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My take on the Carr / Young / Bush Debate
- Thread starter Dime
- Start date
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Tulip said:
Diamonds have flaws too.
New_Texans
Rookie
I just feel like theres so much more we can do if we have Bush than if we have Vince. Instead of having to wait another 2 or 3 drafts to be ready to make a winning season happen.
Napa Auto Parts
Veteran
Both are equally as bad but it just makes it worst when a QB Wont throw the ball for statiscall reason when a game is in hand.New_Texans said:
Tulip
Veteran
Napa Auto Parts said:Both are equally as bad but it just makes it worst when a QB won throw the ball for statiscall reason when a game is in hand.
That's a really interesting point. I think Capers taught Carr to fear the interception. Maybe that can be coached out of him, and maybe it can't. I don't know.
Napa Auto Parts
Veteran
personally i think Carr is a mental set of mind that he will never get out of just look back at this season and see how awfull he looked and times the bad outnumber the good thats for sure.
tulexan said:
Big Ben is a good recent example that system, coaching, and surrounding talent have major impacts on performance. Pittsburgh was built in such a way that a young QB had a good chance at success when thrust into the starting line-up.
There is a high likelihood that if Rothleisberger and Carr magically switched careers (Ben drafted by us 4 years ago, Dave to Pittsburgh), we'd be calling for Big Ben's head now and pointing to Carr as an example of what a good QB from a young school should be doing.
Vinny said:
But that's part of my point. I think Ben's good habits my have deteriorated in "Carr-like proportions" if he had to put up with the Texans for the past four years. Almost everyone else on our team has regressed.
Leaving Carr and the Texans out of it, wouldn't you agree that Ben walked into the perfect situation for a rookie QB at Pittsburgh? Good protection, great running game, etc?
Dime said:
You make some valid points. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but I do think there's more to the decision that hasn't been factored in. Domanick Davis has been the LONE bright spot of our entire offense...consistently...numbers and everything. We might not need an RB as much as a QB. Whether we like it or not, DD has been very good for us...and Bush would be adding to our best skill position (performance-wise).
Carr may or may not have what it takes...he's a risk at this point, though maybe through no fault of his own. Vince Young is a stud, pure and simple. I think he's not a risk. He's 6'4", big, and fast...AND can throw. I think he's a real QB that just happens to have freakish athletic ability.
caspian said:
I see your point about Young, but if he doesnt have a Online worth a ****, he will end up hurt with us having a person with huge money sitting hurt. Our priority needs to be the Online. Oline folks.. NOTHING assists DD, Carr, Johnson, Mathis more then a Online. If who ever the QB or RB is, Nothing helps more then a Oline.
Bongo59
Waterboy
http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/7015/vincetitans1cp.jpg
We'll just get used to this picture...................
We'll just get used to this picture...................
gpshafer_1976 said:
I'd like to know in what game did D'Angelo hall shut down T.O.?? In the game they played, I think Terrell had 8 or 9 catches, for 112 yards. That's the kind of wide reciever I want. When Corners Brag because they've held your WR to 112 yards, you know you got a player.
Don't worry, I'll take care of that attitude.
Dime said:
Well, not exactly.
With Vince, yeah, he'll get sacked, but I'm willing to speculate he'd have only taken half the sacks Carr did. 25% of those should've been sacks, would be busted plays, the other 25% would make the Vince Young Rookie Season Highlight reel.
To read that Carr was second only to Vick in QB rushing yards, is unreal. That's a deceptive stat for sure. What's the difference in Yardage between Carr and Vick....... running. How many of those games did Vick Start, how many did Carr start??
Vince will add a dimension to the game, & that will help the passing game. If we get Bush, we'd still be hurting at O-Line. I don't think Bush is going to help much in pass blocking situations, especially not if you motion him out to WR.
I like Carr, but I really want Vick. The Fact that he's from Houston, and played at Texas only helps me believe that it will happen. And I'll let you guys know right now, 3 years from now, I expect a young'n by the name of Jamall Charles to come into the NFL. I expect he'll have been a Heisman Trophy contender somewhere in that 3 years. Even though I think DD is a good back now, and we don't need a running back, with Wells and Morency in the backfield.... I'll want the Texans to pick him up, if they have the opportunity.
GP
Go Texans!
Replay the game and watch TO's facial expression as he's racing to the end zone late in the game when Philly needed a TD (camera man in end zone as TO is coming into the end zone on a deep route) and you will see a very angry TO because the coverage was too good for McNabb to get the ball to him. That was the story of the day: TO got his yards, but it was never at a clutch time when they needed it, such as TO's ability to get deep and hurt teams with the quick score.
Afterwards, the commentators on ESPN did practically a five-minute segment on how well DeAngelo covered TO and limited him to zilch. Yeah, getting yards and ZERO touchdowns was a career day for TO
Last time I checked, TO makes minced meat out of DBs...and that was a day that DeAngelo Hall shut it down. You're saying you'd take TO? If I were a QB on a team, I'd threaten to demand a trade if I was told TO was coming to my team. All he does is DESTROY teams. Period. He's a train wreck waiting to happen, and the cargo is toxic waste. He can change, but I wouldn't risk my team on trying to be the team that changes him.
Afterwards, the commentators on ESPN did practically a five-minute segment on how well DeAngelo covered TO and limited him to zilch. Yeah, getting yards and ZERO touchdowns was a career day for TO
Last time I checked, TO makes minced meat out of DBs...and that was a day that DeAngelo Hall shut it down. You're saying you'd take TO? If I were a QB on a team, I'd threaten to demand a trade if I was told TO was coming to my team. All he does is DESTROY teams. Period. He's a train wreck waiting to happen, and the cargo is toxic waste. He can change, but I wouldn't risk my team on trying to be the team that changes him.
gpshafer_1976 said:Afterwards, the commentators on ESPN did practically a five-minute segment on how well DeAngelo covered TO and limited him to zilch. Yeah, getting yards and ZERO touchdowns was a career day for TO
That's just the media bias against a man willing to speak his mind. IMHO, T.O. was/is right. The problem with that team, is the same guy who took them to the NFC championship Game 4 years straight. The same guy blowing chunks @ the SuperBowl. IMHO, that same media that got Rush Limbaugh fired for telling the truth, speaking his mind, is just trying to keep another man down.
Terrell will be fine, if you are trying to win. I mean doing the things that make sense to win. Get your Quarterback in the Gym an extra day or two. Make him run a few extra miles, make him watch more tape, and turn in a written report. No more commercials, and keep is Mom out of the locker Room.
Jerry Garcia, same thing. That football team was doing the wrong things, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons. Looked like Terrell was the only one in the SF organization who wanted to win the last two years he was there.
If You put T.O. on a team with a 4 year veteran, that you are still teaching the game to, then you're going to have problems.
EDIT: Forgot to say........ if D'Angelo Hall shut down T.O., then we've got three ProBowl Corners on our team. He got beat for 112yards. Stop listening to those guys on T.V. he didn't get in the endzone, but that's a long way of shut out.
tulexan
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Do you want Vick or do you want Vince? What is so deceptive about David Carr being #2 in rushing yards for QB's? Vick has 597 yards, Car has 308 yards, and Aaron Brooks has 281 yards. He has less than Vick, but more than Brooks. That means he is #2.
Who said that after we draft Bush we will ignore the OL? I believe that a lot of people think that we can improve the OL in the second and third rounds.
And now you want Jamaal Charles too when he comes out? Do you also want Michael Huff, Cedric Griffin, Rod Wright, David Thomas, and Jonathan Scott too? Maybe we should change our colors to burnt orange and white and change our name to the Longhorns instead of the Texans.
Nighthawk
Rookie
titan hater said:
You may not have been, however. No, but seriously . . . Carr was pretty good in his last year of college, whereas VY was remarkable in 3 years of college. Now Carr has had 4 yrs of NFL to hone his skills and . . . oh! He's gotten a lot worse than he was when playing against Walgreens College of Pharmacy.
GP
Go Texans!
"...and keep is Mom out of the locker Room.
..." -- thunderkyss
I was thinking the same thing.
That's not really HELPING your image, Donovan. I mean, that's the absolute WORST bit of promotional gimmick I have ever seen. What guy sees that commercial and thinks they want mommy chasing them down and forcing soup down their throat? Lame-o. I really ecpected his mom to come running onto the field during the super bowl to hold a throw-up bowl at his ankles for him when he was puking at the end of the game...and maybe she grabs him some 7-up and crackers and makes him change into pajamas on the sideline.
You are a biggambler, thunderkyss. I enjoy your enthusiasm for the risk-taking...but McNair has no need for lockerroom cancers. He's already got a TO that's better at keeping it real (that'd be Andre Johnson)...no need to tie-up franchise dollars on a guy who has bombed two franchises already.
..." -- thunderkyss
I was thinking the same thing.
That's not really HELPING your image, Donovan. I mean, that's the absolute WORST bit of promotional gimmick I have ever seen. What guy sees that commercial and thinks they want mommy chasing them down and forcing soup down their throat? Lame-o. I really ecpected his mom to come running onto the field during the super bowl to hold a throw-up bowl at his ankles for him when he was puking at the end of the game...and maybe she grabs him some 7-up and crackers and makes him change into pajamas on the sideline.
You are a biggambler, thunderkyss. I enjoy your enthusiasm for the risk-taking...but McNair has no need for lockerroom cancers. He's already got a TO that's better at keeping it real (that'd be Andre Johnson)...no need to tie-up franchise dollars on a guy who has bombed two franchises already.
tulexan
Hall of Fame
How was Vince remarkable his freshman year? He barely could beat out Chance Mock for the starting job and if they were behind and had to throw the ball they would bring in Chance Mock. Last year he was still a liability throwing the ball but a much better runner. This year he is much better in both running and passing.
Tulip
Veteran
tulexan said:
I remember seeing him play (in person) against Nebraska in 2003, and he looked pretty good. It was one of his three 100+ yard rushing games that year. In his first start, he had a 70% completion percentage. His record was 6-1 as a starter.
Chance Mock was given the same sort of "two quarterback" fake merit system treatment that Major Applewhite was given. Totally phony.
Vick runs, he makes plays, his team wins. Carr runs almost as much as Vick, and we've got the 16th rushing attack, and 29th passing offense??tulexan said:
To make an impact, I think we need two studs. One through the first round, the other through Free agency. I don't think we'll be able to get two OLinemen who can make a difference in FA. I don't see two in the Draft, I don't see one of the two past the first round. Your Line won't be as good, as it would be if you did the right thing, and trade down, or trade the pick for an Offensive lineman+tulexan said:
I'm from Port Arthur.... It would mean a lot to me. If he were to have a heisman season, I'd be hurt, alienated, and disenfranchised if they didn't.tulexan said:
Tulip said:
Totally agree. We've been screaming to see more Vince. This was during the time when Mack Brown was trying to mold Vince.
It's not about his image, it's about keeping his head in the game. It would be cool, if he could do the commercials, and not throw away games, but he can't.gpshafer_1976 said:"...and keep his Mom out of the locker Room.
..." -- thunderkyss
I was thinking the same thing.
That's not really HELPING your image, Donovan.
I agree with you 94.65%. I don't think we need T.O. with Johnson on the team, we don't have a place for him. My point, is that T.O. wasn't the Cancer. He's the only person wearing green, who is willing to say what the problem is in Philly. Donavan has more pull in Philly, than Reid, and that ain't good. They won't go anywhere. Kinda like Dallas, with all those "coaches" they went through. Only it won't be so bad, since no one will be able to figure out what the problem is. They'll get rid of Reid, and find another coach, that will work with McNabb.....and that's their problem.gpshafer_1976 said:
tulexan
Hall of Fame
Carr actually runs half as much as Vick and has about half as many yards. I believe Vick averages 5.9 ypc while Carr averages 5.5 ypc.
Carr also has better passing statistics than Vick and has for the past few years. Believe it or not, but a lot of the Falcons success is due to their very good defense. I believe they had one of the best in the league last year and their record reflects it.
This draft is very deep with OL talent. A few linemen who would generally be first round talent will fall to the second round because of players like LenDale White, Omar Jacobs, Vernon Davis, and a bunch of other very talented mid first round underclassmen declaring.
We also don't know what our HC is going to do with the OL. It seems like we are going to have Kubiak from Denver and there are rumors that he may bring the OL coach with him. Proper coaching alone may really improve the line. Improper coaching destroyed it, so you have to think that there is a possibility to undo the damage.
Carr also has better passing statistics than Vick and has for the past few years. Believe it or not, but a lot of the Falcons success is due to their very good defense. I believe they had one of the best in the league last year and their record reflects it.
This draft is very deep with OL talent. A few linemen who would generally be first round talent will fall to the second round because of players like LenDale White, Omar Jacobs, Vernon Davis, and a bunch of other very talented mid first round underclassmen declaring.
We also don't know what our HC is going to do with the OL. It seems like we are going to have Kubiak from Denver and there are rumors that he may bring the OL coach with him. Proper coaching alone may really improve the line. Improper coaching destroyed it, so you have to think that there is a possibility to undo the damage.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
If I were a new HC coming to this team, I'd say, "I don't need a tall, skinny RB and I don't need to spend a #1 pick on a QB when we already have one. What I do need is some linemen who can freaking block and a major defensive over-haul, especially looking at your rediculous selection of safeties. Oh, and I'm not too sure about your kicker either."
GP
Go Texans!
"...My point, is that T.O. wasn't the Cancer. He's the only person wearing green, who is willing to say what the problem is in Philly...." -- thunderkyss
---------------------------
Really? Wow.
So this TO guy should stop playing football and start his career as a consultant to poor little old teams that don't know what their REAL problem is? Sounds like he's a star at something else other than fire-bombing teams.
Contrary to popular belief, the person who yells the loudest nor the longest is NOT always right. I know, I know: Stand up for what's right and don't let "the man" get you down. I just don't see boogey-men behind every bush (pardon the pun).
TO has the ability to be a pretty decent person, but his decision making is scarcely the same level as the Donovan McNabbs of the world.
In fact, he's actually a pretty big coward. He just shoots his mouth when he gets frustrated. Marcus Vick, on the other hand, might pull a gun and shoot PEOPLE when het gets frustrated. And it seems Carr just plays awful when he gets frustrated.
Come to think of it, isn't it funny how we each react to difficult situations?
Hopefully Bob and the new head coach can salvage this franchise. Maybe they'll finally address the most glaring NEED we;'ve had for four years: a true star at OL to anchor this team and protect ANY quarterback's blindside that might be getting the ball snapped his way?
---------------------------
Really? Wow.
So this TO guy should stop playing football and start his career as a consultant to poor little old teams that don't know what their REAL problem is? Sounds like he's a star at something else other than fire-bombing teams.
Contrary to popular belief, the person who yells the loudest nor the longest is NOT always right. I know, I know: Stand up for what's right and don't let "the man" get you down. I just don't see boogey-men behind every bush (pardon the pun).
TO has the ability to be a pretty decent person, but his decision making is scarcely the same level as the Donovan McNabbs of the world.
In fact, he's actually a pretty big coward. He just shoots his mouth when he gets frustrated. Marcus Vick, on the other hand, might pull a gun and shoot PEOPLE when het gets frustrated. And it seems Carr just plays awful when he gets frustrated.
Come to think of it, isn't it funny how we each react to difficult situations?
Hopefully Bob and the new head coach can salvage this franchise. Maybe they'll finally address the most glaring NEED we;'ve had for four years: a true star at OL to anchor this team and protect ANY quarterback's blindside that might be getting the ball snapped his way?
If this is true, with a 16 ranked rushing offense, and a 29th ranked passing offense, I'll spend my draft pick on the passing game before I spend it on a Running back.tulexan said:
But the smart move would be to work on the offensive line. Just like there are many here posting that we can't judge Carr because of the Oline, it's the same with the D. You keep going three and out, and turning the ball over on the short side of the field, your D is going to look bad.
But if I were asked my opinion, I'd say take Vince, and free up some money elsewhere. restructure some contracts, cut an overpriced someone or other, or something, Find a way to bring Vince to Houston.
Nighthawk said:
Irrelevant. The Texans are in a lot worse shape in a heckuva lot of other postions than they are at QB and RB. Young won't be that much of an improvement over Carr -- especially without an improved line. Knowledgeable football people throughout the country would laugh if the Texans took Young since it would be such an obvious boneheaded hometown pick when everybody knows the Texans have much more pressing needs elsewhere.
GP
Go Texans!
"...If this is true, with a 16 ranked rushing offense, and a 29th ranked passing offense, I'll spend my draft pick on the passing game before I spend it on a Running back.
But the smart move would be to work on the offensive line." --thunderkyss
--------------
Dude!
You are blatantly back-peddaling with that comment.
I thought the smart move was VY?
Are you not AGREEING with me now? I have always said from day one of this whole messy debate that we ought to go o line, and you have been anti-o line pick from the get-go. It's all about the highlight maker and never about the guy or guys who help "facilitate" the playmaker. That's obvious in your assumption that TO is not the "real problem," but that he just helps uncover the "real problem" everywhere he goes. It's an 11-man game, bro. a "team" effort.
Wade is known as a great run blocker, thus he's on the right side of the line. What we DON'T have is a great left tackle who can consistently protect ANY quarterback we might have behind center.
You don't get "great" run blocker skils AND "great" pass blocking skills within each o lineman...they pretty much are great at either run or pass but not both unless they are just out-of-this-world god-gifted or something. And that's why we need a great pass blocker on the left side of the line.
THAT ALONE will be neough to take pressure off Wade. Yes, he'll still need to give it his all on pass blocking, but this year's lack of a great left tackle has been the achille's heel of this team....not a bad QB. Carr is not perfect, don't get me wrong, but VY is not the instant meal that he's being touted by people in the press and especially here on this board.
But the smart move would be to work on the offensive line." --thunderkyss
--------------
Dude!
You are blatantly back-peddaling with that comment.
I thought the smart move was VY?
Are you not AGREEING with me now? I have always said from day one of this whole messy debate that we ought to go o line, and you have been anti-o line pick from the get-go. It's all about the highlight maker and never about the guy or guys who help "facilitate" the playmaker. That's obvious in your assumption that TO is not the "real problem," but that he just helps uncover the "real problem" everywhere he goes. It's an 11-man game, bro. a "team" effort.
Wade is known as a great run blocker, thus he's on the right side of the line. What we DON'T have is a great left tackle who can consistently protect ANY quarterback we might have behind center.
You don't get "great" run blocker skils AND "great" pass blocking skills within each o lineman...they pretty much are great at either run or pass but not both unless they are just out-of-this-world god-gifted or something. And that's why we need a great pass blocker on the left side of the line.
THAT ALONE will be neough to take pressure off Wade. Yes, he'll still need to give it his all on pass blocking, but this year's lack of a great left tackle has been the achille's heel of this team....not a bad QB. Carr is not perfect, don't get me wrong, but VY is not the instant meal that he's being touted by people in the press and especially here on this board.
I'll have to go look through my posts. I do believe you'll see one or two, where I've been saying O-Line, we don't need Bush..... I've always been that way, and I've always maintained that if CC picks up Bush, then he really is an *****.
But after watching the Rose Bowl, and Listening to Vince ho-hum about talking it through, and making the right decision about coming to the NFL..... everything changed. not because of his performance in that one game, he's been getting better over the last 18 months. But before that, I was convinced that no Mack Brown Player was going to leave early.
I've got connections and sources Close to Vince, and until that day, they all believed he was going to play for Texas as a Senior.
My gut, the Emotional side of me, says we should take advantage of the situation. He is special, and I think can make an impact his first year. Our offense isn't very complicated, and I think he could do just as good picking up on Defenses, as our 4 year vet. I'm thinking Byron Leftwich type of first season. He sits on the bench, but he is our #2. maybe we can get an O-Lineman for Banks, Morency and Bradford.
The smart move, is always to address needs during the Draft. We don't need Running Backs, We don't need a QB, but I would like to see something better than Banks behind Carr. Vince Young will make a better Back-up/Future in case something really bad happens to Carr, than any other back-up quarterback in the league today, and I think he is worth the #1 overall for it.
It may sound like double talk, but..... I'd take Young..... even though the smart thing is to address needs.
But after watching the Rose Bowl, and Listening to Vince ho-hum about talking it through, and making the right decision about coming to the NFL..... everything changed. not because of his performance in that one game, he's been getting better over the last 18 months. But before that, I was convinced that no Mack Brown Player was going to leave early.
I've got connections and sources Close to Vince, and until that day, they all believed he was going to play for Texas as a Senior.
My gut, the Emotional side of me, says we should take advantage of the situation. He is special, and I think can make an impact his first year. Our offense isn't very complicated, and I think he could do just as good picking up on Defenses, as our 4 year vet. I'm thinking Byron Leftwich type of first season. He sits on the bench, but he is our #2. maybe we can get an O-Lineman for Banks, Morency and Bradford.
The smart move, is always to address needs during the Draft. We don't need Running Backs, We don't need a QB, but I would like to see something better than Banks behind Carr. Vince Young will make a better Back-up/Future in case something really bad happens to Carr, than any other back-up quarterback in the league today, and I think he is worth the #1 overall for it.
It may sound like double talk, but..... I'd take Young..... even though the smart thing is to address needs.
HardKnockTexan
Rookie
even if we end up keeping Carr. This way we can controll what team he goes to. I'd love to see Young running our offense but if the front office decides our best way to go is to trade down I'd HATE to see young on the Titans. So IMO we draft him #1 overall and then pick which team we want to trade him to... maybe NY Jets. Atleast that way we dont have to worry about him destroying us twice a year.
MorKnolle
All Pro
Nighthawk said:
I agree cada, let's see Young's remarkable 3 years:
2003: 84/143-58.7%-1155 yards-6 TDs/7 INTs, 135 carries-998 yards-11 TDs
2004: 148/250-59.2%-1849 yards-12 TDs/11 INTs, 167 carries-1079 yards-14 TDs
2005: 212/325-65.2%-3036 yards-26 TDs/10 INTs, 155 carries-1050 yards-10 TDs
That's far from remarkable passing stats, he ran pretty well throughout his career but only had one decent year of throwing the ball. David's senior year he led the nation in passing yards (4308) and TDs (42)
Here is a comparison of their career stats:
David: 37 games, 587/934-62.6%-7849 yards-70 TDs/23 INTs
Vince: 38 games, 444/718-61.8%-6040 yards-44 TDs/28 INTs, 457 carries-3127 yards-35 TDs
Carr appeared in fewer games, completed a higher percentage of his passes, had a lot more yards and TDs and fewer interceptions, so from a passing standpoint Carr cleary had the better career, so I don't see Vince having 3 "remarkable" years compared to David's one "pretty good" year.
tulexan said:
'scuse me??
HardKnockTexan said:
If you're under the impression that he can destroy a team, then you pick him up. Why would you give him away??
If Carr went to Tenessee, would you be afraid that he'll destroy us twice a year??
Maybe we should pick up all the Quarterbacks??
MorKnolle said:
Okay, let's do a win loss percentage of the teams they faced in those three years.. Car's 1.8% advantage at completion percentages is negated by who they played, compared to who Vince Played. The yards, TDs, and INTs are actually much closer than they look when you factor in the opponent. Vince's ints actually puts him into the plus column when you do.
If we were the Indianapolis Colts, or New England Patriots who hardly give up sacks, this would be less of an issue. Next years Offensive Line should be better next year, but it ain't garaunteed. With this years line, you couldn't have expected anyone to have done much better than Carr, But I would have liked to have seen how Vince would've handled it. Vince/Vick/McNabb/Donavan those are the types of quarterbacks you want behind young inexperienced Offensive linemen.
And I am in no way saying that Carr isn't a good athlete. I'd say he's on par with Vince, he's got a better arm than Vince. But that doesn't mean he's right for this team. It really doesn't make since, since this team was built aroun Carr, but that's the way it is.
We need to get better at offensive line, no doubt. But I don't want to wait till we have ProBowlers at every position before we start winning games.
