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Manziel
- Thread starter Wolf
- Start date
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Every player in this draft is a prospect.
If you select JFF or JaDaveon Clowney, Teddy Bridgewater or Khalil Mack, you have to trust your ability to develop that player. Thousands upon thousands of talented prospects have been in & out of the NFL, hundreds were considered "can't miss" prospects.
If I were looking for a QB, I would not have one problem taking Johnny Manziel & I would not have one concern about not being able to mold him into an NFL QB.
At the same time, I believe I could mold several QBs in this draft into quality NFL starters. & I believe who drafts them is more important than when they are drafted.
drs23
Veteran
HJam72
Hall of Fame
drs23
Veteran
When McNair starts signing a check for you, check back. Until then I'm seeing a new "to me" Manzielot aggie sniffer. JMHO, of course.
Only time will tell and if proven to be wrong, I'll be the first to fire up the pit to burn the crow.
badboy
Hall of Fame
check back with me in 10-15 years. Oh BTW are you saying there is a HOF'er in first round? That is excitingBut I bet you would be perfectly happy if the Texans draft a 1st ballot HOF'er at 1.1 Thursday night!!
And no trades in this mock!!!
I think it was DB that said this draft reminded him of Bowie/Jordan in the '84 NBA draft. so I was just piggybacking off of that thought. The Rams could get Bowie with 1.2, the Jags Jordan at 1.3, and the Texans get Olojuwon at 1.1 and I'd be perfectly happy with that. I loved watching Dream and the Texans could do a LOT worse in this draft than getting a player of that caliber.
I'm in no way, shape or form saying there's a HOF'er in the 1st round.Check back with me in 10-15 years!!!
Texian
Hall of Fame
If BOB has FINAL say on 53 man roster in his contract, as I truly expect is the case, McNair pretty much has to defer to his HC. I can't imagine McNair would override his new HC with the first BIG decision for the new coach and violate the contract agreement from the get go.
I agree with this. If it was going to happen, it would've happen in '06 and VY would've been a Texan, imo. McNair is involved, but seems to let his people do their job with minimal interference. Reed being the flier in this...I think that was all McNair.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Vince Young made us pay for not taking him. I still don't wish we had.
Just a thought. I'm not really against Manziel.
I never wanted VY( but I liked him over Bush). And he didn't make us pay for nearly long enough to worry about. Freaking head case. I hope he has it together now, though. Kind of a sad story.
I'm all over the place with Manziel. I can talk myself into picking him or out of it every 5 minutes. The dude is a total enigma to me at the top of this draft. If he's there at 1.11 or later, I roll the dice and take him. Top 10, he makes me nervous.
Texian
Hall of Fame
After Richard Smith and Frank Bush I think McNair stepped in and hired Wade and promised Wade a couple of 1st RD picks to take the job. IMHO Kubiak agreed or he could get fired. Kubiak's defenses were dismal.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I just don't get this, what is different getting him 1 or 11? If he starts for you at #1 he should start at #11. If he is injured, does it matter what you gave for him? Not attacking but you seem caught up in point value chart? Now that could matter bit more 20 or less is because you could then convince me he could sit for a year. I just really do not want QB to sit this season more than a few games. If we improve the line let's get him on field.
The option year. It's more expensive to pick up the 5th year option for a top 10 pick than an 11-32 pick. Just economics.
I disagree with you on the bolded. I say sit the kid until he's ready and only use him in garbage time. Unless he clearly shows that he grasps the offense and can execute it at a high level. Nothing discourages as much as losing and getting the hell beat out of you to boot. Just ask David Carr.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
I agree with that. I might take him as early as 1.06. Maybe.
The thing is, I listened to Zierlien earlier today (recorded on the Net, don't know if it was live TODAY) talking about what a shocker it is to watch Manziel miss open receiver after open receiver when watching him on the All 22. He doesn't see them. Hopefully, that is coachable. If not, it's a killer...
Can't help thinking about how some of us did the same thing while scrutinizing Schaub during this last season. If he didn't see an open receiver, we were all over it and ticked about it, but Manziel is apparently a real problem in that regard. Seems to be his main weakness.
BTW, Zierlein is still a Manziel fan, regardless.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Smith has been involved in evaluating and grading the prospects. He'll give his advice on the prospects and make his opinion known on whom should be taken. But he too will defer if OB is adamant, one way or the other. If Smith and OB both lean toward Clowney, but Crennel wants Mack, then if Crennel can explain why he prefers his choice and how he intends to use that player in his defense, and why he prefers Mack over Clowney, I expect they will defer. All the decision making over the first choice has probably already been ironed out, barring the details of a trade, but Smith's advice is more likely to be taken the further down the draft you go. The one aspect of a choice, at any spot in the draft, in which McNair's and Smith's decision may take precedent, is when it comes to the character of a prospect...........and, meanwhile, Rick Smith is in the sauna............
I was a HUGE fan of Russell until I noticed the dude couldn't read a defense to save his life. His WR had to have 2 yds of separation before he was "open". 2 feet or less is considered open in the NFL.
I don't know that you can coach reading a defense or seeing the open WR. Either the game slows down for you and you get it or it doesn't.
badboy
Hall of Fame
If you have a 4 year QB that you cannot spend $ for fifth year he probably should not be on your roster. A top 11 QB by year five has to be your starter and that costs money. Yes you have to keep control of your cap but good QBs get paid. Unless you have a very good vet ahead of your top 11 pick (and we probably don't) you get him on field. Carr got beat up mostly because of poor line. I said we will put Oline in front of whomever we select. Of course, he has to grasp and execute the O but if you did not think he could do that why in world would you draft him?
badboy
Hall of Fame
300 of 429 for 69.9% 4114 @ 9.59 per
OK. Not saying I'm right, but I'd be much more comfortable at 1.11 than 1.1 if I'm drafting Manziel.
There might be a reason that none of us are in an NFL war room right now. LOL
Like I said, I'm all over the map with Manziel. I love him and like him. I just don't know where I want to draft him.
badboy
Hall of Fame
and that is my point without beating you over the head. If you love and like him what does it matter where you draft him if you think he can play the position? Now if you can get him later..that is why Dallas took so much heat over selecting Frederick even with a trade down they prob could have had him at least a round later.OK. Not saying I'm right, but I'd be much more comfortable at 1.11 than 1.1 if I'm drafting Manziel.
There might be a reason that none of us are in an NFL war room right now. LOL
Like I said, I'm all over the map with Manziel. I love him and like him. I just don't know where I want to draft him.
Say Watt
Hall of Fame
That's interesting about the All 22. Regardless, I still think it HAS to be factored into the equation of just how horrible the Aggie defense was this year. I'm not saying to completely excuse the missed open receivers. But what I am saying is you have to try and understand what is going on in the mind of Manziel. Perhaps he is not so much missing the receiver as he is waiting for a bigger play to open up. All of the weight was placed on his shoulders. Games this year were won AND lost by what Manziel did on the field. If he was able to make the big plays and score on essentially every drive of the game, the Aggies won. If he made a few mistakes and missed some key opportunities, the Aggies lost. There simply was no room for conservative play from Manziel with as porous as his defense was.
Did you watch Gruden's QB Camp with Manziel? He seemed to handle this issue perfectly. He pointed out Manziel's need to get better at the check down. All the great ones perfect the check down. He'll have to learn to take what the defense gives him and quit always relying on making the big play. I don't think he'll have a problem doing that.
badboy
Hall of Fame
He took Gruden's criticisms well imo also.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
I get your point, but I hold Zierlien's opinions is high regard....and he (& I, btw), are still pretty high on Manziel.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
No, I didn't see that? Is there some website I can see it on?
You do make some good points there.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Nevermind, I did a search.
Draft position, pure and simple. I don't love him enough to pick him at 1.1, but I like him enough to pick him later than that. I'd be good at 1.6, if the Atlanta deal goes through.
I want the sure-fire pick at 1.1, especially if it's a position of need. IF is a damned big word in any draft. IF you can guarantee that Manziel will be a quality starter for the next 10-15 years, then I'm cool. Of course you can't, so I'm not.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL..........before coaching.
The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL.........after coaching.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Since you can't guarantee any player for 10-15 you therefor cannot pick anyone 1.1. I want him 1.6 also as we get other picks and he could be there if I am wrong that Browns want him. I can see Jags going Bortles & Cleveland Watkins hoping they can get QB 26 or in second. Thanks for discussion.
badboy
Hall of Fame
So you are either unaware of following info or just choose to ignore?The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL..........before coaching.
The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL.........after coaching.
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/out-of-the-box
This info was posted on another thread. Manziel 20+ yards 18.69 4% better than next highest of TB, Bortles, Carr and "avg QB" .
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Many of those after more than 5 seconds to throw the ball.......not in the NFL.
badboy
Hall of Fame
He will not need 5 seconds in NFL. As someone else stated (maybe in another thread) that Manziel had to score every series due to his defense and took more on his shoulders to do so. It is good that he could accept that challenge but should not be required on Texans. Plus a lot of those five second plays were due to his offense breaking down and even scrambling which eats up clock he was very accurate. If you want him to remain in a pocket, give him a pocket to remain in.
Not necessarily on that bandwagon, but nice analogy!! And I can see where it comes from.The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL..........before coaching.
The way I see Manziel looking downfield in the NFL.........after coaching.
What? You're Manzealot crush is obvious. I wish I had your faith.
You ain't never lyin'.
Based on college coverage. That DOES NOT translate to the NFL. How many highly touted, great college QB's and subsequent NFL flops does it take to understand this? EVERY starter in the NFL is as good as or better than the best college player. Why else do you think so many college greats fall flat on their face when in the NFL? You just don't know and neither do any of the 32 teams front offices. It's a crap shoot and you do what you can to get the odds in your favor.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Some of us have been saying this for months and were crucified when it was originally brought up. I'm glad some big names in the media are coming around on this one.
I admit that there is a lot to like about Manziel (he is my #3 QB). But every time I watch him it kills me because I see this far too often. He'll have a guy wide open for 2-3 seconds and just starts running around trying to buy time for no reason. That won't fly in the NFL.
And I don't buy the "trying to score every possession" argument. If he needs to score on this possession then why is he ignoring a wide open 15 yard crossing route on 2nd and 10?
He is either trying to score on every play or he just flat out doesn't see guys. I'm going with the latter based on what I've seen.
As I've said before, I wouldn't be surprised to see Manziel have some NFL success. But I think people are going to be very surprised by how many turnovers he creates early in his career.
bah007
Hall of Fame
He didn't need it in college much either. But that didn't stop him from waiting way longer than that far too frequently.
Don't buy this argument at all. It just reads like an excuse.
His offense breaks down because he doesn't play within it. He had one of the best (probably the best) pass blocking lines in the entire country. They gave him huge amounts of time to scan the field and get rid of the ball. And he waits until the very last moment far too often. He is also spooked by phantom pressure more than any other guy I've ever scouted.
MSR. Good post.
badboy
Hall of Fame
You do not know my history on Manziel evidently. I liked him but did not think he could translate to NFL but intensive research and no favorites led me to accept him as best QB. Why is that a mancrush? I've tried to support every comment with research. Coverage? A&M played some very good teams and if your criticize JM same must be applied to other players at all positions.
Bolded: you think Luck was worse in 2011 than Grossman or Vick or Kerry Collins?
badboy
Hall of Fame
I agree and he has admitted he should have gone to these higher percentage passes but several I saw, he was trying to score or go for more yardage. He does need to protect ball more but so did Foster.
As of draft day 2012, yes I did. I'm still not sold on Luck.
No, I don't know your history on Manziel. Haven't been on the boards as much as in years past. If I'm way off base, I apologize.
badboy
Hall of Fame
answers above. I thought McAaron had the best Oline? I have said he needs to improve but so does every other player. JM did do better in 2013.
badboy
Hall of Fame
No apology needed. Al I can say about your view on Luck is wow.
LOL...the dude has been...lucky. I don't see him as being the next Manning or Montana. I see him as good, not great. Not much wow there, imo.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
I hope you're right. You're the first I've seen saying that.
I hope I'm right, too. Otherwise we need to take Clowney at 1.1 and trade up to 1.2 and take Mack or Barr. LOL
There's a difference between having the final say on the 53 man roster & Rick Smith controlling the draft. They've got to work together, it doesn't make sense for Smith to draft a guy that O'Brien hasn't bought off on, but whether we take a QB with that first pick, trade down, or take Clowney, that's Rick Smith's decision.
I think Lance is looking at it as if Manziel were playing in the NFL. For all we know, Manziel was told on whatever play to look high to low & make his decision within that progression. IF he doesn't see what he's looking for, then he should either throw it away (which I don't think was ever in Manziel's play bood) or tuck it & run (most likely in bold letters, just going off what I saw).
Some QBs were told & taught to scan from one side of the field to the other, then hit the check down.
Manziel was pretty open with Gruden, he was not in a pro system. He didn't manage protections, or have the same "reads" that you'd expect in a pro system.
That's the main reason "great" college QBs don't make it in the NFL.
I don't want any QB that high, but the only way I see someone wanting a particular player at 1.6 & not at 1.1, to me it's about who would you want instead.
If you see 5 elite players that you don't want a QB in lieu of, then it makes sense to not want him at 1.1, but be perfectly fine taking him at 1.6
If you see 10 elite players, then it wouldn't make any more sense at 1.6 than it would at 1.1
The extra picks provides the value to pass on that elite talent.
I'm in a different group all together. I don't think Manziel is going to be any more successful in the NFL than Aaron Murray, Zach Mettenberger, or Aj McCarron. Being that it is pretty safe that one of those three guys will be there at 2-1, I'm not touching QB until 2-1. Hopefully I get McCarron, I like him better than all the others, including Carr, Bridgewater, & Manziel. But if I don't get McCarron, I'd be fine taking Murray, Mettenberger, or Bridgewater if he is still there.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Duh, what happened on that day?
I do promise that no matter what, I will not post ****!!! in the largest possible font and bolded in red. I'm done overreacting...
I promise.
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