O'Brien You need to deliver... yesterday.

[Texecutioner]

So that takes coaching out of there picture?

One coaching staff did a great job getting a team to the Super Bowl. The other coaching staff didn't do jack shtick to get that same team to the Super Bowl two years later...



Not holding water.

I'm not responding to this junk any further. 3 of us pretty much explained it as easy as it can be explained with fact based stats that you completely ignored so I'll just continue to call it a troll comment that you're using for the sake of arguing which is weird. You're not fooling me to think you believe that crap any way.

 

[Insideop]

I have been reading these comments about Kubes and BOB on this MB for awhile now and have come to the conclusion that no one on here knows the real truth about either coach and why they may have failed or succeeded at one time or another with this team or that team! And WE (people on this MB) will never know the real truth! Oh we can guess and surmise and throw out statistics to prove our point, but in the end, are we really going to convince or prove anything to anybody? Probably not, but I'm going to try anyway!

So with that said, I'd like to say that I like both coaches! I liked Kubes because he brought us our 1st winning seasons, 1st 2 Division Championships, and 1st playoff wins. He and Rick built a solid team that I really believed had a chance to win it all. But, after 2 years (2012 & 2013) of losing FA's (Mario, DeMeco, Barwin, Winston, Breisel, Quinn, etc...), your best players to injury (Cushing, Foster, JJo, etc...), and Schaub's total collapse, I guess a 2-14 team was to be expected. This doesn't include the Ed Reed debacle, Kubiak's stroke on the sideline, or the terrible draft they had that year (Only Hop is left.). Now I know a lot of you on here didn't like that Kubes brought the "West Coast Offense" to run here and most thought/think it is a rinky-dink offense to run and everybody knows whats coming. Personally, I think it is still a viable offensive system but it is an offense that has to have all the correct pieces in place, especially the O-line, and they have to have played together for awhile to be successful. That, to me, is one of the biggest reasons the Texans fell apart in 2013. They didn't have the pieces anymore with Foster out, Wade Smith to old, Brown and Newton battling injuries, and Schaub's arm failure to run the WCO. And that's the weakness in that type of offense. Now, I will say Kubes did a pretty good job in Denver (I know Texecutioner will disagree) trying to implement a Hybrid WCO for Manning, with an O-line that was in shambles (All Pro LT out all season, RT played 3 games, Rookie 6th rd C), an aging Owen Daniels as your TE, and 2 RB's that were OK (Anderson - 849 yds rush and Hillman - 434 yds rush in 2014). I do agree it was the Defense that got them where they are but I can't agree that the Offense did nothing. And, with Osweiler in there, especially that game with NE, that Offense looked very good at times. Was it a top 3 Offense last year? Not with that O-line and Manning's demise, but it was good enough (16th overall, 14th in passing, 17th in rushing)!

I like BOB because he seems to get the most out of his players, his style of Offense is every Offense and they play to the opponents weaknesses. This makes him more flexible and not tied down to any particular style of Offense, and that's good because when they do bring in new players (like Weeden) they can say here's our playbook, what plays do you like to run? This has helped him to get two 9-7 seasons which I think is very respectable. Did he have more talent on this team when he got here than Kubes did when he got here? Yes! When Kubes got here in 06 he had AJ, Pitts, and Seth Payne. When BOB got here he had Watt, JJo, KJ, Mercilus, a recovering Cushing, D Brown, Myers, Newton, an old AJ, a young Nuk, and a recovering Foster. He had an OK foundation but the one area that it was lacking was at QB and, to me, that's the most critical area for a team. And, as with any new coach, he wanted to bring in his own type of QB and his own type of players. This is where his teaming with Smith may have been a bad mixture in the 2014 Draft, and I'm not sure who had final say between the 2, but I believe it was BOB with offensive players. I will say that shortly after that Draft I really thought they had done a pretty decent job, though I wasn't really happy with the Clowney pick. As that 1st season wore on I started thinking they had totally bombed it with Clowney out, Su'a Filo not playing at all, Fiedorowicz not playing much, and Nix a total bust! But, with the exception of Nix, I think the rest of that Draft class will be good solid players for BOB and they have done OK, even Clowney, this past season. I also think that BOB and Smith have worked things out as far as the draft goes and you can see that the past 2 drafts that they seemed to be more in sync, and I think they have really been able to get the team headed back in the right direction. Especially this past off season with the FA pickups of Osweiler, Miller, and Allen and then drafting Fuller, B. Miller, Martin, etc... The only negative I have is I wish they would have drafted more O-linemen the past 2 seasons.

To wrap this up I just want to say that I like Kubes and BOB. But, Kubes is not here anymore and there's nothing anyone can do about that! I think he poured everything he had into this team while he was here and I appreciate everything he did accomplish for the team, but it's time to move on. We have Bill O'Brien here now and he's our coach! I'm excited for the new season and what it will bring and I think BOB, and Rick Smith too, have the team going in the right direction!


Ok, Ill get off my now!

 

[Fred]

You're lying out of your teeth.

I never said such thing.

I actually spelled out the things Hopkins needed to do to become a legitimate no. 1 receiver.
And he did just that.

OK, I guess one of us is a lying POS.

With AJ on the team, and how the Texans like to distribute the ball to their TEs and RBs, FBs, it's probably more realistic to expect the low 30s for Hopkins.
Anything else is gravy.

Let's take a look at his 13-catch game against LSU.
SEC defense, you think they would be good, right?
Well, the strength of that D is the front line; when that front line couldn't get to the QB, their back end can not hold up; and that was what happened in that game.

Out of his 13 catches, 2 were bubble screens when there was nobody on him.
2 were into the zone, and 9 were covered one-on-one.
There were 7 or 8 incompletions where Hopkins didn't get enough separation.

The 3 guys that were on him were two freshmen (#32 and #28) and Tharold Simon #24.

Simon is a tall corner who is not very agile; that was why he was drafted in the 5th round.
One freshman was the 22nd ranked CB in his class (ie., he's likely not to get drafted in 2015 when he comes out.)
The other was ranked 34th in his class (ie., he's not going to be drafted in 2015 unless he improves significantly.)

Among those catches, there was one he caught with one foot in bound.

How many do you think he would have gotten against NFL-caliber CB?

Hopkins had another 13-catch game, against Auburn, last year SEC weakling.

Their two starting CBs were ranked in the 70-90 something in their draft class (ie., they won't be even playing in the arena league when they complete their college career.)

Then there was an 11-catch game against BC, a bottom feeder in a weak conference. They lost their starting CB before the season started (he was a Sophomore); the guy that replaced him was another sophomore who got injured in the second game of the season.
The other starting CB was another sophomore who was unranked in his class.
His backup was another unranked Sophomore. I haven't checked the game to see whether this backup was the starter, but it doesn't matter.
Whoever else played for the Eagles wasn't on the 2-deep depth chart to start the season.

Against Florida St., Hopkins had 5 catches.

The long one was on a post route where the CB Rhodes left him to take on the slot receiver on an out route. The safety bit the play fake and left Hopkins wide open.

Rhodes allowed a short pass (about 5-6 yards).

Two other short catches were on the freshman Darby who wasn't on the two-deep depth chart.

The fifth catch was a bubble screen for short yardage as well.

No, what I said is to temper your enthusiasm a little bit.

Next, in the game against N.C. St., Hopkins caught two passes for 75 yards, both were against David Amerson.
Amerson is a guy all the draftniks here know.
He had given up a ton of big plays this last year.

Hopkins caught one ball for 13 yards when Amerson gave a big cushion and couldn't react back quick enough.
The long ball was when Amerson bit on a double move on the 9 route.

There were five or six balls that were either defended, or straight dropped by Hopkins, or jarred loose by the defender on the hit.

Two other good games were against Ball St and Furman, neither had the team nor the CB that was worth a lick, so it's better to scratch those off.

Against Georgia Tech, a team with no drafted player, Hopkins saw a combination of zone and man.
One CB that was on him is an UDFA for the Saints; the other was a Jr with some speed that may or may not get drafted next year (he wasn't burned deep by Hopkins.)

Hopkins had 7 catches and a ton of yards.
The longest catch was for some 50 yards on a broken play.
Boyd scrambled around and found Hopkins on the side line with nobody covering him.
The next long play went for some 35-40 yards and a TD.
The Yellow jackets were in cover 2 zone under.
The responsible safety bought the pump fake by Boyd, while Hopkins cut back toward the corner on the post corner route.
This was really scheme and mistake by the D and a good job by the QB at least as much as Hopkins's route running. He didn't really beat anybody.
A short pass into the zone turned into a long play of some 25-30 yards when the safety took a bad angle coming up.
Another short pass went for a decent gain when the CB went for the ball and missed.
The other three catches were short passes.
There was may be one receiver in this draft that I would put in the first round, and that is Patterson (and I'm not too thrilled about his interview, so there was concern there.)

Tavon Austin is a guy I hesitated to consider highly because I prefer not to draft a slot guy in the first; however, he's really dynamic with the ball, so he's a borderline first rounder for me.

The only other guy that I thought of as having potential as a first rounder was Keenan Allen,

I uploaded some screen shots of the LSU game to photobucket.
See for yourself:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/user/76Texan/slideshow/Hopkins/vs LSU


Play 1 - 10:52 Second Qtr
Defender forced Hopkins out of bound.

Play 2 - 13:50 Third Qtr
Hopkins couldn't hold on to the ball as LB pulled his arms apart.
Also, it looks like he caugh the nose of the football.

Play 3 - 1:42 Third Qtr
On a quick in, Hopkins couldn't on to the ball as the safety came up with a hit that jarred the ball loose.

Play 4 - 3:53 Fourth Qtr
Hopkins allowed the CB Simon to pin him to the side line, not giving the QB much room to work with.
He didn't get any separation, and thus had a hard time with the play.
One or two more steps inside and he would have the room along the side line to use his body to shield the defender from the ball.
Look how he got closer and closer to the sideline on the vertical stem.
Toward the end of the play, he was on the white little yard markers along the side line;
that is just too close to the side line.
He let the CB win the inside position.

Play 5 - 1:38 Fourth Qtr
The ball went right through his hands.


Play 5 - 1:32 Fourth Qtr
Hopkins could have pressed the route a couple yards further before he made the come back.
No separation allowed the CB to be right on him.
The ball was right where it needed to be if only he had worked a couple more yard downfield
(maybe 3 yards past the down marker before turning around.)

Play 6
Hopkins would have done better taking a straight stem or took it a little to the outside first;
instead, he started his stem to the inside immediately, giving the safety a clue to the quick in route.
It was a bang bang play; the commentator saw no reason for a PI call.
(But that's beside the point; Hopkins could have taken a better stem on the route.)

For the still shots that you can view one by one, click here:

http://s1217.photobucket.com/user/76Texan/library/Hopkins/vs LSU

First, click on the top left photo.
When you get to the View Page, you can use the NEXT button to move along the series.

A receiver's production is directly tied with his QB.
If he has a good QB, the receiver should be helped.

In the same article, you would find that Tyler Bray didn't help Hunter as he missed quite a few deep balls.

By the same token, Zac Maynard didn't help Kennan Allen (who isn't a speed guy to start) with his weak arm.
Hopkins faced nowhere near the competition.

And you already know that pre-draft, I had even downgraded Allen's status to unknown, due to his lack of speed and injury concern.

My position was to trade out of the first round.
Take whichever receiver you like in the second, and use the extra picks on other positions of your preference.

The Patriots trade was there, so it's not like it's not do-able.

BTW, Mike Mayock, who may be the most reputable draft analyst out there, did not have Hopkins in the first round.
Both CBS Sports and NFL Draft Scout also had him solidly in the second.

For me, the key things are as followed:

You have about 6-1/2 years to build a team, or do you guys want to give your HC more time? Be up front about it.

Each year, you only have one first round pick unless your GM is so good he sold other teams a bill of goods, trading a third for next year first.
On a few occasion, some team may be willing to give your their future first for this year high second to mid second rounder.

Basically, you need to use your first round picks on the most important positions of your team.

A LT, a QB, a number one receiver, for example.
And maybe a RB (if you definitely wants to build a run first team) or maybe a TE (if your team place TE at a premium), or perhaps a Center (if you think he's really really good).

On defense, you may choose to go with a monster interior linman, an edge rusher, a big time Inside LB, a number one CB, or a great safety.

How many positions that are named already?
More than 7.

If you use a first round pick on a number two receiver, you're failing your team.

We have to evaluate Hopkins as the number one receiver in a couple of years.
The bar has to be set high.
It wasn't his fault that he got drafted in the first, but it is what it is.

There is your logic fail.

If only your first round picks contribute, you're failing your team. "Number two" receiver means starter. And seriously - all this "he can never be a number one receiver" stuff: he will never be Megatron or Andre but there aren't 32 of them in the league. If you pick a 10 year starter who becomes only the 16th best receiver in the NFL with the #27 pick that is pretty good. If you pick a number one receiver like Charles Rogers with the #2 pick, or Troy Williamson with the #7 pick then you are failing your team.

So you expected Hopkins to be a number one receiver?
Or do you mean that you don't mind spending a first round pick on a number two?

If you don't mind taking a number two receiver with a first round pick, it's fine with me. It's just not my preference.

I like to have a guy with good potential to become a number one or as good as a number one on other teams with my first round pick.

I think you want a combination of as many test scores as possible:
The 10-yd split, the vertical, the broad jump - all are designed to measure the explosiveness of a receiver (and the forty time is also a consideration, with the 3-cone time not as important for receivers.)
Hopkins isn't among the top guys with a good combination of those tests.

I don't mind spending a first round pick on a #2 (which is duh, a starting position) and frankly your whole point on this is months late. WR for the Texans was a top consideration since draft talk began.

Oh and to state what should be ludicrously obvious - ANY WR BROUGHT IN WITH AJ WAS GOING TO BE THE #2 WR.

True, but there are other options.

1. Take the trade with the Vikings to get their second, third, fourth, and seventh that Bilichick was able to swindle with a lower draft choice than ours.
Use those 4 picks plus the pick for Bonner to acquire 5 receivers (if you want to), a couple might be risky if selected alone. But with 5 picks, you can afford to take some risks with guys like Swope, Da'rick Rogers, Marcus Davis, Mark Harrison, Rodney Smith, etc.
Or you can use one or two of those picks to move back up.
Or you can use one or two of those picks to get players at other position.
Or you can trade them away for future picks that you can combine with your first next year to grab a better prospect.
(Like I had said before, there will be some very interesting prospects next year.)

That's fine; I've already stated that it is my "preference" to find a real play-maker in my system (whether it's on the offensive side or defensive side).
Other people can have their own preference.

As far as draft-day trades goes, Belichik averages 3.71 trades per draft.
I share his philosophy.
http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story...iots-trade-first-round-pick-minnesota-vikings

BTW, the Pats used those four picks on http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2013-patriots-draft-picks
WR Aaron Dobson, WR Josh Boyd, CB LoganRyan, and Edge Rusher Michael Buchanan.

Sounds like a mess of pottage; no, I do not want to trade Hopkins for those guys.

Your earlier post of draft 4 or 5 WRs and hope one pans out: we already have/had a pile of Posey, Martin, Jean, Maehl, Walter, J Jones, D Jones, Anderson, Holliday, Mathis. Instead of 5 more of those lets go for someone better. If Hopkins is not better than those guys then this pick was a failure (as many picks are). But trading the pick to get 4 more JAGs is definitely a failure.

As to your argument that only spread teams need as many as 2 good WRs, I would counter that all offenses except the wishbone need at least 2 good WRs.

I get it 76...... You're an expert analyst. Your talents are clearly going to waste then I guess. You should be getting paid 6 figures with how good you are at what you do when you KNOW when the Texans have wasted a pick. Rick Smith needs to have you on speed dial. You're funny though man.... Please continue.

I got that from the beginning.

I'm not dense, LOL!

At any rate, I didn't even mean to drag this out so long.
I'd rather spend my time evaluating the rest of the guys.

But forums are supposed to be a place where people exchange ideas; at least, that's my thinking.
Like politics, I don't care who's right and who's wrong, and I don't take anything personal.

So, let's rest it here, shall we?

 

[Fred]

Basically you analyzed every catch he had in college and declared every single one was a fluke (bubble screen, QB threw him open, CB's crutch broke). Lots of bashing for using pick 27 to pick a #2 receiver with a very low probability of becoming a #1. Your brillant analysis was to trade Hopkins for Aaron Dobson, Logan Ryan, Josh Boyce, and Michael Buchanan.

 

[speedfreek]

when most of your wins come against the worst division in the NFL
you don't build credibility as an elite coach. (pushing around
slappies like the Jags and the Titans isn't worthy of praise --
everyone else seems to have no problems doing it either..)

Our team is loaded with professionals -- they had better not
"quit on their coach". They're paid to play W or L.

BoB takes a step back this year (after the ridiculous musical chairs
game he has played at QB) he deserves to be let go.

Someone like....Buttfumble?

"Better QB than Hoyer" is a very low standard.



So why didn't above "average" Kubiak do better in 2014 with almost the same roster? [Rhetorical question, I know the fanboy excuses already.]

Yeah, the team was curb stomped twice by 40 at halftimes last year, and most fans (including myself) wrote off the season at that point.

Funny thing happened. though. In spite of those losses, the team never quit on O'Brien, and they ended up posting a winning record. It's fine to criticize a coach. But, it is dishonest to act like there is nothing worth praising, all things considered.

It's a results driven business. People are delusional to think the past two years of results are worth firing the head coach.

 

[ChampionTexan]

This is kinda like calling Joe Flacco elite & saying Peyton is just another QB.

Flacco doing well in the playoffs doesn't minimize what Peyton did.

A poor analogy on any level.

First, Denver's defensive performance in the playoffs wasn't uncharacteristically good - maybe slightly better than average, but as opposed to Flacco being an average regular season QB, and then going nuts in the playoffs, the Broncos were a top defense in the regular season (First in yardage, fourth in scoring), and were a top defense in the playoffs.

Secondly, the Texans had one game in the first seven where the opposing team scored fewer than 20 points, and five where they opposing team scored 24 or more. I don't care what they did the remaining 9 regular season games, when you're evaluating the 2015 season in it's entirety, that's not a Peyton Manning level performance (Other than perhaps the first and last seasons of his career). You can't play poorly for almost half the games (playoff loss included) in the season and turn around and claim you were an elite defense.

Again, the Texans were as good as the Broncos for 9 games of the 2015 season. That doesn't change the fact that the 2015 season consisted of 17 games.

 

[thunderkyss]

I never said the Texans were as good as the Broncos for 16 games. When it was all said & done with, our defense, as well as KC's & Seattle's were in the ballpark. Any of those teams win the Super Bowl & it would have been on the strength of their defense.

Just because Brady is elite does not mean Peyton isn't. That's basically the Flacco analogy.

I think the Broncos defense was very good. I don't think they were in a class by themselves.

 

[Texansballer74]

I have been reading these comments about Kubes and BOB on this MB for awhile now and have come to the conclusion that no one on here knows the real truth about either coach and why they may have failed or succeeded at one time or another with this team or that team! And WE (people on this MB) will never know the real truth! Oh we can guess and surmise and throw out statistics to prove our point, but in the end, are we really going to convince or prove anything to anybody? Probably not, but I'm going to try anyway!

So with that said, I'd like to say that I like both coaches! I liked Kubes because he brought us our 1st winning seasons, 1st 2 Division Championships, and 1st playoff wins. He and Rick built a solid team that I really believed had a chance to win it all. But, after 2 years (2012 & 2013) of losing FA's (Mario, DeMeco, Barwin, Winston, Breisel, Quinn, etc...), your best players to injury (Cushing, Foster, JJo, etc...), and Schaub's total collapse, I guess a 2-14 team was to be expected. This doesn't include the Ed Reed debacle, Kubiak's stroke on the sideline, or the terrible draft they had that year (Only Hop is left.). Now I know a lot of you on here didn't like that Kubes brought the "West Coast Offense" to run here and most thought/think it is a rinky-dink offense to run and everybody knows whats coming. Personally, I think it is still a viable offensive system but it is an offense that has to have all the correct pieces in place, especially the O-line, and they have to have played together for awhile to be successful. That, to me, is one of the biggest reasons the Texans fell apart in 2013. They didn't have the pieces anymore with Foster out, Wade Smith to old, Brown and Newton battling injuries, and Schaub's arm failure to run the WCO. And that's the weakness in that type of offense. Now, I will say Kubes did a pretty good job in Denver (I know Texecutioner will disagree) trying to implement a Hybrid WCO for Manning, with an O-line that was in shambles (All Pro LT out all season, RT played 3 games, Rookie 6th rd C), an aging Owen Daniels as your TE, and 2 RB's that were OK (Anderson - 849 yds rush and Hillman - 434 yds rush in 2014). I do agree it was the Defense that got them where they are but I can't agree that the Offense did nothing. And, with Osweiler in there, especially that game with NE, that Offense looked very good at times. Was it a top 3 Offense last year? Not with that O-line and Manning's demise, but it was good enough (16th overall, 14th in passing, 17th in rushing)!

I like BOB because he seems to get the most out of his players, his style of Offense is every Offense and they play to the opponents weaknesses. This makes him more flexible and not tied down to any particular style of Offense, and that's good because when they do bring in new players (like Weeden) they can say here's our playbook, what plays do you like to run? This has helped him to get two 9-7 seasons which I think is very respectable. Did he have more talent on this team when he got here than Kubes did when he got here? Yes! When Kubes got here in 06 he had AJ, Pitts, and Seth Payne. When BOB got here he had Watt, JJo, KJ, Mercilus, a recovering Cushing, D Brown, Myers, Newton, an old AJ, a young Nuk, and a recovering Foster. He had an OK foundation but the one area that it was lacking was at QB and, to me, that's the most critical area for a team. And, as with any new coach, he wanted to bring in his own type of QB and his own type of players. This is where his teaming with Smith may have been a bad mixture in the 2014 Draft, and I'm not sure who had final say between the 2, but I believe it was BOB with offensive players. I will say that shortly after that Draft I really thought they had done a pretty decent job, though I wasn't really happy with the Clowney pick. As that 1st season wore on I started thinking they had totally bombed it with Clowney out, Su'a Filo not playing at all, Fiedorowicz not playing much, and Nix a total bust! But, with the exception of Nix, I think the rest of that Draft class will be good solid players for BOB and they have done OK, even Clowney, this past season. I also think that BOB and Smith have worked things out as far as the draft goes and you can see that the past 2 drafts that they seemed to be more in sync, and I think they have really been able to get the team headed back in the right direction. Especially this past off season with the FA pickups of Osweiler, Miller, and Allen and then drafting Fuller, B. Miller, Martin, etc... The only negative I have is I wish they would have drafted more O-linemen the past 2 seasons.

To wrap this up I just want to say that I like Kubes and BOB. But, Kubes is not here anymore and there's nothing anyone can do about that! I think he poured everything he had into this team while he was here and I appreciate everything he did accomplish for the team, but it's time to move on. We have Bill O'Brien here now and he's our coach! I'm excited for the new season and what it will bring and I think BOB, and Rick Smith too, have the team going in the right direction!


Ok, Ill get off my now!

Brother you went all out. Plus 1

 

[Texian]

I don't think Mcnair controls this stuff the way you do, but I don't like Mcnair at all. I think he is one of the top 5 dumbest owners in the NFL, but for different reasons. I think Mcnair is lazy, and gets anxiety over the idea of having to work with another GM for one. Him and Smith look so cozy together all the time in their suite, and I think he has taking a huge personal liking to Smith to where he just doesn't want to let him go. Will he bypass Smith and take over for certain calls? He probably has. How many times? I'm not sure, but Mcnair to me is just an owner that cares about stacking dough and creating a nice festival atmosphere on game day where people can have fun. He has never been highly committed to dominance to me. As long as fans are selling out games, and partying in the parking lots for tailgating events, I think that suits him just fine. Owning a team is fun for him, but winning isn't everything to him like us fans want it to be.

I believe that McNair sees Smith as his assistant in whom he is well pleased. I also believe that a picture can tell the story and the picture of The Texans draft day war room with McNair on the front row and everyone else sitting behind him (including O'Brien and Smith) tells a story and sends a message. Nowhere else do see this setup or arrangement in NFL draft war rooms. I agree with you in that the bar to McNairs Commitment to Excellence (product on the field) is set pretty low. Your description of McNair as an owner is well said and on the money.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

I believe that McNair sees Smith as his assistant in whom he is well pleased. I also believe that a picture can tell the story and the picture of The Texans draft day war room with McNair on the front row and everyone else sitting behind him (including O'Brien and Smith) tells a story and sends a message. Nowhere else do see this setup or arrangement in NFL draft war rooms. I agree with you in that the bar to McNairs Commitment to Excellence (product on the field) is set pretty low. Your description of McNair as an owner is well said and on the money.

I still can't believe your hung up on where they sat on draft day. That is what loses you a lot of credibility to a lot of folks, you are reading a great deal into where a person chooses to have their butt. Sure Mcnair was at the front of the room, at that point in time, maybe he just walked in from taking a nap, I don't know, and more importantly neither do you and using it as some sign of whose in charge is ignorant.

I would more likely believe, "I paid a billion dollars for the team, you bet your ass I'm in charge. I also paid for these seats, I'm going to f***'n sit in all of them before the day is over".

Just stick to facts and stop quoting what you perceive as the truth. I bet going to dinner with you is fun, do you make the wait staff place your chair higher than the rest of your guest in a clear sign of dominance? Jeez we aren't in the 12th century anymore.

 

[Texian]

I still can't believe your hung up on where they sat on draft day. That is what loses you a lot of credibility to a lot of folks, you are reading a great deal into where a person chooses to have their butt. Sure Mcnair was at the front of the room, at that point in time, maybe he just walked in from taking a nap, I don't know, and more importantly neither do you and using it as some sign of whose in charge is ignorant.

I would more likely believe, "I paid a billion dollars for the team, you bet your ass I'm in charge. I also paid for these seats, I'm going to f***'n sit in all of them before the day is over".

Just stick to facts and stop quoting what you perceive as the truth. I bet going to dinner with you is fun, do you make the wait staff place your chair higher than the rest of your guest in a clear sign of dominance? Jeez we aren't in the 12th century anymore.

so feisty

 

[JB]

I believe that McNair sees Smith as his assistant in whom he is well pleased. I also believe that a picture can tell the story and the picture of The Texans draft day war room with McNair on the front row and everyone else sitting behind him (including O'Brien and Smith) tells a story and sends a message. Nowhere else do see this setup or arrangement in NFL draft war rooms. I agree with you in that the bar to McNairs Commitment to Excellence (product on the field) is set pretty low. Your description of McNair as an owner is well said and on the money.

Old folks like to sit close to the screen... Where he sits makes no difference about making the calls. Do you see him with a PC or phone in his hand?

 

[Texian]

Old folks like to sit close to the screen... Where he sits makes no difference about making the calls. Do you see him with a PC or phone in his hand?

PC and phones not required, he has his minions for all of that.

 

[76Texan]

Basically you analyzed every catch he had in college and declared every single one was a fluke (bubble screen, QB threw him open, CB's crutch broke). Lots of bashing for using pick 27 to pick a #2 receiver with a very low probability of becoming a #1. Your brillant analysis was to trade Hopkins for Aaron Dobson, Logan Ryan, Josh Boyce, and Michael Buchanan.

But you missed the posts when I answered the direct question whether I think Hopkins can be a number one receiver. I never ruled it out, as you said.

I did answer clearly that he needs to do certain things and he can be a number one.
Before he can do that, he's not.
Hopkins himself, had said several things to the same extent.

But the crucial point in this is that I never said that Hopkins can't be a number one receiver on a team.
I believe my words were that "he has a chance to be a number one - as in legitimate".

As good as Anquan Boldin is, I don't know if a lot of people would classify him as a true number one (even though he caught 101 passes for nearly 1,400 yards, with 8TDs as a rookie.)

One of the things I asked of Hopkín is to do the things that a guy like Jordan Matthews had shown he can do even in college already, and that is to be more physical, more aggressive.
Have you looked up the numbers from Matthews? He came into the league a year later, as a second round pick.

I had said I would take Matthews in the second instead of Hopkins in the first; and I would do that all day, even now.

The point I was making is how you value and expect of a certain draft position.
Mind you, Hopkins is sill not leaving any of the good CBs in the dirt; the fact that he doens't have top speed is true - and for that, I had also wanted him to learn the double move from AJ, and he also did that... though yet to be compared to AJ.

My no. 1 object is to find a franchise QB.
Can you blame me for that?

And if you want to do that, you need a good draft position at the right time.
If I don't have that, I'd rather that my GM try to trade away and accumulate as many future draft picks as possible.

 

[steelbtexan]

But you missed the posts when I answered the direct question whether I think Hopkins can be a number one receiver. I never ruled it out, as you said.

I did answer clearly that he needs to do certain things and he can be a number one.
Before he can do that, he's not.
Hopkins himself, had said several things to the same extent.

But the crucial point in this is that I never said that Hopkins can't be a number one receiver on a team.
I believe my words were that "he has a chance to be a number one - as in legitimate".

As good as Anquan Boldin is, I don't know if a lot of people would classify him as a true number one (even though he caught 101 passes for nearly 1,400 yards, with 8TDs as a rookie.)

One of the things I asked of Hopkín is to do the things that a guy like Jordan Matthews had shown he can do even in college already, and that is to be more physical, more aggressive.
Have you looked up the numbers from Matthews? He came into the league a year later, as a second round pick.

I had said I would take Matthews in the second instead of Hopkins in the first; and I would do that all day, even now.

The point I was making is how you value and expect of a certain draft position.
Mind you, Hopkins is sill not leaving any of the good CBs in the dirt; the fact that he doens't have top speed is true - and for that, I had also wanted him to learn the double move from AJ, and he also did that... though yet to be compared to AJ.

My no. 1 object is to find a franchise QB.
Can you blame me for that?

And if you want to do that, you need a good draft position at the right time.
If I don't have that, I'd rather that my GM try to trade away and accumulate as many future draft picks as possible.

This is why I'm glad you aren't the Texans GM.

Not that you would be worse than Rick,

 

[76Texan]

Actually 2-14 would have been status quo. "A hell of lot better" than 9-7 wouldn't be 10-6 or even 11-5. So you were expecting a new coach to take over a 2-14 team and get 12 to 14 wins the first year? When the previous regime had stuck him with D Hop, who (according to you) would never be a #1 receiver?

And I re-quote you here and call you a liar.
Because I had never, ever said that Hopkins would never ever has a chance to be a #1 receiver.

Or at least, you were putting words in my mouth.

 

[76Texan]

This is why I'm glad you aren't the Texans GM.

Not that you would be worse than Rick,

No comprendre.
Would you care to elaborate, steelb ?

 

[steelbtexan]

Taking Matthews over Nuk?

 

[76Texan]

Taking Matthews over Nuk?

Come on, steelb, read my post again.

Matthews in the second vs. Hopkins in the first.

That's a no-brainer to me.

You look at their measurables and their college tapes.
Hand size, arm length, speed, etc.
I take Matthews in the second and trade away my first round pick for the future any time.

 

[76Texan]

And Fred, I would also re-quote a post of mine that you quoted:

"Or you can trade them away for future picks that you can combine with your first next year to grab a better prospect.
(Like I had said before, there will be some very interesting prospects next year.)"

This is just what I had in mind.
With AJ still on board at the time, I would rather try to trade away for future picks.
Even if I don't have a chance for a franchise QB the next year, there will be good prospects at WR as well.

Hopkins isn't the only viable long-term option.
There are good to great prospects at WR in the pipeline.
Not so much with the QBs.
If you want a legitimate franchise QB, you have to make plan.

 

[Texian]

FWIW I had the Donte Moncrief going to the Texans in RD 3 of the 2014 draft.

 

[sandman]

Come on, steelb, read my post again.

Matthews in the second vs. Hopkins in the first.

That's a no-brainer to me.

You look at their measurables and their college tapes.
Hand size, arm length, speed, etc.
I take Matthews in the second and trade away my first round pick for the future any time.

Except they weren't in the same draft.

 

[JB]

Except they weren't in the same draft.

His position seems to be trade out of round 1 every year to stockpile picks for next year and hope to get lucky

 

[76Texan]

Except they weren't in the same draft.

You did not follow the whole trail closely.

 

[76Texan]

His position seems to be trade out of round 1 every year to stockpile picks for next year and hope to get lucky

Hope to get lucky?

Hahaha.

I had stated my position on a lot of QBs throughout the years since 2009 or so, looking for Schaub's replacement.

And I did say the class of Wilson, Keenum, and Cousins can be most affordable (pre-draft).

I even stated, again pre-draft, that I would take all 3 of them.
Because of the situation with Luck and RG III, this is the best chance for some good prospects even if you don't have high draft position.

 

[JB]

Hope to get lucky?

Hahaha.

I had stated my position on a lot of QBs throughout the years since 2009 or so, looking for Schaub's replacement.

And I did say the class of Wilson, Keenum, and Cousins can be most affordable (pre-draft).

I even stated, again pre-draft, that I would take all 3 of them.
Because of the situation with Luck and RG III, this is the best chance for some good prospects even if you don't have high draft position.

You were also talking that Smith should have traded the Hopkins pick to get a WR in the second the following year...

you also seem to be really high on Keenum, who has proven diddley squat in the NFL other than he knows how to run backwards to take a sack

 

[76Texan]

It's really not something too scientific.
It involves a lot of due dilligence.

I've been studying/watching a lot of high school football also.

Noboby knows everything.
You read reports and then you find tapes of those QBs and you follow their collegiate careers and read news about them.

That way, you have a better feel for them.

 

[76Texan]

You were also talking that Smith should have traded the Hopkins pick to get a WR in the second the following year...

you also seem to be really high on Keenum, who has proven diddley squat in the NFL other than he knows how to run backwards to take a sack

You got half the story each time.

Starting with 2014, O'Brien's first year, I stated that even though I love defense than most, and I believe that Clowney can be a beast next to Watt, I urge that they do a thorough medical study on him.
Then make the decision.
I said I have no qualm about trading away that top pick, even if the return is less than normal market value.

I believe in long range planning to build a competitive team.
You have to be a realist.

 

[JB]

 

[Texansballer74]

I believe that McNair sees Smith as his assistant in whom he is well pleased. I also believe that a picture can tell the story and the picture of The Texans draft day war room with McNair on the front row and everyone else sitting behind him (including O'Brien and Smith) tells a story and sends a message. Nowhere else do see this setup or arrangement in NFL draft war rooms. I agree with you in that the bar to McNairs Commitment to Excellence (product on the field) is set pretty low. Your description of McNair as an owner is well said and on the money.

Hahahaahhahah Now this^^^^ is what I call some quality H2O

 

[76Texan]

Goal posts can be moved, if necessary.

The main underlying principals have to remain constant.

 

[sandman]

You did not follow the whole trail closely.

Kind of hard to follow your trail of crumbs, Kemosabe. Your points are kinda all over the place.

 

[76Texan]

Kind of hard to follow your trail of crumbs, Kemosabe. Your points are kinda all over the place.

sorry, as the OP, I've got all kinds of grenade launchers aiming my way.

 

[Texansballer74]

Come on, steelb, read my post again.

Matthews in the second vs. Hopkins in the first.

That's a no-brainer to me.

You look at their measurables and their college tapes.
Hand size, arm length, speed, etc.
I take Matthews in the second and trade away my first round pick for the future any time.

Man are you not watching any of the Texans games?

This man damn near catches anything in his radius on any corner or safety out there and you're asking him to be more physical. And guess what even the HOF Jerry Rice wasn't not leaving any of the good CBs in the dirt and he most definitely wasn't a speedy receiver. But he got the job done. And that my friend is all that matters. Nuk doesn't need to be a speedy receiver.

Big timer this is not Madden, where you can build your own players. LOL

 

[76Texan]

My main point has always been, and I had restated it several time.

That I am tired of MEDIOCRITY.

I had typed that word in capital so many times already.
But people keep asking me.
So forgive me if it seems like I'm shouting.

 

[76Texan]

Man are you not watching any of the Texans games?

This man damn near catches anything in his radius on any corner or safety out there and you're asking him to be more physical. And guess what even the HOF Jerry Rice wasn't not leaving any of the good CBs in the dirt and he most definitely wasn't a speedy receiver. But he got the job done. And that my friend is all that matters. Nuk doesn't need to be a speedy receiver.

Big timer this is not Madden, where you can build your own players. LOL

You were not here (on this MB) in the year that the Texans drafted Hopkins.

 

[sandman]

sorry, as the OP, I've got all kinds of grenade launchers aiming my way.

Actually I think you are talking pure horsesh!t to stir the pot and keeps things interesting, but carry on my friend.

 

[76Texan]

Actually I think you are talking pure horsesh!t to stir the pot and keeps things interesting, but carry on my friend.

Either way, it's all good.

Got a lot of football talks out of the two threads.
Does it even matter that people disagree on this and that?
Well, actually, it does matter.

Because it's all about football.

 

[Texansballer74]

You were not here (on this MB) in the year that the Texans drafted Hopkins.

Turned out to be one helluva choice huh. Lol because that young man is one of the top receivers in the NFL.

 

[TxnsJuggernaut]

Come on man, that Denver roster was already set up to win it all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If John Elway had kept John Fox and his coaching staff on that team it still would have won the Super Bowl.

Even if Peyton Manning had been healthy, Gary Kubiaks system did not favor him. Brock himself said he liked the Broncos offense better under the previous coaching staff.

 

[76Texan]

Turned out to be one helluva choice huh. Lol because that young man is one of the top receivers in the NFL.

Yes, but did you ever stop and think that if we traded the pick for Hopkins, we could get Matthews and all the extras?

But true, it's best that Hopkins has the local support as long as he's a Texan.

You guys have ought to think that I'm always thinking along the line of a GM.
How to build a competitive team for the long run.

 

[Texecutioner]

My main point has always been, and I had restated it several time.

That I am tired of MEDIOCRITY.

I had typed that word in capital so many times already.
But people keep asking me.
So forgive me if it seems like I'm shouting.

Yeah, but it does seem like you created this really just to stir the pot for conversation which can be annoying and considered trolling.

I say that because you keep talking about mediocrity and that mainly being the QB position, but you have neglected to go over any other realistic scenarios that the Texans could have completed instead of the OZ situation. If you have them then I'm all ears, but keep it realistic and not some crazy imaginative thing that we all know wasn't doable. And keep it in "this off season." Don't go back two or three years and say well they should have drafted this guy in hind sight. You tell us what was a way better scenario for the Texans offense in this off season. Otherwise, I don't really see what your intent is other than to get a bunch of TT members stirred up.

You've asked for intelligent and civil dialogue, well that goes both ways. If you come off as suspect where your intent doesn't seem genuine then you can't really be surprised to catch some of the backlash you have in these threads. I'm all ears.

 

[Texecutioner]

My main point has always been, and I had restated it several time.

That I am tired of MEDIOCRITY.

I had typed that word in capital so many times already.
But people keep asking me.
So forgive me if it seems like I'm shouting.

Yeah, but it does seem like you created this really just to stir the pot for conversation which can be annoying and considered trolling.

I say that because you keep talking about mediocrity and that mainly being the QB position, but you have neglected to go over any other realistic scenarios that the Texans could have completed instead of the OZ situation. If you have them then I'm all ears, but keep it realistic and not some crazy imaginative thing that we all know wasn't doable. And keep it in "this off season." Don't go back two or three years and say well they should have drafted this guy in hind sight. You tell us what was a way better scenario for the Texans offense in this off season. Otherwise, I don't really see what your intent is other than to get a bunch of TT members stirred up.

You've asked for intelligent and civil dialogue, well that goes both ways. If you come off as suspect where your intent doesn't seem genuine then you can't really be surprised to catch some of the backlash you have in these threads. I'm all ears.

 

[76Texan]

Turned out to be one helluva choice huh. Lol because that young man is one of the top receivers in the NFL.

Yes, but did you ever stop and think that if we traded the pick for Hopkins, we could get Matthews and all the extras?

But true, it's best that Hopkins has the local support as long as he's a Texan.

You guys have ought to think that I'm always thinking along the line of a GM.
How to build a competitive team for the long run.

Yeah, but it does seem like you created this really just to stir the pot for conversation which can be annoying and considered trolling.

I say that because you keep talking about mediocrity and that mainly being the QB position, but you have neglected to go over any other realistic scenarios that the Texans could have completed instead of the OZ situation. If you have them then I'm all ears, but keep it realistic and not some crazy imaginative thing that we all know wasn't doable. And keep it in "this off season." Don't go back two or three years and say well they should have drafted this guy in hind sight. You tell us what was a way better scenario for the Texans offense in this off season. Otherwise, I don't really see what your intent is other than to get a bunch of TT members stirred up.

You've asked for intelligent and civil dialogue, well that goes both ways. If you come off as suspect where your intent doesn't seem genuine then you can't really be surprised to catch some of the backlash you have in these threads. I'm all ears.

The backlashes are all good, and I'm well aware of them before I started the threads.

Let's get to the point.

There are others, not just you, Tex, who wants to ask me about other option regarding this year, and this year alone.

To me, that is not fair, if not outrageous.

Considering for example, your own thinking that this offense needs some time to gel.
What does that mean?
I'll let you answer that first.

 

[JB]

well if we're talking hindsight... we never should have drafted D. Carr or Bennie Jopru of countless others. We could have traded for...

 

[76Texan]

Tex,

You want me to give you a solution for this year, yet you said Osweiler needs time to gel with his teammates.

What is it?

 

[Double Barrel]

when most of your wins come against the worst division in the NFL
you don't build credibility as an elite coach. (pushing around
slappies like the Jags and the Titans isn't worthy of praise --
everyone else seems to have no problems doing it either..)

Our team is loaded with professionals -- they had better not
"quit on their coach". They're paid to play W or L.

BoB takes a step back this year (after the ridiculous musical chairs
game he has played at QB) he deserves to be let go.

Belichick has a HoF career based on owning one of the crappiest divisions in football. Teams play the opponents on their schedule. This is not NCAA where opinion of opponents means something in the final results.

While I certainly agree with your idealism that they are professionals and should not quit, 2-14 in 2013 undermines the narrative. It happens. Sometimes a team devolves into just a collection of players. It's on the head coach to hold it together. In 2013 Kubiak failed in that regard and lost his job because of it. One of the most patient and understanding owners in the NFL could not continue on with it.

Bizarre thing is that you last sentences comes off as a desire on your part. Strange to see fans of a team actively rooting against a team because they dislike the coach.

 

[TxnsJuggernaut]

This would be true except he went out and got Hoyer himself. Now I'm no owner, but if I was I would have fired him on the spot for that.

I get quarterbacks are only remembered for thier last performance and Brian Hoyers last performance was a disaster. However to be fair he played solid before being concussed. Brian was a good guy and if he sucked as bad as some people make it out he did, our Texans would not have made the playoffs. Yes others contributed at QB to reaching that goal but Brian won games as the starting quarterback. Take away even one game he won and make it a loss and we don't even have a bad playoff performance by Brian Hoyer to hate him for.

Bill O'Brien has done above and beyond what a lot of other coaches could have done with our team.

We should be upset that Texans defense in the playoff game completely came unraveld as soon as JJ Watt came off the field worn down from having to carry it most of the season.

JJ knew the team stood no chance without him so he darn near killed himself to cover for his teams inadequacies.

Lets hope this season the defense is able to prove that it can play better than the last quarter in a half of that playoff game last season without JJ or it won't matter who plays quarterback for our team this season.

Lets also hope our depleeted offensive line is up to the task of being better than it appears they will be.

In the end, I am sure if some of you have your way then Bill will end up coaching another team to the promised land. I have complete faith in our head coach.

 

[TxnsJuggernaut]

Yes, but did you ever stop and think that if we traded the pick for Hopkins, we could get Matthews and all the extras?

But true, it's best that Hopkins has the local support as long as he's a Texan.

You guys have ought to think that I'm always thinking along the line of a GM.
How to build a competitive team for the long run.

If Rick Smith gets axed perhaps you should try to get his job. ...lol

 

[Texecutioner]

Yes, but did you ever stop and think that if we traded the pick for Hopkins, we could get Matthews and all the extras?

But true, it's best that Hopkins has the local support as long as he's a Texan.

You guys have ought to think that I'm always thinking along the line of a GM.
How to build a competitive team for the long run.

The backlashes are all good, and I'm well aware of them before I started the threads.

Let's get to the point.

There are others, not just you, Tex, who wants to ask me about other option regarding this year, and this year alone.

To me, that is not fair, if not outrageous.

Considering for example, your own thinking that this offense needs some time to gel.
What does that mean?
I'll let you answer that first.

This is not responsive. I asked you a direct question a few times now, and you are not answering it. I don't care to waste my time going back several off seasons now to crap all over Rick Smith's mistakes. Everyone in here knows I hate the man as far as being a GM. He is still here though, and as a fan I just have to deal with that just like you. Whats done is done in those other off seasons and there is no point in going over that. This off season just happened though, and the fact that you refuse to come up with any other plan that the Texans could have tried to execute instead of Brock indicates to me that you can't come up with one, which makes your intent still confusing and to where I'll just assume you're stirring the pot to kill time or something.