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Offensive scheme moving forward

OptimisticTexan said:
Yeah, I'd like to see Cal have the stones like Crane did when he bought the Astros. Crane stepped up to the mic and laid out his plan and then went out and hired a top notch GM to make his vision a reality and a HC to execute he and his GM's vision. That union was special regardless of the stupidity that followed.

Cal, I guess stood behind Easterby and let him swing the axe on OB. It might've been Easterby seeing an opportunity and wanting to snatch the power from OB.....that prompted him to get into Cal's ear about OB needing to go. Cal may have been thinking this and told Easterby.....you want to do this, then you got to be the axe man.

Crane was pizzed that the team's WS got a big fat asterisk from baseball and had the stones to make one of the toughest decisions he ever had to make.....call Luhnow and Hinch in his office and fire both of them and then go in front of the media and announce his decision.

What will it take to see Cal take those steps in maturity?

His first step, send Easterby packing and announce a plan of attack for the Texans future and how he'll go about making it happen. That's what the fans are waiting for. We're also waiting to see him make that business degree from Rice worth more than the paper its's printed on.
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His vision is DW4/Easterby/ Pancakes helping him make the decision on who to hire to lead Janice's franchise. This franchise is so screwed. His business degree from Rice has served him quite well and his daddy taught him very well to at the art of making money. That's what he went to school for.
 
thunderkyss said:
I really don’t think it matters.

& I don’t mean that in a “Watson is a reclamation project at this point.” Kind of way.

He seems to ba able to run this offense when things go his way, when he can get into a rhythm.

I’d love to see him with a real run game.

& just like previous years, I think he’s been saddled with people who don’t know how to scout an opposing defense. It’s not until the third or fourth offensive possession that we have an idea who we’re playing.
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Game planning and play calling go hand in hand and a long way towards getting a QB settled into a rhythm. Both of those tended to be huge holes in OBs armor.
FWIW, I'm for a WCO but we need to keep in mind how much more verbose that system is compared to E-P. How the offseason plays out would be a major factor in how comfortable Watson could get calling plays in a WCO.
 
DocBar said:
Game planning and play calling go hand in hand and a long way towards getting a QB settled into a rhythm. Both of those tended to be huge holes in OBs armor.
FWIW, I'm for a WCO but we need to keep in mind how much more verbose that system is compared to E-P. How the offseason plays out would be a major factor in how comfortable Watson could get calling plays in a WCO.
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I like the WCO and when it works, it is almost impossible to stop. Walsh showed that as he tweaked the original version of Cornel (sp) who was the original one in basic principles to start it. Over the years, coaches have gone away from the original version I feel too much. The base concept is to always have someone open. Which is why when used right, you are not going to stop it easily. I have some serious concerns about Watson running the WCO at his current development. It call for timing, trusting your recivers (and that they will be where you put the ball), accurate passing and the "bail out".

I worry about Watson currently in 2 areas (maybe 3). First, accuracy has been ok. However, he has had bad descion making. Meaning he may overthink the placement and either toss and INT, get sacked or run when he has wide open recivers. Second is the "dump off", Walsh also called it something else. Which is the RB/FB/TE (normally) that have one job...to be open to avoid sacks or INTs. The tend to be in a flat and typically only get a yard or two. Yet it's important to keep moving forward and having an outlet on every pass play is a plus. Watson has been holding on to the ball too long. He doesn't throw it away. Making me feel he might beat a sack vs tossing a pass to the"dump off" player. Third, he has chemistry with Fuller. After that it is a toss up of who he will trust at reciver and TE. As I think the roster is going to alter in both areas by a large amount in the off-season. Stills is gone, Cooks could be gone and Fuller could also (after the PED stuff) I really think it is more likely. I don't know if a mini camp and pre season is going to be enough to get comfortable with the new recivers and TEs. Just got a feeling we will have another TE and 2-3 recivers (who play every game) who will be new.

As you stated, the verbage is not simple to learn either. It could be 4-8 games before it really starts coming together. Then you have to add in Watson and the things above.

Last, but not least, we have to get a RB who can run and catch well for a WCO to work. A FB would be great as another player who can help as a reciver, short yardage RB and blocker.

I pray that we don't go major RPO. It seems to be good for awhile. Then, Ds figure it out and it is not very good. Wentz or was it Goff, who were RPO for awhile and put up great numbers. Until the Ds started keying on certain things and then stopped them cold.
 
SnakeEyes said:
I like the WCO and when it works, it is almost impossible to stop. Walsh showed that as he tweaked the original version of Cornel (sp) who was the original one in basic principles to start it. Over the years, coaches have gone away from the original version I feel too much. The base concept is to always have someone open. Which is why when used right, you are not going to stop it easily. I have some serious concerns about Watson running the WCO at his current development. It call for timing, trusting your recivers (and that they will be where you put the ball), accurate passing and the "bail out".

I worry about Watson currently in 2 areas (maybe 3). First, accuracy has been ok. However, he has had bad descion making. Meaning he may overthink the placement and either toss and INT, get sacked or run when he has wide open recivers. Second is the "dump off", Walsh also called it something else. Which is the RB/FB/TE (normally) that have one job...to be open to avoid sacks or INTs. The tend to be in a flat and typically only get a yard or two. Yet it's important to keep moving forward and having an outlet on every pass play is a plus. Watson has been holding on to the ball too long. He doesn't throw it away. Making me feel he might beat a sack vs tossing a pass to the"dump off" player. Third, he has chemistry with Fuller. After that it is a toss up of who he will trust at reciver and TE. As I think the roster is going to alter in both areas by a large amount in the off-season. Stills is gone, Cooks could be gone and Fuller could also (after the PED stuff) I really think it is more likely. I don't know if a mini camp and pre season is going to be enough to get comfortable with the new recivers and TEs. Just got a feeling we will have another TE and 2-3 recivers (who play every game) who will be new.

As you stated, the verbage is not simple to learn either. It could be 4-8 games before it really starts coming together. Then you have to add in Watson and the things above.

Last, but not least, we have to get a RB who can run and catch well for a WCO to work. A FB would be great as another player who can help as a reciver, short yardage RB and blocker.

I pray that we don't go major RPO. It seems to be good for awhile. Then, Ds figure it out and it is not very good. Wentz or was it Goff, who were RPO for awhile and put up great numbers. Until the Ds started keying on certain things and then stopped them cold.
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I'm not as worried as you seem to be about Watson. Watson isn't being asked to do the things required in a WCO. He's being asked to do the things required of a spread offense with deep, slow developing routes. IMO he will do just fine with the timing routes, throwing to a spot, etc. as long as he has enough off season reps to get comfortable with it and his receivers.
 
DocBar said:
He's being asked to do the things required of a spread offense with deep, slow developing routes
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Why do you believe this? Other posters have repeatedly stated this isn't true & have posted links, video, & pictures to support their case.

They contend (actually it's only Corrosion) that DW4 chooses to wait on the deep routes & ignores the shorter ones.

I agree with him, that it happens more times than not. Where I disagree is that a lot of the times based on situation it is the right decision. Or at least plausible.
 
thunderkyss said:
Why do you believe this? Other posters have repeatedly stated this isn't true & have posted links, video, & pictures to support their case.

They contend (actually it's only Corrosion) that DW4 chooses to wait on the deep routes & ignores the shorter ones.

I agree with him, that it happens more times than not. Where I disagree is that a lot of the times based on situation it is the right decision. Or at least plausible.
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If you listen to the talking heads on NFL tv and radio, they talk about Watson dumping it off too often to his check down back or TE. Sometimes. They also talk about him holding on to the ball too long. Sometimes. They also talk about how Watson has grown as a QB and is more willing to hit the check down or just throw the ball away instead of forcing a throw and having a negative play as a consequence.
My eyes tend to see the latter, but I've become a fan of Watson. Maybe I see a bit too much of what I want to see. How well I remember all of the flak I received for not being a fan of the Texans trading up to get him, though.
 
thunderkyss said:
Why do you believe this? Other posters have repeatedly stated this isn't true & have posted links, video, & pictures to support their case.

They contend (actually it's only Corrosion) that DW4 chooses to wait on the deep routes & ignores the shorter ones.

I agree with him, that it happens more times than not. Where I disagree is that a lot of the times based on situation it is the right decision. Or at least plausible.
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I agree with you. And I have never heard anything about him not holding the ball too long. You don't get sacked like he has if you are not holding it too long. A play is what 5sec, maybe the QB has the ball. True a blind side blitz is different. But if you see it and even roll to avoid at first, if you are holding the ball too long you get hit. That's a sack. If you read it right and then run out of the box and throw it away, that's a smart move. Watson is prone to scramble and then get sacked. Meaning he is either not reading the D or holding the ball too long. Which is why Thunder is right. If you look for deep passes all the time... you hold it until you see it open. In this situation the D hit you and your sacked for no gain or a loss. So, it goes both ways with the sack total. As you stated NFL tv and such say he is dumping it off too much. That's half true, seeing again if you hold it for too long you are going to get sacked...or a fast dump off. And NFL.com listed every starting QBs worst trait of 20-21 season. Watson was descion making ability. Which says he is either waiting to long or not throwing it to the right place. Which is why I worry about him in a WCO. Fast reads, ability to change plays, knowing if option "A" is covered (pre snap all of this) and what to switch to, throwing it to the left hash on the 20 and trusting reciver "B" will be there.
 
SnakeEyes said:
I agree with you. And I have never heard anything about him not holding the ball too long. You don't get sacked like he has if you are not holding it too long. A play is what 5sec, maybe the QB has the ball. True a blind side blitz is different. But if you see it and even roll to avoid at first, if you are holding the ball too long you get hit. That's a sack. If you read it right and then run out of the box and throw it away, that's a smart move. Watson is prone to scramble and then get sacked. Meaning he is either not reading the D or holding the ball too long. Which is why Thunder is right. If you look for deep passes all the time... you hold it until you see it open. In this situation the D hit you and your sacked for no gain or a loss. So, it goes both ways with the sack total. As you stated NFL tv and such say he is dumping it off too much. That's half true, seeing again if you hold it for too long you are going to get sacked...or a fast dump off. And NFL.com listed every starting QBs worst trait of 20-21 season. Watson was descion making ability. Which says he is either waiting to long or not throwing it to the right place. Which is why I worry about him in a WCO. Fast reads, ability to change plays, knowing if option "A" is covered (pre snap all of this) and what to switch to, throwing it to the left hash on the 20 and trusting reciver "B" will be there.
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post the link to the list
 
thunderkyss said:
Why do you believe this? Other posters have repeatedly stated this isn't true & have posted links, video, & pictures to support their case.

They contend (actually it's only Corrosion) that DW4 chooses to wait on the deep routes & ignores the shorter ones.

I agree with him, that it happens more times than not. Where I disagree is that a lot of the times based on situation it is the right decision. Or at least plausible.
Click to expand...

My big issue with this take is the stats don't back it up. He has had one of the higher checkdown rates in the league.

www.pff.com

Captain Checkdown: The quarterbacks who most and least rely on checkdown passes | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

While Blake Bortles has utilized the checkdown pass at a high rate, Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen has avoided such plays.
www.pff.com www.pff.com
 
dream_team said:
My big issue with this take is the stats don't back it up. He has had one of the higher checkdown rates in the league.

www.pff.com

Captain Checkdown: The quarterbacks who most and least rely on checkdown passes | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

While Blake Bortles has utilized the checkdown pass at a high rate, Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen has avoided such plays.
www.pff.com www.pff.com
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So you don't believe Watson is the victim of a spread offense calling too many slow developing routes?
DocBar said:
He's being asked to do the things required of a spread offense with deep, slow developing routes.
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Which was the comment I was replying to.
 
thunderkyss said:
So you don't believe Watson is the victim of a spread offense calling too many slow developing routes?

Which was the comment I was replying to.
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Ah, I was responding to the comment (which you state isn't from you):

... DW4 chooses to wait on the deep routes & ignores the shorter ones.
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Ignoring shorter routes contradicts the stats, which say he throws to his check-down quite often.

But yes, this is an offensive scheme that looks to attack vertically (aka slow developing routes). This is fine, many teams have been successful w/ this type of offense. Texans problem is you NEED good pass pro. BOB invested alot into our OL, but for whatever reason, whether it's coaching or talent, we're not getting the pass pro required (particularly against the good defenses).
 
Earl34 said:
Looking at the Colts game, LBers were sitting in zones 5-10 yard from the LOS. Not once did the Texans pick a LB. Not once did I see a similar play. These are the things every good offense is doing multiple times a game.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1334191761170849800
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There are times (not very often) I do see the Texans try pick or rub plays, it's just the execution is horrible! Just like screen plays. Yes, we do occasionally run a screen, they are just horrendously executed. IMO, goes back to coaching & preparation. BOB seemed like a coach that didn't hamper on the finer details.
 
Corrosion said:
Watch the 3rd play in both views and tell me what you see ?
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What i see is watson initially had his eyes on the wr running the curl route (1st read) by the time he went to his 2nd/3rd read, pressure was already in his face. Im suprised he got the ball out tbh. Couldve ditched it off to the rb but there was already a LB bearing down on him.

Well thats what it looks like to me:thinking:
 
Earl34 said:
This is classic Watson. While watching this play, once he rolls out, I was shouting "Duke is open underneath". Then he goes deep to Coutee and I said, "great play". My point? Watson walks a fine line between always taking the safe, short throw and risks of going downfield.

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Exactly the point I was making in the post where I asked you what you saw in that play - He had a guy running wide open , literally uncovered underneath the coverage and passed on that option for a deeper one that took an amazing play on both ends to make the connection.

Sometimes it works and when it does , its awesome to watch .... But when it doesn't ...

He's got to be more selective about when he takes those risks , its often unnecessary and counter productive.
 
Corrosion said:
Exactly the point I was making in the post where I asked you what you saw in that play - He had a guy running wide open , literally uncovered underneath the coverage and passed on that option for a deeper one that took an amazing play on both ends to make the connection.
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I moved this post to this thread as this is the thread with the video we're discussing.

There was a time when I agreed with you. I saw the same thing. Last year.

I think he is doing a better job now, picking & choosing when to fight & when to take what he's given.

Above your post is a screenshot of the play you're talking about as Watson is dropping back.

Keep in mind it's 3rd & 8. What is it you're saying Watson should do?
 
thunderkyss said:
I moved this post to this thread as this is the thread with the video we're discussing.

There was a time when I agreed with you. I saw the same thing. Last year.

I think he is doing a better job now, picking & choosing when to fight & when to take what he's given.

Above your post is a screenshot of the play you're talking about as Watson is dropping back.

Keep in mind it's 3rd & 8. What is it you're saying Watson should do?
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On this play , I was making no particular statement on "what he should do".

Just pointing out that this is typical Watson - The protection is adequate , there's an open short or intermediate route and he makes the decision not to take those easy yards.
He hangs onto the ball - protection usually breaks down and he's forced to make a miraculous play ... or not. And he makes quite a few of them.

This is why he's rated so highly in things like "Big Time Throws" and why he leads the league in Yards per attempt while being several percentage points down the list in completion percentage.

Most fans see these "Miraculous plays" and "Big Time Throws" - highlight plays and think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread but don't want to talk about the negative or net zero plays that cripple a possession.

He wouldn't have to make these "miraculous plays" if he'd take the easy yards and move the chains.
 
Earl34 said:
Here is an interesting stat on the predictability of the current scheme. That has been one of my complaints about this scheme. The lack of motion and formations. Kelly has continued this trend.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339805680140771328
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I remember when Jimmy Graham was a badass. Whichever team he was on, the defense knew what they were going to do based on where he was lined up.
 
Corrosion said:
Exactly the point I was making in the post where I asked you what you saw in that play - He had a guy running wide open , literally uncovered underneath the coverage and passed on that option for a deeper one that took an amazing play on both ends to make the connection.

Sometimes it works and when it does , its awesome to watch .... But when it doesn't ...

He's got to be more selective about when he takes those risks , its often unnecessary and counter productive.
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Maybe I’m not following correctly but it was 3rd and 8 and you wanted him to throw it 3 yards to Duke?
 
Earl34 said:
Here is an interesting stat on the predictability of the current scheme. That has been one of my complaints about this scheme. The lack of motion and formations. Kelly has continued this trend.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339805680140771328
Click to expand...

Yeah, BUT - on play 200 of Akins lining up in the slot/wide - they are going to completely fool the defense and rip off a 6 yard run up the middle, and it would have all been worth it. It's called planning ahead, very advanced stuff.
 
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