infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Anyone thinking would have.
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JJ Watt - MVP
- Thread starter Scooter
- Start date
Anyone thinking would have.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
When Rodgers wins this award this thread will go away as fast as it came. It ain't happening. I have no idea why people are so hopeful that it might.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Mischaracterize as usual. Talking about, saying it should =/= "so hopeful."
You don't think it's actually available to players from both sides of the ball?
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
There are over 10 pages in this thread of discussing his chances and a lot of debating about it. I didn't mischaracterize anything.
He isn't going to win it. Rodgers or another QB will win it. They only like to give this award to QB's and occasionally RB's. QB's simply have the biggest impact when they're having great seasons. This year Rodgers is having to good of a season for a defensive player to make enough waives to win it.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Do you know the distinction between de facto and de jure?
If people/voters think JJ has no shot against Rogers just because Rogers is a QB, then no it is not de facto available even if "in theory" it is de jure possible.
This might illustrate the difference on what's "available:"
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Yeah you mischaracterized it. Arguing he SHOULD get it is not the same as being hopeful he WILL get it. There is almost nobody in this thread who thinks he will get it.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Agree. Start removing surrounding plus players and substituting them with bottom-third guys on Rodger's offense and Watt's defense...
So remove plus players from Packer's offense...
Code:
[U][I]Position/Name (ProFootballFocus rating) Rank in position group[/I][/U]
[B]LG[/B] Josh Sitton ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+21.3[/COLOR][/B]) 4th/80
[B]WR[/B] Jordy Nelson ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+16.4[/COLOR][/B]) 2nd/111
[B]RB[/B] Eddie Lacy ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+15.5[/COLOR][/B]) 4th/55
[B]RG[/B] TJ Lang ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+15.2[/COLOR][/B]) 8th/80
[B]C[/B] Corey Linsley ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+12.4[/COLOR][/B]) 2nd/41
[B]RT[/B] Brian Bulaga ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+6.7[/COLOR][/B]) 19th/78
[B]WR[/B] Randall Cobb ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+5.9[/COLOR][/B]) 20th/111and replace them with below average players.
And remove plus players from the Texans defense...
Code:
[U][I]Position/Name (ProFootballFocus rating) Rank in position group[/I][/U]
[B]CB[/B] Kareem Jackson ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+7.1[/COLOR][/B]) 13th/113and replace him with a below average player.
Now we have a more level playing field by which to compare.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
In todays NFL where you can't touch a WR, nor hit a QB the passing yards and TD totals are CRAZY, so crazy that any stats anyone puts up besides a QB will still look small compared to these 4500+ 50+ TD seasons we see QBs have every season now.
The award is no longer Most Valuable Player, it is now Most Valuable Quarterback so NO Watt will not win it although most of the voters and fans know he deserves it.
The award is no longer Most Valuable Player, it is now Most Valuable Quarterback so NO Watt will not win it although most of the voters and fans know he deserves it.
And that's been my point. The game has been twisted so much in favor of the passing game that a competent QB is always the most valuable player on the field. Because the NFL feels that Joe Average Fan can't appreciate a game where defenses dominate (like tonight).
I would pose this question: Can't some level of the performance of these players can be attributed to playing with Aaron Rodgers? Would Jordy Nelson really be the 2nd ranked WR with say Fitz at QB? And why aren't the Texans defenders playing better with JJ Watt? That's one I really don't understand.
I guess my point is these numbers can't be evaluated in a vacuum. Everything's relative to the situation.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
I for one prefer the old school football to this modern day BS. If not for the Texans i would never watch another single game of this Powder Puff crap.
Scooter
Funky
i think you're very correct in that rodgers is certainly elevating the players around him. rodgers is an amazing quarterback, his play makes everyone's job easier and in turn they make more plays to make his stats jump off the chart. jordy may be the most under appreciated player in the league (he gets a ton of separation with his speed and routes) and would probably look good most places. IMO it's manning that traditionally does a lot more with a lot less with guys like decker and tamme, brady as well with the junk at receiver he has to deal with every year.
i think that watt IS elevating everyone else the same way. but jordy and cobb would be #1's or at least #2's most places, where as crick isnt starting for anybody else and pickett wasnt even on a team. sitton and lang are excellent guards that are even better in green bay, reed and mercilus are elevated to barely average by watt's play - completely unable to beat the gift-wrapped 1v1 opportunities afforded them. both players making everyone else better, but better than what baseline is the question.
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Folks don't like to hear it but this is TRUTH.
J.J. didn't stop us from going 2-14 or get us past Brady & Co. when we were 12-4. In order to win Most Valuable Player, he will have to get us past Luck, Flacco, and DEEP into the playoffs.
Unless you can point to a player and say "without his play we wouldn't be here" (and "here" needs to be the AFC championship game at a minimum, the SB would be better) then that guy is not the MVP.
Best defensive player in the league? Sure. Going away. But that's not the definition of MVP per the current generation of MVP voters.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Pretty sure the vote is taken after the regular season before the playoffs begin. If the Texans did have a 12-4 record this year Watt would be in much better shape to win.
nero THE zero
All Pro
Agree. Start removing surrounding plus players and substituting them with bottom-third guys on Rodger's offense and Watt's defense...
So remove plus players from Packer's offense...
Code:[U][I]Position/Name (ProFootballFocus rating) Rank in position group[/I][/U] [B]LG[/B] Josh Sitton ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+21.3[/COLOR][/B]) 4th/80 [B]WR[/B] Jordy Nelson ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+16.4[/COLOR][/B]) 2nd/111 [B]RB[/B] Eddie Lacy ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+15.5[/COLOR][/B]) 4th/55 [B]RG[/B] TJ Lang ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+15.2[/COLOR][/B]) 8th/80 [B]C[/B] Corey Linsley ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+12.4[/COLOR][/B]) 2nd/41 [B]RT[/B] Brian Bulaga ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+6.7[/COLOR][/B]) 19th/78 [B]WR[/B] Randall Cobb ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+5.9[/COLOR][/B]) 20th/111
and replace them with below average players.
And remove plus players from the Texans defense...
Code:[U][I]Position/Name (ProFootballFocus rating) Rank in position group[/I][/U] [B]CB[/B] Kareem Jackson ([B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]+7.1[/COLOR][/B]) 13th/113
and replace him with a below average player.
Now we have a more level playing field by which to compare.
Kareem Jackson is the only other positively rated player on the Texans defense!? That can't be true.
ummm... did we win that game?
i would love to see a .GIF of a play like this (55 is the center) that also contained one of nelson or lacy catch and run for touchdown. one has every rule against him, 1000lbs of offensive players attempting to keep him from making an impact, and he's still doing things that eclipse every defensive player in the past 50 years. the other guy is wearing a skirt and watching as he throws in ways that hall of fame defenders would be accused of murder for such midfield atrocities. MVP?
No...?
Then how valuable was J.J. to team success?
How many games would we have won without JJ?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Exactly.
And let's slay another unicorn, everyone gives QBs credit for making the team better around them. It's so much a given it's trite. People don't apply the same standard to other players, particularly defense, even when there is visible evidence in front of them.
Peyton has more MVPs than anyone else and he's a dick as a teammate. There are guys you (if you pay attention) are leaders and are worth far more than their individual play. DeMeco, Cushing who learned from him, JJ. Their presence inspires. Look at the stats on D with and without Cushing. Everyone (hyperbole again) knows he is washed up and has been since being pregnant but his presence makes a difference.
You QB is god and all that counts folks are missing the boat. You take disappointing AJ, JJ and Cush out of these last few years and we are Oakland.
How the heck did the Packers lose three games this year with Aaron Rodgers, a personal creation of God Himself, as QB?
Much less to the lowly 5-8 Saints?
How the heck did the Packers lose three games this year with Aaron Rodgers, a personal creation of God Himself, as QB?
Much less to the lowly 5-8 Saints?
Almost lost to the 2-11 Jets... that was before he told the fans to R E L A X
Listening to the radio on the way home... Charlie Palilo made it a point to remind everyone how we have not beaten a team with a QB worth keeping.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Excellent.
So after we beat the Colts and Ravens, that will mean that neither Andrew Luck nor Joe Flacco are worth keeping.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
You can only play who's on your schedule. I don't give a damn what we've beaten or haven't beaten.
JJ Watt is clearly the league MVP. We're Texans fans. We watch all the games. We see the impact this guy has both statistically and otherwise. The pressure he gets, the attention he gets, forcing QBs or RBs a certain way, allow for other players to make plays too. I can't even begin to count the amount of plays I've seen on defense this year that happened solely due to JJ Watt even though he'll get no credit statistical or otherwise for them.
JJ Watt is clearly the league MVP. We're Texans fans. We watch all the games. We see the impact this guy has both statistically and otherwise. The pressure he gets, the attention he gets, forcing QBs or RBs a certain way, allow for other players to make plays too. I can't even begin to count the amount of plays I've seen on defense this year that happened solely due to JJ Watt even though he'll get no credit statistical or otherwise for them.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Andre Johnson was rated the 7th/111 WRs in 2013... with '13 Matt Schaub as his QB.
Does ARod boost their play some, sure. But he has the top LG-C-RG combo in the league. Quality support helps.
My cutoff grade was >+5.0, which roughly approximated the top-third across position groups.
JJ's current rating is +76.6.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Sorry just thought this was worth repeating.
Now with Aaron Rodgers as the obvious MVP, what would AJ have been ranked?
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
How valuable is Drew Brees without the rest of the team playing well? But if it's all about the QB, why even have anyone else on the field. Why isn't all everything QB Aaron rogers fighting for his 7th MVP instead of a second? Could it be the rest of his team. May it never be. It's all about the QBs. LOL!
If think I'm of the "QB is god" mindset, you're way wrong.
But, I think, that is the mindset of the MVP voters.
In order to overcome that mindset, a defensive player has to negate the perceived effectiveness of the "QB's success".
If Watt pounds Luck into the turf on Sunday and leads us to our first ever win in Indy, that will boost his MVP chances greatly. If he plays a great part in shutting down Flacco here in Reliant and that win knocks the Ravens out of the playoffs and puts us in, it'll be hard for the QB is god" thinkers to ignore his play.
To put it another way, in today's MVP voter thinking, QBs are the champs. If we want Watt to be the champ, he's gotta knock out the current champs and take their "title"
gg no re
iggnorent
How the heck did the Packers lose three games this year with Aaron Rodgers, a personal creation of God Himself, as QB?
Much less to the lowly 5-8 Saints?
Godgers had to rush home to Olivia Munn.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
And that's OK. I'm fine with that.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Excellent.
So after we beat the Colts and Ravens, that will mean that neither Andrew Luck nor Joe Flacco are worth keeping.
Exactly!
PapaL
Loose Screw
Did you see her interview on Letterman? She was fighting that short skirt and it was winning.
http://youtu.be/s9cYj8eoOI0
But Rodgers struggled big time.
If a QB just has to win the MVP, I'd say Brady has made a much better case than Rodgers at this point.
Rodgers looked horrible against the Bills yesterday, and it's not like there is nothing to play for. The Packers are still trying to win their division. 34.3 QBR vs. the Bills? That does not scream MVP.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Hey, a QB that is replaceable with at least four or five other QBs that can have a bad game like any other QB .... that's VALUE.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Oh no, we remember folks declaring Brady done, but it wasn't as bad a stinker:
Brady - 14 comp. 23 att. 60.87% 159 yds 1 TD 2 Int. 59.9 rating 6.91 ypa
Rogers - 17 comp. 42 att. 40.48% 185 yds 0 TD 2 Int. 34.3 rating 4.40 ypa
eriadoc
Texan-American
4000 passing yards has been surpassed 123 times in the history of the game. Namath was the first, in 1967. Dan Fouts did it again in 1979 and he and Marino did it a few times each. 76 of those seasons have happened since the Texans have been in the league. 45 of them have happened in the last 5 seasons (prior to 2014). 30 TDs has been matched or surpassed 38 times in that same time frame, with 40+ TDs being 7 of those. Nothing Aaron Rodgers is doing is special anymore. He just happens to have an arguably better year this year than other QBs. He's 1st in Y/A and 1st in INTs, but he's 7th in yardage, 3rd in TDs, 12th in completion percentage, and middle of the pack in taking sacks.
The entire argument is silly. People are simply misconstruing necessity over value. Think of it this way - you would die without water in just a few days. Water is very clearly necessary to your survival. So how much do you pay for water? Do you talk about how "valuable" water is? See, one intrinsic metric involved in value is availability. If something is unique, it is more valuable. If something is necessary, but more readily available, then it has diminished value, despite its necessity. Of course, we fans in Houston think good QB play is so incredibly rare because we have never really had it. there are 10-15 QBs a year that play well enough for their teams to go to the Super Bowl, and a good 8-10 put up what used to be jaw dropping stats that are now ho-hum.
As I have said sarcastically throughout this thread, AR is soooooo valuable to his team that he can be replaced by at least four or five other QBs and the same results could be achieved. That does not negate the necessity of the QB position, but it illustrates the difference between necessity and value. That's not to say AR is not having a very good season, but it's nothing that hasn't been done repeatedly in the last 10 years. Watt is doing things that have not been done in decades, if at all.
The entire argument is silly. People are simply misconstruing necessity over value. Think of it this way - you would die without water in just a few days. Water is very clearly necessary to your survival. So how much do you pay for water? Do you talk about how "valuable" water is? See, one intrinsic metric involved in value is availability. If something is unique, it is more valuable. If something is necessary, but more readily available, then it has diminished value, despite its necessity. Of course, we fans in Houston think good QB play is so incredibly rare because we have never really had it. there are 10-15 QBs a year that play well enough for their teams to go to the Super Bowl, and a good 8-10 put up what used to be jaw dropping stats that are now ho-hum.
As I have said sarcastically throughout this thread, AR is soooooo valuable to his team that he can be replaced by at least four or five other QBs and the same results could be achieved. That does not negate the necessity of the QB position, but it illustrates the difference between necessity and value. That's not to say AR is not having a very good season, but it's nothing that hasn't been done repeatedly in the last 10 years. Watt is doing things that have not been done in decades, if at all.
