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Owen Daniels - What's he worth? - Gets Highest RFA Tender

If I do a search, how many of the "Daniels for a 1st and 3rd" posters will also come up as "Peppers for only a 1st" posters?

Therefore Daniels is > than Peppers.

Let's see, the Texans get a 1st and 3rd for Daniels, a 1st for Dunta, trade a 1st for Peppers, get a 2nd for Rosencopter, all of the draft choices hit and...

The Texans are going to the Super Bowl!!!

I blame John McClain for this. :voodoo:
 
Lucky said:
If I do a search, how many of the "Daniels for a 1st and 3rd" posters will also come up as "Peppers for only a 1st" posters?

Therefore Daniels is > than Peppers.

Let's see, the Texans get a 1st and 3rd for Daniels, a 1st for Dunta, trade a 1st for Peppers, get a 2nd for Rosencopter, all of the draft choices hit and...

The Texans are going to the Super Bowl!!!

I blame John McClain for this. :voodoo:
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Im not saying I think the Bills with make an offer to a maximum tendered RFA and give us a 1st and a 3rd, but to compare the Peppers talk to the Daniels talk doesn't mean anything.

Peppers is over 30 years old, comes with an enormous contract, and will only be traded because he absolutely does not want to stay with his current team.

If we were to trade Daniels, it would take a huge offer because both parties want him to remain in Houston.

You frequently see people get traded for lower value when the team with original rights knows they have a limited window to make the deal. The Panthers know Peppers doesn't want to be there and won't play for them, so they have no choice but to trade him. It hurts his value.

As for the Bills, put yourself in their position. Lets say you intend to draft a TE with your 1st round pick. The top TE on the board is Pettigrew. Would you rather have Owen Daniels or Pettigrew. One of them is a proven pro bowl player, the other is a rookie with a lot of potential. Do I think the Bills will offer us a 1st for Daniels? Probably not. Do I think its such an outrageous suggestion that it warrants 2 separate posts about how worthless the discussion is? No
 
Remember when doing this evaluation that the texans would be matching a 5 million a year contract and turning down 1st and 3rd. So you have 5 million a year and two extra draft stops to find acceptable TE play, while giving yourself more ammunition to improve the rest of your team.
 
J-Russ said:
Yea, I'm sure that'll happen. I mean our players on offense are just average, beside OD of course. AJ, Slaton, Schaub, Walter.. average. Kubiak, just an average offensive coach. They're nothing without Daniels. pleaaase.
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We have three serious weapons. AJ, OD, and Slaton if you take one away our offense becomes mediocre.

Either way if you agree with me or not trading OD for draft picks is giving up on our first serious chance to win the division.
 
Pay 5m+ for a TE in a west coast offense that is currently allergic to touchdowns or get a 1st and 3rd? There is no question which way I would go. Give me the picks.
 
I don't think it's touchdowns he has a problem with, it's fumbling. He has pretty sure hands until the ball is already tucked away.
 
I love OD and very much appreciate his value to our team, but I think the 1st and 3rd could do a whole lot of good for our team in other areas. We won't get a TE like OD for a while, but we can try either in the draft or just let Dreesen try it out if we do this deal.
 
Unless a team offers a contract with an incredibly ridiculous poison pill clause in there, the Texans have to match. Pro Bowl TE's like him don't come that often. You can't just plug any tight end into our offense and expect him to produce.
 
ChampionTexan said:
John McClain was on KILT yesterday afternoon (just like every Friday), and one of the things he mentioned was that he'd heard Buffalo may be willing to offer Owen Daniels a contract in the $5 Million/year range even though he's a RFA.
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I think the key word here is restricted. Texans will be able to match any offers, and we should see some amazing stats from him during his last contract year.

I'm just glad he is hanging on to the ball more and has a quarterback that can throw to him! The Texans are making some smart choices lately, unless something horrible happens, I can't see them parting ways with OD just yet.

OD is awesome, and it doesn't hurt to be the first Texan to score a touchdown during the pro bowl!
 
Owen is a great TE, but I'd be happy to take the draft picks and start Dreesen at TE, maybe pick up a guy like Mark Hafner as an UDFA.
 
mexican_texan said:
I don't think it's touchdowns he has a problem with, it's fumbling. He has pretty sure hands until the ball is already tucked away.
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I think he gets a bad rap on the fumble issue, half of the time it was questionable and only remained a fumble because there was not enough evidence to overturn it yada yada yada.
 
Pay the man.

He is a vital piece in the Kubiak offense and one of the reasons the team is a top 5 offense.

Drafts pick are all well and good, but as the saying goes the bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
 
threetoedpete said:
Pay the man. Make him the highest paided TE in the league.
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That is pretty cavalier and certainly would put the front office in a jam for other signings down the road. Daniels scored 2 TD's last year, both of them in one game, against the 0-16 Lions.

I will not lie and say I have seen him block in the RZ, but I do know that we have trouble scoring in the RZ whether it be by pass or run and I want a TE that scores TDs and helps seal a side. OD does some things very well, but the one thing he has not done, which in my opinion defines the position is being a threat in the RZ. We are 8-8 the last two years and do not have the luxury to over pay for a player that does not help us on our biggest offensive weakness.

If someone wants him for 5m and gives us draft picks this offseason, take it.
 
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gtexan02 said:
Peppers is over 30 years old, comes with an enormous contract, and will only be traded because he absolutely does not want to stay with his current team.

You frequently see people get traded for lower value when the team with original rights knows they have a limited window to make the deal. The Panthers know Peppers doesn't want to be there and won't play for them, so they have no choice but to trade him. It hurts his value.
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Allow me to go on a mini-tangent regarding Julius Peppers. First, I read numerous posts stating that there was no chance of Carolina tagging Peppers. Then, Carolina tags Peppers. Now, I'm reading that the Panthers have "no choice" but to trade Peppers. Excuse me if I remain skeptical over the limitations put on the Carolina franchise by fans and the media.

Let me add this on Peppers. It doesn't matter if Julius prefers to play as a OLB in a 3-4 defense. Why? Because there isn't a team that runs a 3-4 defense that will pay Peppers the mega $million to play out of position. He and his agent must be on the same hallucinogen if they believe the Dolphins or the Cowboys will cough up a contract with the same $large as the Panthers.

gtexan02 said:
As for the Bills, put yourself in their position. Lets say you intend to draft a TE with your 1st round pick...
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Whoa. As the Bills, why would I limit my options to the TE position? Are we a TE from the Super Bowl? I'm looking at my roster, and I think a stud d-lineman or linebacker would have more impact than a tight end. This TE class is deep. I can pickup a pass catching TE in the 2nd, maybe the 3rd. At a much lower cap figure than Owen Daniels would go for. That would make my owner pretty happy, too.
gtexan02 said:
Do I think its such an outrageous suggestion that it warrants 2 separate posts about how worthless the discussion is?
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3rd time's the charm.
 
We're not a complete team yet. Daniels means more to this team than a lot of people realize. It's tempting because I love getting some draft picks, but I wouldn't trade him.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
That is pretty cavalier and certainly would put the front office in a jam for other signings down the road. Daniels scored 2 TD's last year, both of them in one game, against the 0-16 Lions.

I will not lie and say I have seen him block in the RZ, but I do know that we have trouble scoring in the RZ whether it be by pass or run and I want a TE that scores TDs and helps seal a side. OD does some things very well, but the one thing he has not done, which in my opinion defines the position is being a threat in the RZ. We are 8-8 the last two years and do not have the luxury to over pay for a player that does not help us on our biggest offensive weakness.

If someone wants him for 5m and gives us draft picks this offseason, take it.
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No one is tighter than I am with Mr. McNair's Money. Go look in the Dunta Robinson thread. Here you got a guy who represents 30% of our offensive pass yardage production...a pretty fair blocking tight end. He not quite to the middle of his career. He's basically Matt Schaub's safety net when two of the WR's go down....pay the man.
 
threetoedpete said:
No one is tighter than I am with Mr. McNair's Money. Go look in the Dunta Robinson thread. Here you got a guy who represents 30% of our offensive pass yardage production...a pretty fair blocking tight end. He not quite to the middle of his career. He's basically Matt Schaub's safety net when two of the WR's go down....pay the man.
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I like Daniels, but in this case our FO is in a position of power as they can leverage the RFA position. Let the market dictate his price. I seriously doubt that anyone will set the bar by making him the highest paid TE.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
It has nothing to do with actively shopping Daniels, he is a RFA.
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I understand but I'm equating it to a trade. You pay the guy what he deserves and keep him (something you'll have to do the following year anyways at maybe more) or you don't and you get picks. What do I do? I keep him and lock him in long term.

You get the production from him right now. Dreessen, maybe a high draft pick TE.. doubt we would get the same production. If Daniels continues to be as great as he is, you might be able to trade him in the future if you want picks.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I understand but I'm equating it to a trade. You pay the guy what he deserves and keep him (something you'll have to do the following year anyways at maybe more) or you don't and you get picks. What do I do? I keep him and lock him in long term.
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What does he deserve, what he has earned and what his value is are all up for debate. I am all for locking him up to a long term deal, but at the right price, which in this instance the market will set for us and we can match. Making him the highest paid TE is flat out silly. I have watched enough football to know that OD is not the best TE in the game and he should not be paid like it - that is the difference between earned and deserved.
 
I think most of you guys hae some ridiculous fetish for draft picks.

You don't trade your good players for draft picks, you try to trade your scrubs for draft picks.

What.

The.

****.
 
I am ok with the idea to sign and keep Daniels long-term. However, it you place the highest RFA price on Owen and somebody offers him a huge contract and a 1st and 3rd, in terms of NFL value there is little debate. Daniels good, but not an elite talent. He is replaceable.

The answer for those who who disagree. List all the players over the last five, heck maybe even 10 years who have traded for 1st and 3rd.
 
Hey...lets see what we can get for Mario....for Slaton for Andre Johnson...shoot....lets just get draft picks for all our proven players and start over.....LMFAO.....
 
b0ng said:
I think most of you guys hae some ridiculous fetish for draft picks.

You don't trade your good players for draft picks, you try to trade your scrubs for draft picks.

What.

The.

****.
Click to expand...

I do not understand the fetish for draft picks either, but I also do not understand the want to make OD the highest paid TE in the game.
 
rush2112mn said:
Hey...lets see what we can get for Mario....for Slaton for Andre Johnson...shoot....lets just get draft picks for all our proven players and start over.....LMFAO.....
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Hey, lets pay all of our FA's as the top players at their respective position and see how far that gets us. LMFAO! LOL! WTF?!?! OMG! Quack! Quack!
 
Kaiser Toro said:
I do not understand the fetish for draft picks either, but I also do not understand the want to make OD the highest paid TE in the game.
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If we had to sign Daniels to a contract where he had to get paid more than 7 mil a year then yeah, but some people just want to give him up if the other team just offer the picks no matter what ins of contract is offered.
 
b0ng said:
If we had to sign Daniels to a contract where he had to get paid more than 7 mil a year then yeah, but some people just want to give him up if the other team just offer the picks no matter what ins of contract is offered.
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I have not seen that train of thought echoed in this thread.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
I am ok with the idea to sign and keep Daniels long-term. However, it you place the highest RFA price on Owen and somebody offers him a huge contract and a 1st and 3rd, in terms of NFL value there is little debate. Daniels good, but not an elite talent. He is replaceable.

The answer for those who disagree. List all the players over the last five, heck maybe even 10 years who have traded for 1st and 3rd.
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This is my reasoning. For those of you willing to break the bank for him. His value isn't over 5 million, and its definately not over 5 million and 2 early draft picks.

Daniels is a great talent, not elite, but he reads zones well and understands our offense. Still, I highly doubt anyone gives a first and third and pays the huge contract for a TE. So it's really a moot point.
 
mexican_texan said:
I don't think it's touchdowns he has a problem with, it's fumbling. He has pretty sure hands until the ball is already tucked away.
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He lost 1 ball this year.

b0ng said:
If we had to sign Daniels to a contract where he had to get paid more than 7 mil a year then yeah, but some people just want to give him up if the other team just offer the picks no matter what ins of contract is offered.
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Right there in the original post was the scenario--$5 mil per year. The franchise tag for TE's was $4.52 in 2008. I love OD and am not a draftnik, but I'd take a 1st and 3rd for him rather than make him potentially the highest paid TE in the league.
 
b0ng said:
If we had to sign Daniels to a contract where he had to get paid more than 7 mil a year then yeah, but some people just want to give him up if the other team just offer the picks no matter what ins of contract is offered.
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I think no way in heck a situation like this occurs, but

1) if a team would offer a 1st and 3rd for Daniels, do you really think they are not going have a high end contract along with it?

2) In terms of trade value, Daniels (and maybe not any TE in the league) is not worth a 1st and 3rd, so I agree the contract does not matter to me. I base this on the type of players who are traded for with first round picks. IMO, the only players on the Texan worth more than the 1st and 3rd are Mario amnd AJ with the good, healthy Schaub the only other possibility because of the scarcity of QBs.

Being an NFL GM requires a cold, hard understanding of value. That means like when value dictates trading player that you like a lot. This scenerio would force me to trade Owen Daniels. It is just business.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
2) In terms of trade value, Daniels (and maybe not any TE in the league) is not worth a 1st and 3rd, so I agree the contract does not matter to me. I base this on the type of players who are traded for with first round picks. IMO, the only players on the Texan worth more than the 1st and 3rd are Mario amnd AJ with the good, healthy Schaub the only other possibility because of the scarcity of QBs.

Being an NFL GM requires a cold, hard understanding of value. That means like when value dictates trading player that you like a lot. This scenerio would force me to trade Owen Daniels. It is just business.
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I think you could find a suitor for AJ at a 1st and 3rd. Otherwise agreed.
 
You would only do this if you had a viable replacement already in the wings. There's no point if you're gonna use those picks to draft another TE.
 
beerlover said:
Daniels (98th overall selection in 06) for a 1st & 3rd is ridiculous return on initial investment. Rick could do some serious damage with all those picks, I could imagine a very deep & talented haul come draft day for the Texans :texflag:
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If ROI is the objective, then the Patriots are stupid not to trade Tom Brady. Brady was a compensatory pick in the sixth round (199th overall) of the 2000 draft--imagine what Belichick could do with the draft picks Brady would command in return.
 
gtexan02 said:
Peppers is over 30 years old, comes with an enormous contract, and will only be traded because he absolutely does not want to stay with his current team.
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My apologies for the OT post, but Julius Peppers is not 30. He just turned 29 last month. I don't know why so many continue to get this wrong when it's right there on his player page at NFL.com.
 
Mailman said:
If ROI is the objective, then the Patriots are stupid not to trade Tom Brady. Brady was a compensatory pick in the sixth round (199th overall) of the 2000 draft--imagine what Belichick could do with the draft picks Brady would command in return.
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Ah, but it was the use of ROI which dragged me finally into this thread. ROI is not the objective, but it is OPPORTUNITY COST which is the key consideration. For the Pats to surrender Brady for picks might be likened to lunacy, on that we agree.

But bringing this back to Daniels, we would gain a 1st and 3rd at a time when we already have an outstanding TE in Dreesen on the squad. Moreover, our draft list would like:
two (2) first rounders, a 2nd, two 3rds.

All that said, this is all just mental masturbation. There is zero probability that any team signs Daniels to an offer sheet with a 1st and 3rd tender. But, should some GM be stoned at the time, I would take the picks. The opportunity cost is too high not to.

One man's opinion. Yours may differ. That's cool.

Later,
Rick
 
This is the same argument as should we have traded Sage for a 3rd.

Buy low/ Sell high

We could get Raji or Orapko @ 11 & pick up a TE like Ingram or Miller in the 3-4th rd.
 
Until OD becomes a real Red Zone threat, much as i really like the guy, he's replaceable.

Don't think Buffalo would tender him unless they felt they could use him better in the RZ. I'd take the picks and walk.

Quick question: Matt Schaub was tendered high and we signed him for 2 second rounders. Would you do that trade on both sides of the equation?
 
I can't figure OD out. Is it him, or is it the offense? Sure he catches a lot of passes and get decent yardage but then he finishes the season with 2 TD's.

IMO he is not an important part of the offense.
 
steelbtexan said:
This is the same argument as should we have traded Sage for a 3rd.

Buy low/ Sell high

We could get Raji or Orapko @ 11 & pick up a TE like Ingram or Miller in the 3-4th rd.
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We could get both an offensive playmaker like Maclin and a defensive powerhouse like Orakpo with those picks. A can't miss situation.
 
TEXANRED said:
I can't figure OD out. Is it him, or is it the offense? Sure he catches a lot of passes and get decent yardage but then he finishes the season with 2 TD's.

IMO he is not an important part of the offense.
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AJ and Steve Slaton are the main reason OD gets so many touches. They draw so much attention that OD is usually lightly covered in the flats. Its not like he is Antonio Gates without a WR to open the field for him
 
I think some of us are spoiled by OD's play and don't realize how important he is to this offense.

2008 TE TARGETS

  1. Gonzalez 154
  2. Witten 121
  3. Cooley 111
  4. Clark 107
  5. Daniels 100
  6. Gates 92
  7. Zach Miller 86
  8. Scaife 84
  9. Olsen 82
  10. Winslow 82

2008 TE REC
  1. Gonzalez 96
  2. Cooley 83
  3. Witten 81
  4. Clark 77
  5. Daniels 70
  6. Gates 60
  7. Scaife 58
  8. Miller 56
  9. Carlson 55
  10. Olsen 54

2008 TE REC YDS
  1. Gonzalez 1058
  2. Witten 952
  3. Daniels 862
  4. Cooley 849
  5. Clark 848
  6. Miller 778
  7. Gates 704
  8. Scheffler 645
  9. Carlson 627
  10. Shiancoe 596

2008 TE REC FOR 1ST DOWN
  1. Gonzalez 67
  2. Witten 50
  3. Daniels 47
  4. Cooley 45
  5. Clark 41
  6. Gates 40
  7. Carlson 36
  8. Miller 32
  9. Keller 32
  10. Olsen 32

2008 TE REC YDS ON 3RD + 4TH DOWN
  1. Gonzalez 328
  2. Witten 322
  3. Daniels 235
  4. Gates 214
  5. Cooley 211
  6. Scaife 209
  7. B. Miller 176
  8. Olsen 163
  9. Clark 160
  10. Heap 157

Daniels is #1 in yards after catch among all AFC TEs with 430 and second in the NFL behind Chris Cooley's 475.

OD was second on the team in first down receptions with 47 behind you-know-who with 81. He had eight more catches for a first down than Walter and five more targets, but six fewer TDs. Walter caught all those TDs in part because of OD's threat in the red zone. Walter got twenty three red zone targets in 2008 and five TDs compared to OD's ten targets and two TDs.
 
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ArlingtonTexan said:
I think no way in heck a situation like this occurs, but

1) if a team would offer a 1st and 3rd for Daniels, do you really think they are not going have a high end contract along with it?

2) In terms of trade value, Daniels (and maybe not any TE in the league) is not worth a 1st and 3rd, so I agree the contract does not matter to me. I base this on the type of players who are traded for with first round picks. IMO, the only players on the Texan worth more than the 1st and 3rd are Mario amnd AJ with the good, healthy Schaub the only other possibility because of the scarcity of QBs.

Being an NFL GM requires a cold, hard understanding of value. That means like when value dictates trading player that you like a lot. This scenerio would force me to trade Owen Daniels. It is just business.
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I don't know about that one....we spent a lot of days in here on these boards for three years worrying about Jopru. I don't know if that frustration was worth two picks to you. But it is to me. Got a top guy at the position, young, smart, clean off the field...wouldn't you want the guy as your son in law ?

...pay the man.
 
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