Manziel

[bah007]

I also love the fact that none of the anti-Manziel crowd have been willing to engage me on my prior post. Manziel's deep ball numbers are astounding and when combined with the fact that his numbers from the pocket are almost identical to his overall numbers, you really start to see that the arguments used against him about "constantly relying on his playmaking abilities" really are grasping at straws. It is what leads myself and others to conclude that people choose to hate on Johnny Football either because they just don't like him and/or don't like Texas A&M.

The anti-Manziel crowd will never see him for what he really is. Just like the Manziel lovers never will either.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Both sides have points and both sides will continue to make ridiculous arguments to avoid acknowledging his strengths (anti) or weaknesses (lovers).

 

[Marcus]

Well the point that you, myself, and others in this thread are trying to make is he has shown some serious improvements from last year to this year, and I can only imagine that when he starts receiving pro coaching he will improve even more. If he can learn to taper down a little bit, stay in the pocket a little more (which anyone that watched any of Johnny Football last year and this year will tell you he has improved markedly on), then that playmaking ability of his becomes a serious benefit for his team. He has to continue learning not to rely on it so much and after this last season, I very much believe he will continue to learn to hang in the pocket longer and only bolt to use his playmaking ability as a last resort.

I've just now come on to this thread, so y'all cut me some slack if this has already been gone over and beaten to death.

I'm not a Manziel hater. On the contrary, if we get stuck with the top pick, (which you all know by now that I'm hoping like hell we can trade it away) I'm actually leaning to him over Bridgewater. I have no issues whatsoever with what he does on the field.

But I do have character concerns, in particular, hitting the bottle when he gets stressed out. Now, is this alcohol issue just a myth that has been debunked? And if not, why isn't that showstopper all by itself? Here we have a 21-year old with just 2 years in college. Why shouldn't his maturity, or the lack of it, be part if the mix?

 

[michaelm]

I guess it would of been better IYO if he had just thrown an incomplete pass. Dam him for turning nothing into something.

Post reeks of fan boy.

 

[Say Watt]

Manziel threw more screens and passes less than 5 yards then Bridgewater did last season.

But it's draft season so the facts, logic and reason all take a back seat.

45.85% of Manziel's passes were thrown for less than 10 yards. 48.34% of Bortles' passes were thrown less than 10 yards. 42.55% of Bridgewater's passes were thrown less than 10 yards.

Did Bridgewater throw short less? Yes. Did Manziel check down more often than average? Not even close. Then you need to go take a look at his medium and deep ball throws.

Yep, fact, logic, and reason definitely took a back seat with you in this case.

The anti-Manziel crowd will never see him for what he really is. Just like the Manziel lovers never will either.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Both sides have points and both sides will continue to make ridiculous arguments to avoid acknowledging his strengths (anti) or weaknesses (lovers).

Truth. I agree with you entirely. Yes, I am pro-Manziel. But research my posts throughout this thread, and you will find the instances in which I have "bashed" Johnny Football as well. Is he the next great thing? No one knows. Is he a guarantee? Not even close. But is he worth taking a gamble on? I very much believe that he is.

I've just now come on to this thread, so y'all cut me some slack if this has already been gone over and beaten to death.

I'm not a Manziel hater. On the contrary, if we get stuck with the top pick, (which you all know by now that I'm hoping like hell we can trade it away) I'm actually leaning to him over Bridgewater. I have no issues whatsoever with what he does on the field.

But I do have character concerns, in particular, hitting the bottle when he gets stressed out. Now, is this alcohol issue just a myth that has been debunked? And if not, why isn't that showstopper all by itself? Here we have a 21-year old with just 2 years in college. Why shouldn't his maturity, or the lack of it, be part if the mix?

Great post, Marcus. I agree with everything you have said.

Personally, I'm undecided on Manziel or Bridgewater. Prior to the Duke game, I wouldn't have taken Manziel any higher than 20. But after watching his leadership and seeing his will to win in that game, I became sold on Johnny Football.

Like I said above, he is definitely not a guarantee. But it would scare me to death if he ended up with Jacksonville and we had to play against him twice a year. We'll see what happens.

 

[kiwitexansfan]

Almost all the highlights two pages back were from his freshman year. Let's do more recent stuff. The only egregious jump ball was the one during the Alabama game.

I'm not pushing JF, (my drafts indicate I'm very much a Bridgewater guy) but let's be honest with our appraisal of him.

These are examples of plays he's made all year, and it's obvious that he has shown progression from last year's constant scrambling.

Highlight clips in general suck for evaluation because it doesn't reflect what a QB will do 99% of the time in the NFL.

You could find QBs who won't sniff getting drafted hitting a receiver with 5yds on the CB for TDs in highlight packages, doesn't make them special.

In both of these GIFs, not sure JFF mechanics are particularly great, especially the last one.

Shows some strength I get to lob the rainbow up off the back foot.

 

[Errant Hothy]

45.85% of Manziel's passes were thrown for less than 10 yards. 48.34% of Bortles' passes were thrown less than 10 yards. 42.55% of Bridgewater's passes were thrown less than 10 yards.

Did Bridgewater throw short less? Yes. Did Manziel check down more often than average? Not even close. Then you need to go take a look at his medium and deep ball throws.

Yep, fact, logic, and reason definitely took a back seat with you in this case.



Truth. I agree with you entirely. Yes, I am pro-Manziel. But research my posts throughout this thread, and you will find the instances in which I have "bashed" Johnny Football as well. Is he the next great thing? No one knows. Is he a guarantee? Not even close. But is he worth taking a gamble on? I very much believe that he is.



Great post, Marcus. I agree with everything you have said.

Personally, I'm undecided on Manziel or Bridgewater. Prior to the Duke game, I wouldn't have taken Manziel any higher than 20. But after watching his leadership and seeing his will to win in that game, I became sold on Johnny Football.

Like I said above, he is definitely not a guarantee. But it would scare me to death if he ended up with Jacksonville and we had to play against him twice a year. We'll see what happens.

Difference between 10 and 5 there big guy. To me a check down would be a screen type pass, ie a RB still behind the line of scrimmage,or a pass of less than 5 yards. If you disagree with that definition of check down fine, but using that as a guide Manziel was at 46.85% to Bridgewater's 42.55%.

I also never said that either checked down more than average, just that Bridgewater did certainly not check down all day as the poster I initially quoted stated.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Difference between 10 and 5 there big guy. To me a check down would be a screen type pass, ie a RB still behind the line of scrimmage,or a pass of less than 5 yards. If you disagree with that definition of check down fine, but using that as a guide Manziel was at 46.85% to Bridgewater's 42.55%.

I also never said that either checked down more than average, just that Bridgewater did certainly not check down all day as the poster I initially quoted stated.

Technically, a screen pass is not a checkdown.

To "check down" means you have to look at the field and have the option of throwing a medium or long pass but because of the coverage, you "check down" to a shorter, higher percentage pass.

A screen pass, otoh, is planned from the outset as a short pass. There's no other option. If it's not open, you've got to throw it away.

 

[Errant Hothy]

Technically, a screen pass is not a checkdown.

To "check down" means you have to look at the field and have the option of throwing a medium or long pass but because of the coverage, you "check down" to a shorter, higher percentage pass.

A screen pass, otoh, is planned from the outset as a short pass. There's no other option. If it's not open, you've got to throw it away.

I agree, but using this article as our guide

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/45952/349/2014s-quarterback-conundrum

Which states "The ‘zones’ in the chart represent where the QB threw the ball on the field, that is exactly the spot the receiver caught the ball. This is to make sure yards after the catch don’t influence our opinion on the QBs."

And to refute the idea that Bridgewater checked down all day as somebody previously posted, I just proved that Manziel threw more to the screen and 1-5 yard zones than Bridgewater. I would think that if we were going to define check down passes, those 2 zones would be the best choices to use.

 

[GlassHalfFull]

I've just now come on to this thread, so y'all cut me some slack if this has already been gone over and beaten to death.

I'm not a Manziel hater. On the contrary, if we get stuck with the top pick, (which you all know by now that I'm hoping like hell we can trade it away) I'm actually leaning to him over Bridgewater. I have no issues whatsoever with what he does on the field.

But I do have character concerns, in particular, hitting the bottle when he gets stressed out. Now, is this alcohol issue just a myth that has been debunked? And if not, why isn't that showstopper all by itself? Here we have a 21-year old with just 2 years in college. Why shouldn't his maturity, or the lack of it, be part if the mix?

I am trying to stay out of this thread due to obvious bias, but I would like to make a correction for the record. Excuse me if you mean playing time, but Manziel was an early entry, entered the spring semester of his sr. year in hs. He has completed 3 years of college at this point. Since you were mentioning maturity issues, I figured playing time wasn't the important part.

Anyway, one part of me would love to see us draft him. He would be polarizing for sure. Aggies are swearing to switch allegiances from the cowgirls to us if we draft him. I am sure we would piss off longhorn fans to no end. Especially since we passed on Vince. He would bring a ton of press and attention - not sure if that is good or bad.

 

[mussop]

Post reeks of fan boy.

Like I said. I was just being a smart ass. And I'm no fan boy. I don't like any player because of where they were born or what school they go to. I don't get all full of hate because some player gets too much air time on ESPN. I like Manziel. I like Bridgewater I like Bortles. I even like Clowney. I'm cool with any of those guys at number one.

 

[matts290]

I also love the fact that none of the anti-Manziel crowd have been willing to engage me on my prior post. Manziel's deep ball numbers are astounding and when combined with the fact that his numbers from the pocket are almost identical to his overall numbers, you really start to see that the arguments used against him about "constantly relying on his playmaking abilities" really are grasping at straws. It is what leads myself and others to conclude that people choose to hate on Johnny Football either because they just don't like him and/or don't like Texas A&M.

Well the point that you, myself, and others in this thread are trying to make is he has shown some serious improvements from last year to this year, and I can only imagine that when he starts receiving pro coaching he will improve even more. If he can learn to taper down a little bit, stay in the pocket a little more (which anyone that watched any of Johnny Football last year and this year will tell you he has improved markedly on), then that playmaking ability of his becomes a serious benefit for his team. He has to continue learning not to rely on it so much and after this last season, I very much believe he will continue to learn to hang in the pocket longer and only bolt to use his playmaking ability as a last resort.

First off let me say I am in no way "anti-Manziel". I am a lifelong fightin Texas Aggie and graduate of class of 2012, so I am not a hater who is just picking on Manziel or Texas A&M...I have loved watching Manziel the last two years. However like I mentioned I am also an objective football fan so I try to look at things from every angle.

The fact is plays like I mentioned in my first post have happened very often this season, and they bring up what I believe are a lot of bad habits in Manziel's game when discussing him as potential NFL QB. Often times instead of going through his progressions and finding an open man, Johnny will make one or two quick reads and go straight to improvising. This is something I have gathered from watching every single snap he has taken at A&M plus more rewatching of the tape in recent weeks.

Is this something he can work on and improve at the next level? Of course it is, but the point is, it is still a valid argument because we are dealing with the facts layer before us, not what the potential future might hold. Johnny has tons of natural ability, huge hands, quick, fast, winning mentality, killer instinct and a downright great football player. Still, there is a lot of things he needs to improve on as a quarterback at the next level. Bad habits often die hard, and Manziel many never be able to become a disciplined pocket passer, which is totally essential to be a great QB in the NFL.

A lot of people seem to knock his arm strength, which I disagree with 100%. I, like you, think he can throw a very nice deep ball with plenty of velocity. I think the perception that he has a weak arm comes from the fact that he rarely steps up into the pocket, sets his feet, and delivers a strike down the field. Often a lot of his deep throws come while running backwards from pressure or on the run without squaring his shoulders and setting his feet.

Overall I like Manziel a lot, and the improvements he made tom 2012 to 2013 in his passing ability show that he is willing to do what it takes to succeed, but I still hold the opinion that in the most dire of situations this season Manziel would sometimes throw what he learned out the window and start darting around hoping for a receiver to work back to him and get wide open. I wish him tons of luck and hope he succeeds wherever he might end up going, even if it is to divisional rivals Jacksonville. If we do happen to take him at #1 overall, I can't say I will agree with it, but I will still be cheering him on from day 1...but in my opinion we cannot pass up a much more polished product in Teddy Bridgewater. Still if the coaching staff, Smith and O'Brien come to the conclusion that Manziel is the better pick at 1.1, I will support the decision and trust that they may know a little more about football than me.

 

[disaacks3]

My bad. I misunderstood your point. But I do believe that Randall Cunningham would be Manziel's peak potential. And that is not a bad thing, look up his stats when he was healthy.

Based on what, exactly? Certainly not a comparison of what they did in College. Link

Take his most recent performance in the Chick fil A bowl, the play where he jumped over a downline man for no apparent reason, and and the darts back out of the mess to lob a wide open pass to Labhart. It was an incredible play, almost as incredible as the Alabama half fumble TD to Swope play, and as an Aggie I scream and cheer every time he does something like that...but as a sensible football fan I know these type of plays will not work in the NFL..

I'd suggest you go back and re-watch the play.
A) Labhart was "camping" at the 19-20-yd line (19 is LoS), wide-open for approx 3 seconds while Johnny progressed from his right to left. Labhart is the only receiver to JM's left.
B) If JM throws to Labhart initially, you might get a 5-yd gain, not a TD. The DB is playing off, but not unaware.
C) #82 was creating pressure from the back on JM's right side, collapsing the pocket forward.
D) JM jumped over #52 trying to make a run up the middle, instead the guy catches his ankle and slows him down. As additional pursuit closes in the middle / left, JM breaks back and left.
E) The CB covering Labhart releases only AFTER Johnny gets his release to the left post-jumping #52.

So, this isn't a "clean pocket", jump a guy for no reason scenario.

Manziel threw more screens and passes less than 5 yards then Bridgewater did last season.

But it's draft season so the facts, logic and reason all take a back seat.

He also threw more deep balls, more accurately. Did you have a point?

 

[Errant Hothy]

He also threw more deep balls, more accurately. Did you have a point?

Yes, that the idiot who said Bridgewater did nothing but check down all game is just that, an idiot.

Beyond that, not really. I might prefer Bridgewater, but I wouldn't be anything but excited (and slightly nervous) if we drafted Manziel. And only nervous because either Manziel is going to be one of those guys to break the mold or a flame out. And I have no idea which.

 

[disaacks3]

Yes, that the idiot who said Bridgewater did nothing but check down all game is just that, an idiot.

Beyond that, not really. I might prefer Bridgewater, but I wouldn't be anything but excited (and slightly nervous) if we drafted Manziel. And only nervous because either Manziel is going to be one of those guys to break the mold or a flame out. And I have no idea which.

Me too.

It's funny how gun shy I've gotten after the Carr debacle. I don't trust the F.O. to pick the right guy. Hopefully, several of these QBs are "the right guy", so we can't miss with any of them.

 

[mussop]

Me too.

It's funny how gun shy I've gotten after the Carr debacle. I don't trust the F.O. to pick the right guy. Hopefully, several of these QBs are "the right guy", so we can't miss with any of them.

I think this is our only hope.

 

[Marcus]

Me too.

It's funny how gun shy I've gotten after the Carr debacle. I don't trust the F.O. to pick the right guy. Hopefully, several of these QBs are "the right guy", so we can't miss with any of them.

GOT DAMN!! That mirrors my thoughts to a tee. I'm trying to get past it, but I can't. Scarred I guess.

Rep.

 

[Dutchrudder]

I really don't know how anyone watches JFF and sees an NFL franchise QB day 1 or even year 1. His mechanics are bad. On long throws, you often see him swing his entire body into the pass just so he can reach the long distances, which makes me think he's covering up a slight lack of arm strength. It works in college, especially with a guy like Mike Evans around, but I don't see that working long-term in the NFL. Couple that with a guy who loves to dance around the pocket, and not keeping his eyes downfield, who skips progressions at the first sign of danger, and you have a lot of work to do to fix his game. Mentally and mechanically, I think he will take a few years to develop and should be considered a project guy.

2-1? Sure, would love to have him there, but not 1-1.

 

[htownfan32]

In all honesty Manziel should have stayed in school one more year to work on his pocket passing ability. While it is much better than last years (I say this having attended all the home games and watched all the away ones) one more year in college with another offseason with that QB guru of his (it obviously works, there is visible improvement) would prep him better for the NFL. He could be a great starter but his first year will be a little rough. As Dutchrudder stated, 2-1 - hell yes, I would take him. But 1-1? I dunno. I'm not enough of a gambling man for that.

We could trade back but hype will get him drafted much higher than he should be, which should be 1-20 to 2-5. but will be before 1-15 IMO.

Don't get me wrong - the two years I got to see him and this Aggie team play was unforgettable. But the NFL is a wholly different story.

 

[matts290]

I'd suggest you go back and re-watch the play.
A) Labhart was "camping" at the 19-20-yd line (19 is LoS), wide-open for approx 3 seconds while Johnny progressed from his right to left. Labhart is the only receiver to JM's left.
B) If JM throws to Labhart initially, you might get a 5-yd gain, not a TD. The DB is playing off, but not unaware.
C) #82 was creating pressure from the back on JM's right side, collapsing the pocket forward.
D) JM jumped over #52 trying to make a run up the middle, instead the guy catches his ankle and slows him down. As additional pursuit closes in the middle / left, JM breaks back and left.
E) The CB covering Labhart releases only AFTER Johnny gets his release to the left post-jumping #52.

So, this isn't a "clean pocket", jump a guy for no reason scenario.

Oh lordy, gonna make be bust out the screenshots are ya?

A. First off the called play was a fake screen to Labhart in order to get Derel Walker open deep down the sideline. The fake worked, Manziel looked over to Labhart right after the snap, causing the safety to hesitate and let Walker get behind him, Walker also beat his DB off the line and had ample separation heading into the end zone.

[IMGwidthsize=800]http://i42.tinypic.com/160edcx.png[/IMG]

I used yellow lines to demonstrate the amount of separation Walker had on both Safeties as well as the CB covering him. The safety on the top left has his hips facing way from Walker and is in no position to make a play, the second safety is 20+ yards away from Walker and the man covering him is 2 steps behind. Meanwhile Johnny is standing in a clean pocket with plenty of time to throw, instead he doesn't recognize the open Walker and took off up the middle. Side note; he has Labart wide open for a safety valve and a possible first down, and even has Evans coming across the middle with a step on his defender.

B) You are mostly correct, the Safety had his eyes towards Labhart because of the initial fake screen, but he was still very far off and a first down completion could have been made. Again notice in the next pic Manziel sees Evans coming open, but doesn't stick with him and takes off instead. Also notice in the below pic the aforementioned Derel Walker beating his guy off the LOS, #14 the CB has his hips towards the sideline while Walker has already began to streak towards the end zone

[IMGwidthsize=800]http://i42.tinypic.com/2enuhy8.jpg[/IMG]

C) Not really. #92 was being blocked by potential first rounder Cedric Ogbuehi (who just announced he is staying for Sr season Whoop!) #92 starts flying towards the back to try outflank Cedric, but big Ogbuehi wasn't having none of that and just rotated with him and never lost contain. Take a look at the following picture. This shows the exact moment Johhny decided to take off...this pocket is the definition of clean, not a single defender within 5 feet of him. A pocket this clean will rarely be seen in the NFL, and Johnny regularly sees a pocket like this due to playing behind the best line in CFB the last 2 years.

[IMGwidthsize=800]http://i41.tinypic.com/2ikp8q0.png[/IMG]

D) I say he jumped a guy for no reason because he should have never taken off in the first place. Obvisouly the jump was a nifty move, but like you said the defender grabbed his ankle and the play would have been over with Johnny falling to the ground if he hadn't bounced off the back of big boy Jarvis Harrison.

E)There was never a DB covering Labhart, he was open in the flat from the get go and the safety didn't come down to pick him up, he came down because Johnny started to run and he was coming down to make a potential tackle like a safety is taught to do.

First picture below shows Labhart just sitting out in the flat with out a any DB covering him, the DB in the top right corner is turned around and chasing after Walker. In the second picture you can again see how wide open Labhart is, I circled him with a yellow circle because I feel like John Madden. The safety is has is eyes on Johnny and has broke coverage of Walker in the endzone because Johnny had just began to take off.

[IMGwidthsize=800]http://i40.tinypic.com/rw13tf.png[/IMG]

[IMGwidthsize=800]http://i41.tinypic.com/30svtle.png[/IMG]

My whole point in rambling on about this one single play, is because it is something that I have seen happen pretty often the last two years. Johnny ends up making a play, but it isn't always the best play from the get go. Do you really think something like this would have happened in the NFL where he bounces off his own lineman and then runs all the way out of the mess? Not me, in the NFL this would have been a QB run for little gain and O'Brien would have been screaming at him because he had multiple guys open for positive gains.

Again, I love Johnny, and I think he has the potential to improve his bad habits at the next level, but we have to deal in the facts, not the hypothetical.

 

[htownfan32]

Oh lordy, gonna make be bust out the screenshots are ya?

A. First off the called play was a fake screen to Labhart in order to get Derel Walker open deep down the sideline. The fake worked, Manziel looked over to Labhart right after the snap, causing the safety to hesitate and let Walker get behind him, Walker also beat his DB off the line and had ample separation heading into the end zone.


I used yellow lines to demonstrate the amount of separation Walker had on both Safeties as well as the CB covering him. The safety on the top left has his hips facing way from Walker and is in no position to make a play, the second safety is 20+ yards away from Walker and the man covering him is 2 steps behind. Meanwhile Johnny is standing in a clean pocket with plenty of time to throw, instead he doesn't recognize the open Walker and took off up the middle. Side note; he has Labart wide open for a safety valve and a possible first down, and even has Evans coming across the middle with a step on his defender.

B) You are mostly correct, the Safety had his eyes towards Labhart because of the initial fake screen, but he was still very far off and a first down completion could have been made. Again notice in the next pic Manziel sees Evans coming open, but doesn't stick with him and takes off instead. Also notice in the below pic the aforementioned Derel Walker beating his guy off the LOS, #14 the CB has his hips towards the sideline while Walker has already began to streak towards the end zone


C) Not really. #92 was being blocked by potential first rounder Cedric Ogbuehi (who just announced he is staying for Sr season Whoop!) #92 starts flying towards the back to try outflank Cedric, but big Ogbuehi wasn't having none of that and just rotated with him and never lost contain. Take a look at the following picture. This shows the exact moment Johhny decided to take off...this pocket is the definition of clean, not a single defender within 5 feet of him. A pocket this clean will rarely be seen in the NFL, and Johnny regularly sees a pocket like this due to playing behind the best line in CFB the last 2 years.


D) I say he jumped a guy for no reason because he should have never taken off in the first place. Obvisouly the jump was a nifty move, but like you said the defender grabbed his ankle and the play would have been over with Johnny falling to the ground if he hadn't bounced off the back of big boy Jarvis Harrison.

E)There was never a DB covering Labhart, he was open in the flat from the get go and the safety didn't come down to pick him up, he came down because Johnny started to run and he was coming down to make a potential tackle like a safety is taught to do.

First picture below shows Labhart just sitting out in the flat with out a any DB covering him, the DB in the top right corner is turned around and chasing after Walker. In the second picture you can again see how wide open Labhart is, I circled him with a yellow circle because I feel like John Madden. The safety is has is eyes on Johnny and has broke coverage of Walker in the endzone because Johnny had just began to take off.


My whole point in rambling on about this one single play, is because it is something that I have seen happen pretty often the last two years. Johnny ends up making a play, but it isn't always the best play from the get go. Do you really think something like this would have happened in the NFL where he bounces off his own lineman and then runs all the way out of the mess? Not me, in the NFL this would have been a QB run for little gain and O'Brien would have been screaming at him because he had multiple guys open for positive gains.

Again, I love Johnny, and I think he has the potential to improve his bad habits at the next level, but we have to deal in the facts, not the hypothetical.

Cut out the screenshots but stuff like this sometimes makes me think the offensive drop-off won't be so bad. Kenny Hill seems Manziel-esque to me but a pro style guy like Kyle Allen will have a field day with a WR corps like the one we have in store. I see Allen and even Hill throwing a strike to Walker or dumping off to Labhart without the jumping around.

 

[matts290]

Cut out the screenshots but stuff like this sometimes makes me think the offensive drop-off won't be so bad. Kenny Hill seems Manziel-esque to me but a pro style guy like Kyle Allen will have a field day with a WR corps like the one we have in store. I see Allen and even Hill throwing a strike to Walker or dumping off to Labhart without the jumping around.

I don't the think the drop will be that significant i. We will see a lot less wow plays with Johnny gone, but I think the offense becomes more multi dimensional with us utilizing Carson, Williams, and Malena more. QB competition should be interesting, I like Kenny a lot but Allen is the highly touted freshman so we will see how it starts to play out come Spring time. Whoever gets the job though will be one lucky kid; RSJ returning, Speedy Noil and Nacho committed and a 3-headed RB monster and the luxury of the great Sumlin system...this offense should be plenty potent even with out JF next year.

 

[FirstTexansFan]

Throw in Kevin Murray's son who should be a recruit next year.

 

[Say Watt]

Difference between 10 and 5 there big guy. To me a check down would be a screen type pass, ie a RB still behind the line of scrimmage,or a pass of less than 5 yards. If you disagree with that definition of check down fine, but using that as a guide Manziel was at 46.85% to Bridgewater's 42.55%.

I also never said that either checked down more than average, just that Bridgewater did certainly not check down all day as the poster I initially quoted stated.

I gotcha. Actually, I missed who you were responding to, so I didn't realize your point was simply defending against the notion that all Bridgewater does is check down. On that, you and I are certainly on the same side. That post was ill informed.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...401/2013-14-college-football-all-bowl-team/1/

 

[thunderkyss]

We have our first love affair...

Adam Caplan ‏@caplannfl


[IMGwidthsize=200]http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18vlotaxtbvbgjpg/ku-xlarge.jpg[/IMG]

Do you understand how big a size 15 foot is? I mean, I wear a size 7.

It's a smokescreen. They'll get everyone to believe they're in love with Manziel. Soon it will come out the Rams are in love with Manziel at #2. We'll talk the Browns into trading picks with us to make sure they get "their guy"

They'll draft Bridgewater, the Rams will draft Bortles... & a lot of Aggie fans are going to be upset when we draft Greg Robinson.

 

[thunderkyss]

Tends to scramble too much when most of the time it's not needed.

He does throw a good ball though, but if he keeps scrambling in the NFL, he will get 20yd sacks like Keenum was getting.

I'm not on board with drafting Manziel, but this is the key. "If"


The college game is different than the pro game in a lot of ways. One is that there is a whole 'nother sense of urgency in the college game. Each season, the goal is to be undefeated. One loss, at the college level is like 3 losses in the pros.

He'll be taught, expected, to fight to live another day.

He'll have to learn when to be "Johnny Football" & when to not risk a 20 yard sack.

 

[thunderkyss]

Oh lordy, gonna make be bust out the screenshots are ya?

A. First off the called play was a fake screen to Labhart in order to get Derel Walker open deep down the sideline. The fake worked, Manziel looked over to Labhart right after the snap, causing the safety to hesitate and let Walker get behind him, Walker also beat his DB off the line and had ample separation heading into the end zone.

"Technically" you may be correct. However in that situation... it might have been as simple as Manziel not trusting Walker. As his coach, I'm telling him that was the called play, we got what we wanted, he should have pulled the trigger. However, he's on the field, he knows what he saw. If he can explain it & it's plausible, I don't count it against him. If I don't believe what he's saying... I expect it to be corrected.

For instance, it is possible (one opinion) that the ball should have already been in the air if the receiver was going to catch it before going out the back of the end zone. And the safety is in a good position for Manziel to not want to throw the ball when it should have left his hand, fractions of a second before your first still.

B)Also notice in the below pic the aforementioned Derel Walker beating his guy off the LOS, #14 the CB has his hips towards the sideline while Walker has already began to streak towards the end zone

[IMGwidthsize=260]http://i42.tinypic.com/2enuhy8.png[/IMG]

No doubt he caught the corner napping, but c'mon


FYI, if you want to make your images smaller, type widthsize after IMG

IMGwidthsize=300]link to image[/IMGwidthsize

 

[matts290]

"Technically" you may be correct. However in that situation... it might have been as simple as Manziel not trusting Walker. As his coach, I'm telling him that was the called play, we got what we wanted, he should have pulled the trigger. However, he's on the field, he knows what he saw. If he can explain it & it's plausible, I don't count it against him. If I don't believe what he's saying... I expect it to be corrected.

For instance, it is possible (one opinion) that the ball should have already been in the air if the receiver was going to catch it before going out the back of the end zone. And the safety is in a good position for Manziel to not want to throw the ball when it should have left his hand, fractions of a second before your first still.



No doubt he caught the corner napping, but c'mon


FYI, if you want to make your images smaller, type widthsize after IMG

IMGwidthsize=300]link to image[/IMGwidthsize

The play was designed for Walker, and if you have watched Aggie football you know he has made some clutch catches for Manziel, so the theory that he doesn't trust him in baseless. Even so, Walker was not the only receiver open on that play anyways.

Look at the first screen shot I posted, Manziel had Walker open, it was an issue of timing or when to throw the ball, it was the fact he didn't recognize his receiver was open because he had already made up his mind that he wanted to run it. Had he scanned the whole field and hung in the pocket, he would have seen Walker coming open and had an easy throw to the middle-left of the end zone for a TD. If you saw the few plays leading up to this one, you would have see that Manziel was getting into a rhythm on some designed runs and got close to breaking a long one. My whole point of bringing it up is that good pro QBs make that throw and don't have to rely on an ultra lucky-hurdle a defense-bounce off my lineman type play to secure 6 points.

As for that asian baby picture, I don't really get the joke?

And thanks for the tip, I went and resized them all...I have a high resolution monitor at work and I forget some people use mobile devices and I probably ruined that whole page ha.

 

[disaacks3]

Oh lordy, gonna make be bust out the screenshots are ya?.

Cute screenshots bro, but entirely mis-representing the play. You'd best watch it in motion again.

The "fake screen" isn't faking anyone when Johnny doesn't look that direction for >3 seconds.

92 was going to hit JM if he stayed put another second, he moved forward to avoid the rush. I don't care if the tackle is all world, they all get beat eventually. He had done his job forcing him to take the long way around, but he was indeed "there".

You keep trying to represent this as some sort of grievous error and the facts don't support it.

Much easier analysis - The play downfield JM was looking for didn't materialize. He pulls it down and attempts to take off up the middle. He gets tripped up and evades. As he sees daylight to the sideline, the DB breaks off Labhart and makes an easy reception possible.

Overheads are great, but you're assuming the QB always sees what you do from above. Even the great ones miss open guys. Your contention that JM missed something "obvious" is absurd.

He sure took a long time to "make up his mind" if running was his first choice.

 

[GuerillaBlack]

Cute screenshots bro, but entirely mis-representing the play. You'd best watch it in motion again.

The "fake screen" isn't faking anyone when Johnny doesn't look that direction for >3 seconds.

92 was going to hit JM if he stayed put another second, he moved forward to avoid the rush. I don't care if the tackle is all world, they all get beat eventually. He had done his job forcing him to take the long way around, but he was indeed "there".

You keep trying to represent this as some sort of grievous error and the facts don't support it.

Much easier analysis - The play downfield JM was looking for didn't materialize. He pulls it down and attempts to take off up the middle. He gets tripped up and evades. As he sees daylight to the sideline, the DB breaks off Labhart and makes an easy reception possible.

Overheads are great, but you're assuming the QB always sees what you do from above. Even the great ones miss open guys. Your contention that JM missed something "obvious" is absurd.

He sure took a long time to "make up his mind" if running was his first choice.

And the end results of the play due to Manziel's instincts? Touchdown.

 

[mussop]

Cute screenshots bro, but entirely mis-representing the play. You'd best watch it in motion again.

The "fake screen" isn't faking anyone when Johnny doesn't look that direction for >3 seconds.

92 was going to hit JM if he stayed put another second, he moved forward to avoid the rush. I don't care if the tackle is all world, they all get beat eventually. He had done his job forcing him to take the long way around, but he was indeed "there".

You keep trying to represent this as some sort of grievous error and the facts don't support it.

Much easier analysis - The play downfield JM was looking for didn't materialize. He pulls it down and attempts to take off up the middle. He gets tripped up and evades. As he sees daylight to the sideline, the DB breaks off Labhart and makes an easy reception possible.

Overheads are great, but you're assuming the QB always sees what you do from above. Even the great ones miss open guys. Your contention that JM missed something "obvious" is absurd.

He sure took a long time to "make up his mind" if running was his first choice.

One thing all the "Manziel takes off to soon" crowd don't seem to ever consider is the fact that QB's are taught after a certain amount of time you have to make a move. OL can't hold their blocks forever. Wasn't one of the biggest complaints about Case that he held the ball to long. You have to have an internal clock that tells you either throw it away or make a move.

I love that he looks to extend plays rather than just throw it away or dump it off. It does need to be toned down but after watching Schaub for the last couple of years well......

 

[thunderkyss]

The play was designed for Walker, and if you have watched Aggie football you know he has made some clutch catches for Manziel, so the theory that he doesn't trust him in baseless. Even so, Walker was not the only receiver open on that play anyways.

The point is there may have been a very real reason Manziel didn't make that throw. I don't know what it is, because I'm not looking at it from his POV. However, I do offer an opinion, most likely not right, but it is just an example. In your screen shot, the WR is open, but there's no way Manziel can get the ball to him before he runs out the back of the end zone. He would have had to have already thrown the ball in which case, the Safety was in a good defensive position.

As for that asian baby picture, I don't really get the joke?

I don't know what happened, but that was the picture I saw when I first read your post. When I go back now, it's a different picture, one that matches your description. I don't know what happened.

And thanks for the tip, I went and resized them all...I have a high resolution monitor at work and I forget some people use mobile devices and I probably ruined that whole page ha.

I'm on a 14" laptop... still jacked up the page. Appreciate you going back to "fix" it.

 

[Bulls on Parade]

 

[matts290]

Cute screenshots bro, but entirely mis-representing the play. You'd best watch it in motion again.

The "fake screen" isn't faking anyone when Johnny doesn't look that direction for >3 seconds.

92 was going to hit JM if he stayed put another second, he moved forward to avoid the rush. I don't care if the tackle is all world, they all get beat eventually. He had done his job forcing him to take the long way around, but he was indeed "there".

You keep trying to represent this as some sort of grievous error and the facts don't support it.

Much easier analysis - The play downfield JM was looking for didn't materialize. He pulls it down and attempts to take off up the middle. He gets tripped up and evades. As he sees daylight to the sideline, the DB breaks off Labhart and makes an easy reception possible.

Overheads are great, but you're assuming the QB always sees what you do from above. Even the great ones miss open guys. Your contention that JM missed something "obvious" is absurd.

He sure took a long time to "make up his mind" if running was his first choice.

I provided the screenshots to give a visual aid to what I was describing, no need to get condescending about it.

And Manziel looked right to Labhart as soon as he received the snap and Labhart leaped up into the air, I guess to sell the fake more, but it wasn't necessary at that point because the safety had already began back peddling which left Labhart wide open...a WR screen doesn't involve the QB looking in the WRs direction for >3 seconds, its a play where the QB gets the ball out of his hands quick.

This play is a staple in the Aggies offense, and they run several variations of it, most often with Mike Evans as the X receiver and Labhart in the slot to clear out the middle...but that is neither here nor there.

The whole point I was trying to illustrate is that this amazing improvisational plays will not succeed at the next level. Guys in the NFL are too disciplined to let a QB jump over them, bounce off his own lineman and then run back out of the pile to hit wide open receiver. Does that mean I think all Johnny can do is make insane "lucky" plays? No, I have seen Manziel stand in a pocket and deliver some pinpoint accurate throws all over the field, so I know he has the ability, he just isn't consistent enough with it.

In order for Johnny to be a successful QB in the NFL he is going to have to get better at scanning the entire field and going through all of his progressions. Granted, Sumlin's offense rarely calls for a full field read and the first and hot read are always dictated from the sideline. The point remains it is something he will have to get better at because he will not get away with making one read and then tucking the ball and running in the NFL.

It is obviously something he can improve once he gets into a NFL system, but as it stands Manziel does not exceed at progressing through his reads and making a throw. Does he do it at times? Of course, he has shown that he does have the ability, but has not mastered it yet.

Every QB in this draft has things he has to work on, and I just thought I would share one play that I think symbolizes Manziel's biggest weakness. Again, I am an Aggie, I want this guy to succeed more than anyone but that doesn't mean I think he is a perfect players.

I don't know what happened, but that was the picture I saw when I first read your post. When I go back now, it's a different picture, one that matches your description. I don't know what happened.
.

I saw the baby picture to through your quote...weird. I hosted the shots on tiny pic so maybe the server whacked out for a second an displayed the wrong image for the URL I posted.

 

[Errant Hothy]

More interesting info

JFF probably deserves somewhat of a pass, when you factor in how often he throws deep.

And further evidence to stay far far away from Carr.

 

[Playoffs]

Eric Winston on 610AM just now put it perfectly, "Johnny Manziel is going to get a coach fired... Either the guy who drafted him or the guy who passed on him."

Nightmare for OTs to block for.

Throws good deep ball, questionable on the mid-outs.

Needs to press up into the pocket.

Loves his swag.

 

[Errant Hothy]

Pulling this from another thread

I find it humorous that Manziel is being touted as 6'1" and 210#.

Colin Klein is 6'5" and Te'o is 6'1"

Saw him at the Rockets game next to Chris Paul (6'0") and he was at least 2 inches shorter than Paul.

So can you still draft JFF if he's 5'10"?

 

[mussop]

Pulling this from another thread



So can you still draft JFF if he's 5'10"?

Not at 1.1.

 

[Texian]

So can you still draft JFF if he's 5'10"?

Russell Wilson is 5'10"

 

[Errant Hothy]

Russell Wilson is 5'10"

So is Doug Flutie. Your point?

 

[kingtexan]

Not at 1.1.

Here's the thing. No QB in the class is worth 1.1, but if you were going to take a flyer at 1.1 the only one that would make sense is Manziel. He is the only one that could potentially be a game changing superstar IMO. The others may turn out to be decent QB's, but you don't take that chance unless you are betting on greatness.

 

[Texian]

So is Doug Flutie. Your point?

read the question

 

[Errant Hothy]

read the question

I wrote the damn question, and since almost a 1000 posts in this thread have been about drafting Manziel at 1-1 I thought it was implied.

But I'll clarify if you need me to.

At 5'10" can you draft Manziel at 1-1?

Happy now?

 

[matts290]

Is there any logical way we could get Manziel not at 1.1? I mean the highest feasible trade partner would probably be Cleveland at 1.4 and get their second first rounder plus whatever moving pieces. That means both Cleveland and Jax would be selecting before us and unless we know for sure they each want one of Teddy and Bortles, we could get screwed. And that trade is only possible is Cleveland falls in love with Teddy and is willing to give up another first rounder to get him over Johnny/Manziel.

 

[Corrosion]

I wrote the damn question, and since almost a 1000 posts in this thread have been about drafting Manziel at 1-1 I thought it was implied.

But I'll clarify if you need me to.

At 5'10" can you draft Manziel at 1-1?

Happy now?

I recently went back and watched a bunch of film on both TB and Manziel .... and despite the lack of height , Manziel looks to be the better of the two.


Flawless mechanics , great footwork , accuracy , elusiveness in the pocket , reads defenses better and the work ethic to go with it. The only thing Bridgewater has in his favor is the height & the fact that he runs a more pro style offense when I compare the side by side & you cant forget about the disparity in level of competition ....

I had not been of the mindset to take Manziel over Bridgewater prior to this comparison but I'd be comfortable with doing so now.

 

[WolverineFan]

Russell Wilson is 5'10"

And Wilson got drafted in the 3rd round because he was 5'10, despite having all of the skills necessary to be a successful QB.

The question was would you still draft Manziel #1.

 

[aussie_texan]

Is there any logical way we could get Manziel not at 1.1? I mean the highest feasible trade partner would probably be Cleveland at 1.4 and get their second first rounder plus whatever moving pieces. That means both Cleveland and Jax would be selecting before us and unless we know for sure they each want one of Teddy and Bortles, we could get screwed. And that trade is only possible is Cleveland falls in love with Teddy and is willing to give up another first rounder to get him over Johnny/Manziel.

not including a team maybe trading up with the rams who could take a QB

 

[ATXtexanfan]

i think im on the manziel train. roll the dice. its all about qb in this league. just sayin

 

[Corrosion]

And Wilson got drafted in the 3rd round because he was 5'10, despite having all of the skills necessary to be a successful QB.

The question was would you still draft Manziel #1.

I'd prefer to move back to #3 or #4 and still get him as the biggest threat IMO is the Raiders at 5 pending Jax and Cleveland take Bortles & Bridgewater.

 

[kingtexan]

Bob Slovak just showed a photo of him next to Manziel. Bob is 6'1" ... JFF is at least 6' 0"