Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I agree wholeheartedly with your overall point in this post. Doctors get paid to "practice" medicine.......& that they do.
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McNair to NFL: Overturn Cushing suspension
- Thread starter Pollardized
- Start date
I agree wholeheartedly with your overall point in this post. Doctors get paid to "practice" medicine.......& that they do.
Showtime100
Got JJ?
Really good insight PN. I know this is a subject you are close to and hearing your opinions on the matter are always interesting reading.
The bolded part is great...lol. I guess I need to rethink what I call my beer holder, dishwasher, coffee maker.............
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
But still, the way I'd define overtraining would be, hitting a plateau, physically and emotionally drained, possible weight loss and even stomach and bowel disruption. Obviously, a simplified definition, but Cushing never appeared to suffer any of the more obvious symptoms of overtraining. Which we would've likely seen on the field.
I'd like to see the evidence too. My bet is it doesn't have much to do with this overtraining mumbo-jumbo
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
If you're chronically overtrained, then yeah, those are the symptoms you get. But what some of the current regimens do is they take you to the brink of overtraining and then back off. So you don't show any overt symptoms, yet. Then when you deload your routine, you get (supposedly, at least) a hormone spike and increased recovery.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
HCG can be used to stimulate testosterone production by the testes to counteract a "small package." But a "small package" does not produce an increase in HCG to counteract that "small package."
Number19
Hall of Fame
Come on...don't you realize that Cushing has had legal advice as well as the medical testing. If there is any remote chance that this will end up in a courtroom, any lawyer is going to advise that you don't talk.
In his first major interview, back a few days ago now, Cushing made some kind of broad statement about the OAS, and then made the statement : "...that was all he could say for now".
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
I specifically remember that and I did think it was a little odd at the time. I never looked at it from a "taking it to court" angle. Makes sense.
His legal counsel would have advised him to keep his mouth shut months ago.
I would be very surprised if there is any legal action against the NFL by an individual player or franchise regarding this case.
Until then, the weight of the medical and scientific community is solidly against his current excuse/reason. I would dig nothing more than to see credible evidence and/or research that supports his claim in any capacity.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
No doubt , I would love an expert say look at his ___ he didn't do it . Heck ... I would like Barry Bonds to say hmmm ... nope .
If he hires a lawyer , at least he doesn't have a wife and kids to get drug through the mud .
That is just it. No one is going to believe him until he makes his "new evidence" public. And many won't then, even if it's credible. Just chaps me that people are still saying he took it to mask steroids.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Doesn't surprise me. McGobbler is clueless
Number19
Hall of Fame
I posed a question back at #263 that didn't get a bite. I, for one, don't think Cushing is stupid.
Cushing's first publicly revealed test indicating elevated levels of hCG was back in September, when only one of the two samples exceeded the allowable level.
According to all the suspicion, Cushing then disregarded the warning from the league, and the warning that this might indicate he had problems with a tumor, and continued to take the banned substance until testing positive with both samples in November.
You talk about implausible, this definitely fits the bill. Why anyone would believe this is beyond my comprehension.
Cushing's first publicly revealed test indicating elevated levels of hCG was back in September, when only one of the two samples exceeded the allowable level.
According to all the suspicion, Cushing then disregarded the warning from the league, and the warning that this might indicate he had problems with a tumor, and continued to take the banned substance until testing positive with both samples in November.
You talk about implausible, this definitely fits the bill. Why anyone would believe this is beyond my comprehension.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
We don't know when Cush was informed of the "almost" positive. Normally, guys aren't notified of their results unless they fail.
So, he could have been taking something not realizing that it was raising his hCG levels.
Although, I've been fairly adamant in defending the possibility that Cush is innocent, I've frequently stated that I think that Cush was taking some new cutting edge performance enhancing drug (that's probably legal and hasn't been banned because no one knows about it) and didn't know that it would have a side effect of rasing his hCG. He didn't realize that his hCG levels were going up (or possibly thought they would only go up to high but not "fail" levels) until he was notified that he'd failed the test. I think he stopped taking the drug then and his hCG level went down... or he possibly is still taking the drug, just less of it, which is keeping his hCG level somewhat boosted so that it looks like it's a natural condition of some sort. If that's the case, then when he says he didn't take hCG, he's basically telling the truth because he didn't take hCG directly; it was just an unintended/unexpected side effect.
But there's no proof of any of that. That's just what I believe is going on.
Barring some weird new drug, I don't see any reason for Cush to have been taking hCG in the first place. That doesn't make any sense to me.
Señor Stan
El Guapo
Number19
Hall of Fame
Good response with good reasoning. Some of this was the first things I thought, but then I remembered Cushing saying he was playing the season while worried about the possibility of having a tumor problem. He surely had begun his medical evaluations during this period.
Back last January I began having, what was suspected, a prescription drug interaction problem. The first thing the doctor wanted to know was EVERYTHING I was ingesting into my body and had me quit everything except my two blood pressure medications. I was told my body would begin to cleanse itself of the vitamins and drugs within about two weeks.
The only facts I know are what I get from this board, the Houston Chronicle and the radio. Not many have anything more; and knowing what we do know, I find it hard to understand why so many have doubts.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The NFL protocol calls for notification after the A sample fails because the player is allowed to have a representative witness the testing of the B sample so sometime in September Cushing was notified the A sample was positive.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
So, he got the notification of the almost fail. Then got the notification of the full fail.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I'll hazard a guess - to kickstart his system after a cycle. I know, I know ... no player would be dumb enough to use old technology, blahdeblahdeblah. Occam's Razor.
All very plausible, man, and I respect your opinion about it.
However, if this is the case, then he's lying through his teeth about potential tumors and obviously 'overtrained athlete syndrome'.
If he was taking a cutting-edge supplement that had a negative side effect of raising his hCG, then he just needs to fess up and take his suspension like a man. It would certainly make sense and save his credibility among the general public and media, if all that matters to him in any regard.
There you go again DB, making sense out of things ......
eriadoc
Texan-American
You know, there might be another explanation. Wasn't there a female athlete sort of recently that tested for too much testosterone, but in the end it turned out she was a he? Or something similar?
Ehh, I don't know. I'm just trying to stretch my arms out as much as some of y'all.
Ehh, I don't know. I'm just trying to stretch my arms out as much as some of y'all.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
IIRC, it was the NFL that mentioned tumors. Supposedly, when he failed they told him to get checked out immediately due to the possibility of tumors.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Then he should have tested positive for steroids.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
That's a possibility. I mean, it's not like someone hasn't ever taken PEDs and then lied like hell about it.
But... it's also possible that he's not.
There aren't very many things worse than telling the truth and no one believing you.
Not if it had been long enough since he "cycled". A new high-tech masking agent or new "balm to make your ba**s grow" would be just as likely.
True, but the chance that he's that 1 in 100,000 exception to the established testing is a helluva lot more likely.
ahh, that's right. I just remembered his press conference when he talked about it, but the origin of the tumor story was that he was told that the only way for his hCG to be elevated was "through injection or a tumor".
Very true, and his position has been consistent with that of a man trying to prove his innocence in the face of massive public doubt. Of course, we've seen other athletes do the same, so it's made us somewhat jaded in that regard.
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infantrycak
Hall of Fame
He would have been notified in September when the A sample was positive. Then the B test was negative so overall the test was considered negative. Then when he was tested the second time he would have again have been notified the A sample was positive so he could have a representative. That B sample came back positive so it was a positive test resulting in the suspension. What's interesting is there was a report that not only he but someone with the Texans was "warned" which has never been fully explored by the press. Did Brian go talk to someone in strength in conditioning, the doctor or was that just errant information? We have a new strength coach now who was hired shortly after this broke.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
No.
You don't wait between stopping your cycle and when you start using hCG or Clomid or something to get your natural testosterone going. You start it up immediately after or even as you're ramping the testosterone down. That just doesn't jibe with the time frame of the first almost positive and then the second definitely positive test.
I mean, I guess it would be possible to test positive for hCG and not steroids if they caught you at the very tail end of your hCG cycle. But then your hCG would tail off, not ramp back up. Your most POSITIVE test would have been the first test, not the second.
If they caught you right as you began your hCG cycle (which is when your hCG should be the highest, I think), then you'd test positive for both steroids and hCG. If they caught you at the tail end of your hCG cycle, you might not test positive for steroids but you could test positive for hCG. But like I said, if they took two tests at the tail end of that hCG cycle, the level would decrease over time.
At least, that's what would make sense to me.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
That's what I'm saying. In September, he got the almost fail. Then later, he got tested again and got a full fail.
IIRC, that report said that Ray Wright got informed about it or Brian talked to him about it or something. At the time, it sounded like Brian was taking something that Ray had suggested that he take.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
That's how I recall the report as well. Cloak and I were talking about that yesterday. I don't know if it was bad reporting initially or no follow up. Now Cloak did say there really isn't any evidence of oral ingestion of hcg passing through to a urine test.
eriadoc
Texan-American
TEXANRED
Texan-American
Should we really care if an athlete takes a performance enhancer? And if they do care tell me why should I?
All of the weight training, special diets, biking, running, yoga, mountain climbing, and whatever other activity they do is all a performance enhancer.
I think it should be the athletes choice if they take or not. Its been proven the guys who do have short careers. Look at the Boz, or David Boston.
If we want a pure league then we would pick up guys off the street and slap a jersey on them and tell them to go play.
But who the hell wants to watch that?
All of the weight training, special diets, biking, running, yoga, mountain climbing, and whatever other activity they do is all a performance enhancer.
I think it should be the athletes choice if they take or not. Its been proven the guys who do have short careers. Look at the Boz, or David Boston.
If we want a pure league then we would pick up guys off the street and slap a jersey on them and tell them to go play.
But who the hell wants to watch that?
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Really? You are asking why we should care if a player is performing because he is cheating. Of course we should care.
It is perfectly reasonable to argue that these enhancers should be legal. However, until they are, then how could you not care that some players are gaining an unfair advantage? Don't you care when the opposing team gets away with holding or pass interference?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
It's really weird. I'm one of those guys who's a real stickler about cheating. I hate guys who do "anything" to win: the people who try to give hand signals across the table when they're playing cads and stuff like that. If I happen to see someone's cards, I tell them what I saw.
But I feel absolutely nothing about athletes taking drugs to improve their performance. Even though I compete in PL tournaments (in drug-free associations), if someone else is taking drugs... I really don't care. If a football player is taking drugs to improve their performance, I really don't care. I probably should but to be perfectly honest, I don't.
For a long time, you could have taken steroids or some other performance enhancing drug and it would have been perfectly legal and above board. Anabolic Steroids weren't made a Schedule III illegal drug until 1993. There are still "legal" ways to take steroids although if you're an athlete, you will get popped for having them in your system.
If you're wanting to be intellectually consistent about performance enhancement, then you've got to ban painkillers and anti-inflammatories, too. There's nothing more performance enhancing than being able to take a drug that allows you to play when you couldn't otherwise play.
Because of the demonization of steroids and the black market that's been created, you've got a bunch of ignorant athletes in high school and college (and even the pros, probably) who hide that they're doing legal supplements like creatine because they think that they're steroids... and then you've got guys taking things that they shouldn't be taking, things that can kill an injure them without giving them any performance enhancement, because they read somewhere or heard somewhere that such and such compound is some sort of athletic panacea. Not to mention the guys that get stuff black market that may or may not be steroids at all.
A few years ago, lots of bodybuilders started experimenting with taking a type of rat poison because it boosts your metabolism and causes you to burn a ton of fat. The problem is that the dose that you're taking has to be extremely precise. A little too little and it doesn't do anything; a little too much and it kills you. And the thing about athletes and the athletic mind set is that they're fine with running that risk.
So, personally, I think performance enhancing drugs should be legal under doctor's supervision and I believe that the long term effects should be studied. I think that a more open environment would allow us to develop some drugs that could benefit a lot of people and give us better and healthier athletes.
But, that's just me.
BillytheKid
Practice Squad
Cush didn`t use steroids as pro sports currently defines them. Additionally the selective enforcement that the NFL practices is hypocritical, either implement consistant, across the board enforcement or shut the hell up.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Damn. I remembered it as '93. Getting old sux.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
EXACTLY! Don't you guys watch "House, M.D.?"
He ONLY deals with cases that are, to quote Brian Cushing,
"beyond the regular medical doctor."
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I can't even defend myself by saying I was confusing it with the DHSEA supplement law because that was '94.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Yeah, but keep thinking about the alternative.
I wonder how many here realize that injectable HCG is also classified a Class III drug.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
For those that may be interested:
Although this review of the chronological History of Anabolic Steroid Drug Classification and Related Law re. possession and distribution downplays the support of the medical community to classify them as Schedule III, this fact must be qualified. The medical community then, and increasingly so since, has shared a great concern over the long term significant consequences of anabolic steroids. However, there has always been a reluctance by physicians to attach criminality to such use........something that by its Schedule III classification by both federal and state statutes, is automatically assigned.
Although this review of the chronological History of Anabolic Steroid Drug Classification and Related Law re. possession and distribution downplays the support of the medical community to classify them as Schedule III, this fact must be qualified. The medical community then, and increasingly so since, has shared a great concern over the long term significant consequences of anabolic steroids. However, there has always been a reluctance by physicians to attach criminality to such use........something that by its Schedule III classification by both federal and state statutes, is automatically assigned.
C Madd
Waterboy
If anyone is wondering or confused about the schedule talk, schedules are classifications (I through V) of controlled substances based on potential for abuse and accepted medical use in the US. For example, Schedule I narcotics are crack, meth, heroin. Schedule II are drugs like adderall, oxycodone, morphine and III contains Vicodin. The higher the risk of abuse, the lower the schedule number.
The definition of anabolic steroid was changed in 2004. That year they removed the requirement to prove muscle growth.
The definition of anabolic steroid was changed in 2004. That year they removed the requirement to prove muscle growth.