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McNair to NFL: Overturn Cushing suspension

michaelm said:
Did anyone hear the interview with Dr. David Black around 4pm today on 610? It's interesting and worth a listen if you have a few minutes. Doctor Black describes the method which is used by the NFL for hCG testing, and how he believes that it wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny.

http://kilt.cbslocal.com/2010/08/09/dr-david-black/#more-12248


Here is an excerpt from the Yahoo.com article that (I believe) prompted 610 to have Dr. Black on the show.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner
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This...100%

I used to work at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in LA (I worked with the VP of Psychiatry...specifically, a renown expert in addiction), and I personally ran a drug testing machine on occasion. This particular machine was more "precise" than most standard machines.....it could even detect if someone had a drink within the past week. HOWEVER.....some of the parameters that would be derived from the testing had to be given at least a second evaluation. For instance, there was a female who, based upon the "typical" thresholds, would have tested "positive" for a controlled substance. In reality, it turned out that she was pregnant...and was not yet aware of this.

Most people do not have a proper understanding of how such testing works. Often, certain levels of many various parameters are compiled in order to reasonably assume that a particular substance may be present. It is not necessarily a clear-cut "pass-fail" situation.....although it is usually reasonable to determine. In Cushing's case, the level of such "indicators" was set by the NFL, not the NIH, or even the medical community. Even the previously accepted levels of this substance by the NFL were within the range of where Cushing tested.

For me, there are simply too many questions as too how this was determined/evaluated. I have seen, first-hand, circumstances where such things could have been improperly evaluated. If Cushing was taking hCG to recover from Steroid use, he should have tested positive for it a long, long time ago (not to mention testing positive for Steroids to BEGIN with...at some point). Let's assume that he WAS intentionally taking this.....it would have been such a small amount that there would have been no discernible benefit from it, especially since the test surrounding it were within the "allowed" range. Given the "negative" nature of tests surrounding the "positive" one, it seems quite likely to me that this is an anomaly, and that the "standards" for such testing should be properly vetted by experienced physicians.

Keep in mind, that this particular substance is something that is naturally present in all of us. I think that in this particular debate, this fact is far too often overlooked. If it was a "foreign" substance, that'd admittedly be a different story altogether........but it's simply NOT the case.

Too many people wrongly assume that there is a actual specific "test" for things, and many do not realize that hCG occurs naturally in all humans. This is partly the fault of the press, who insist on characterizing hCG as a PED/banned substance. If it was truly a "banned" substance, we would have no NFL at all. In reality...it is a naturally occurring substance that MAY indicate a number of varying circumstances, or may not even do that....given the particular determined "acceptable" range, which....given the NFL's variance of determination, is arbitrary at best.
 
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CloakNNNdagger said:
Would you bet your life empirically on the "evidence" submitted? There has to be a method of verifying and validating the results. And by the time the results are reproduced, if they even can be, the 5 game suspension would have been served.

Technically, even if the "new evidence" is validated, the opportunity for submission by the very Policy of the CBA, was offered and not produced/available (for whatever reason) prior to the final appeals decision.......that "decision being binding to all parties."
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They would defer the suspension until they reach a conclusion. I'm guessing Goodell has executive power on these things.

I'm also guessing that McNair's intention is not to go in there and try to exculpate Cushing by saying, "This is why he failed the test," but to completely nullify the validity of the test by saying, "Here are some natural factors not accounted for in this test." This would be supported with testimonials by Cushing's doctors. The article linked earlier in this thread that quotes Dr. Black lends to this approach.

edit: Actually, what I just said is plainly stated in the article: "contesting the test should be more about the process than the result."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner
 
texansdrummer said:
Most people do not have a proper understanding of how such testing works. Often, certain levels of many various parameters are compiled in order to reasonably assume that a particular substance may be present. It is not necessarily a clear-cut "pass-fail" situation.....although it is usually reasonable to determine. In Cushing's case, the level of such "indicators" was set by the NFL, not the NIH, or even the medical community. Even the previously accepted levels of this substance by the NFL were within the range of where Cushing tested.
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Articles explaining the standards of this test basically said that males don't generate anywhere near the levels of hCG flagged by the NFL, who I'm sure use knowledgeable in-house doctors. Not to say the test isn't flawed, but I don't think the NFL's arbitrary standards are the problem.

texansdrummer said:
For me, there are simply too many questions as too how this was determined/evaluated. I have seen, first-hand, circumstances where such things could have been improperly evaluated. If Cushing was taking hCG to recover from Steroid use, he should have tested positive for it a long, long time ago (not to mention testing positive for Steroids to BEGIN with...at some point). Let's assume that he WAS intentionally taking this.....it would have been such a small amount that there would have been no discernible benefit from it, especially since the test surrounding it were within the "allowed" range. Given the "negative" nature of tests surrounding the "positive" one, it seems quite likely to me that this is an anomaly, and that the "standards" for such testing should be properly vetted by experienced physicians.
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Why would he have tested positive a long time ago? Was he tested by the NFL before the positive test in question?
 
Brisco_County said:
Articles explaining the standards of this test basically said that males don't generate anywhere near the levels of hCG flagged by the NFL, who I'm sure use knowledgeable in-house doctors. Not to say the test isn't flawed, but I don't think the NFL's arbitrary standards are the problem.



Why would he have tested positive a long time ago? Was he tested by the NFL before the positive test in question?
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There is not a singular test for levels of hCG. Yes...he was apparently tested BEFORE and AFTER this particular test..... both were within the "acceptable" range. The fact that it was only SLIGHTLY over the NFL "standard", combined with no other instances (although some may have been close), lead me (as someone with at least some limited experience in substance testing) to believe him. Even IF he was taking hCG...this level - and given that it was only SLIGHTLY elevated over the given standard....it would have afforded him absolutely NO advantage whatsoever. At LEAST....if you were allegedly going to enhance a naturally occurring substance....he would have needed to take WAY more than the level that he tested for. He's smart enough that he would have known about this, 100%, and I highly doubt that he'd continue to make an issue of it if he thought it wasn't possible that it could possibly happen again. There's nothing to be gained by his fight if he were guilty....almost everyone already assumes he's guilty. The easy way out would be to sweep it under the rug and move on.

In order to obtain ANY reasonable "benefit" from actually enhancing his level of hCG would have required using steroids. He has NEVER tested positive for steroids. He only ONCE tested outside of the offending "indicators" for hCG (according to current NFL standards)...and it was only slightly awry. Had the same test results been given in years past, we would not be having this debate.

Apologies for my medical/substance testing experience and knowledge.....what the %^&* could THAT be worth, anyways?
 
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think that somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body. I haven't heard anyone really believing him, though, John McClain probably does. He probably believes inactivity leads to a special hormone that caused him to resemble Grimace.
 
HoustonFrog said:
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think they somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body.
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Explain the negative tests (all during last season) after positive test, Counselor.
 
Clemens was accused of steriods not Hcg..

i am going with Bob's word on this, if it was just Cushing ,I would be skeptical

but i am usually wrong :thud:
 
HoustonFrog said:
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think they somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body.
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See, i would be more inclined to go with you on all of this but i dont know..This guy has had this cloud of steroids over him since high school b/c he's been a beast since then. But yet, at least to my knowledge, nothing than can be remotely tied to him regarding steroids or PED's has ever come out this entire time. Everything up until this drug test has mainly been psuedo-analysts looking at pictures.

It's different than the roger clemens situation b/c there were clear abnormalities with his performance on the field. I mean come on a 40+ yr. old "power pitcher" still dominating after he was thought to be done 7-8 years earlier? Plus, all sorts of things started coming out with him after Mcnamee that linked him.

It just occurs to me that maybe b/c this guy has been fighting this stigma since high school it's more likely that he would stay away from PED's.....At least that's how i would've been thinking if i were in his shoes.
 
Texan_Bill said:
More or less.... :kitten:
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Figured..good point. If your system is prone to this happening and working out is your life or part of your job then where are the subsequent positive tests.

Mr teX said:
See, i would be more inclined to go with you on all of this but i dont know..This guy has had this cloud of steroids over him since high school b/c he's been a beast since then. But yet, at least to my knowledge, nothing than can be remotely tied to him regarding steroids or PED's has ever come out this entire time. Everything up until this drug test has mainly been psuedo-analysts looking at pictures.

It's different than the roger clemens situation b/c there were clear abnormalities with his performance on the field. I mean come on a 40+ yr. old "power pitcher" still dominating after he was thought to be done 7-8 years earlier? Plus, all sorts of things started coming out with him after Mcnamee that linked him.

It just occurs to me that maybe b/c this guy has been fighting this stigma since high school it's more likely that he would stay away from PED's.....At least that's how i would've been thinking if i were in his shoes.
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I see what you are saying(though, maybe you wouldn't stay away because it has made your career and you have effectively hid it)...I'm just of the opinion that if you throw enough money at a problem, someone will finally agree that your issue is real. I'm not sure who these docs are but there was alot of cash paid for the right result. I mean even Cushings response was strange and sounded like this..."I think that's the final diagnosis we came up with."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7146628.html
 
While i do agree with you H-frog that nothing will come of this as far as Cush's suspension, I think Goodell & the NFL will look at refining the testing procedure as a result of this though b/c the NFL procedure has been exposed..Maybe that's what Mcnair's ultimate goal was..Reducing cushing's suspensionn was maybe an added bonus he was shooting for.
 
If hCG is on the banned substance list simply because it can sometimes be used during/after a steroid cycle to maintain the normal size of testicles and testosterone levels... then I think if a player tests above the "acceptable" hCG levels per NFL policy, they should implement further testing on the player concentrating on the possible use of steroids.

However, if it is also on the list because it can be used for weight-loss, then I don't know...

The key here, to me, is that hCG is NOT a masking agent for steroids. It's not going to hide the fact whether a player took steroids or not.

Again, I don't think Cushing's 4 game suspension is going to get lessened any. What I do hope is that this "appeal" may (i) change the way they conduct testing and/or (ii) help if Cushing or any other player (particularly on the Texans) ever tests beyond the normal levels again. If Cushing really is completely innocent, it would suck to test positive again and he gets a 1 year suspension (or 8 games or whatever the penalty). Heck 1 game would be bad enough.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
If hCG is on the banned substance list simply because it can sometimes be used during/after a steroid cycle to maintain the normal size of testicles and testosterone levels... then I think if a player tests above the "acceptable" hCG levels per NFL policy, they should implement further testing on the player concentrating on the possible use of steroids.

However, if it is also on the list because it can be used for weight-loss, then I don't know...

The key here, to me, is that hCG is NOT a masking agent for steroids. It's not going to hide the fact whether a player took steroids or not.

Again, I don't think Cushing's 4 game suspension is going to get lessened any. What I do hope is that this "appeal" may (i) change the way they conduct testing and/or (ii) help if Cushing or any other player (particularly on the Texans) ever tests beyond the normal levels again. If Cushing really is completely innocent, it would suck to test positive again and he gets a 1 year suspension (or 8 games or whatever the penalty). Heck 1 game would be bad enough.
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He's getting suspended for a caution flag and not a red flag . If anything a caution should put you on the watched list and no more .
 
HoustonFrog said:
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think that somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body. I haven't heard anyone really believing him, though, John McClain probably does. He probably believes inactivity leads to a special hormone that caused him to resemble Grimace.
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He abruptly stopped working out during training camp last year due to injury. That may explain the spike in hCg in Sept. From what I've read on this syndrome, the spike in hCg occurs after work outs have stopped. That would fit the timeline of what he's claiming. Too many people put thier blind faith in science. It's not as exact as many people believe.

I don't think it really matters what the NFL's decision is on this matter because I can see this going to court and being tied-up there for a long time. My prediction is he will not miss any games in 2010 due to this suspension.

People tend to mock what they do not understand.
 
HoustonFrog said:
This guy has always been a workout warrior. Now he tests positive once and this is what he comes up with? I'm sorry, I refuse to bite and I think it is a bit embarrassing. This reminds me of Clemens and his denials. Just keep denying until you, yourself believe it or something else comes up to deflect it. This should have been a dead subject. It is almost like USC guys have this air of invincibility and they think that somehow they can work their way out of trouble if they look hard enough for the right answer.

There is no way in hell the NFL can touch the suspension. Every guy busted with this type of thing in his system will say he worked out too hard. There is no way to prove it wasn't it. It opens up a massive can of worms. And why would he be coming off working out in September...right before playing. The guy never stops working out and was probably working out harder than ever pre-combine when his tests were negative.

I just call b.s. That simple. Next thing you know a player will say he had a positive test because he is single and looks at too much porn, thus elevating different levels in his body. I haven't heard anyone really believing him, though, John McClain probably does. He probably believes inactivity leads to a special hormone that caused him to resemble Grimace.
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Not sure I agree with the premise but, I do think it's going to be hard for Goodell to lift the suspension because of the can of worms it could open.

Texan_Bill said:
Explain the negative tests (all during last season) after positive test, Counselor.
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This is the one thing that continues to bother me in all of this nothing at the combine, pre-season, and nothing after.

HoustonFrog said:
Figured..good point. If your system is prone to this happening and working out is your life or part of your job then where are the subsequent positive tests.



I see what you are saying(though, maybe you wouldn't stay away because it has made your career and you have effectively hid it)...I'm just of the opinion that if you throw enough money at a problem, someone will finally agree that your issue is real. I'm not sure who these docs are but there was alot of cash paid for the right result. I mean even Cushings response was strange and sounded like this..."I think that's the final diagnosis we came up with."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7146628.html
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This is another problem. For all the rumors surrounding Cushing, until now he hasn't failed a test. Even then it wasn't for a banned substance but a slightly elevated level of a naturally occurring hormone.

Ole Miss Texan said:
If hCG is on the banned substance list simply because it can sometimes be used during/after a steroid cycle to maintain the normal size of testicles and testosterone levels... then I think if a player tests above the "acceptable" hCG levels per NFL policy, they should implement further testing on the player concentrating on the possible use of steroids.

However, if it is also on the list because it can be used for weight-loss, then I don't know...

The key here, to me, is that hCG is NOT a masking agent for steroids. It's not going to hide the fact whether a player took steroids or not.

Again, I don't think Cushing's 4 game suspension is going to get lessened any. What I do hope is that this "appeal" may (i) change the way they conduct testing and/or (ii) help if Cushing or any other player (particularly on the Texans) ever tests beyond the normal levels again. If Cushing really is completely innocent, it would suck to test positive again and he gets a 1 year suspension (or 8 games or whatever the penalty). Heck 1 game would be bad enough.
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hCG is not on the banned list, because it's a naturally occurring hormone.What's important to remember is he tested for a slightly elevated level. His numbers have always been high, but this time it crested just over what the NFL NOW has deemed an acceptable level. If I recall this right it was changed pretty recently.

All I'm going to say is that in the end most athletes who do get busted, do for levels much higher or foreign substances. They also pretty much accept the suspension and try and move on. This is certainly a lot of effort being put forth over a slightly elevated level of hCG. Maybe I'm a sucker, but I'm inclined to believe Brian.

Far as it being some sort of preemptive action I don't think so. I think Brian likely has gathered a fair amount of medical research supporting him and has made a compelling enough case to get the owner on board. Bob knows he's got a good shot at making the playoffs this year and having last year's DROY on the field for the first four games of the season could be a difference maker.
 
I want to believe Brian Cushing. I really, really do.

If he is telling the truth, he need to take this battle to court. If he tested positive for hCG and he honestly does not know how and is blaming "Overtrained Athlete Syndrome" he NEEDS to take this to court.

There is too much of a risk of another "false" positive if it is a condition that is occurring naturally for him. Goodell has already shown a reluctance to enforce suspensions (Vikings/Saints) when a legal precedence has been set. If he just takes the suspension, it is telling me he is either guilty or short sighted.
 
I finally just decided that I believe him. I originally knee jerked a little towards disgust and sadness that this guy who brought passion and respectability to the Texans defense wasn't real but I read, considered, decided (that he was most likely guilty I admit) and finally went on about my business. Then we saw the story come back with Bob McNair going to bat for Cushing, and after reading the newer information I had to rethink things. Upon further consideration I find myself leaning towards believing him and laying this lone positive test on a freaky body that doesn't produce the normal amount of hCg all the time. I can accept that possibility without much of a stretch of my imagination.

I've got a liver that cranks out elevated levels of a couple of enzymes that flag me in HIV and Hep tests. I have neither but eventually gave up donating blood because it always results in a scary letter (plus they throw my blood away, can't take a chance and I agree with that policy completely). Not everybody is the same and while this may be apple to oranges it is my experience and I can only look at this through my own eyes.

I believe Cushing. Bob McNair believes Cushing. They should take this to Goodell (and did obviously) and if he won't do anything for them explain that they must pursue this in a court of law because it isn't what it looks like. I think McNair is a the quiet guy and the low-key "take the long way and do it right" kind of owner. At the same time I think once he decides he's right and he's going to do something about it then he'll take it as far as he reasonably can. I think we're going to be talking to a Judge once Goodell makes his decision. I hope we are.
 
Hervoyel said:
I finally just decided that I believe him. I originally knee jerked a little towards disgust and sadness that this guy who brought passion and respectability to the Texans defense wasn't real but I read, considered, decided (that he was most likely guilty I admit) and finally went on about my business. Then we saw the story come back with Bob McNair going to bat for Cushing, and after reading the newer information I had to rethink things. Upon further consideration I find myself leaning towards believing him and laying this lone positive test on a freaky body that doesn't produce the normal amount of hCg all the time. I can accept that possibility without much of a stretch of my imagination.

I've got a liver that cranks out elevated levels of a couple of enzymes that flag me in HIV and Hep tests. I have neither but eventually gave up donating blood because it always results in a scary letter (plus they throw my blood away, can't take a chance and I agree with that policy completely). Not everybody is the same and while this may be apple to oranges it is my experience and I can only look at this through my own eyes.

I believe Cushing. Bob McNair believes Cushing. They should take this to Goodell (and did obviously) and if he won't do anything for them explain that they must pursue this in a court of law because it isn't what it looks like. I think McNair is a the quiet guy and the low-key "take the long way and do it right" kind of owner. At the same time I think once he decides he's right and he's going to do something about it then he'll take it as far as he reasonably can. I think we're going to be talking to a Judge once Goodell makes his decision. I hope we are.
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Very interesting.

I kind of thought the same thing about Cushing. I really have no idea if he cheated or not, but I do know that not everyone is the same. Look at these professional athletes. Look at the size that they are and the bulk that they carry. To me, it's obvious that they are genetically different to some extent. All the hard work in the world can't make you grow to 6'7" and weigh a cut up 280 lbs. I've seen those shows on TV about those kids, or even adults, who are extremely tall. They are producing an elevated level of something that is allowing them to be that way. I get that it was one of the reasons that a tumor could have been a cause of the high levels, but it may just be natural for him and not caused by anything out of the norm. Pencil Neck made mention earlier of someone that he knows that has really high testosterone levels. People vary. Period.
 
Cjeremy635 said:
Very interesting.

I kind of thought the same thing about Cushing. I really have no idea if he cheated or not, but I do know that not everyone is the same. Look at these professional athletes. Look at the size that they are and the bulk that they carry. To me, it's obvious that they are genetically different to some extent. All the hard work in the world can't make you grow to 6'7" and weigh a cut up 280 lbs. I've seen those shows on TV about those kids, or even adults, who are extremely tall. They are producing an elevated level of something that is allowing them to be that way. I get that it was one of the reasons that a tumor could have been a cause of the high levels, but it may just be natural for him and not caused by anything out of the norm. Pencil Neck made mention earlier of someone that he knows that has really high testosterone levels. People vary. Period.
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I believe that Cushing did not take steroids or anything to off-set steroid use.

Like you and Herv said above, everyone's body is different. If I'm not mistaken, Cushing would have passed the test with the same levels last year. Also, he voluntarily took and passed a lie detector test.

For some reason I think his body just produced the elevated levels of HGC. I may be a fool for believing him, but iiwii.
 
I think if this was Chris Johnson then we would see the skepticism level rise dramtically.

On a side note I paid my doctor $1000 to tell my wife that one beer in my system actually elevates my BAC to triple normal levels so I really did only have a "couple of drinks" when I came home so drunk the other night. :fingergun:

I'll edit this on..saw PK had a mailbag section on this today...this is just for info

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/08/10/mail/index.html?xid=cnnbin&hpt=Sbin

In my Monday column, I told you that Houston linebacker Brian Cushing and the owner of the Texans, Bob McNair, would be asking the league to reduce or erase the four-game suspension for a positive performance-enhancing drug test based on a defense that Cushing tested positive for elevated levels of hCG because of overtrained athlete syndrome.

Today, I bring you an expert in hCG research, courtesy of the work of SI's David Epstein. He interviewed Laurence A. Cole, hCG researcher at the University of New Mexico and director of the hCG Reference Service. Cole gave an explanation about how Cushing could have tested positive by ingesting nothing -- but simply by overtraining, as Cushing has claimed. But Cole also made it clear that, in his opinion, such a claim is highly unlikely.

Cole said there are conditions that could trigger false positives in a man. The testicles could completely stop working -- as in a case of testicular cancer, or a disease called hypogonadotropism (which basically means the testicles stop working), or a hereditary disease called hCG syndrome -- resulting in more than normal hCG being produced in the body. Said Cole: "All these things are rare and remote. The honest truth is that 999 times out of a thousand, the test gives a correct result. If they're positive, they're taking hCG.''

When Epstein asked about the overtrained athlete syndrome, Cole said: "It sounds like a far stretch ... I have never seen a case like that."
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HoustonFrog said:
I think if this was Chris Johnson then we would see the skepticism level rise dramtically.

On a side note I paid my doctor $1000 to tell my wife that one beer in my system actually elevates my BAC to triple normal levels so I really did only have a "couple of drinks" when I came home so drunk the other night. :fingergun:
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Yeah, but did your wife pay her lawyer $1000 to point out that when you triple something that is zero, you still end up with zero (and that you need a Dr. who's better at math)? :bender:
 
I think Mcnair told the comissioner that Cushing will serve his suspension when the williams brothers serve their first game. Have they every served one of their games for their positive tests?
 
GNTLEWOLF said:
Also, I can appreciate fan loyalty, but I hope we all remember the mental gymnastics we have all gone through to excuse Cushing when some other player from another team has a similar problem in the future.
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I admire the mental gymnastics by Texans fans to circle the wagons around one of our own. Fans are loyal that way.

However, if this was Brian Cushing the Tennessee Titan's star LB, he'd be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed on this board by these same folks. The continued story would only reinforce that verdict.

It is what it is.

eriadoc said:
I guess I'll respond to both of these posts with the same phrase:

Occam's Razor.
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This logic is like a giant planet whose gravitational force keeps pulling my mind back into it's orbit. I consider everything and all perspectives, but my mind still ends up around this same planet (although, only my mind, because my heart that bleeds battle red want to believe Cush...).

Hervoyel said:
I finally just decided that I believe him. I originally knee jerked a little towards disgust and sadness that this guy who brought passion and respectability to the Texans defense wasn't real but I read, considered, decided (that he was most likely guilty I admit) and finally went on about my business. Then we saw the story come back with Bob McNair going to bat for Cushing, and after reading the newer information I had to rethink things. Upon further consideration I find myself leaning towards believing him and laying this lone positive test on a freaky body that doesn't produce the normal amount of hCg all the time. I can accept that possibility without much of a stretch of my imagination.

I've got a liver that cranks out elevated levels of a couple of enzymes that flag me in HIV and Hep tests. I have neither but eventually gave up donating blood because it always results in a scary letter (plus they throw my blood away, can't take a chance and I agree with that policy completely). Not everybody is the same and while this may be apple to oranges it is my experience and I can only look at this through my own eyes.

I believe Cushing. Bob McNair believes Cushing. They should take this to Goodell (and did obviously) and if he won't do anything for them explain that they must pursue this in a court of law because it isn't what it looks like. I think McNair is a the quiet guy and the low-key "take the long way and do it right" kind of owner. At the same time I think once he decides he's right and he's going to do something about it then he'll take it as far as he reasonably can. I think we're going to be talking to a Judge once Goodell makes his decision. I hope we are.
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Good post, Herv, and something to consider. I've got elevated levels of triglycerides - much higher than 'average' and much to the detriment of my pancreas - so I can see your logic.

However, the difference is that every triglyceride test that I've ever taken in the past decade reveals...that I've got abnormally high triglycerides. They do not fluctuate to 'normal' levels, so while I can certainly understand where you're coming from, it's tough to swallow when his body is not producing elevated levels on a regular basis.

All that being said, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because he's a Houston Texan. I'll just have to live with that splinter in my mind's eye about that Occam's Razor planet, though.
 
Another thing I meant to mention in my post above is that I keep wondering when the guy with the steroids is going to show up.

I keep hearing that rumors of steroid use have dogged Cushing since high school. It just takes a moment to look over pictures of him from then until today in Google Images to see why they started. So where's the clown who always comes forward after a while to say that he saw Brian Cushing using steroids or he injected him, supplied him, delivered a brown paper bag for him, whatever? Nobody can do this in a vacuum. Someone knows Brian Cushing used steroids (if he used steroids) and that person always comes forward when the athlete in question gets busted.

So far no news conference or book excerpt. No interview in the LA Times. You would think that this would at least go over well in a good USC tell-all book with some Reggie Bush scandal right?

It's circumstantial admittedly but it's another thing that combined with everything else has me thinking Cushing is telling the truth. If that guy does appear and steps forward with real evidence then Brian Cushing is going to find Bob McNair wont be amused.
 
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Hervoyel said:
I finally just decided that I believe him. I originally knee jerked a little towards disgust and sadness that this guy who brought passion and respectability to the Texans defense wasn't real but I read, considered, decided (that he was most likely guilty I admit) and finally went on about my business. Then we saw the story come back with Bob McNair going to bat for Cushing, and after reading the newer information I had to rethink things. Upon further consideration I find myself leaning towards believing him and laying this lone positive test on a freaky body that doesn't produce the normal amount of hCg all the time. I can accept that possibility without much of a stretch of my imagination.

I've got a liver that cranks out elevated levels of a couple of enzymes that flag me in HIV and Hep tests. I have neither but eventually gave up donating blood because it always results in a scary letter (plus they throw my blood away, can't take a chance and I agree with that policy completely). Not everybody is the same and while this may be apple to oranges it is my experience and I can only look at this through my own eyes.

I believe Cushing. Bob McNair believes Cushing. They should take this to Goodell (and did obviously) and if he won't do anything for them explain that they must pursue this in a court of law because it isn't what it looks like. I think McNair is a the quiet guy and the low-key "take the long way and do it right" kind of owner. At the same time I think once he decides he's right and he's going to do something about it then he'll take it as far as he reasonably can. I think we're going to be talking to a Judge once Goodell makes his decision. I hope we are.
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Hope Goodell comes to the same conclusion. what are the odds of that happening 5 in 100?
 
Double Barrel said:
Good post, Herv, and something to consider. I've got elevated levels of triglycerides - much higher than 'average' and much to the detriment of my pancreas - so I can see your logic.

However, the difference is that every triglyceride test that I've ever taken in the past decade reveals...that I've got abnormally high triglycerides. They do not fluctuate to 'normal' levels, so while I can certainly understand where you're coming from, it's tough to swallow when his body is not producing elevated levels on a regular basis.
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That's a very good point.

We, the fans, don't know what Cushing's "normal" level of hCG is. It might be high normal, almost too high, just as a baseline and for some reason, it spiked and set off the positive. BUT... that "spike" might be a relatively small amount. That might be some of the information that they passed to the NFL's medical committee. That would explain the comments about taking certain player's baselines into account for the tests.

Cushing has an enlarged pituitary gland. This could possibly be a side effect of that combined with the overtraining syndrome.
 
Double Barrel said:
I admire the mental gymnastics by Texans fans to circle the wagons around one of our own. Fans are loyal that way.

However, if this was Brian Cushing the Tennessee Titan's star LB, he'd be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed on this board by these same folks. The continued story would only reinforce that verdict.

It is what it is.



This logic is like a giant planet whose gravitational force keeps pulling my mind back into it's orbit. I consider everything and all perspectives, but my mind still ends up around this same planet (although, only my mind, because my heart that bleeds battle red want to believe Cush...).
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Yep, which is why I don't post alot in threads like this. I've already accepted the fact that Cushing already has that label and will always have that label no matter what the Commish says. He's still going to be suspended for 4 games.. So I kinda wish that they wouldn't of brought it back up, but it is kinda cool to see your owner step up in a BIG WAY for one of his players. Bob McNair is getting major props from the players in that locker room (and probably from alot of players around the league, this will only help us in the future) and this is after Andre Johnson said his major goal now is to win Mr. McNair a championship.
 
Hervoyel said:
Another thing I meant to mention in my post above is that I keep wondering when the guy with the steroids is going to show up.

I keep hearing that rumors of steroid use have dogged Cushing since high school. It just takes a moment to look over pictures of him from then until today in Google Images to see why they started. So where's the clown who always comes forward after a while to say that he saw Brian Cushing using steroids or he injected him, supplied him, delivered a brown paper bag for him, whatever? Nobody can do this in a vacuum. Someone knows Brian Cushing used steroids (if he used steroids) and that person always comes forward when the athlete in question gets busted.

So far no news conference or book excerpt. No interview in the LA Times. You would think that this would at least go in a good USC tell-all book with some Reggie Bush scandal right?

It's circumstantial admittedly but it's another thing that combined with everything else has me thinking Cushing is telling the truth. That guy appears and steps forward with real evidence and Brian Cushing is going to find Bob McNair isn't going to be amused.
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Thats a good point.

That and the fact that he's never had another positive test for roids or hCG despite rigourous testing in the NCAA...
 
infantrycak said:
He passed the pre-combine test and he passed the testosterone test just before his rookie season but failed the hcg test. This is why CnD and I had a long discussion about time lines and whether he may have used 18 months or so before the failed test (like before or during his last college season) and then supplemented hcg because he thought his marbles weren't the right size or functioning normally.
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Do they not test for hcg levels with the pre-combine test?

I may not be understanding right, but it sounds like you're saying he may have potentially used 'roids in the past...

Got off of them in time to pass his pre-combine test...but because he may have thought his testicles weren't normal he decided to take hcg and then failed the test?

Maybe I'm understanding wrong, but wouldn't that be super dumb on his part? To have passed all those tests, but decide to take hcg because his balls weren't big enough? Seems like he should have just left them alone...
 
From HoustonFrog's link:
Said Cole: "All these things are rare and remote. The honest truth is that 999 times out of a thousand, the test gives a correct result. If they're positive, they're taking hCG.''
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Well the doctor is saying that 999 out of thousand times the test gives a correct result. I think we're all in the boat, including Cushing, that we take the test as being accurate... we're just wondering/hoping/trying to find out WHY it came back like that.

Just for amusement let's say we are NOT convinced the test was accurate. So he states that 999 out of 1,000 times it's accurate which means 1 out of 1,000 times the test could produce false results.

Now going on the conservative basis of 53 players per active roster and there being 32 teams, that's 1,696 players in the NFL on an active roster at any given time. That's 1,696 players that we KNOW have been tested at least ONCE. This does not include an other players that have been cut/never made the active roster or a team/are on the practice squad... who all should have been tested as well.

So if the statistics are correct, with 1,696 players getting tested (meaning 1,696 tests being administered) that's 1.696 players that could find themselves receiving a false result. And that's only one test! These players are tested multiple times so this only increases the chances that a player could falsely test positive for this.

I'm not saying I believe the results were false... I'm just saying that based on the statistic that the "Expert" gave, it's completely viable that 1 person in the NFL could get a false result EACH TIME THEY GET TESTED. That's just due to the shear numbers of players getting tested.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
From HoustonFrog's link:

Well the doctor is saying that 999 out of thousand times the test gives a correct result. I think we're all in the boat, including Cushing, that we take the test as being accurate... we're just wondering/hoping/trying to find out WHY it came back like that.

Just for amusement let's say we are NOT convinced the test was accurate. So he states that 999 out of 1,000 times it's accurate which means 1 out of 1,000 times the test could produce false results.

Now going on the conservative basis of 53 players per active roster and there being 32 teams, that's 1,696 players in the NFL on an active roster at any given time. That's 1,696 players that we KNOW have been tested at least ONCE. This does not include an other players that have been cut/never made the active roster or a team/are on the practice squad... who all should have been tested as well.

So if the statistics are correct, with 1,696 players getting tested (meaning 1,696 tests being administered) that's 1.696 players that could find themselves receiving a false result. And that's only one test! These players are tested multiple times so this only increases the chances that a player could falsely test positive for this.

I'm not saying I believe the results were false... I'm just saying that based on the statistic that the "Expert" gave, it's completely viable that 1 person in the NFL could get a false result EACH TIME THEY GET TESTED. That's just due to the shear numbers of players getting tested.
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Really good point.
 
Double Barrel said:
I admire the mental gymnastics by Texans fans to circle the wagons around one of our own. Fans are loyal that way.

However, if this was Brian Cushing the Tennessee Titan's star LB, he'd be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed on this board by these same folks. The continued story would only reinforce that verdict.
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Sounds like bias either way.

If Texans fans--the ones who actually take time to learn about the situation--aren't qualified to make a judgement then who is?

Of course there will be different opinions, but I don't think that just because we're fans of the Texans we can't look at what we know about the situation and attempt to take our own bias out of it.

Personally, I've gone back and forth on the issue...and in the end, I will never 'know'...
 
Here's how I feel, blunt and to my point.

At this point I don't care if he took it or not. Half the NFL's likely on some sort of PED. I just want him back on the field ASAP. If that means McNair fluffing up Goodell, so be it.
 
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Rey said:
Thats a good point.

That and the fact that he's never had another positive test for roids or hCG despite rigourous testing in the NCAA...
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Fact: Cushing was tested for steroids 23 times while at USC.

I'm going to predict right now that McNair will win this one. Look at the position Goodell is being put in: He has to defend the veracity of a relatively new test against its first guilty subject. The guilty party is bringing to the table a well-researched, professionally supported case of questions and variables that the NFL does not have empirically supported answers for.
 
Jerome Solomon's story today:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/7146628.html

"None of the doctors I spoke to Monday has ever heard of a connection between the little-known overtrained athlete syndrome and hCG. They are as interested in finding out what "science to back it up," Cushing claims he has."

How many doctors until now were even aware of hCG in relation to steroid use? This is a relatively new discussion in sports, which I never heard about until Manny Ramirez.

"Overtrained athlete syndrome is a new one as far as a performance-enhancing drug-use defense. Worse for Cushing, most of the literature and medical writings about the overtrained athlete lists issues - immune system problems, iron deficiency and anemia, decrease in body mass, muscle tenderness and a decrease in performance - that don't exactly fit anywhere into his rookie-of-the-year season."

Cushing's method of training is abnormal. The symptoms listed probably wouldn't apply.

So doctors are unfamiliar with this syndrome and its relation to hCG. Ok. Most doctors were unfamiliar with Celiac sprue not too long ago, and that's being diagnosed everywhere right now. New types of tests can expand our common knowledge of the human body, so I don't put much stock in what Solomon's two rolodex medical sources have to say about it until more research takes place.
 
I think this is all a coverup.

McNair was really going to Goodell to say "Let Cushing play or I'm going to team up with Jerry in Dallas to prevent the NFL from agreeing on a CBA and we're going to have a lockout year."
 
I don't think Goodell is going to overturn it, simply because doing so would send a message to all the other owners and players, that if they march enough witnesses and present enough "evidence", they can get any suspension overturned.

Overturning it would set a precedent that I don't think the commisioner really wants to set. As a Texans fan, I'm hoping I'm wrong, but looking at the NFL as a whole, this a can of worms.

As for my opinion of whether Cushing is really innocent, Occam's razor reigns supreme.
 
Marcus said:
I don't think Goodell is going to overturn it, simply because doing so would send a message to all the other owners and players, that if they march enough witnesses and present enough "evidence", they can get any suspension overturned.

Overturning it would set a precedent that I don't think the commisioner really wants to set.

As a Texans fan, I'm hoping I'm wrong, but looking at the NFL as a whole, this a can of worms.

As for my opinion of whether Cushing is really innocent, Occam's razor reigns supreme.
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I've read that Cushing is the only NFL player to be suspended for elevated HCG levels, so the precedent would only effect any players suspended for HCG. I don't think it's unreasonable to forgive this suspension and then bolster the way HCG is tested to make the test as reliable as the others used to detect PEDs.
 
Marcus said:
I don't think Goodell is going to overturn it, simply because doing so would send a message to all the other owners and players, that if they march enough witnesses and present enough "evidence", they can get any suspension overturned.

Overturning it would set a precedent that I don't think the commisioner really wants to set. As a Texans fan, I'm hoping I'm wrong, but looking at the NFL as a whole, this a can of worms.

As for my opinion of whether Cushing is really innocent, Occam's razor reigns supreme.
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We're not talking about a steroid test though. This is a new type of test where its credibility is vulnerable to scrutiny of its process.

Dutchrudder said:
I've read that Cushing is the only NFL player to be suspended for elevated HCG levels, so the precedent would only effect any players suspended for HCG. I don't think it's unreasonable to forgive this suspension and then bolster the way HCG is tested to make the test as reliable as the others used to detect PEDs.
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Exactly.
 
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