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Manziel

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This leadership thing sounds so much like Tebow it's scary.

I know a lot of you guys pushing for Manziel are Aggies (I know some aren't) and I think it's great that you're supporting your guy. But you sound exactly like the Texas fans when Vince came out and the SEC fans when Tebow came out.

I'm not saying Manziel is the same player as those two. I think he's better. But all of this talk is just so familiar. All of this "IT", "leader", and "competitor" stuff is great but it's not what counts. That stuff can make a good player great, and it can make a great player a legend, but it has nothing to do with the fundamental questions about Manziel's ability to transition his game to the NFL. Hundreds of guys with those three qualities never made it.

Teams who value "IT" and "leadership" on the same level as athleticism and football IQ end up picking a lot of busts. Those sort of things are tie breakers for when you have multiple prospects with similar grades and need something to put one above the others.

Mark Sanchez had "IT" and "leadership" going into the draft despite not being that impressive on film. Talking heads couldn't say enough about how if Sanchez and the other QBs were riding in a car, Sanchez would be driving because he oozed "IT" all over your face.

Nobody gets by on "IT" except super models and politicians.
 
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Understood. & I don't have problem with Manziel reverting to his habits from time to time. I'm just saying it would be irresponsible to throw in planned runs, or even zone reads (where there's a greater than 50% chance he's going to run past the LOS).

I like his ability to extend plays, find open receivers, & throw accurately on the move. Every QB should be a threat to cross the LOS, but he shouldn't do so with regularity.
 
Understood. & I don't have problem with Manziel reverting to his habits from time to time. I'm just saying it would be irresponsible to throw in planned runs, or even zone reads (where there's a greater than 50% chance he's going to run past the LOS).

I like his ability to extend plays, find open receivers, & throw accurately on the move. Every QB should be a threat to cross the LOS, but he shouldn't do so with regularity.


I agree with what you've said. I just feel that in the NFL, Manziel, despite constant coaching to the otherwise, will more likely easily revert to his old habits.........yes, resulting in extended plays........but not in extended positive results. As opposed to college, with him facing NFL size and speed D players every single week.......every single play...........this is not to even mention how familiar I expect he will become with extended rehab.
 
I agree with what you've said. I just feel that in the NFL, Manziel, despite constant coaching to the otherwise, will more likely easily revert to his old habits.........yes, resulting in extended plays........but not in extended positive results. As opposed to college, with him facing NFL size and speed D players every single week.......every single play...........this is not to even mention how familiar I expect he will become with extended rehab.

Sounds Like Romo???
 
Sounds Like Romo???

If he could be more disciplined in the pocket and make better decisions with the ball I think he could be very similar to Romo.

Manziel may very well be electric, but I don't think people realize how many turnovers he is going to create if he doesn't learn to tone it down.
 
I agree with what you've said. I just feel that in the NFL, Manziel, despite constant coaching to the otherwise, will more likely easily revert to his old habits.........yes, resulting in extended plays........but not in extended positive results. As opposed to college, with him facing NFL size and speed D players every single week.......every single play...........this is not to even mention how familiar I expect he will become with extended rehab.

Understood. But I remember them saying the same thing all the way back to McNabb.

"Cam's not going to be able to run roughshod over the competition in the NFL."

But he did.

"Vince won't be able to run like that in the NFL."

But he did.

"There is no way Vick is going to be able to that in the NFL."

But he did.

"McNabb isn't going to be able to run like that against the bigger, faster, stronger NFL."

But he did.

And with guys like Vince & Cam... they don't get hit. Unless they wanted to (in Cam's case).
 
Understood. But I remember them saying the same thing all the way back to McNabb.

"Cam's not going to be able to run roughshod over the competition in the NFL."

But he did.

"Vince won't be able to run like that in the NFL."

But he did.

"There is no way Vick is going to be able to that in the NFL."

But he did.

"McNabb isn't going to be able to run like that against the bigger, faster, stronger NFL."

But he did.

And with guys like Vince & Cam... they don't get hit. Unless they wanted to (in Cam's case).
Remind me again of how many Super Bowl :trophy: these guys have hoisted? :kitten:

I wouldn't put VY, Cam or Vick in the same category as McNabb. McNabb was a much better all around QB, imho. Cam might catch him, but it's too early to say.
 
Remind me again of how many Super Bowl :trophy: these guys have hoisted? :kitten:

I wouldn't put VY, Cam or Vick in the same category as McNabb. McNabb was a much better all around QB, imho. Cam might catch him, but it's too early to say.

How many did Stafford or Bradford win?

That's not the point or the point of the argument. This particular conversation is about their ability to make plays with there legs, specifically how it was said they wouldn't be able to do it in the NFL.
 
Understood. But I remember them saying the same thing all the way back to McNabb.

"Cam's not going to be able to run roughshod over the competition in the NFL."

But he did.

"Vince won't be able to run like that in the NFL."

But he did.

"There is no way Vick is going to be able to that in the NFL."

But he did.

"McNabb isn't going to be able to run like that against the bigger, faster, stronger NFL."

But he did.

And with guys like Vince & Cam... they don't get hit. Unless they wanted to (in Cam's case).

All those players you've listed, except for Vick, are mountain size men compared to Manziel. And when Vick could play, he continually played while fighting injuries. Prison gave his body a pleasant break......for a while.
 
All those players you've listed, except for Vick, are mountain size men compared to Manziel. And when Vick could play, he continually played while fighting injuries. Prison gave his body a pleasant break......for a while.

Vick has always been miscast as a WCO QB. A WCO QB he's not. Unfortunately Vick's time was 10 years to soon, before the read option.
 
All those players you've listed, except for Vick, are mountain size men compared to Manziel. And when Vick could play, he continually played while fighting injuries. Prison gave his body a pleasant break......for a while.

Doesn't change the fact. A lot of times these guys come out of college with this style of playing & we think, "They can't do it in the NFL" & they do. Cam & Vince, & Kaepernick (actually) do it & they're not touched if they don't want to be touch (I add that because Cam tends to initiate contact from time to time).

I'm not saying Manziel will be able to run roughshod over the NFL, I doubt it myself. But I've been surprised before.
 
How many did Stafford or Bradford win?

That's not the point or the point of the argument. This particular conversation is about their ability to make plays with there legs, specifically how it was said they wouldn't be able to do it in the NFL.
Hence the :kitten:

I wouldn't dare say that VY or Vick have ever been elite QB's. More like flashes in the pan. The jury is still out on Kap and Cam. Last season made Kap look a lot closer to a flash in the pan than the long term answer in SF.

Cam's stats have him as kind of middle of the road. My jury is still out on him. He might develope into a great QB if he can get some talent around him and the right system.

I'm pretty excited to see how Stafford does with Golden Tate joining the team. This could be a career year for him. He really needs to cut down on the turnovers, though.
 
I wouldn't dare say that VY or Vick have ever been elite QB's. More like flashes in the pan. The jury is still out on Kap and Cam. Last season made Kap look a lot closer to a flash in the pan than the long term answer in SF.

Cam's stats have him as kind of middle of the road. My jury is still out on him. He might develope into a great QB if he can get some talent around him and the right system.

Fair. I can't argue with any of that. I'll add if anyone thought JFF was an elite prospect, they'd be banging the table to take him at 1-1. I don't think he's an elite prospect, I'm not even suggesting we take him at 1-1.

What I will say about the guys mentioned, is that their ability to move the chains helped their team win games. Winning games, imo, is the only way to buy these guys time to develop. & that goes for any prospect, whether he's a straight up drop back passer, or the once in a generation prototypical NFL QB.

I don't care if we do draft Manziel, but if we do & they put him on the field, we better win. If we ever stop winning with him taking snaps, we need to replace him. If he can't stay on the field because of his college football JFF antics, we need to replace him.
 
In your opinions, who is the best passer out of Manziel, Kap, Vick, Cam, Tebow, or VY?


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In your opinions, who is the best passer out of Manziel, Kap, Vick, Cam, Tebow, or VY?


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At the college level:
Manziel
Cam
Tebow
Kap
Vick
VY

At the NFL level:
Cam
Vick
Kap
Tebow
VY

Very hard to choose between Tebow and VY at the bottom of this list.
 
In your opinions, who is the best passer out of Manziel, Kap, Vick, Cam, Tebow, or VY?


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One thing about those guys, the "support" or "hype" about VY & Tebow was extremely localized.

People all over the country were hyping Vick & Cam.

Nobody knew Kaepernick.
 
One thing about those guys, the "support" or "hype" about VY & Tebow was extremely localized.

People all over the country were hyping Vick & Cam.

Nobody knew Kaepernick.
Tebow hype was extremely localized? Are you talking about his playing ability at the NFL level or what? Everything about Tebow was a national media circus before he ever got drafted. Very similar to JFF...
 
Tebow hype was extremely localized? Are you talking about his playing ability at the NFL level or what? Everything about Tebow was a national media circus before he ever got drafted. Very similar to JFF...

Bingo! ESPN had Tebow on 24 hr hype. Tebow has a high ratings quotient and ESPN was getting every nickle they could out of Tebow hype.
 
I meant the hype to draft him in the first round.

You didn't see Cleveland "falling in love" with Vince or Tebow. The only people talking about drafting him in the first round were people from Texas & Florida respectively.

I've seen St. Louis, Oakland, & Cleveland mocked to take Manziel in the first. I don't remember seeing a single mock with Tebow going in the first round to anyone other than Jacksonville.
 
I meant the hype to draft him in the first round.

You didn't see Cleveland "falling in love" with Vince or Tebow. The only people talking about drafting him in the first round were people from Texas & Florida respectively.

I've seen St. Louis, Oakland, & Cleveland mocked to take Manziel in the first. I don't remember seeing a single mock with Tebow going in the first round to anyone other than Jacksonville.
I haven't gone back to look at any of the mocks when Tebow was drafted, but there was 24 hr. Tebow mania and much speculation about whether or not he would be willing to change positions. He'd make one heck of a 'tweener like James Casey was for the Texans.

No one doubts that JFF has the tools and intangibles to be a great NFL QB. Not very many thought that about Tebow, but they did think he could be good to great at a different position.

You are correct on VY, imo, though. He's homegrown and went to UT. Besides, I think Reggie Bush kept a lot of the VY thing from being a bigger media hype than it was.
 
I don't remember a single mock that didn't have Vince Young going among the top 10 picks in 2006. Oakland was very likely take him if he slipped that year IIRC, and there was speculation he'd go to the Bills or (obviously) the Titans.
 
Johnny Manziel is the enigma of NFL draft quarterbacks
"I would love to draft him, because of any player in the draft, he will do more for a team than anybody because of his position and the energy he brings to it," longtime NFL personnel executive Jerry Angelo, the former Chicago Bears general manager, told USA TODAY Sports.

"Unfortunately, that offense is the antithesis of what teams are doing and he is obviously a very nonconventional NFL quarterback. You have to ask yourself, who does he remind me of? There's got to be prototypes. Really, there's nobody."

"For me, it's not oversimplifying it (to say) if I took him, I would take his offensive coordinator and I would make him my offensive coordinator," Angelo said. "I don't want to reinvent him and try to make him something that I think he can be."

"One thing about Manziel: He's ready to play," Angelo said. "His game is not going to change. It's, what are you going to ask him to do?"
"He's the wild card," another longtime NFL personnel man said on condition of anonymity for competitive reasons. "He's just got to be (with) the right coach, right scheme. You don't want to bottle him up, but you also have to discipline him, and he's got to buy into what you're doing."

"Now, will some of the physical traits catch up with him?" the NFC scout said. "Maybe, when you talk about the size and their offense and how some of it was kind of chucking it up to one of the best receivers in the country (Mike Evans) and letting him go make a play."
 
We also know that the Houston Texans aren't considering Manziel with the first selection.
http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftrumormill.php

One of the quarterback-needy teams picking in the top 10 told us they have a second-round grade on Manziel...

Four sources with other teams told us that they have a first-round grades on Manziel. Two of those teams said they have Manziel in the top 20 on their big boards. One general manager said he is confident that Manziel won't be available in the second round, and someone is going to pull the trigger on him in the first.
 

Interesting that he said he would hire Manziel's OC and we do not have one...

Current A&M OC:

"Spavital has risen up the ranks quickly since beginning his college coaching career in 2008 at Tulsa under Bill Blankenship and with then-offensive coordinator Gus Malzahn. He joined Sumlin's staff as a graduate assistant at Houston in 2009, before following Holgorsen to Oklahoma State and then West Virginia. He has worked with a number of highly productive quarterbacks in the style of offense that Texas A&M uses, including Case Keenum at Houston, Brandon Weeden at Oklahoma State, Geno Smith at West Virginia, and Johnny Manziel this season at Texas A&M." http://espn.go.com/college-football...gies-name-jake-spavital-offensive-coordinator
 
Jon Machota ‏@jonmachota
Stephen Jones not saying much about Johnny Manziel b/c, "We haven't quite gotten into sorting out the (QBs) yet." http://share.d-news.co/8KgRgDg

.@JC1053 asks: If Manziel is there, do you take him? Stephen Jones: "Those are all things that we'll have to work out. Purely speculation."

Been thinking about this for a while, and I think this has legs. Textbook Jerruh move, and he's been wayyy too quiet pre-draft.

In Jerruh's eyes, getting Manziel would make people forget about his 2013 draft flub. And Romo is 34 with two back surgeries.

Question will be how high does he need to go to get JFF?
 
Jon Machota ‏@jonmachota


Been thinking about this for a while, and I think this has legs. Textbook Jerruh move, and he's been wayyy too quiet pre-draft.

In Jerruh's eyes, getting Manziel would make people forget about his 2013 draft flub. And Romo is 34 with two back surgeries.

Question will be how high does he need to go to get JFF?

Right now, I don't think Manziel gets past Jags @ #3 or Cleveland @ #4. I'm not sure anyone can sell more Jags season tickets than Johnny Football,
 
Jon Machota ‏@jonmachota


Been thinking about this for a while, and I think this has legs. Textbook Jerruh move, and he's been wayyy too quiet pre-draft.

In Jerruh's eyes, getting Manziel would make people forget about his 2013 draft flub. And Romo is 34 with two back surgeries.

Question will be how high does he need to go to get JFF?

I believe that the $ implications and draft implications (including cap hits) of a Romo plus Manziel would be tough for even Jerruh to manipulate.

Spotrac's info on Romo (don't overlook the asterisk fine print points at the bottom.
 
I believe that the $ implications and draft implications (including cap hits) of a Romo plus Manziel would be tough for even Jerruh to manipulate.

Spotrac's info on Romo (don't overlook the asterisk fine print points at the bottom.

Cut Romo next year... I don't think he cares... he'll make it up in sales. I guarantee the self-centered Jerruh sees himself in Manziel -- his alter ego. Would make Cowboys relevant again, maybe make people forget about Jimmy. Make it happen, Jerruh!!! :roast:
 
Cut Romo next year... I don't think he cares... he'll make it up in sales. I guarantee the self-centered Jerruh sees himself in Manziel -- his alter ego. Would make Cowboys relevant again, maybe make people forget about Jimmy. Make it happen, Jerruh!!! :roast:

Two Jerruh's on the same team.......priceless! A universally undisciplined organization.......sounds great to me!:)
 
How Manziel draft drama could unfold
...
“So if he gets past four he could fall to 13 to St. Louis. I’m not saying St. Louis would take him at 13, but it’s a possibility. He’s on their radar and there are people in that organization who really like him. He’s the most polarizing player in this draft. If he gets past four it’s going to be the all-time drama. Where he’s going to go, who is trying to trade up? It’s going to make for an unbelievable scene if he’s on the board at five, but there’s a decent likelihood he goes four to Cleveland.”

Chris Mortensen ‏@mortreport
Rams will work out a trio Texas A&M players, including Johnny Manziel, Jake Matthews & Mike Evans. Rams have 2 & 13 picks in 1st rd.

Adam Caplan ‏@caplannfl
Believe before this week ends.
 
The case for taking Manziel


Insider Content
One player in the 2014 NFL draft has the power to instantly transform an irrelevant franchise into a compelling one. Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel stands alone in that regard. He's the X factor in the top 10 selections, the player hard-core football people see "moving the needle" enough for a team owner to pressure his decision-makers into selecting Manziel with an early choice.

"It will be hard for some owners to not push," one general manager predicted.

"There are a couple of teams with the owner very much in play," a veteran agent said.

The Cleveland Browns and Oakland Raiders are two of those teams, and with Manziel, an owner might not need to push very hard, if at all, because the talent is obvious enough for some evaluators to fall in love with Manziel on their own. The case for drafting Manziel applies beyond Cleveland and Oakland, reaching teams with established and semi-established starters already in place. We'll take a harder look at those teams here. It's the most topical subject in the NFL, not just in the media but inside the league as well.


We should begin with the Houston Texans, because they have the first pick and their current quarterbacks, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Case Keenum, probably aren't long-term answers. For Houston, selecting Manziel over South Carolina defensive end Jadeveon Clowney would energize a Texans franchise that already possesses one of the game's most dominant defensive linemen. However, the feeling from nearly one month ago hasn't changed. The Texans will draft a quarterback, the pro thinking goes, but probably not Manziel and probably not with the first choice.

There's little reason to think the St. Louis Rams would use the second pick for a quarterback when they have obvious needs elsewhere and appear committed to Sam Bradford for this coming season. They'll draft a quarterback, most likely, but not with one of the two first-round picks in their possession. Taking a quarterback early would not make them better for 2014 in a hyper-competitive NFC West.

The teams picking third through fifth in the order -- the Jacksonville Jaguars, Cleveland and Oakland -- need long-term solutions at quarterback. These are largely faceless franchises. They are not particularly marketable. Their owners are unestablished, which makes them less predictable. The Jaguars are the most stable operation of the three. League insiders put them into the "maybe" category when it comes to Manziel, with most thinking Jacksonville will go in another direction at No. 3.​

The case for the Cleveland Browns ...the Browns could use the energy Manziel would infuse into their organization.

The case for the Oakland Raiders The Raiders ranked last among NFL teams in attendance last season. Their stadium situation is a mess relative to the ones successful franchises enjoy. "The owner needs to sell tickets," the agent said. "Manziel would sell tickets."

The case for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers ...The feeling here is that coach Lovie Smith would rather have a steady veteran presence at quarterback than a volatile youngster like Manziel.

The case for the Minnesota Vikings ...Blake Bortles or another more traditional quarterback could fit better if the Vikings decide to select one with the eighth overall choice.

The case for the Buffalo Bills ...the Bills aren't likely to draft a quarterback with the ninth overall pick.

The case for the Tennessee Titans ...a wide range of people in the league I've spoken with said they could see it as a possibility, albeit a longer shot.

The case for the Dallas Cowboys ...One particularly cynical line of thinking says Jones paid more than he needed to for Romo and was making a statement when he did so, and now he'll want to prove he was right by sticking with Romo.

The case for the New York Jets "You never know with the Jets," the agent said. "The owner, Woody Johnson, could get involved there, too."

The case for the Philadelphia Eagles Kelly recruited Manziel to Oregon (he verbally committed to the Ducks before ultimately choosing the Aggies), and he made some glowing comments about him recently. How could he not like Manziel for his offense? The fit would be perfect.

The case for the Cincinnati Bengals I suspect Manziel would be out of their comfort level and off the board well before Cincy seriously considers drafting for the position.

The case for the New England Patriots Manziel would be the ultimate project for coach Bill Belichick, who has done things his way.

 
Everyone I could see on that list except the Eagles. I thought Foles last year proved to be one of the best young QBs in the NFL.

I thought the same thing. This is the full quote:
Nick Foles went 8-2 as a starter last season with 24 touchdowns, two interceptions and a 67.4 Total QBR score in those games. That makes him untouchable, right? Not really. Coach Chip Kelly inherited Foles and fared much better than expected with him, but the QB coach referenced above thought the Eagles got above-average play from a below-average quarterback. The point is simply to avoid overreacting to one good partial season. Kelly recruited Manziel to Oregon (he verbally committed to the Ducks before ultimately choosing the Aggies), and he made some glowing comments about him recently. How could he not like Manziel for his offense? The fit would be perfect.
 
More fuel for that fire.

There’s a rumor (apparently faulty) making the rounds about the Eagles moving up to try to get Johnny Manziel. I wouldn’t pass it along if the person who told me wasn’t smart and, to this point, reliable. But I just can’t see it, and I have someone who would know better than the rumor source telling me it absolutely won’t happen. Which seems smart to me, seeing that Nick Foles’ 27 touchdowns and two interceptions and 119.2 passer rating would be pretty damned foolish to throw out the window for Manziel. I just put it out there as an example of the kind of stuff that makes the rounds when so much of what happens at this time of year is designed to be a misdirection play. As Bills GM Doug Whaley said Friday, speaking to western New York reporters: “It’s finally one time where we can use you guys [reporters] to our advantage. There are things that you put out there to see if someone bites, and there are some things you put out there that are true. You have people read between the lines and you don’t want to show your hand. I’m sure everyone is doing the same thing.’’
 
MMQB: Would You Trust Your Offense to Him?

The biggest question of this draft concerns the biggest personality in it: Johnny Manziel. The MMQB sat down with five experts steeped in the quarterbacking business—David Cutcliffe, Mike Holmgren, Doug Flutie, Kevin Gilbride and Rich Gannon—to watch tape and judge how, or if, his talents will translate to the NFL
DURHAM, N.C.—“He’s got great balance. How good is that throw? I mean, how good is that throw?” says Duke coach David Cutcliffe, watching Johnny Manziel video in his office.

RENTON, Wash.—“He’s all arm. He throws a lot of passes that way,” says former Brett Favre tutor Mike Holmgren, watching Manziel video near his Seattle home.

MELBOURNE BEACH, Fla.—“He can make every throw, and I don’t know every NFL offense from top to bottom, but just put him in the shotgun and spread the field out and let him play. You’ve got to find a way to let him play. He would be perfect for Chip Kelly,” says Doug Flutie, who was Manziel before there was a Manziel, watching Manziel video in his home hard by the Atlantic Ocean.

SOUTH KINGSTOWN, R.I.—“His mechanics are awful. It’s hard not to be influenced by the things you’ve heard, that the problem is lack of discipline. That manifests itself off the field and in the way he plays. Even just carrying out fakes—it’s just like, ‘Ah, screw it.’ Those guys don’t make it usually. But he’s athletic enough and talented enough that if he works, he can make it,” says longtime NFL offensive coach Kevin Gilbride, who retired after last season, watching Manziel video in his home a few long spirals from the New England coast.

EDEN PRAIRIE, Minn.—“The kid’s got the balls of a burglar,” says 2002 NFL MVP Rich Gannon, waching Manziel video near his Twin Cities home.

We came, we watched, we dissected. In the past month I watched coaches video of Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel with five of the smartest quarterback people I know. Specifically, we watched two games from 2013: Manziel’s two-man show (with wideout Mike Evans) in a thrilling narrow loss to Alabama, and Manziel’s s struggles to cope with a disciplined defensive front in a decisive loss to LSU...

Pretty good stuff in here from guys more courageous than "anonymous scout".
 
I thought the same thing. This is the full quote:


27 TDs to 2 INTs in any instance is much better than above average. That would be fun to see and if they do make that trade, we should get on the phone and make a trade for Nick Foles ASAP.
 
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