Top three all-time is tough.
Deacon Jones, Bruce Smith, Lawrence Taylor, Derrick Thomas, JJ Watt, Reggie White
And in alphabetical order here for a reason.
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JJ Watt Appreciation
- Thread starter TexansBull
- Start date
Top three all-time is tough.
Deacon Jones, Bruce Smith, Lawrence Taylor, Derrick Thomas, JJ Watt, Reggie White
And in alphabetical order here for a reason.
toss out the two OLBers and it's still way tough... and leaving off a few
Showtime100
Got JJ?
He won't be better than ever. I wish he could be, but I think it's a physical impossibility to say nothing of the incredibly high standard he has set in years past.
My humble opinion
Couldn't agree more. I could be wrong, but my potentially feeble memory recalls CnD's prognosis after JJ originally got hurt and again after the season when it was revealed he had a lot more wrong than what he was saying.
He said JJ can never be the same. CnD has been spot on throughout and IMO he's right on this one. Before the KC game I was hoping the Chiefs would double-team him based on his rep. Not so. They knew one was enough on Watt.
Not to say JJ isn't still great, he was a terror against the run this year, but he isn't. and will not be, the JJ we know and love.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Yup, JJ as we knew him was dusted after 2015. All that's come since is confirmation of this.
I hope he can come back just for sake of his presence around the team, but.....ah......I don't know. Whatever, what can we do.
dwight pugoy
Waterboy
I though he tore every tendon in that knee the way he could not put any pressure on it.
One of the best player of all time. My favorite player and named my kid after him. I wish him the best, but this is the price of football......... and yeah CTEs.
One of the best player of all time. My favorite player and named my kid after him. I wish him the best, but this is the price of football......... and yeah CTEs.
adama51
Walk-on
Deacon Jones, Man that's a name I didn't think I would hear again.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I'm curious how many of those had to rush the QB while being put in a headlock. As for Deacon Jones, I have always thought he was incredible for his era, but he got to do a lot of stuff defensemen can't do these days. You just can't compare eras.
Texas Jake
Rookie
I think JB was saying that even if you pare down the list it is hard to narrow it down to a top three, not that the OLB should be on the list.
Pretty sure Jones had to pay through at least his fair share of holding, tripping, cut/chop blocks, and other bs to try and stop him like every great does.
And I think you can compare eras. It's not always direct and can take some extra consideration. Doesn't just wipe a guy like Deacon out of the conversation for lack of effort though.
eriadoc
Texan-American
He was a helluva player, from what I've read and from what footage I've seen. But I seriously doubt he puts up multiple 25+ sack seasons in today's NFL, even if he was the beast now that he was back then. It's just a different game. He'd be one of the best, but I just don't think you can compare eras that way, in terms of stats. I agree that you can compare with certain considerations. I always hate when people say players from older eras wouldn't compete in today's NFL because of size and strength considerations. It's ridiculous to think Deacon Jones wouldn't have access to the best nutrition, supplements, weight training and information, and recovery and rehab. Put JJ Watt back 50 years ago and he wouldn't be 6'6" 290 lbs of chiseled muscle.
But technique, strategy, tactics, and scheme have all evolved as well, which means the ceiling is a bit lower in terms of defensive stats.
Agreed with the vast majority there. Wasn't making a comparison purely off of stats though. Even if you bump some of Jones' unofficial numbers down a notch for era consideration you're still hovering in per season numbers somewhere between Bruce Smith/Reggie White territory. Taking into consideration Deacon being one of the pioneers of really terrorizing quarterbacks and having 'unofficially' had the sack record himself for a number of years I think it's entirely fair play to put him in this lofty group.
And like I said to begin with, I threw those six together as a top of the mountain bunch with zero interest in actual order as it's just such a tough exercise anyway, and it always comes down to subjective picking and choosing between such all-time badasses to string together an actual ranking.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Yep, I agree, and I think that's exactly where Deacon Jones would rate. I just think JJ Watt has so far surpassed his contemporaries that it's completely fair to say he is one of the best to ever play the game. And he doesn't have a Fearsome Foursome around him.
This stuff is what makes football fun. Just wish we weren't having this conversation in the wake of that injury, ugh.
Great ongoing conversation. Looking at your list already makes me wonder if I should have said top 5. Those are some legends there.
Ted Johnson had a good point yesterday about JJ Watt. He said as great as JJ is, he is undisciplined as it pertains to his assignments in this defensive scheme, but more than makes up for it with his spectacular plays. However, it also helps to explain why this same defense could be so great last year with his absence. Everyone else is following their assignments and the scheme was working the way it was designed. Very interesting point. Not knock on JJ, but rather an honest analysis from a guy that won rings in this same defensive scheme.
The problem with JJ's absence this season is the addition of losing Mercilus, too. That's going to hurt.
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
I'd need to see how many double teams and triple teams that Lawrence Taylor, Bruce Smith, Reggie White, Michael Strahan and even Charles Haley had to beat just about every passing down. I do recall those last three guys beating their share of double blockers off the edge on the D-Line, but most of it came against a chipping tight end that came over to help. Not much triple blockers though. I remember the Dolphins offensive coordinator saying that he was hesitant to play anything but man to man on Bruce Smith, because he was confident in Dan Marino being able to handle his pass rush with great pocket awareness. Marino also had a beautiful fast release when throwing the football. One of the quickest that I've ever seen so perhaps that helped.
And teams pass a lot more in today's game than they did in those other eras when running the football was still the way to go. J.J. Watt endured a lot more pain just because of what he was facing every game. The human body can not realistically endure the physical punishment that J.J. Watt was taking in. I became concerned after that Texans vs. Bills game three or four years ago (I don't recall the year), when he got hit hard in the knee and took on the worst bruise, also the largest bruise, that I've ever seen. That was the game he also had a pick six Touchdown. It took like six months for that nasty bruise to disappear.
If J.J. Watt had played in those other eras you can make a case that he would have played a longer, more healthier career. Defensive players had more leverage as well. You could get away with several bone-crushing hits that are illegal in today's game. You do the hitting, not the other way around, with two or three 6'5 and 320+ men blocking you and applying physical force to your body.
And teams pass a lot more in today's game than they did in those other eras when running the football was still the way to go. J.J. Watt endured a lot more pain just because of what he was facing every game. The human body can not realistically endure the physical punishment that J.J. Watt was taking in. I became concerned after that Texans vs. Bills game three or four years ago (I don't recall the year), when he got hit hard in the knee and took on the worst bruise, also the largest bruise, that I've ever seen. That was the game he also had a pick six Touchdown. It took like six months for that nasty bruise to disappear.
If J.J. Watt had played in those other eras you can make a case that he would have played a longer, more healthier career. Defensive players had more leverage as well. You could get away with several bone-crushing hits that are illegal in today's game. You do the hitting, not the other way around, with two or three 6'5 and 320+ men blocking you and applying physical force to your body.
JJ is solidified with the legends as far as I'm concerned. His ceiling in this game is arguably unmatched. Only, and I mean only thing, holding his all-time ranking roll is longevity. Not his fault of course, and I don't penalize him terribly at all for it, but with another year or so of what we'd already seen and his status as number one could've been just as open and shut as his deserving to be among these few already.
And
to every last word there too..
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
The NFL keeps changing the rules for player protection, but in the process they made it even tougher for defensive players, especially the great pass rushers, to do what they do best. Also when J.J. Watt played on special teams he was called for roughing the punter twice in the same game! He was also called for roughing the quarterback a few times on great defensive plays that were legal for the past 70+ years until the last decade.
J.J. Watt's playing style would have dominated previous decades in the NFL. He'd have been better than any of those Hall of Famers you mention. The real question is how good those NFL legends would have played in today's game facing more consistent double and triple blockers? Against players much larger and athletic than the competition they faced in their era. Especially Deacon Jones. In his ERA some of the biggest offensive lineman he would face were only 6'2 and 265. Like linebacker size in today's game. Heck, I was about 6'2 and 265 my freshman year of high school. That's way too small to me.
J.J. Watt's playing style would have dominated previous decades in the NFL. He'd have been better than any of those Hall of Famers you mention. The real question is how good those NFL legends would have played in today's game facing more consistent double and triple blockers? Against players much larger and athletic than the competition they faced in their era. Especially Deacon Jones. In his ERA some of the biggest offensive lineman he would face were only 6'2 and 265. Like linebacker size in today's game. Heck, I was about 6'2 and 265 my freshman year of high school. That's way too small to me.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I think there was a sweet spot era for pass rushers. In the early '80s, the passing game really started to take off. There was a bit of it here and there before, but as a league, it really started after the Mel Blount rule (1978). So teams started really going to the pass more and more, but the defensive schemes were ahead of the offense in terms of rushing the passer. Pass rushers from the early '80s into the mid '90s (after the 1994 rule changes) had the game tailored to them. Not taking one little bit away from LT or Reggie White, but those guys benefited from both the situation and the rules.
Guys like Reggie White and LT would have adapted to whatever situation and rules were thrown at them because that's what the greats do. But when people point to stats in football, a lot of context has to be considered. And I know we're not talking about stats specifically, but that is often the measure used to assign greatness, especially as time marches on and fewer and fewer people have actually watched the player in question. I watched LT play probably 30 games in my lifetime, which is a lot, but not compared to a local Giants fan. I watched Brazile play every game that was televised during his career. I have a perspective on him that someone outside of Houston doesn't have. Not many of us have seen Deacon Jones play, but we've seen footage here and there and looked at the stats and compared him to his contemporaries.
It's just hard to compare eras.
Guys like Reggie White and LT would have adapted to whatever situation and rules were thrown at them because that's what the greats do. But when people point to stats in football, a lot of context has to be considered. And I know we're not talking about stats specifically, but that is often the measure used to assign greatness, especially as time marches on and fewer and fewer people have actually watched the player in question. I watched LT play probably 30 games in my lifetime, which is a lot, but not compared to a local Giants fan. I watched Brazile play every game that was televised during his career. I have a perspective on him that someone outside of Houston doesn't have. Not many of us have seen Deacon Jones play, but we've seen footage here and there and looked at the stats and compared him to his contemporaries.
It's just hard to compare eras.
Dude, you don't really know that. Like eriadoc pointed out, a JJ back in Deacon's day wouldn't have been a monstrous 6'6 290+ of crazy athleticism and strength ... because no one was. Of course he would have been a great player nonetheless, but to say definitively that he would've been better than everyone else ever is just blatant homerism.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I'll point you to my previous post. Why do you assume that those players from previous eras would be that small in today's era? Do you think genetics have vastly improved over the past 50 years? It takes thousands of years for genetics to markedly show change over a species. Why do you think JJ Watt would be 6'6" 290 lbs of chiseled muscle in the 1950s? That didn't exist. Sure, Watt is an outlier, but in NFL circles, he's not that much of an outlier in terms of size and strength. Mario Williams was about the same size when he was here.
Truth is, things have changed in the way elite athletes prepare, train, recover, rehab, eat, and study. Even if you set aside the prevalence of hGH, you still have way better nutrition and more importantly, nutritional information. Most of the guys you see in the NFL are tuned into that as young teens. They and/or their parents are making sure they eat right, eat a ton of calories, and work out. Kinesiology has gotten better. Athletes now train and recover with the type of focus that results in what you see out there. It's no secret or surprise that NFL players shrink (or die) once they stop playing. It's not natural for the human body to be like that. I guarantee you once Watt stops playing, he won't be 290 lbs of chiseled muscle. If he's 290, it won't look good.
Those players from bygone eras would have access to all the same nutrition, technology, techniques, supplements, and training staff that Watt has access to. It's silly to think they'd be 40 lbs smaller than all their contemporaries.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
I try not to compare players from different eras because too many factors come into play. Rule changes on where you can hit the QB for example. There may have been other changes that I didn't keep track of like holding or something else. Also, there were more scrubs like Giacomini playing against players like Deacon. In the off season some of these players were selling cars. But give Deacon the chance to have the best trainers, supplements, etc he could have been more of a beast today like you said. Just too hard to deal in hypotheticals and not fair to either player.
So here is this:
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Deacon Jones was discovered by a college scout watching a RB get rundown by a DT . That DT was Deacon Jones . If JJ played in the 50's and 60's he would be his grandpa's size . If Deacon played today he would be much bigger . They didn't count sacks in Deacon Jones day so nobody knows how many sacks he had and they outlawed his signature move , the head slap . Bottom line is they were both great players .
Max
Veteran
Well said. One of my buddy's brothers is 6'2, 210 pounds and I learned that he played nose tackle at Iowa -- it was hard for me to believe that a guy w/ a WR build was playing NT, but he weighed 295 then. I'm sure you guys have seen some of these pics before -- but it's remarkable how these guys bodies are transformed after getting off of their workout and diet regimens that they're on nowadays. http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-...ts-and-cardinals-and-he-last-played-in-2010-3
Some folks have gone pretty extensively over play-by-play and game film of pre-1982 era players and 'unofficially' he had 173.5.
Yep. Great points. And that doesn't even touch on players of yesteryear having to have regular jobs in the offseason just to make ends meet. Today's players are swimming in so much money that they can devote themselves to training 24/7/365 if they have the drive for it. Modern players are bigger, faster, and stronger because of it.
Yep, can you imagine a Bob Lilly or a Robert Brazille in todays nfl?
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
Good point. Although I was trying to go by what sizes they were during that era in which they played in. Comparing the landscape of the competition that they had faced at that time. But I kind of went off-topic in my excitement. I tried to throw in the rule changes to be fair.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
How do you pick out of those? Lol!
I'm taking JJ honestly. He's the best game changer to me.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
I'm usually not the type to throw around drastic or creative solutions invoving a business as severe and unforgiving as pro football, but JJ's discouraging outlook justifies some imaginative pondering at this point. Maybe he should just drop some weight to reduce the stresses on his back, joints, and frame, then consider a different position. Maybe 3-4 OLB, a 4-3 situational pass rusher, or ILB. Or, even more drastic, a Gronk type of TE. I feel totally half-assed suggesting such a dramatic change, but he still offers elite athletic value if he were ~30 lbs lighter and managed for long term use.
noxiousdog
Rookie
During the 70's teams averaged 370 passing plays. Now it's 570.
Deacon Jones was pretty good.
Arky
Veteran
During the 70's teams averaged 370 passing plays. Now it's 570.
Deacon Jones was pretty good.
Hey, you can't compare different eras....
eriadoc
Texan-American
Hey, you can't compare different eras....
Meh, you can do whatever you want, but it's not an apples to apples comparison.
Take the example noxious shared - Deacon Jones got 25+ sacks in a few different seasons in an era when they didn't pass nearly as much. That's a lot more sacks per dropback. Sounds great, and it is. But the quality of those dropbacks is nothing compared to today's game. When a QB dropped back to pass in those days, it was a seven step drop and the pass was almost always to the sideline. WRs didn't go over the middle very much at all. That was the domain of the defense and a few intrepid TEs. DBs would also re-route receivers and in some cases just plain clothesline them. There was no prevalence of timing routes because the DBs had free rein to wreck that timing. Today, you see QBs getting the ball out of their hands before JJ can even get there on a free release. You have four or five receivers out in the route sometimes, as opposed to two back then, or maaaaybe three. So yeah, Jones put up impressive sack totals, but it was a different game.
All that said, it's pretty evident he was the greatest pass rusher of his era. He outperformed all his contemporaries in the same environment, so that's all you really need to know about him. He'd figure out a way to do the same if he were playing in today's NFL. Great players are the ones that consistently outperform their peers. Deacon Jones was an outlier in his era and deserves respect as one of the greatest of all time. I just personally find it difficult to stack him up next to JJ in any sort of meaningful comparison. You can think Deacon was better or you can think JJ is better, and that's fine, but the comparisons just don't work, in my mind.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Its hard to compare players, but instead say something like "JJ Watt is this generations Lawrence Taylor." It's compliment to the current player, and doesn't take away the other player.
"Bone-on-bone healing is as good as it gets," said Dr. Gary Brock, an orthopedic surgeon with the Fondren Group. "When you tear a ligament, we replace it with something different from what you started off with. The rehab is longer and the recovery not as reliable. I would rather have a 'boney' injury any day of the week.
"If I get bone-to-bone healing, even if I have a plate and screws, I can still get back to normal. It doesn't affect my muscles. It doesn't (cause) later problems. If J.J. had a non-displaced fracture that could be stabilized with a couple of screws, he should be full speed ahead (next season)."
***
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/spo...-with-J-J-Watt-12271614.php?cmpid=chronstrrpc
***
OK so here's a doctor who's almost glib about Watt's injury, NP, no sweat he'll probably be good to go next year. I dunno maybe he knows what the hell he's talking about ?
"If I get bone-to-bone healing, even if I have a plate and screws, I can still get back to normal. It doesn't affect my muscles. It doesn't (cause) later problems. If J.J. had a non-displaced fracture that could be stabilized with a couple of screws, he should be full speed ahead (next season)."
***
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/spo...-with-J-J-Watt-12271614.php?cmpid=chronstrrpc
***
OK so here's a doctor who's almost glib about Watt's injury, NP, no sweat he'll probably be good to go next year. I dunno maybe he knows what the hell he's talking about ?
PapaL
Loose Screw
Or he's looking to be the next team Dr/Surgeon.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Lucky for him no experience is necessary and the only education you need is a certificate from Chuck E Cheese.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
I think the concept is accurate, a bone break is always more likely to heal even if you plate it vs a muscle or ligament tear. Docs (and correct me if I am wrong here Doc), opinion was that he thought it was highly likely that JJ didn't have just a clean bone break, that it was likely accompanied by ligament tears. So unless this other DR knows more about JJs specific injury, I would think he isn't saying anything we don't already know.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
I bet JJ is glad he is missing this fall out with McNairs comments.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Or maybe he is in agreement with most of his teammates.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
I didn't say he wasn't. Just that he didn't want to be around the drama.
bigmck
Rookie
Did you see JJ at the Astros Game come out on the field on crutches. That is a reason to be depressed. He won't play in 2018.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You a doctor?
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
The injury just happened, of course he's on crutches.....
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
so basically no news
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
You must have heard him say he was already intending to come back previously.
I hadn’t heard anything even though it was assumed he would. However with the injury and not knowing the full extent, and JJ saying he doesn’t want to leave the game sacrificing his way of living previously, if JJ would announce his retirement it would not have come as a surprised. So to some extent we didn’t know. So this is news to some of us.