.
Grandpa Joe: Why not?
Kubiak: Because he missed too many kicks.
Grandpa Joe: What kicks? We didn't see any missed kicks, did we, Kris?
[Kris shakes his head briefly]
Kubiak: [springs up from his chair, angrily] Wrong, sir! Wrong! Under section 37B of the contract signed by him, it states quite clearly that all offers shall become null and void if - and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy:
[grabs a magnifying glass and reads]
Kubiak: I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and good will herein and herein contained, et cetera, et cetera... Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera... Memo bis punitor delicatum!
[slams the contract copy and the magnifying glass down, continues shouting]
Kubiak: It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You missed game winning or tying kicks! You cheated your teammates which now have to be consoled, so you get nothing! You lose! Good day, sir!
Grandpa Joe: [shocked] You're a crook. You're a cheat and a swindler! That's what you are!
[angrily]
Grandpa Joe: How could you do something like this, build up a little boy's hopes and then smash all his dreams to pieces? You're an inhuman monster!
Kubiak: [shouts even louder] I said good day!
Grandpa Joe: Come on, Kris, Let's get out of here. I'll get even with him if its the last thing I'll ever do. If Slugworth wants a kick misser, he'll get one.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
You don't have to go drama queen on this, Dale.

It's a freaking opinion OK? LOL. You're all kinds of wound up, dude.

Look, halfback passes are dumb in the very FIRST place. They are especially DUMB on first down near the end zone. Would everyone please gather around and let us explore how many TD passes have been thrown, in the entire NFL history, by a halfback running a HB Pass Play. Please?

They are neat in high school. Not in the NFL.

That I even have to belabor this point makes me mad at some of you. Out of the 1,000 plays we have...we call a HB Pass with a guy named Chris Brown. On first down. Near the goal line.

(sigh)

Yeah, Dale, it's all about 20/20 Hindsight stuff isn't it? There are things that are true gambles (drafting Player X instead of Player Y). HB Passes in the NFL are not, IMO, considered to be the best statistical play on first down and a few yards from pay dirt. It reeks LESS of creative playcalling and more like "Oh crap, nothing else we want to do is working...why not. Let's do it."

There are a lot of things that I can see as being tough debates on here. That this is one of them is truly epic. HB Passes are for high school. Keep 'em there where they belong.

It was an atrocious call! Look back at one of the dozen threads that exhausted this topic last year. I was adamant about what a bonehead call it was.

I just can't understand why you would resurrect that argument now. It's been fully explored and we aren't arguing about another poor playcall. So, it seemed a morbid and peculiar choice. So, I thought it would be fun to pull up another half dozen of those Classic Hits.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
Yeah they're stupid, especially near the end zone.

Signed,

LaDanian Tomlinson

12 attempts, 8 receptions, 7 TD's, 0 INT's,

PS - there wouldn't have been a peep from anyone if he threw a TD or as TK pointed out was simply tackled.
If CB would have thrown a TD, or even an incomplete pass, this board would have been raving about the gutsy call.
 

Dwade

Waterboy
If CB would have thrown a TD, or even an incomplete pass, this board would have been raving about the gutsy call.
If Kris Brown wouldn't have missed some kicks last year, we would have made the playoffs.

The "if" game is entertaining, but it doesn't help.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
If Kris Brown wouldn't have missed some kicks last year, we would have made the playoffs.

The "if" game is entertaining, but it doesn't help.
Yes, but the conversation was about the call and if it was a good call or not.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
If CB would have thrown a TD, or even an incomplete pass, this board would have been raving about the gutsy call.
Not me! I hate those kinds of calls. It smacks of over-coaching, either as a result of a massive ego (like Parcells) or it indicates the coach doesn't believe in the ability of the 11 players on the field... Thats why I wouldn't have had a problem with the call if Rex Grossman was still in the game. But, Schaub had returned and was playing well. Awful, awful call... only highlighted by the tragedy that ensued.
 

b0ng

Bad Hombre
Not me! I hate those kinds of calls. It smacks of over-coaching, either as a result of a massive ego (like Parcells) or it indicates the coach doesn't believe in the ability of the 11 players on the field... Thats why I wouldn't have had a problem with the call if Rex Grossman was still in the game. But, Schaub had returned and was playing well. Awful, awful call... only highlighted by the tragedy that ensued.
I thought you wanted this line of chatter in this particular thread to die out dale?

For the record, I was fine with the call, the execution was akin to something that comes from my butt.
 

infantrycak

Admin & Mod
Not me! I hate those kinds of calls. It smacks of over-coaching, either as a result of a massive ego (like Parcells) or it indicates the coach doesn't believe in the ability of the 11 players on the field... Thats why I wouldn't have had a problem with the call if Rex Grossman was still in the game. But, Schaub had returned and was playing well. Awful, awful call... only highlighted by the tragedy that ensued.
Really? So I guess we either add Shottenheimer and Turner to the massive ego list with Parcells or we believe they didn't have belief in the ability of one of the best goal line backs of all time. It's a play basically every NFL team practices. Heck HB passes are becoming more prominent with all the wild cat stuff going on and yet folks around here act like it is obviously brain dead. The players didn't (oh my god the dreaded but accurate word) execute.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
Really? So I guess we either add Shottenheimer and Turner to the massive ego list with Parcells or we believe they didn't have belief in the ability of one of the best goal line backs of all time. It's a play basically every NFL team practices. Heck HB passes are becoming more prominent with all the wild cat stuff going on and yet folks around here act like it is obviously brain dead. The players didn't (oh my god the dreaded but accurate word) execute.
Shottenheimer had a basic distrust of QBs and the passing game... So, yeah, I think that is true. Norv inherited a special situation with a RB that was excellent at executing that play.

Trusting that baffoon, Chris Brown, with the level of decision-making and ball-handling that they did... particularly in a high pressure situation, was really, really stupid!

( I realize that the derailing of this thread is now entirely my fault )
 

DexmanC

Hall of Fame
Shottenheimer had a basic distrust of QBs and the passing game... So, yeah, I think that is true. Norv inherited a special situation with a RB that was excellent at executing that play.

Trusting that baffoon, Chris Brown, with the level of decision-making and ball-handling that they did... particularly in a high pressure situation, was really, really stupid!

( I realize that the derailing of this thread is now entirely my fault )
To summarize:

Cak = The play wasn't bad, because other coaches called it. It worked for THEM!

Dale = Playcall in and of itself =/= Always good.

Dex = Playcall + Personnel selected to EXECUTE play + Game Situation
Determines whether the call is good or bad.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
To summarize:

Cak = The play wasn't bad, because other coaches called it. It worked for THEM!

Dale = Playcall in and of itself =/= Always good.

Dex = Playcall + Personnel selected to EXECUTE play + Game Situation
Determines whether the call is good or bad.
If I'm reading that correctly, that may be the worst summary I've ever seen.

I think that playcall is almost always bad. But, I have no idea what "=/=" means.
 

GP

Go Texans!
Really? So I guess we either add Shottenheimer and Turner to the massive ego list with Parcells or we believe they didn't have belief in the ability of one of the best goal line backs of all time. It's a play basically every NFL team practices. Heck HB passes are becoming more prominent with all the wild cat stuff going on and yet folks around here act like it is obviously brain dead. The players didn't (oh my god the dreaded but accurate word) execute.
You're reaching.

I see hardly any HB Pass highlights on the weekend wrap-up shows. Just DVR 'em and start posting them to YouTube so I can see this massive amount of HB Pass "action" we're seeing in the NFL.

Aside from field goal kickers determining outcomes of games, I have to rank HB Pass as the dumbest part of NFL football.

And the wildcat is NOT, I repeat NOT, exactly taking the league by storm. Miami establishes it and catches some teams with their pants down, and all of a sudden teams start trying to emulate it. But unfortunately, defenses are no longer unaware. They know there is a certain amount of options based on the personnel being used, and they scheme for it now.

When you have one of the league's BEST offenses, HB Passes and/or Wildcat should honestly be complete no-no for gameday. You have Andre Johnson, Jacoby Jones, Owen Daniels, Matt Schaub, Arian Foster, and some other TEs who are skilled. You don't need gimmicks with that lineup.

The flea-flicker, IMO, is a lot better gimmick play than HB Pass. At least you get the ball BACK into the hands of your QB. You know, the guy whose job is to throw the football. :shades:
 
You're reaching.

I see hardly any HB Pass highlights on the weekend wrap-up shows. Just DVR 'em and start posting them to YouTube so I can see this massive amount of HB Pass "action" we're seeing in the NFL.

Aside from field goal kickers determining outcomes of games, I have to rank HB Pass as the dumbest part of NFL football.

And the wildcat is NOT, I repeat NOT, exactly taking the league by storm. Miami establishes it and catches some teams with their pants down, and all of a sudden teams start trying to emulate it. But unfortunately, defenses are no longer unaware. They know there is a certain amount of options based on the personnel being used, and they scheme for it now.

When you have one of the league's BEST offenses, HB Passes and/or Wildcat should honestly be complete no-no for gameday. You have Andre Johnson, Jacoby Jones, Owen Daniels, Matt Schaub, Arian Foster, and some other TEs who are skilled. You don't need gimmicks with that lineup.

The flea-flicker, IMO, is a lot better gimmick play than HB Pass. At least you get the ball BACK into the hands of your QB. You know, the guy whose job is to throw the football. :shades:
Very true. Agree. You don't necessarily need gimmicks when you have a roster like that.
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
Not me! I hate those kinds of calls. It smacks of over-coaching, either as a result of a massive ego (like Parcells) or it indicates the coach doesn't believe in the ability of the 11 players on the field... Thats why I wouldn't have had a problem with the call if Rex Grossman was still in the game. But, Schaub had returned and was playing well. Awful, awful call... only highlighted by the tragedy that ensued.
Almost every coach in the NFL makes that call from time to time.

This was just Kubiak's time. If it works, it's genius. If he just gets tackled, oh well. If it's an interception, then it's a horrible call.

But really, it's not a horrible call at all. That was just horrible execution.
 

Brisco_County

Texans worthy
The flea-flicker, IMO, is a lot better gimmick play than HB Pass. At least you get the ball BACK into the hands of your QB. You know, the guy whose job is to throw the football. :shades:
I like to consider the flea flicker more of an extended play action fake. I love the flea flicker.
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
L.T. is actually very good at it. I thought he used to be a quarterback in high school.
Doesn't matter. Look at the list of guys I put up that had tried it last year. Not all of those guys were "great at it." There's actually more of a surprise value if you do it with some guy that they don't expect to throw it.

Guys like LaDanian Tomlinson and Ronnie Brown are special but the play has also been run by "no names" like Chris Brown.
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
You're reaching.

I see hardly any HB Pass highlights on the weekend wrap-up shows. Just DVR 'em and start posting them to YouTube so I can see this massive amount of HB Pass "action" we're seeing in the NFL.

Aside from field goal kickers determining outcomes of games, I have to rank HB Pass as the dumbest part of NFL football.

And the wildcat is NOT, I repeat NOT, exactly taking the league by storm. Miami establishes it and catches some teams with their pants down, and all of a sudden teams start trying to emulate it. But unfortunately, defenses are no longer unaware. They know there is a certain amount of options based on the personnel being used, and they scheme for it now.

When you have one of the league's BEST offenses, HB Passes and/or Wildcat should honestly be complete no-no for gameday. You have Andre Johnson, Jacoby Jones, Owen Daniels, Matt Schaub, Arian Foster, and some other TEs who are skilled. You don't need gimmicks with that lineup.

The flea-flicker, IMO, is a lot better gimmick play than HB Pass. At least you get the ball BACK into the hands of your QB. You know, the guy whose job is to throw the football. :shades:
Hey, guys. I'm in GP's ignore list. Someone who's not in his ignore list put my list of guys who made the pass last year into a message that he can see cause he's talking out of his ass again.

Judging that the HB pass is dead because he doesn't see the HB pass in the highlights from other games is ridiculous.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I am thrilled that Kubiak is making difficult decisions for the betterment of the team. However, I am also happy that these are hard things for him to do. And, I value that... I can not comprehend spending my free time and money on something without weighting the moral/ethical value that it holds. I know for a fact, as a former Cowboy fan, that watching the last Superbowl win in 1996, was far less satisfying a fan experience for me than the Texans win versus New England was last season that gave us a few hours of playoff hopes.
This is where we differ. I want a winner and dont really care how/who it happens.

You on the otherhand only want a winner if meets somekind of preconcieved notion of a certain kind of kind of player on the team.

I wish the Texans could give me the opportunity to make a decision of whether I like the team after a SB win.

Hell I would even like that opportunity after a playoff win.
 

HJam72

Hall of Fame
Hey, guys. I'm in GP's ignore list. Someone who's not in his ignore list put my list of guys who made the pass last year into a message that he can see cause he's talking out of his ass again.

Judging that the HB pass is dead because he doesn't see the HB pass in the highlights from other games is ridiculous.

I would, but I can't help because I have everyone on my ignore list. :mcnugget:
 

Wolf

100% Texan
Lots of guys have thrown TD's on HB passes. You usually throw it when you're in a short yardage situation where the defense will sell out against the run. I've usually seen it in a goal line situation.


Last year, the following Running Backs and Wide Receivers threw a pass:
Ricky Williams (interception)
LaDanian Tomlinson (incomplete)
Reggie Wayne (interception)
Clinton Portis (incomplete)
Brian Westbrook (incomplete)
Chris Brown (interception)
Michael Clayton (incomplete)
Mewelde Moore (6 yard TD)
Braylon Edwards (incomplete)
Mark Clayton (the other one, complete for 0 yards)
Mark Bradley (complete for 26 yards)
Santonio Holmes (interception)
Joseph Addai (22 yard TD)
Brad Smith (complete for 27 yards)
Fred Jackson (complete for 27 yards)
Michael Spurlock (incomplete)
Michael Bush (incomplete)
Legedu Naanee (complete for 21 yards)
Tim Castille (incomplete)
Chris Johnson (incomplete)
Ray Rice (incomplete)

Ronnie Brown threw 6 of them, completed 2 of them and one of those was a TD.

That's just this past season. So it's not like this is some weird and unusual thing that no team has in their playbook. Everybody has the play and most teams try it at least once during the season.

It was not a stupid call.
true, it is one of those plays where if it works great, if the worst happens (i.e. INT) people get all up in arms.

like someone said, if he got tackled or threw it away, it would have been a blip on the game day thread
 

Wolf

100% Texan
you want to talk about really killed the Texans instead of a half back pass?

Houston - 4:01
HOU kicked off, M. Thomas returned kickoff for 9 yards
Jacksonville - 3:57
1st-10, JAC24 3:57 M. Jones-Drew rushed up the middle for no gain
2nd-10, JAC24 3:19 M. Jones-Drew rushed up the middle for 15 yard gain
1st-10, JAC39 3:10 M. Jones-Drew rushed up the middle for 4 yard gain
2nd-6, JAC43 2:29 M. Jones-Drew rushed to the right for 9 yard gain
1st-10, HOU48 2:23 M. Jones-Drew rushed up the middle for no gain
2nd-10, HOU48 2:18 M. Jones-Drew rushed to the right for 7 yard gain
3rd-3, HOU41 2:13 M. Jones-Drew rushed to the right for 3 yard gain
1st-10, HOU38 2:00 D. Garrard rushed up the middle for 1 yard loss
2nd-11, HOU39 1:19 D. Garrard rushed up the middle for 1 yard loss
3rd-12, HOU40 0:38 D. Garrard rushed up the middle for 1 yard loss
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore?gid=20091206030&page=plays

this was f'ing pathetic
 

DexmanC

Hall of Fame
you want to talk about really killed the Texans instead of a half back pass?

Houston - 4:01
HOU kicked off, M. Thomas returned kickoff for 9 yards
Jacksonville - 3:57
1st-10, JAC24 3:57 M. Jones-Drew rushed up the middle for no gain
2nd-10, JAC24 3:19 M. Jones-Drew rushed up the middle for 15 yard gain
1st-10, JAC39 3:10 M. Jones-Drew rushed up the middle for 4 yard gain
2nd-6, JAC43 2:29 M. Jones-Drew rushed to the right for 9 yard gain
1st-10, HOU48 2:23 M. Jones-Drew rushed up the middle for no gain
2nd-10, HOU48 2:18 M. Jones-Drew rushed to the right for 7 yard gain
3rd-3, HOU41 2:13 M. Jones-Drew rushed to the right for 3 yard gain
1st-10, HOU38 2:00 D. Garrard rushed up the middle for 1 yard loss
2nd-11, HOU39 1:19 D. Garrard rushed up the middle for 1 yard loss
3rd-12, HOU40 0:38 D. Garrard rushed up the middle for 1 yard loss

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore?gid=20091206030&page=plays

this was f'ing pathetic
Shhh!!! Don't bring this up! The fans in the "Texans were top 5 in
run-stopping after Game 3" camp won't like it!
 

HJam72

Hall of Fame
You're reaching.

I see hardly any flea-flicker Pass highlights on the weekend wrap-up shows. Just DVR 'em and start posting them to YouTube so I can see this massive amount of flea-flicker Pass "action" we're seeing in the NFL.

Aside from field goal kickers determining outcomes of games, I have to rank flea-flicker Pass as the dumbest part of NFL football.

The Hail-Mary to AJ, IMO, is a lot better gimmick play than flea-flicker Pass. At least you get the ball into the hands of a guy in the endzone. You know, the guy whose job is to just freaking score. :goodpost:
 

Lucky

Moderator
Staff member
Someone who's not in his ignore list put my list of guys who made the pass last year into a message that he can see cause he's talking out of his ass again.
Are we really going to rehash this? If you want stats on halfback passes, here you go:

Here are some stats I compiled myself of passes attempted by non-QBs (or wildcat QBs) during the '09 season.

12-28-224 yards 6 TDs 7 INTs 71.1 Passer Rating

A boom or bust play. Then I looked at only RB passes (non-wildcat):

3-12-55 3 TDs 3 INTs 46.1 Passer Rating

So you have a 1 in 4 chance at success. A 1 in 4 chance at total failure. And a 50/50 chance that you'll run another play. Incredibily risky. It's the type of play you want to run with a big lead, and then just to put on film for future opponents to prepare for. An atrocious play call. Which as GP pointed out, Kubiak admitted to. I'm fairly certain that "Stagger Gary" won't find its way back into future game plans.
It's a new season. I hope I don't have to wade through another season of Kubiak apologies. I hope there's nothing to apologize for.
 

Kaiser Toro

Native Mod
I do not have a real problem with the play call if it is drilled in practice. But Chris Brown had not been a running threat in years, and he had never attempted a HB pass in the pros or in college. The execution may have been there, but that play call was reckless given our personnel and situation IMO.
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
Not me! I hate those kinds of calls. It smacks of over-coaching, either as a result of a massive ego (like Parcells) or it indicates the coach doesn't believe in the ability of the 11 players on the field... Thats why I wouldn't have had a problem with the call if Rex Grossman was still in the game. But, Schaub had returned and was playing well. Awful, awful call... only highlighted by the tragedy that ensued.
Redskins x2
Colts x2
Texans
Raiders
Chiefs
Buccaneers
Ravens x2
Jets x2
Steelers x2
Bills
Titans
Chargers x2
Vikings
Eagles
Dolphins x2
Browns x2

Half the league tried it last year. The (x2) indicates teams that tried it with multiple players.
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
Redskins x2
Colts x2
Texans
Raiders
Chiefs
Buccaneers
Ravens x2
Jets x2
Steelers x2
Bills
Titans
Chargers x2
Vikings
Eagles
Dolphins x2
Browns x2

Half the league tried it last year. The (x2) indicates teams that tried it with multiple players.

Not exactly the A-list for good coaching... By the way, Caldwell didn't look like a genius either when he took the ball out of Peyton Manning's hands and had Reggie Wayne throw an interception to Bernard Pollard in the third quarter of the Texans at Indy.
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
Not exactly the A-list for good coaching... By the way, Caldwell didn't look like a genius either when he took the ball out of Peyton Manning's hands and had Reggie Wayne throw an interception to Bernard Pollard in the third quarter of the Texans at Indy.
Maybe Caldwell looked dumb with the interception but he looked like a genius on Addai's TD.

And this is just one year's worth of data. I looked at some previous years and there were a lot more teams represented than just those in this list. Like Lucky said, it's a boom or bust play. The stats definitely bear that out but to say that only poorly coached teams do it or it's only done by either bad teams/coaches is wrong. Every team has this in their arsenal and every team brings it out from time to time.
 
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thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
You're reaching.

Aside from field goal kickers determining outcomes of games, I have to rank HB Pass as the dumbest part of NFL football.
As long as you're consistent, who are we to argue. If you say it's just as dumb if it were successful, cool. If you say it's just as dumb whether it's Parcells, Shottenhiemer, Gibbs, or whoever that calls that play, cool.

I think infantrycak's point, mine as well, is that other coaches have been called geniuses for that same call. Not that we think Kubiak is a genius, or that we would ever call that play ourselves. But we recognize even with AJ, OD, Dressen, Walter, etc, etc... we've had issues in the redzone, we understand the call.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Shhh!!! Don't bring this up! The fans in the "Texans were top 5 in
run-stopping after Game 3" camp won't like it!
I believe it was top 4.

And for the most part, we are realistic. We understand that same defense we brag about lost a few games for us as well.

The bottom line is that we finished as the 23rd rank run defense in 2008 finishing 10th in 2009 (including the first three games) is an improvement.

That game showed a maturity level we have yet to reach. An area in need of improvement.

We aren't looking at this with blinders, like we are the #1 defense or anything, only that we are on our way. :cow:
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
You're reaching.

I see hardly any flea-flicker Pass highlights on the weekend wrap-up shows. Just DVR 'em and start posting them to YouTube so I can see this massive amount of flea-flicker Pass "action" we're seeing in the NFL.

Aside from field goal kickers determining outcomes of games, I have to rank flea-flicker Pass as the dumbest part of NFL football.

The Hail-Mary to AJ, IMO, is a lot better gimmick play than flea-flicker Pass. At least you get the ball into the hands of a guy in the endzone. You know, the guy whose job is to just freaking score. :goodpost:
You're reaching.

I see hardly any Hail-Mary Pass highlights on the weekend wrap-up shows. Just DVR 'em and start posting them to YouTube so I can see this massive amount of Hail-Mary Pass "action" we're seeing in the NFL.

Aside from field goal kickers determining outcomes of games, I have to rank Hail-Mary Pass as the dumbest part of NFL football.

The statue of liberty, IMO, is a lot better gimmick play than Hail-Mary Pass. At least you get the ball into the hands of a guy in the endzone. You know, the guy whose job is to just freaking score.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
It's a new season. I hope I don't have to wade through another season of Kubiak apologies. I hope there's nothing to apologize for.
I'm with you. If the players didn't execute, I wish he would just be honest, and say they didn't execute, instead of always taking the blame for it.
 

Rey

Guest
Maybe Caldwell looked dumb with the interception but he looked like a genius on Addai's TD.

And this is just one year's worth of data. I looked at some previous years and there were a lot more teams represented than just those in this list. Like Lucky said, it's a boom or bust play. The stats definitely bear that out but to say that only poorly coached teams do it or it's only done by either bad teams/coaches is wrong. Every team has this in their arsenal and every team brings it out from time to time.
agreed
 

GP

Go Texans!
As long as you're consistent, who are we to argue. If you say it's just as dumb if it were successful, cool. If you say it's just as dumb whether it's Parcells, Shottenhiemer, Gibbs, or whoever that calls that play, cool.

I think infantrycak's point, mine as well, is that other coaches have been called geniuses for that same call. Not that we think Kubiak is a genius, or that we would ever call that play ourselves. But we recognize even with AJ, OD, Dressen, Walter, etc, etc... we've had issues in the redzone, we understand the call.
I'd be called a genius, too, if I bought a lotto ticket and won. Because I called my same numbers for 20 years and then hit paydirt one day.

For every HB Pass that is successful, there's gotta' be around 345 that are blown up or go wrong.

It's the law of averages on stoopid plays.
 

GP

Go Texans!
Almost every coach in the NFL makes that call from time to time.

This was just Kubiak's time. If it works, it's genius. If he just gets tackled, oh well. If it's an interception, then it's a horrible call.

But really, it's not a horrible call at all. That was just horrible execution.
For the record, TPN, you flow on and off my ignore list. It's like having to make a game-time decision on whether to activate a player or not. You've been off my list for several days, which means you haven't been replying to my posts because you thought I wasn't watching. I watched, and it was awesome to not have to get into a back-and-forth with you. But you came lookin' for me today, so here ya' go....

You continue to ignore the HUGE issue that I continue to keep referencing: DOWN AND DISTANCE.

Where was that play called, and what down was it? We were moving the ball down the field. We didn't all of a sudden lose our guys out there and have to resort to pure gimmickery. Resorting to the HB Pass, when you have a 5-inch notebook binder full of plays, and our roster of guys, is so mindless.

I seriously sit here and try to figure out why this is lost on you. First freaking down, and we call a HB pass. First down. Not 3rd and 2, where the defense is looking for a QB sneak or a rushing play, which obviously helps sell the honorable and glorious HB Pass play.

No, we trot it out on a fresh set of downs and say "Because of poor 'execution' by the player, you really can't fault the playcall itself." Hell yes you can fault the playcall itself. If I am a policeman and stop a car because the child isn't in a booster seat, I ticket the PARENT and not the child. Chris Brown was the child, in both figurative and literal sense. Kubiak the parent. Gary, buckle up your kids already. Be a good daddy and don't let them do things that gets you ticketed.

In response to "Well, if it had succeeded you'd have said it was genius." See there, that's where you guys also miss the mark on what I think. I would have felt the same way about that playcall as I would have felt when I see Jacoby Jones going Willie-Mays-Over-The-Shoulder-Catch on punt returns. I sit there and go "How did we NOT loose the ball right there? I need a heart surgeon." The gamble was not worth the risk. I tend to think Kubiak is a methodical man, and then I see HB Pass on 1st down near the EZ and I wonder if a 12-year-old on his PS3, playing NCAA10, made that call.
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
You continue to ignore the HUGE issue that I continue to keep referencing: DOWN AND DISTANCE.

Where was that play called, and what down was it? We were moving the ball down the field. We didn't all of a sudden lose our guys out there and have to resort to pure gimmickery. Resorting to the HB Pass, when you have a 5-inch binder full of plays, and our roster of guys, is so mindless.

I seriously sit here and try to figure out why this is lost on you. First freaking down, and we call a HB pass. First down. Not 3rd and 2, where the defense is looking for a QB sneak or a rushing play, which obviously helps sell the honorable and glorious HB Pass play.

No, we trot it out and say "Because of poor 'execution' by the player, you really can't fault the playcall itself." Hell yes you can. If I am a policeman and stop a car because the child isn't in a booster seat, I ticket the PARENT and not the child. Chris Brown was the child, in both figurative and literal sense. Kubiak the parent. Gary, buckle up your kids already. Be a good daddy and don't let them do things that gets you ticketed.
On first down, the defense is expecting a running play. They're going to buy the fake. That's a perfect time to run it.
 

GP

Go Texans!
On first down, the defense is expecting a running play. They're going to buy the fake. That's a perfect time to run it.
Yes, because THAT day we really were running the ball very well weren't we?

Oh, wait. That's right...we amassed 56 yards of rushing between TWO running backs. Our run game was atrocious that game. Would you have mentioned that stat at all? Hmmm?

Hell, Grossman had 9 yards to Chris Brown's 15. Grossman had a higher rushing average that day than Chris Brown. LOL!!!! (link to the stats if you want to look)

So let's abandon the pass game, the thing we WERE doing well. Let's do the HB Pass near the EZ. On first down. Because we had been burnin' 'em on the run all day. LOL.

I think the jury knows how to rule on this verdict, TPN. Your client is heading to jail.
 

J_R

Veteran
The Texans have placed the following players on the reserve injured list:

André Davis WR Virginia Tech
Kris Brown K Nebraska
NamePos. College

??? Reaching an injury settlement I assume
 

dalemurphy

Hall of Fame
Maybe Caldwell looked dumb with the interception but he looked like a genius on Addai's TD.

And this is just one year's worth of data. I looked at some previous years and there were a lot more teams represented than just those in this list. Like Lucky said, it's a boom or bust play. The stats definitely bear that out but to say that only poorly coached teams do it or it's only done by either bad teams/coaches is wrong. Every team has this in their arsenal and every team brings it out from time to time.
As I argued last season, even the greatest coaches make bonehead decisions. We are more sensitive to the Kubiak mistakes because we follow them closer. Last season, for instance, Bill Belichek made a number of horrible decisions, just like the one Kubiak made against Jacksonville.
 

GP

Go Texans!
My main point, in this court case, is that the situation did not call for the HB Pass. And saying the player is to blame is reckless. The player's gotta' do what he was told to do, and my client (Chris Brown) was put in harm's way at the behest of his supervisor.

Furthermore, I would like to call a committee to review the HB Pass to make a determination if this play is an endangerment to both the coach AND the player. We need to review if the play itself is to be stricken from the playbook altogether, in the best interests of all parties.
 

The Pencil Neck

Hall of Fame
Yes, because THAT day we really were running the ball very well weren't we?

Oh, wait. That's right...we amassed 56 yards of rushing between TWO running backs. Our run game was atrocious that game. Would you have mentioned that stat at all? Hmmm?

Hell, Grossman had 9 yards to Chris Brown's 15. Grossman had a higher rushing average that day than Chris Brown. LOL!!!! (link to the stats if you want to look)

So let's abandon the pass game, the thing we WERE doing well. Let's do the HB Pass near the EZ. On first down. Because we had been burnin' 'em on the run all day. LOL.

I think the jury knows how to rule on this verdict, TPN. Your client is heading to jail.
Let's look at that particular drive.

1 - Pass for 8 yards.
2 - Run for 4 yards.
3 - Pass for 53 yards.
4 - Pass for 6 yards.
5 - Run for 3 yards.
6 - Run for 2 yards and a first down.
7 - HB Pass on First down and goal from the 5.

We had not abandoned the run. The HB pass fake worked perfectly. The play didn't fail because the Jags realized it wasn't a run play, it failed because they were so sold out on the run play that they hit CB as he was throwing so he put up a duck that was intercepted. If he had gotten the throw off cleanly, Dreessen was in the end zone all alone and it would have been a touchdown.

HB passes are frequently thrown in this exact down and distance situation. That's where most of the TD's are made with the play.

It didn't work but that doesn't make it a bad play call.
 

GP

Go Texans!
As I argued last season, even the greatest coaches make bonehead decisions. We are more sensitive to the Kubiak mistakes because we follow them closer. Last season, for instance, Bill Belichek made a number of horrible decisions, just like the one Kubiak made against Jacksonville.
Yeah, but I want us to examine that whole game.

We left Jacoby Jones in Houston because he was LATE to a meeting. Kubiak got all Bug Boy Pants on him, and flew out without him. That's mistake #1. You don't leave talent behind, against a divisional rival and certainly not when you're chasing the playoffs. I have said it over and over: Let him play, then fine his ass so much money that he won't EVER be late to a meeting again. He'll even offer to open up the facility 4 hours early if he can.

Mistake 2 was the HB Pass, and it crushed our momentum. It revived the Jags. It crushed our spirit. Then MJD did his thang later on.

A total disaster, IMO, from before that plane left Houston and until the final whistle of the game. I don't want my head coach to be perfect, but it would be nice if they just got ot of the way every now and then.

Overall, he's a good coach. That playcall was irresponsible for any head coach, considering all factors surrounding it.
 


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