Manziel

[thunderkyss]

Here's the thing. No QB in the class is worth 1.1, but if you were going to take a flyer at 1.1 the only one that would make sense is Manziel. He is the only one that could potentially be a game changing superstar IMO. The others may turn out to be decent QB's, but you don't take that chance unless you are betting on greatness.

There was no doubt in my mind that there were people here who wanted us to draft Johnny Manziel. I knew they were here. It makes sense. He's obviously talented. We need a talented QB... no, we need a special QB & while Bridgewater is very good, he's not special.

So I get it.


But at 1-1 overall..... interesting. I don't want to draft Manziel, much less at 1-1. However, it makes more sense than drafting Bridgewater at 1-1. Like you said, Manziel has the ability to be great. But you're swinging for a homerun & some people just won't understand it.

 

[GuerillaBlack]

Is there any logical way we could get Manziel not at 1.1? I mean the highest feasible trade partner would probably be Cleveland at 1.4 and get their second first rounder plus whatever moving pieces. That means both Cleveland and Jax would be selecting before us and unless we know for sure they each want one of Teddy and Bortles, we could get screwed. And that trade is only possible is Cleveland falls in love with Teddy and is willing to give up another first rounder to get him over Johnny/Manziel.

They would probably be okay with either Manziel or Bortles there.

 

[matts290]

Bob Slovak just showed a photo of him next to Manziel. Bob is 6'1" ... JFF is at least 6' 0"

Mind posting it? Just curious. I have met/stood next to Johnny in person and right around 6ft seems accurate, I am exactly 5"11.5 and he seemed right at my height maybe a hair taller or shorter although I wasn't paying attention just trying to go off memory.

not including a team maybe trading up with the rams who could take a QB

Thats very true, Raiders or Vikes could make this move to trade up into the Rams spot and then we would have missed on all 3 of the top prospects. The way I see it at this point, if we want Johnny it has to be at #1.

 

[thunderkyss]

Flawless mechanics , great footwork , accuracy , elusiveness in the pocket , reads defenses better... and the work ethic to go with it. The only thing Bridgewater has in his favor is the height & the fact that he runs a more pro style offense when I compare the side by side & you cant forget about the disparity in level of competition ....

I had not been of the mindset to take Manziel over Bridgewater prior to this comparison but I'd be comfortable with doing so now.

I feel exactly the same way. About Manziel being the better choice in the long run. I agree about his mechanics, his footwork, & reading a defense. I don't know about his work ethic. But I don't want to be pegged as an Aggie, so I wasn't going to say.

But IMO, this would have to be a poor draft to take either at 1-1..... like the 2002 draft.

 

[GuerillaBlack]

Yeah that's what I said after the chick fil a bowl. Picking at number one could be the only place the Texans could get Manziel. You never know what could happen in the draft. So many teams need a qb. Though the Texans could also potentially come away with Clowney, Boyd, and Greg Robinson if they tradedwith Cleveland and got their late first.

 

[mussop]

I'd prefer to move back to #3 or #4 and still get him as the biggest threat IMO is the Raiders at 5 pending Jax and Cleveland take Bortles & Bridgewater.

Ideally we trade down to three and get Manziel or Bridgewater. If thats not available and we get a great offer I'm willing to trade down no lower than 1.6.. I feel like there are six elite players in this draft and I want one of them.


*Javedon Clowney DE South Carolina (X)
*Teddy Bridgewater QB Louisville
Anthony Barr LB UCLA
*Sammie Watkins WR Clemson
*Blake Bortles QB Central Florida
*Johnny Manziel QB Texas A&M

To trade down lower than that it would have to be an incredible offer.

 

[mussop]

Yeah that's what I said after the chick fil a bowl. Picking at number one could be the only place the Texans could get Manziel. You never know what could happen in the draft. So many teams need a qb. Though the Texans could also potentially come away with Clowney, Boyd, and Greg Robinson if they tradedwith Cleveland and got their late first.

Clowney falling to six would be surprising. That would be an incredible haul though.

 

[Corrosion]

Yeah that's what I said after the chick fil a bowl. Picking at number one could be the only place the Texans could get Manziel. You never know what could happen in the draft. So many teams need a qb. Though the Texans could also potentially come away with Clowney, Boyd, and Greg Robinson if they tradedwith Cleveland and got their late first.

I was really high on Boyd early in the season ..... even went as far as saying he was the top Sr. QB in this class .... But now , I wouldn't make that statement , just don't think he's going to be an NFL quality QB after watching him this season. I'd take Fales in the 2nd or Logan Thomas in the 3rd instead..

 

[bah007]

I was really high on Boyd early in the season ..... even went as far as saying he was the top Sr. QB in this class .... But now , I wouldn't make that statement , just don't think he's going to be an NFL quality QB after watching him this season. I'd take Fales in the 2nd or Logan Thomas in the 3rd instead..

Logan Thomas? He's the poster boy for guys who have NFL size and nothing else.

 

[Texn4life]

Eric Winston on 610AM just now put it perfectly, "Johnny Manziel is going to get a coach fired... Either the guy who drafted him or the guy who passed on him."

Nightmare for OTs to block for.

Throws good deep ball, questionable on the mid-outs.

Needs to press up into the pocket.

Loves his swag.

He hasn't watched a lot of Manziel if he thinks he's questionable on mid-outs. He throws that better than probably anything else in my opinion.

 

[mussop]

Logan Thomas? He's the poster boy for guys who have NFL size and nothing else.

He was horrible this year.

 

[Texn4life]

He was horrible this year.

Horrible is putting it nicely........ I kind of think he can be fixed, but its going to take a lot of work. Anything before using a 4th on him is too soon.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Here's the thing. No QB in the class is worth 1.1, but if you were going to take a flyer at 1.1 the only one that would make sense is Manziel. He is the only one that could potentially be a game changing superstar IMO. The others may turn out to be decent QB's, but you don't take that chance unless you are betting on greatness.

Aren't you the guy that spammed in every thread calling Bridgewater a cross dresser?

Horrible is putting it nicely........ I kind of think he can be fixed, but its going to take a lot of work. Anything before using a 4th on him is too soon.

Dude is horrible every year. Wouldn't take him as an UDFA.

 

[Mr teX]

I wish someone would post non running/scraming highlights. That's the problem, his scrambling highlights are so exciting that people tend to ignore the rest of his abilities.

Cut out the screenshots but stuff like this sometimes makes me think the offensive drop-off won't be so bad. Kenny Hill seems Manziel-esque to me but a pro style guy like Kyle Allen will have a field day with a WR corps like the one we have in store. I see Allen and even Hill throwing a strike to Walker or dumping off to Labhart without the jumping around.

There won't be a drop off, the system is gonna ensure that. I'll do u 1 better, if the next guy behind JFF is more patient in the pocket, he'll probably put up the same numbers if not better...

 

[disaacks3]

I provided the screenshots to give a visual aid to what I was describing, no need to get condescending about it.

This from the guy telling me where the RT might be drafted?

And Manziel looked right to Labhart as soon as he received the snap Nope and Labhart leaped up into the air Yep, I guess to sell the fake more, but it wasn't necessary at that point because the safety had already began back peddling which left Labhart wide open...a WR screen doesn't involve the QB looking in the WRs direction for >3 seconds, its a play where the QB gets the ball out of his hands quick.

The reason the DB never closed was that JM never looked that way.

This play is a staple in the Aggies offense, and they run several variations of it, most often with Mike Evans as the X receiver and Labhart in the slot to clear out the middle...but that is neither here nor there.

I'm fully aware of their Offensive tendencies, the point remains that JM didn't look at Labhart, which is why the DB wasn't biting. I've seen Case run the same play at Cougar High.

The whole point I was trying to illustrate is that this amazing improvisational plays will not succeed at the next level.

Too many examples in NFL history that show otherwise.

Guys in the NFL are too disciplined to let a QB jump over them, bounce off his own lineman and then run back out of the pile to hit wide open receiver.

Sure, cherry-pick one sequesnce that nobody else has done and you'd be correct. Take out even one element (like the hurdled lineman) and today's mobile QBs, including Luck manage to do these things weekly.

Does that mean I think all Johnny can do is make insane "lucky" plays? No, I have seen Manziel stand in a pocket and deliver some pinpoint accurate throws all over the field, so I know he has the ability, he just isn't consistent enough with it. Fully Agree

In order for Johnny to be a successful QB in the NFL he is going to have to get better at scanning the entire field and going through all of his progressions. Granted, Sumlin's offense rarely calls for a full field read and the first and hot read are always dictated from the sideline.
First read, yes. Hot read, not always. Johnny needs to make his progression reads faster (par for NFL transition)

The point remains it is something he will have to get better at because he will not get away with making one read and then tucking the ball and running in the NFL. You keep saying he makes only one read and runs, the evidence THIS season says otherwise.

It is obviously something he can improve once he gets into a NFL system, but as it stands Manziel does not exceed at progressing through his reads and making a throw. Does he do it at times? Of course, he has shown that he does have the ability, but has not mastered it yet. Agreed

Every QB in this draft has things he has to work on, and I just thought I would share one play that I think symbolizes Manziel's biggest weakness. Again, I am an Aggie, I want this guy to succeed more than anyone but that doesn't mean I think he is a perfect players. I think he's far from perfect, but has more ability than most realize. I think your "illustrative" play is a poor example of what you're trying to show. 2:23 on this clip from the same game might be more on point

The irony here is that if you'd asked me LAST year about JM, I'd have agreed on the run-too-soon mentality. The work he's put in and his decreased tendency to run show what great strides he's made. He set out to prove to NFL scouts that he could be a better pocket passer. For the most part, he's succeeded.

BTW - Save the "I'm an Aggie" part, I get it. My father went to A&M when there was this guy named Paul Bryant coaching there. I've followed the program since the 80's.

 

[matts290]

This from the guy telling me where the RT might be drafted?


Huh? How was me mentioning the fact that Cedric was a first round draft pick condescending? After all he did receive a first round grade from the NFL board so I think my statement was fairly factual.

The reason the DB never closed was that JM never looked that way.

I'm fully aware of their Offensive tendencies, the point remains that JM didn't look at Labhart, which is why the DB wasn't biting. I've seen Case run the same play at Cougar High.

I really don't know what you are seeing here, it is obvious Manziel looked Labhart's way...Labhart is number #15 by the way, maybe you are thinking of Walker?

Too many examples in NFL history that show otherwise.


I get you on this, guys like Favre were amazing at crazy improvisational plays, maybe my statement was off base. I am sure if Manziel is to be a great NFL QB a lot of it will have to do with his ability to make plays in unconventional ways with his feet, that is what makes him attractive. I think I was getting too lost in the point I was trying to prove and forgot what makes Manziel great is the ability to make those plays.

You keep saying he makes only one read and runs, the evidence THIS season says otherwise.
I am not saying this is all he does, there has been plenty of examples this year of him making multiple reads and staying in the pocket. My whole point is that he still shows a bad habit at times to not do this, and make one quick read and take off. Does he do it on every single play? No, thats not what I am saying at all, just contending that he needs to be more consistent with going through his progression.

BTW - Save the "I'm an Aggie" part, I get it. My father went to A&M when there was this guy named Paul Bryant coaching there. I've followed the program since the 80's.

I only mentioned it for two reasons. One because I have noticed a trend on this board and others than many people criticizing Manziel are A&M haters or UT/Baylor etc fans. And two, because I wanted to highlight the fact that being an Aggie I have seen every snap Manziel has taken, 50% of them in person at Kyle Field...in no way did I mean it as bragging, just thought it was worth mentioned.

 

[htownfan32]

This from the guy telling me where the RT might be drafted?


BTW - Save the "I'm an Aggie" part, I get it. My father went to A&M when there was this guy named Paul Bryant coaching there. I've followed the program since the 80's.

I only mentioned it for two reasons. One because I have noticed a trend on this board and others than many people criticizing Manziel are A&M haters or UT/Baylor etc fans. And two, because I wanted to highlight the fact that being an Aggie I have seen every snap Manziel has taken, 50% of them in person at Kyle Field...in no way did I mean it as bragging, just thought it was worth mentioned.

Fitting that the last memories of the current Kyle Field all of us students have is of Johnny chucking it around on Mississippi State. I think it'll feel a little strange at first next year with the Phase I of the renovation done.

 

[Texian]

I wrote the damn question, and since almost a 1000 posts in this thread have been about drafting Manziel at 1-1 I thought it was implied.

But I'll clarify if you need me to.

At 5'10" can you draft Manziel at 1-1?

Happy now?

Let me clarify, Russell Wilson is 5'10" would you draft him today at 1-1? I think JF will measure closer to 6'0" than 5'10". Me personally I don't draft JF 1-1 but it has nothing to w/ his height and everything to do with Bortles and Bridgewater still on the board.

Feel Better?

 

[leebigeztx]

I recently went back and watched a bunch of film on both TB and Manziel .... and despite the lack of height , Manziel looks to be the better of the two.


Flawless mechanics , great footwork , accuracy , elusiveness in the pocket , reads defenses better and the work ethic to go with it. The only thing Bridgewater has in his favor is the height & the fact that he runs a more pro style offense when I compare the side by side & you cant forget about the disparity in level of competition ....

I had not been of the mindset to take Manziel over Bridgewater prior to this comparison but I'd be comfortable with doing so now.

Let meunderstand this, are you saying manziel has flawless mechanics,great footwork,and accuracy and reads defenses better or are you saying that about Bridgewater cuz I'm confused?

 

[Corrosion]

Let meunderstand this, are you saying manziel has flawless mechanics,great footwork,and accuracy and reads defenses better or are you saying that about Bridgewater cuz I'm confused?

Manziel. His mechanics are flawless in the pocket ....

Bridgewater has a loop in his throwing motion and holds the ball chest high on many occasions.

 

[leebigeztx]

Manziel. His mechanics are flawless in the pocket ....

Bridgewater has a loop in his throwing motion and holds the ball chest high on many occasions.

Flawless in the pocket huh? So I guess when the ball is down by his waist,that doesn't count as mechanics,right? This iis probably one of the silliest posts I've seen on this board. Footwork in the pocket? Did you see the screenshot by the other poster when his feet were parallel to the los,but that's flawless? That's terrible. Maybe you don't know,but you aim you feet in the direction your throwing. Your feet shouldn't ever be side by side,not even on a flair pass.

 

[matts290]

http://youtu.be/SNbf4ImD-ig

 

[Texn4life]

George Whitfield will have Manziel as prepared for this draft than any other QB I believe. If he can stay out of trouble and out of the clubs I really feel like he'll be in the discussion for #1 overall. O'Brien comes across as the kind of guy who has a very in tune BS meter though so it'll be interesting to see how he looks at him during the process. Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

Someone already posted on the A&M board that O'Brien at this point and McNair like Bortles and Johnny respectively. That's not a surprise to anyone though. McNair in all fairness needs to let BOB make this decision along with Rick Smith. I understand the appeal of Manziel as an owner and I'm actually saying I don't see how we pass up on Johnny. But if that's not who BOB feels like is best for this team then it'll cause problems right off the bat within the organization.

 

[Corrosion]

Flawless in the pocket huh? So I guess when the ball is down by his waist,that doesn't count as mechanics,right? This iis probably one of the silliest posts I've seen on this board. Footwork in the pocket? Did you see the screenshot by the other poster when his feet were parallel to the los,but that's flawless? That's terrible. Maybe you don't know,but you aim you feet in the direction your throwing. Your feet shouldn't ever be side by side,not even on a flair pass.

You can find instances of just about any QB's mechanics breaking down .... but in general , Manziel has superior mechanics to Bridgewater. When he's in a clean pocket , his footwork , ball position & throwing motion are very much like that of ..... Peyton Manning.

Until things break down , Manziel keeps the ball high and tight , yes , when he starts running around his mechanics go to sh!t .... which is why I specified in the pocket.

Hey , if Bridgewater or Bortles is your guy , that's fine with me .... I hadn't made a decision on any of the three until very recently & I'm no A&M homer .... at this point , I think Manziel is probably the better of the three.

 

[otisbean]

Let me clarify, Russell Wilson is 5'10" would you draft him today at 1-1? I think JF will measure closer to 6'0" than 5'10". Me personally I don't draft JF 1-1 but it has nothing to w/ his height and everything to do with Bortles and Bridgewater still on the board.

Feel Better?

Do you like Bridgewater better than Manziel?

 

[kingtexan]

Aren't you the guy that spammed in every thread calling Bridgewater a cross dresser?.

Nope

 

[kingtexan]

There was no doubt in my mind that there were people here who wanted us to draft Johnny Manziel. I knew they were here. It makes sense. He's obviously talented. We need a talented QB... no, we need a special QB & while Bridgewater is very good, he's not special.

So I get it.


But at 1-1 overall..... interesting. I don't want to draft Manziel, much less at 1-1. However, it makes more sense than drafting Bridgewater at 1-1. Like you said, Manziel has the ability to be great. But you're swinging for a homerun & some people just won't understand it.

I'm not advocating taking him at #1, but IF we are going to take a QB in that spot ... it has to be Manziel. He is the only one who could prove to be worth it. I would rather see us grab Matthews or Clowney, or better yet trade down a couple spots with Cleveland and pick up an extra 1st round pick.

However, like Eric Winston said on 610 yesterday, JFF is going to get someone fired. Either the GM that takes him, or the GM that doesn't. Pick him and what do you have to lose? If he doesn't work out in two years you are picking #1 again and can grab another prospect.

 

[steelbtexan]

Me too.

It's funny how gun shy I've gotten after the Carr debacle. I don't trust the F.O. to pick the right guy. Hopefully, several of these QBs are "the right guy", so we can't miss with any of them.

Count me in this group

This is probably why I don't like any of the QB's in this yrs draft.

 

[bah007]

I'm not advocating taking him at #1, but IF we are going to take a QB in that spot ... it has to be Manziel. He is the only one who could prove to be worth it. I would rather see us grab Matthews or Clowney, or better yet trade down a couple spots with Cleveland and pick up an extra 1st round pick.

However, like Eric Winston said on 610 yesterday, JFF is going to get someone fired. Either the GM that takes him, or the GM that doesn't. Pick him and what do you have to lose? If he doesn't work out in two years you are picking #1 again and can grab another prospect.

That's not exactly specific to Manziel. You could say that about whoever we end up with #1.

 

[kingtexan]

That's not exactly specific to Manziel. You could say that about whoever we end up with #1.

I agree, and was just quoting Eric Winston.

I do see where it could apply more to the QB position.

 

[bah007]

I agree, and was just quoting Eric Winston.

I do see where it could apply more to the QB position.

Agree. QB has the highest impact on the field. But it applies to all of them, not just Manziel.

 

[Texian]

Do you like Bridgewater better than Manziel?

At this point I do, subject to change.

 

[thunderkyss]

You can find instances of just about any QB's mechanics breaking down .... but in general , Manziel has superior mechanics to Bridgewater. When he's in a clean pocket , his footwork , ball position & throwing motion are very much like that of ..... Peyton Manning.

Until things break down , Manziel keeps the ball high and tight , yes , when he starts running around his mechanics go to sh!t .... which is why I specified in the pocket.

Hey , if Bridgewater or Bortles is your guy , that's fine with me .... I hadn't made a decision on any of the three until very recently & I'm no A&M homer .... at this point , I think Manziel is probably the better of the three.

His reads are also in sync with his feet. Each step appears to be a new read, & he steps into his throw fluidly from his last read.

Bridgewater's feet are doing the right thing, but from what I've seen, his feet are totally independent from his reads. Maybe he has another way (perhaps a better way) of staying in sync with his receivers... I can not speak to that.

 

[Corrosion]

Count me in this group

This is probably why I don't like any of the QB's in this yrs draft.

I like Manziel & Bortles , not sure if either is a true franchise guy , top 5 in the NFL type but think either could be given the right circumstances .... Bridgewater is a much bigger gamble IMO.


Now whether or not I expect Rick Smith to make the right choice ..... that's a totally different story. He's prone to making some head scratchers.

 

[thunderkyss]

I like Manziel & Bortles , not sure if either is a true franchise guy , top 5 in the NFL type but think either could be given the right circumstances .... Bridgewater is a much bigger gamble IMO.


Now whether or not I expect Rick Smith to make the right choice ..... that's a totally different story. He's prone to making some head scratchers.

Wouldn't the bigger concern be our ability to present the "right circumstances" Another way of looking at it, is that Rick Smith can't screw it up if the coaches do their job.

Now if the guy we get believes getting to the NFL is the goal & they don't commit to becoming the best.... yeah, he picked the wrong guy. But I personally don't believe that will be a problem with either of the three.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Nope

It was bothering me, I had to look it up. Lord Bills is who it was. Sorry about that.

 

[leebigeztx]

You can find instances of just about any QB's mechanics breaking down .... but in general , Manziel has superior mechanics to Bridgewater. When he's in a clean pocket , his footwork , ball position & throwing motion are very much like that of ..... Peyton Manning.

Until things break down , Manziel keeps the ball high and tight , yes , when he starts running around his mechanics go to sh!t .... which is why I specified in the pocket.

Hey , if Bridgewater or Bortles is your guy , that's fine with me .... I hadn't made a decision on any of the three until very recently & I'm no A&M homer .... at this point , I think Manziel is probably the better of the three.

Before we continue this discussion let me sa this, I like maniziel. I think he's,fun,instinctive,and a competitor. Let me also say I would never draft him. Its not that I really wouldn't, its where my value is vs his percieved value.

Back to our discussion, manziel is not sound in the pocket and has a bit of a windup. Not to metion,he's not reading defenses at all. He's reading 1 route,then after that, he's running around or retreating in the pocket. When the pocket is closing down, he can't see. So he gets outside the pocket to see. I watched lsu last night on my dvr, and all they did was rob underneath routes and "sugar" rush him. The de's didn't get past him,they faked blitzes and took away those short routes underneath. When he was forced to drive the ball outside,he couldn't do it. He has a good arm,doesn't mean he can drive the ball.

Look,all the prospect got something they need to work on. Just like phil simms questioned lucks ability to drive the ball and other talked of the compact offense he ran at stanford. With rg3,they really didn't have plays per se,more ad lib,but they said he had the acumen to pick up a nfl offense. None of the guys are perfect and there has never been a perfect,flawless prospect to come out. These guys are 20,21,22 and some will get better and some never develop. Miami said ryan was maxed out physically and henne had more upside. So they brought in pennington,drafted long 1st and henne 2 and won the division. Few yrs later,they had to draft another qb at 8 and long is with fisher and the rams. The falcons bombed this season,but up until this year,ryan had as many wins as anyone in the league. So the most important thing is to get the pick right more than anything.

 

[WolverineFan]

I like Manziel & Bortles , not sure if either is a true franchise guy , top 5 in the NFL type but think either could be given the right circumstances .... Bridgewater is a much bigger gamble IMO.

I really don't know how you could look at Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel as prospects and call Bridgewater the biggest gamble. It's quite the opposite. He has the highest floor of all of them. Unless, by biggest gamble, you mean that he might have the lowest ceiling?

 

[leebigeztx]

I really don't know how you could look at Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel as prospects and call Bridgewater the biggest gamble. It's quite the opposite. He has the highest floor of all of them. Unless, by biggest gamble, you mean that he might have the lowest ceiling?

I'm confused by it as well. He said manziel has the best mechanics and superior feet when he has a clean pocket which I dispute. Not to mention the guys head never moves once he recieves the snap. His head moves on improvision. Its clear,everyone has their favorites in terms of qb. I like bridgewater,texian is in love with bortles,some guys are pumping up mettenburger,and other like manziel. As long as we can be a little objective about it, its good discusion.

 

[WolverineFan]

I'm confused by it as well. He said manziel has the best mechanics and superior feet when he has a clean pocket which I dispute. Not to mention the guys head never moves once he recieves the snap. His head moves on improvision. Its clear,everyone has their favorites in terms of qb. I like bridgewater,texian is in love with bortles,some guys are pumping up mettenburger,and other like manziel. As long as we can be a little objective about it, its good discusion.

A.J. McCarron looked great when he had a clean pocket too. The whole knock on him was what would he look like without one. We found out. I could care less what Manziel or Bridgewater look like in a clean pocket. It doesn't matter. Gabbert looks great in a clean pocket. What do these guys look like when the play breaks down? That's what's important.

 

[kingtexan]

It was bothering me, I had to look it up. Lord Bills is who it was. Sorry about that.

No worries. Typically the only time I mention cross-dressing is in reference to Infantrycak or 2012 Champs ...

 

[mussop]

Before we continue this discussion let me sa this, I like maniziel. I think he's,fun,instinctive,and a competitor. Let me also say I would never draft him. Its not that I really wouldn't, its where my value is vs his percieved value.

Back to our discussion, manziel is not sound in the pocket and has a bit of a windup. Not to metion,he's not reading defenses at all. He's reading 1 route,then after that, he's running around or retreating in the pocket. When the pocket is closing down, he can't see. So he gets outside the pocket to see. I watched lsu last night on my dvr, and all they did was rob underneath routes and "sugar" rush him. The de's didn't get past him,they faked blitzes and took away those short routes underneath. When he was forced to drive the ball outside,he couldn't do it. He has a good arm,doesn't mean he can drive the ball.

Look,all the prospect got something they need to work on. Just like phil simms questioned lucks ability to drive the ball and other talked of the compact offense he ran at stanford. With rg3,they really didn't have plays per se,more ad lib,but they said he had the acumen to pick up a nfl offense. None of the guys are perfect and there has never been a perfect,flawless prospect to come out. These guys are 20,21,22 and some will get better and some never develop. Miami said ryan was maxed out physically and henne had more upside. So they brought in pennington,drafted long 1st and henne 2 and won the division. Few yrs later,they had to draft another qb at 8 and long is with fisher and the rams. The falcons bombed this season,but up until this year,ryan had as many wins as anyone in the league. So the most important thing is to get the pick right more than anything.

He's not reading defenses at all? You couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Corrosion]

I'm confused by it as well. He said manziel has the best mechanics and superior feet when he has a clean pocket which I dispute. Not to mention the guys head never moves once he recieves the snap. His head moves on improvision. Its clear,everyone has their favorites in terms of qb. I like bridgewater,texian is in love with bortles,some guys are pumping up mettenburger,and other like manziel. As long as we can be a little objective about it, its good discusion.

Your head doesn't have to move a whole lot for your eyes to scan the field ..... Its easier for a defender to pick up on head movement than it is eye movement giving away the QB's intentions. Often QB's look off defenders as well .... QB is a complicated position.




As I've stated several times , I don't know who I want at this point among those three QB's. I don't have a real favorite , they all have their warts and I'm still trying to evaluate each of them.

I think I have been one of the most objective on the entire forum on this subject along with TK ... while the majority of others have already made their decision.

I've got three issues with Bridgewater - sloppy mechanics , low level of competition & that loop in his throwing motion.

Manziel has a couple things that bother me - Plays in the spread , his height & I have to wonder how his style of play translates to the NFL when everyone on the field is a great athlete. (then I watch him shred a very good Alabama defense)

To be honest , Bortles is probably the safer pick among the three ... he's solid everywhere but not great anywhere either ... Highest downside , lowest upside.


As for the comparison of mechanics , I've shown examples (in a clean pocket) those are difficult to refute. There are dozens of images showing these QB's & Youtube has a hundred or more examples of each in video form .... go take a look and compare them for yourself. Then come back and present us with your evidence .... don't just dispute my presentation with an empty argument.



Signed:
Still undecided.

 

[mussop]

Your head doesn't have to move a whole lot for your eyes to scan the field ..... Its easier for a defender to pick up on head movement than it is eye movement giving away the QB's intentions. Often QB's look off defenders as well .... QB is a complicated position.




As I've stated several times , I don't know who I want at this point among those three QB's. I don't have a real favorite , they all have their warts and I'm still trying to evaluate each of them.

I think I have been one of the most objective on the entire forum on this subject along with TK ... while the majority of others have already made their decision.

I've got three issues with Bridgewater - sloppy mechanics , low level of competition & that loop in his throwing motion.

Manziel has a couple things that bother me - Plays in the spread , his height & I have to wonder how his style of play translates to the NFL when everyone on the field is a great athlete. (then I watch him shred a very good Alabama defense)

To be honest , Bortles is probably the safer pick among the three ... he's solid everywhere but not great anywhere either ... Highest downside , lowest upside.


As for the comparison of mechanics , I've shown examples (in a clean pocket) those are difficult to refute. There are dozens of images showing these QB's & Youtube has a hundred or more examples of each in video form .... go take a look and compare them for yourself. Then come back and present us with your evidence .... don't just dispute my presentation with an empty argument.



Signed:
Still undecided.

I've been here for a while. I've said I'm ok with any of the 3 QB's that BOB thinks fits his system the best. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. A legitimate case for any one of them could be made for number one. Same for Clowney and even Barr. I would add another name in there to but don't want to throw this thread off into a frenzy.

 

[JB]

I would add another name in there to but don't want to throw this thread off into a frenzy.

oh just do it! Do it!

 

[disaacks3]

There was no doubt in my mind that there were people here who wanted us to draft Johnny Manziel. I knew they were here. It makes sense. He's obviously talented. We need a talented QB... no, we need a special QB & while Bridgewater is very good, he's not special.

I think both can be special, I think both also have NFL failure potential. They're both risks, for different reasons.

Ideally we trade down to three and get Manziel or Bridgewater. If thats not available and we get a great offer I'm willing to trade down no lower than 1.6.. I feel like there are six elite players in this draft and I want one of them.


*Javedon Clowney DE South Carolina (X)
*Teddy Bridgewater QB Louisville
Anthony Barr LB UCLA
*Sammie Watkins WR Clemson
*Blake Bortles QB Central Florida
*Johnny Manziel QB Texas A&M

To trade down lower than that it would have to be an incredible offer.

Unless you're convinced Watkins is the next Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, or Jerry Rice - no way at 1:1.

Huh? How was me mentioning the fact that Cedric was a first round draft pick condescending? After all he did receive a first round grade from the NFL board so I think my statement was fairly factual.

Sorry, it came across as condescending, as in "he's so good, there's no way he got beat on that play". I saw the pocket collpase (eventually) as he forced his guy the long way around.

As to the Pic, you got me!
It must've been damn quick, because at full speed it isn't noticeable.

Generally speaking, we agree on Johnny.

Let me clarify, Russell Wilson is 5'10" would you draft him today at 1-1? I think JF will measure closer to 6'0" than 5'10". Me personally I don't draft JF 1-1 but it has nothing to w/ his height and everything to do with Bortles and Bridgewater still on the board.

Feel Better?

So, you rank JM no higher than 3rd among the QBs? If it isn't height, why so?

 

[_King_]

Your head doesn't have to move a whole lot for your eyes to scan the field ..... Its easier for a defender to pick up on head movement than it is eye movement giving away the QB's intentions. Often QB's look off defenders as well .... QB is a complicated position.




As I've stated several times , I don't know who I want at this point among those three QB's. I don't have a real favorite , they all have their warts and I'm still trying to evaluate each of them.

I think I have been one of the most objective on the entire forum on this subject along with TK ... while the majority of others have already made their decision.

I've got three issues with Bridgewater - sloppy mechanics , low level of competition & that loop in his throwing motion.

Manziel has a couple things that bother me - Plays in the spread , his height & I have to wonder how his style of play translates to the NFL when everyone on the field is a great athlete. (then I watch him shred a very good Alabama defense)

To be honest , Bortles is probably the safer pick among the three ... he's solid everywhere but not great anywhere either ... Highest downside , lowest upside.


As for the comparison of mechanics , I've shown examples (in a clean pocket) those are difficult to refute. There are dozens of images showing these QB's & Youtube has a hundred or more examples of each in video form .... go take a look and compare them for yourself. Then come back and present us with your evidence .... don't just dispute my presentation with an empty argument.



Signed:
Still undecided.

I don't agree with much if what you say regarding the qb's but i just dispute one thing. You do have to move your head to scan the field.

Have you ever had a football helmet on? It restricts your vision. You can scan a lot of the field with just your eyes, but if you're going sideline to sideline there will be some head movement.

 

[Playoffs]

We have our first love affair...

Adam Caplan ‏@caplannfl

For those questioning whether the #Browns rumors on Manziel are legit this early, Lombardi can't help his obsession. Hoyer was it last yr.

Once Manziel announces his intention today to enter this year's draft, the speculation officially starts for the #Browns to draft him.

Report: Cleveland Browns high on Johnny Manziel

Are the Cleveland Browns smoke-screening their draft plans four months in advance? Or will they put the club's future in the hands of a new coach, only to put that coach's future in the hands of Johnny Manziel?

For the second time in a month, a report has surfaced indicating the club has a strong interest in drafting the dynamic Texas A&M star who is turning pro with two years of college eligibility remaining, and that its coaching hire may be made with that in mind. This time, it's cbssports.com reporting the interest. A couple weeks ago, Sports Illustrated's Peter King wrote something along the same lines.

Add Jason LaCanfora/CBSSports to Peter King/MMQB.SI in reporting Lombardi's lust for Johnny Football.

 

[mussop]

I think both can be special, I think both also have NFL failure potential. They're both risks, for different reasons.

Unless you're convinced Watkins is the next Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, or Jerry Rice - no way at 1:1.

Sorry, it came across as condescending, as in "he's so good, there's no way he got beat on that play". I saw the pocket collpase (eventually) as he forced his guy the long way around.

As to the Pic, you got me!
It must've been damn quick, because at full speed it isn't noticeable.

Generally speaking, we agree on Johnny.

So, you rank JM no higher than 3rd among the QBs? If it isn't height, why so?

Never said I would take Watkins at 1.1.. I said if we were to trade down I still want to end up with one of those six players.

 

[disaacks3]

Never said I would take Watkins at 1.1.. I said if we were to trade down I still want to end up with one of those six players.

Fair enough, I still wouldn't take him before any of the other asterisk'd ones.