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My take on the Carr / Young / Bush Debate

I would honestly say who are we to decide or specualte carr is not a leader? who is in the locker room before or after a game? Bein in dallas i cant hear all the news about the texans but Carr does not act like he has lost his teammates... Sure he is not over there in their faces but hes trying to figure out what he did wrong... Hes just in a bad situation here,we have never had a great season here, how is he supposed to act like a winner if hes never been one? I think he does rather well I think Bradford let him down many times.. I think having no TE to throw to because they have to stay in and help block... I think hes doin all he can in an offense that has never really been good.. look at Carolinas early years their offense was not good their defense was good because a lot of old pro bowlers who knew the defense played there. We need a change we have the tools here already to be successful we just need to add some more founation on offense, and more coverage and tackling in the defense...
 
outofhnd said:
I would honestly say who are we to decide or specualte carr is not a leader? who is in the locker room before or after a game? Bein in dallas i cant hear all the news about the texans but Carr does not act like he has lost his teammates... Sure he is not over there in their faces but hes trying to figure out what he did wrong... Hes just in a bad situation here,we have never had a great season here, how is he supposed to act like a winner if hes never been one? I think he does rather well I think Bradford let him down many times.. I think having no TE to throw to because they have to stay in and help block... I think hes doin all he can in an offense that has never really been good.. look at Carolinas early years their offense was not good their defense was good because a lot of old pro bowlers who knew the defense played there. We need a change we have the tools here already to be successful we just need to add some more founation on offense, and more coverage and tackling in the defense...
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Enough said...........:ok:
 
I dont understand why so many people are giving up on Carr... they were 7-9 last season and everyone loved Carr now 2-14 and its lose to get Bush... oh wow nvm Bush get Young YOUNG YOUNG!!!!!!

ok... Young is cool if u want to have 3 more losing seasons

but Bush with DD and AJ and a TE from the draft and some O-linemen... now thats a winning team.

Thunder = DD
Supa Fast Blazing Light RB= Reggie Bush

They will both balance out each others work-load.

Our real issue still is can our defense stop anybody?

1st post :yahoo:
 
NO OUR DEFENSE CANNOT STOP ANYBODY BECAUSE.............

All of you want to keep drafting premiere, no-miss QB/RB/WR each draft season instead of drafting a premiere no-miss o lineman who can allow ANY QB to get the ball into the hands of our premiere, no-miss WR/RB!!!!!!!!!

(i am going friggin insane. anybody else out there who would like to lend a hand would be appreciated right now......)
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
That's "assuming" someone else doesn't snatch the top o line prospects before we get to them.

Teams like Patriots, Steelers, and others who avoid the Detroit Lions and Cleveland Browns draft philosophy (like yours, by the way) that says "Go get the most-hyped QB/WR/RB available! Nobody can stop you if you do!"

The ugly pick (an o lineman, for example) is just never as fun as the sexy pick who will be the franchise's savior, eh? :bomb:
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That argument makes no sense what so ever...We aren't loaded with talent like the patriots and the colts... If you are giving that argument then we should have never taken A.J or D.Rob or CARR...We should have just been pickin o-line this whole time
 
Honestly, "yes" we should have picked an o line at the beginning of this team's existence.

I guess you'd build a house by hanging decorations and choosing furniture before laying a proper foundation first?
 
No but I'd design a house thats already been built by getting what ever I saw fit at the time to make my vision come true...
 
I have never loved Carr. He just never excited me. Not even sexually, lol.

I won't be upset if we keep him- he just isn't someone to write home about. VY and RB are more exciting number 1 propects in 2006 than DC was in 2002 - to me anyway.

And having VY as a QB does not force the Texans to start over. DC came in with a bunch of other newbie offensive players. Those players have had time to mature and improve.
 
And another thing.....

How many free agent o linemen do you see each year? Not many. They are a rare commodity and teams HOLD ONTO THEM.

Conversely, you see tons of RB and WR talent hitting the free agency wire each year because they are a dime a dozen.
 
How do you know it's not because teams don't generally go after o-line, skill players have more leverage because they are what teams search for in order to get them over the hill...not o-line...like T.O in Philly...You don't hear people making big news over o-line signings because no one cares...
 
Look, let's agree to disagree.

You want to tear this mother down and start all over...keeping only AJ and Dunta (which I partially agree with, but yet is completely impossible. This isn't Madden 06 where you just select what you want and go with it).

I think we have the nucleus of a good team, and some dead weight needs to be dropped along with some better draft philosophy than what we've had in the past.

No need to drop the bomb on this team and start another four-year rebuilding phase. I'll be done if that's the case.
 
The Patriots are an anomaly. I've never seen a team with so few "stars", yet everyone knows their role and are willing to do whatever it takes to win games even if it means playing a position that they never play.
 
Honestly I just like to argue...i was a big D'brick fan at first, but my opinion changed after watching him and winston play...
 
tulexan said:
The Patriots are an anomaly. I've never seen a team with so few "stars", yet everyone knows their role and are willing to do whatever it takes to win games even if it means playing a position that they never play.
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They have plenty of stars, they are just are not paid like stars. Great front office, staff and team chemistry. Top down and down top.
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
"If any of this is true, then I definitely want hime gone. Don't like what the coach is doing, when it's your time in the huddle, call the play you want..... kinda like what peyton does. It isn't that hard to do, especially if you have a number of players with the same attitude. You want the coach out of there, you can do like Kobe did, and get you an a new coach.

I honestly don't think our team sucked, because the guys gave up on their coach. That''s not what a leader should do, lay down like that..." -- thunderkyss

--------------------

You'd never make it in the military with this mindset. You'd never make it in a real jobplace environment with this mindset. You don't cut someone's throat to get your own way.

Kobe? You're touting Kobe as a model of excellent leadership? Pardon me for a sec, but that guy is FAILING badly. He's pretty much the joke of the league right now. No way is this a guy who should be held up on a pedestal for even his on-court theatrics, let alone his personal life. Yeah, he's a champion. LOL.

Peyton is a company man. Carr is a company man. Two different companies, ran by two different people. One boss allows the QB to improvise. Another coach didn't allow ONE BIT of improvisation until Dan Reeves stepped onto the scene. Think that was a mere coincidence? Not.

Heck, call me what you want or act like I'm a fool all you want...but I respect the heck out of Carr and all the other players for that matter for NOT throwing capers under the bus like they do in Oakland and Detroit.

Yeah, I'll stand on that: Carr is a respectable leader. And I doubt he loses sleep over what Thunderkyss says about him.
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Funny, I did fine in the military, and I'm doing fine now in corporate America. Anyway, I know David Carr isn't worried about what I say. Once again, I Like Carr, but he isn't what we need at QB. It's his but getting pounded. If that's not enough for a guy to want to grab the reigns............

Now about Kobe....... Things aren't looking to good for him. He's still a champion though. Leaders........... they come in all shapes and sizes. Kobe was able to turn the right people against a man who has one more NBA Championship rings than.... well, you know. And let's not forget what he did to the best player in the NBA.

Am I a Kobe fan?? No...... Do I make a habit of defending Kobe?? No.... Do I think he Lead a lot of people into some stupid decisions Yes.

I really didn't think too much about getting the #1 pick. I figured we'd see what Casserly was made of for sure. IF he picked up Reggie Bush, then he doesn't deserve his position, unless of course he aquired Bush to parlay him into a lot of other picks and players. If he passed on Bush alltoghether, then he just doesn't deserve to breath. I don't think Cassely has got the balls to get Bush and trade him right away, or to trade down... Because it's going to look like the wrong move, until your picks start to pay off, and they may never. But you've got to be strong enough to take the chance.

I don't think Bush can help us in 2006. I don't. Getting a first round Offensive line man isn't going to help us in 2006. Two first round offensive linemen........ maybe, but not gaurunteed. I think a Vince Young will, fill your stadium, and you'll have 11 people walking on that field everyweek, thinking they might win.
 
"...like T.O in Philly...You don't hear people making big news over o-line signings because no one cares..."

------

Ummm...you pretty much made my point.

T.O. in Philly did not (say it with me) DID NOT get them over the hump. I don't see the Lombardi Trophy sitting in Philly, do you?

I see it sitting up in the very northeast of the USA where a team has drafted a 16th round QB in Tom Brady (not Akili Smith (hype) and not Ryan Leaf (hype)) and who has been very very smart to pick what it needs and not what the hype machine says it needs.

And the part about "nobody caring" about o line signings, go talk to Steelers fans. Go talk to Pats fans. They get very excited when you talk o line with them. They know that there's more to football than the speed guys who get the highlight reels each Sunday night.

By your philosophy...we'll be fielding 11 WRs even at the o line spot.
 
And the stadium will be empty again when after a few games VY is on injured reserve because this ain't college level playing field anymore. When he is yelling at our patch-work line and they look at him like he's crazy ("Yelling at me? Oh, OK. Let's see you take it all on your shoulders big fella...." and then he lets a LB get through and hammer VY. Face it, this is for money...not for scholarships).

There is NO disputing the pure "fact" that every NFL QB coming right into the NFL out of college, no matter how good, will tell you and tell the world that the first is brutal because the game is so FAST. It's a whole new level.

And if you think VY is so far superior that he is above the other 100 NFL QBs who have come and gone and who all say that it ain't the same as college, then you need to sell ocean-front property in Arizona.

I like your enthusiasm for VY. And he will have his chance(s). But I just cannot let go of reality and dream about VY this way. One foot in optimism and one foot squarely on the ground in reality.
 
Carr not being a leader is because hes not a jerk and wont walk up to his player and cuss them out. Hes going to be a really nice guy to them and say Lets keep going guys...play hard.
 
Well we thought we had Boselli at that point..

For the people who are arguing my dynamic remarks none of them were tabbed as dynamic players at the college level and the ones that were have been marginal performers...

In College Ladanian was not considered Dynamic... He was tabbed NFL Superstar and great player.. TO wasnt tabbed DYNAMIC in college. He was tabbed as great athlete who could be a good WR, Randy Moss was not DYNAMIC he was a reciever with speed and remarkable hands...

They became DYNAMIC after they redefined their positions with their abilities... LT is great but Dave meggett was just as good a passer and could throw it Long...

since I live in Dallas I would remember if LT was deemed Dynamic in TCU... I would just hate to see us draft a plyer #1 overall we dont really need, just to watch him bust like 1 long run and end up with another 5 wins or less season because we didnt bring talent in where we needed it..
 
:penalty: T.O did get them over the hump....T.O had attitude issues..It was never a question about his ability and what he brought to the team...I didn't read the rest of your post...just that part...I'm out...Rack him...lol:pigfly:
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
He's earned his spot for now just as every other sorry person on the team...simply because there is no one better...DD hasn't earned anything with speculation of Bush coming aboard...If there is speculation that someone else may come in and take your spot or give you a run for it...IMO that spot isn't sewed up....no one would dare think of replacing AJ or D-Rob...Everyone else is expendable and as far as half our offense coming through DD ...Have you ever heard the phrase "in the land of the blind the one eyed running back is king"
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The only advantage AJ has over Dom, is that there are two WR spots available. If Andre were to get hurt, it is unlikely that there will be two recievers who can play better than he can. So when he gets healthy, he'll have a starting spot. If DD gets hurt, it would be possible for Reggie to win the spot. If we were a one WR team, then it'd be the same for Andre. Bush would not begin the season as our starter....... it don't matter what happens in Training camp.
 
Tulip said:
I have never loved Carr. He just never excited me. Not even sexually, lol.

I won't be upset if we keep him- he just isn't someone to write home about. VY and RB are more exciting number 1 propects in 2006 than DC was in 2002 - to me anyway.

And having VY as a QB does not force the Texans to start over. DC came in with a bunch of other newbie offensive players. Those players have had time to mature and improve.
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But they haven't, and that's part of the problem. But that's OK, I believe Vince would be a star behind even them.
 
I don't care about VY... I am just pointing out ridiculous arguments...So the O-lineman coming out will be up to speed??? is that what you are saying? they are garunteed not to bust??? Look you had a better argument when you said we don't need him...stick to that because all the other arguments trying to take away froom his talent and acting like he is the only college player coming out that is going to have to ADJUST IS ASANINE....
 
DeAngelo Hall shut down TO way before the attitude got the best of TO. He's not the whole team. NO stud skill player is.

David Boston was a guy who was supposed to get San Diego over the hump. He didn't. He went to Dolphins. Didn't do it there, either.

Ron Dayne in NY? Nope.

Ryan Leaf in S.D.? Nope.

Akili Smith in Cincy? Nope.

The list goes on. Sure-things are never as sure as the hype machine makes them out to be.

I actually commend Casserly on not going with the hyped up Charles Rogers. He got dogged for taking this mild-mannered introvert named Andre Johnson when he "should have" drafted the brash and flashy Charles Rogers, a guy with so much star quality you have to wear sunglasses when he plays.

LOL.
 
thunderkyss said:
The only advantage AJ has over Dom, is that there are two WR spots available. If Andre were to get hurt, it is unlikely that there will be two recievers who can play better than he can. So when he gets healthy, he'll have a starting spot. If DD gets hurt, it would be possible for Reggie to win the spot. If we were a one WR team, then it'd be the same for Andre. Bush would not begin the season as our starter....... it don't matter what happens in Training camp.
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o.k whats your point...and ther are 2 tackles, two gaurds and a partridge and a pear tree.... DD is expendable...people don't panic when he's out...we'd panic in clutch time if d-rob weren't there or AJ werent there...for you to put him on their levels is ridicolous
 
outofhnd said:
No my philosophy is pick the player who people say "Has great fundamentals" or Consistent performer who will have a long career in the NFL,

Brett Favre..
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Brett Favre?? Great fundamentals?? You do know he was drafted at Quarterback right??
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
DeAngelo Hall shut down TO way before the attitude got the best of TO. He's not the whole team. NO stud skill player is.

David Boston was a guy who was supposed to get San Diego over the hump. He didn't. He went to Dolphins. Didn't do it there, either.

Ron Dayne in NY? Nope.

Ryan Leaf in S.D.? Nope.

Akili Smith in Cincy? Nope.

The list goes on. Sure-things are never as sure as the hype machine makes them out to be.

I actually commend Casserly on not going with the hyped up Charles Rogers. He got dogged for taking this mild-mannered introvert named Andre Johnson when he "should have" drafted the brash and flashy Charles Rogers, a guy with so much star quality you have to wear sunglasses when he plays.

LOL.
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When has an offensive lineman rookie gotten someone over the hump???
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
I actually commend Casserly on not going with the hyped up Charles Rogers. He got dogged for taking this mild-mannered introvert named Andre Johnson when he "should have" drafted the brash and flashy Charles Rogers, a guy with so much star quality you have to wear sunglasses when he plays.

LOL.
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I'm not sure the Lions would have allowed Casserly to pick Charles Rogers. They might have called "foul" if Tagliabue had announced, "and with the third pick in the draft, the Houston Texans select Charles Rogers, wide receiver from Michigan State."

"Um...excuse me Mr. Commissioner, we already picked him 15 minutes ago."
 
Man I cant even post in here without having to go back and read replies for 10 minutes...

My opinion plain and simple is I hope we deal out of the #1 Overall We need depth and blocking on offense, we need pass rush and penetration on defense.. Add some quality players that can do those fundamental things and improve the team..
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
When has an offensive lineman rookie gotten someone over the hump???
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Good question. A LT selection for the Texans would be playing RT his rookie season, and a non-LT would probably be riding the bench.
 
Yes, he was...but the hype was so intense...you'd think Casserly would have traded up to grab Rogers.

JUST LIKE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO TRADE UP TO GET SEAN TAYLOR.

Remember that whole debate on this board before the draft?

Now THAT was a wildfire..........
 
And the fact that you're trying to "pick apart" and parse things out of my comments instead of rebutting them with sound opinions of your own is further evidence that you're just playing the hype game.

Hype it up, everybody!

Bush is a sure thing!

Young is a sure thing!

Well, we can only get one of them. Guess we'll flip a coin and be done with it....
 
Well with us having the top pick... Like I think GPS said earlier no matter what we do it will be the wrong thing to do... Just like it was the wrong thing to do for Philly to take McNabb over Ricky Williams.. Yea that really put that franchise in the toilet... And the Saints looked like the big Winners getting Ricky Williams who isnt on their team anymore and they havent been to the playoffs is how many years? You just never know you just have to hope and pray that whatever houston did they got what they wanted out of the draft...
 
outofhnd said:
Well with us having the top pick... Like I think GPS said earlier no matter what we do it will be the wrong thing to do... Just like it was the wrong thing to do for Philly to take McNabb over Ricky Williams.. Yea that really put that franchise in the toilet... And the Saints looked like the big Winners getting Ricky Williams who isnt on their team anymore and they havent been to the playoffs is how many years? You just never know you just have to hope and pray that whatever houston did they got what they wanted out of the draft...
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I believe it was 3 years ago when the saints were in the playoffs, and last year they were 1 win away.


when was the last time a houston football team was in the playoffs?
 
vs how many years did philly go to the playoffs after mcnabb? like 4 straight?

And was Ricky Williams on that team 3 years ago? Nope..

My point is Ricky was supposed to be the salvation for the saints and it never happened.. Donovan who people couldnt believe was picked over ricky has been a rock in philly leading them to the playoffs and even to a superbowl appearance.. and has the longest contract in NFL history when he signed a 8 year deal... or was it 12 i cant recall now..
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
And the stadium will be empty again when after a few games VY is on injured reserve because this ain't college level playing field anymore. When he is yelling at our patch-work line and they look at him like he's crazy ("Yelling at me? Oh, OK. Let's see you take it all on your shoulders big fella...." and then he lets a LB get through and hammer VY. Face it, this is for money...not for scholarships).

There is NO disputing the pure "fact" that every NFL QB coming right into the NFL out of college, no matter how good, will tell you and tell the world that the first is brutal because the game is so FAST. It's a whole new level.

And if you think VY is so far superior that he is above the other 100 NFL QBs who have come and gone and who all say that it ain't the same as college, then you need to sell ocean-front property in Arizona.

I like your enthusiasm for VY. And he will have his chance(s). But I just cannot let go of reality and dream about VY this way. One foot in optimism and one foot squarely on the ground in reality.
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I see your point. And before Wendsday night, I'd be with you. I totally agree the most important position in Football, is the line. On both sides of the ball. But that was because before Wednesday night, I though Vince would come back for his senior year. Now, after his little "speech" there is no doubt he'll come out, just to deprive Reggie of being the No. 1 pick. I can't pass on Young. You're totally wrong for comparing Vince to Vick. This guy throws better than Vick, and Runs better than both Culpepper and McNabb. So we haven't seen anything like that yet.

But with 4 or five linemen per team... your chances of getting a good probowl lineman later in the draft, is much greater than your chance of getting a wide reciever, a running back, a corner, or a tightend.

Either way you look at it, it'll be three years, before we can think about a superbowl. But we can have a winning season next year with Vince.
 
outofhnd said:
vs how many years did philly go to the playoffs after mcnabb? like 4 straight?

And was Ricky Williams on that team 3 years ago? Nope..

My point is Ricky was supposed to be the salvation for the saints and it never happened.. Donovan who people couldnt believe was picked over ricky has been a rock in philly leading them to the playoffs and even to a superbowl appearance.. and has the longest contract in NFL history when he signed a 8 year deal... or was it 12 i cant recall now..
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ok...??? and Tom brady came off the bench and led his team to a superbowl win...******* happens
 
It happens because they knew what they were doing...

That is why certain teams seem to make the playoffs every year and other teams have like 1 good year then disappear again for 5 years..

Look at the Lions, Look at the Cardinals... those are some franchises I hope we dont follow suit with.. But remember the Browns are the only team that entered the league in the same fashion that we did... So just look where the Browns are now and thats probably where we will be..Scary thought, but its the truth... We have a new Offense and Defense coming.. Players are gonna have to learn it...

Everyone knows No 1 pick is gonna revive any team.. especially now in the modern NFL where Free agents are mercenaries signed for outrageous amounts of money then dont come through.. All I am saying is where I would like our focus to be this offseason and hopefully watching a much improved product on the field for 2006...

All we can do is Speculate, Commend and Complain about our choices...
 
Kaiser Toro said:
Speculation? Yes. Intuition? Yes. DC has not shown anything tangibly or intangibly that could possibly deem as a leader.
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While I don't think his on-field leadership is very good, I think we can admit that his getting up and competing after getting hit time and time again is intabgible evidence of leadership. He could easily take a few plays off to recover, and no one would blame him.
 
Wow this is some funny stuff Carr a Leader Carr A playmaker it a little early for your april fool jokes. are you still watching his fresno state games Carr has not showed any leadership since fresno state! playmaker may be if you consider running out of bounds behind the line of scrimage or not throwing a hail mary and taking another sack for the sake of QB rating.
 
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