Jacoby's Gotta Go/**UPDATE**Released

[Rey]

Oh, I see. So we were definitely going to score, no matter what. There's no chance that anything else could've happened. I beat A, A beat B, B beat C, thus I can beat B and C. Flawed logic.

Huh? I seriously haven't seen anyone say that.

But you kind of eliminate the possibility that we score when you turn the ball over and hand them 7 points.

Also, you change the dynamics of the game. Whether or not we actually go down and score is not relevant. Hell a three and out is better than a stupid turn over on right there.

 

[majestrate]

You haven't seen anyone say "That one mistake by Jacoby cost us the game"? You've said it. You're saying it now.

None of us knows what would've happened if that mistake hadn't happened. And I still stand by the fact that if we couldn't recover from that mistake, we weren't a SB worthy team. Period.

If you want to extrapolate like that, then why don't you simply blame our regular season play. If we had won out in the regular season, we'd have held the number 1 seed, thus might not have faced Baltimore (or at least not have played them on the road), would've been playing at home, and might've had a better chance at winning the conference.

No, no one wants to do any of that because of the animosity built up towards JacJo, so the only thing most of you do is blame him for our post-season ending sooner than we wanted.

 

[Rey]

You haven't seen anyone say "That one mistake by Jacoby cost us the game"? You've said it. You're saying it now.

None of us knows what would've happened if that mistake hadn't happened. And I still stand by the fact that if we couldn't recover from that mistake, we weren't a SB worthy team. Period.

If you want to extrapolate like that, then why don't you simply blame our regular season play. If we had won out in the regular season, we'd have held the number 1 seed, thus might not have faced Baltimore (or at least not have played them on the road), would've been playing at home, and might've had a better chance at winning the conference.

No, no one wants to do any of that because of the animosity built up towards JacJo, so the only thing most of you do is blame him for our post-season ending sooner than we wanted.

You take away a possession, spot a team seven points and change the games momentum. That's a pretty colossal f'up.

The fact that we didn't win doesn't change the magnitude of the mistake he made. Even if we had come back and won that's still a huge inexcusable mistake. What's your point?

Are you trying to say that it wasn't that big of a deal what he did?

We should always be able to overcome and win games on the road where we are making mistakes like that?

Seriously, what are y'all trying to say?

And I never said it's jacoby's fault we lost. What I have said is that he played a significant role in the loss. The effects of his dumb assery were not just isolated to that moment. The affects lingered.

Sure we could have won. We could have overcome. Ok. So what. That says absolutely nothing about what an awful play that was.

It's almost like if I shoot someone in the foot, they trip and hit their head and die.

No the shot to the foot isn't the cause of death, but had I not done that you may not have tripped and hit your head and died. Sure I could have just shot you and you could have walked a different way and went to the hospital. Sure you could have lived.

But none of that changes the fact that I shot you in the damn foot.

Forget the fact that you could have tripped anyways. Me shooting you in the foot surely didn't make it less likely. Me shooting you in the foot played a huge role in you tripping and hitting your head.

 

[majestrate]

You've had that argument with ObsiWan already. You seem to be inferring that his mistake was the cause of the loss.

What I'm reading from you is "I'm not saying his mistake was the reason we lost, but if he hadn't made the mistake, the tempo of the game wouldn't have been established*, and we would've won.".

* = I'm correcting "altering the momentum" to "setting the tone" because while a nuance, it's two different things; continue with the impression that the mistake on the PR was a game changer, but it wasn't, it was too early in the game for the momentum of the game to have been set

============

I'm saying the same thing I've been saying over the past few days/week. Yes, JacJo screwed up, but he is being unfairly scapegoated for that loss. Did his play cause detriment to our goal, yes. Was it what ultimately led to our loss? No, it most certainly was not, and that is why he doesn't deserve the all the blame for that loss. Many mistakes were made that day and they all contributed to the loss. And no one mistake that was made, which may have altered the outcome of the game, is any worse than the other.

 

[Rey]

You've had that argument with ObsiWan already. You seem to be inferring that his mistake was the cause of the loss.

What I'm reading from you is "I'm not saying his mistake was the reason we lost, but if he hadn't made the mistake, the tempo of the game wouldn't have been established*, and we would've won.".

* = I'm correcting "altering the momentum" to "setting the tone" because while a nuance, it's two different things; continue with the impression that the mistake on the PR was a game changer, but it wasn't, it was too early in the game for the momentum of the game to have been set

============

I'm saying the same thing I've been saying over the past few days/week. Yes, JacJo screwed up, but he is being unfairly scapegoated for that loss. Did his play cause detriment to our goal, yes. Was it what ultimately led to our loss? No, it most certainly was not, and that is why he doesn't deserve the all the blame for that loss. Many mistakes were made that day and they all contributed to the loss. And no one mistake that was made, which may have altered the outcome of the game, is any worse than the other.

I think you are inferring that jacoby's mistake really didn't matter and had little bearing on the loss.

Keep on believing that I guess.

 

[thunderkyss]

Absolutely NOT!!! Jacoby's boneheaded play...


They both cost this city and our team a win....

Thanks Bill, I thought it was a figment of my imagination that some of our fans are blaming Jj for that loss.

 

[Dutchrudder]

You've had that argument with ObsiWan already. You seem to be inferring that his mistake was the cause of the loss.

What I'm reading from you is "I'm not saying his mistake was the reason we lost, but if he hadn't made the mistake, the tempo of the game wouldn't have been established*, and we would've won.".

* = I'm correcting "altering the momentum" to "setting the tone" because while a nuance, it's two different things; continue with the impression that the mistake on the PR was a game changer, but it wasn't, it was too early in the game for the momentum of the game to have been set

============

I'm saying the same thing I've been saying over the past few days/week. Yes, JacJo screwed up, but he is being unfairly scapegoated for that loss. Did his play cause detriment to our goal, yes. Was it what ultimately led to our loss? No, it most certainly was not, and that is why he doesn't deserve the all the blame for that loss. Many mistakes were made that day and they all contributed to the loss. And no one mistake that was made, which may have altered the outcome of the game, is any worse than the other.

That INT that led to a Ravens 3 and out was just as bad as the turnover that gave the Ravens 7 points!!!

lol...

 

[Señor Stan]

You've had that argument with ObsiWan already. You seem to be inferring that his mistake was the cause of the loss.

What I'm reading from you is "I'm not saying his mistake was the reason we lost, but if he hadn't made the mistake, the tempo of the game wouldn't have been established*, and we would've won.".

* = I'm correcting "altering the momentum" to "setting the tone" because while a nuance, it's two different things; continue with the impression that the mistake on the PR was a game changer, but it wasn't, it was too early in the game for the momentum of the game to have been set

============

I'm saying the same thing I've been saying over the past few days/week. Yes, JacJo screwed up, but he is being unfairly scapegoated for that loss. Did his play cause detriment to our goal, yes. Was it what ultimately led to our loss? No, it most certainly was not, and that is why he doesn't deserve the all the blame for that loss. Many mistakes were made that day and they all contributed to the loss. And no one mistake that was made, which may have altered the outcome of the game, is any worse than the other.

The problem with the play was the knuckle-headedness off it. If he had caught the ball on the fly, started to head north/south and had the ball knocked loose then I could kind of see your point. A lot of folks would still be coming down on Jacoby, but it be more of a "football play."

Jacoby's mistake was a grade "A" Leon Lett-esque knuckle head move that proved he STILL didn't understand how football us supposed to be played.

I am OK with a rookie QB giving up 3 INTs. I am less ok with missed assignments and such, but that stuff happens. I am not OK with pulling a move that an 8 year would have the sense not to do in a game.

 

[Trail.Blazr]

And no one mistake that was made, which may have altered the outcome of the game, is any worse than the other.

Not true. Coach speak. A mistake that results in an easy 7 for the opponent is MUCH worse than a mistake than one that results in an opponent's 3 and out. You cannot spot a team 7 easy points in a playoff game at your opponents house, against a stingy defense, with a rookie QB and expect good things to come from it. Was Jacoby's mistake huge? yes. Was it the only mistake he made? no. Was it the only mistake made by any texan? no. But it ranked up there as the most costly and is justifiably worthy of criticism.

Now if Jacoby didn't already have a "TERRIBLE" reputation for muffing returns, to say Jacoby is being unfairly scapegoated would have enough merit to warrant consideration of anyone who cares to see Jacoby given more opportunities to learn and improve. But the reality is, he DOES have a reputation and he HAS been given more than enough opportunities to right it. So Fair or Un-Fair, ...criticism is coming. It's the nature of the beast. After so many times, even the best fans are justified to be tired of seeing it again and again. Apparently, the front office is tired of seeing it. God bless them.. it took while. If the front office has had enough, I can't blame some fans for being relieved the Jacoby era come to an end. I am one of those who desperately wanted Jacoby to become a rags-to-riches type of phenom from Lane College, but his brilliance was somehow always anchored by his blunders and personally I felt his stay was a couple of seasons too long.

Again, I liked Jacoby. Being in NC, the local radio yesterday talked of Jacoby's visit to the Panthers for 30 seconds, saying what a great return threat he is and why not bring him in? Jacoby is a two headed beast. From a Panther perspective, where you SUCK at Special Teams, Jacoby is very alluring. For fact, that's what we will all miss about him.

 

[steelbtexan]

Jacoby may not have lost the game but he was a big contributor to the cause. The sad part is everybody suspected Jacoby would wilt under the bright lights. I mean even TK will have to admit Jacoby didn't exactly step up after AJ went down.

When Jacoby went down the 3rd game of his rookie yr, it was essentially the end of his days as a consisent playmaker as a WR. One of Garys faults is that he hangs on to his guys to long. IMHO

 

[welsh texan]

People focus so much on Jacoby muffing that punt but we had a crocked AJ, a 1 handed OD, a badly nicked up Casey, and KW out there as other receiving threats, Jacoby Jones never even got himself a target. Not even once did the QB think it was an option to throw the ball at Jacoby Jones. Paid as a #2 WR, and doesn't even get targeted.

He should never have been given that contract last year, I'm not sure what the Ravens are thinking giving him a similar deal.

Glad he's gone, and always wish former players the best, there was a time when seeing Jacoby return a punt or wide open downfield was exciting and you though he could take it to the house any time, but that was years ago now. He's only ever regressed.

 

[GP]

You've had that argument with ObsiWan already. You seem to be inferring that his mistake was the cause of the loss.

What I'm reading from you is "I'm not saying his mistake was the reason we lost, but if he hadn't made the mistake, the tempo of the game wouldn't have been established*, and we would've won.".

* = I'm correcting "altering the momentum" to "setting the tone" because while a nuance, it's two different things; continue with the impression that the mistake on the PR was a game changer, but it wasn't, it was too early in the game for the momentum of the game to have been set

============

I'm saying the same thing I've been saying over the past few days/week. Yes, JacJo screwed up, but he is being unfairly scapegoated for that loss. Did his play cause detriment to our goal, yes. Was it what ultimately led to our loss? No, it most certainly was not, and that is why he doesn't deserve the all the blame for that loss. Many mistakes were made that day and they all contributed to the loss. And no one mistake that was made, which may have altered the outcome of the game, is any worse than the other.

So a guy shanks a field goal and a team loses the game because of it...I mean, we could rationalize that the offense should have scored a TD instead of relying on the kicker to win the game.

The problem to me, is that people want to say the game of football is so intricate and complex that no single play is responsible for the outcome. Yes, there are many plays in a game that are important. However, there CAN be a key play that provides a win or loss potential.

Jacoby's bad decision, and its outcome, was the key play of that game that determined the outcome. Without that play, the whole makeup of the game changes. We might end up winning the thing going away, actually. Instead, it gave them the ball at the 2. LOL. THE TWO. If that's not a key play, then I don't know what is.

It doesn't matter if the key play comes at the end or at the beginning or somewhere in the middle. If it's something that helps the opponent while also hurting our team at the same time...that's not just a "good play" by one team, such as the Ravens making a long pass completion to move the chains on 3rd and long...no, it's a swing in both directions.

When turnovers create instant points...folks, THAT is a key play that can determine games. I watched the highlights of the 2011 Maryland-Miami game that Davin Meggett played in, and the Terps won it 32-24. Miami had TWO turnovers that led to instant points for the Terps. Without those two turnovers that caused instant points, Maryland ends up losing the game and not winning it. Fact: That day, the Maryland offense wasn't going to win the game...but the Maryland TEAM was handed the win by two disastrous turnovers by Miami that the Terps turned into 14 instant points.

Jacoby impacted the game by not only turning the ball over, but by also giving the Ravens an easy TD opportunity from the 2-yard-line that affected the entire makeup of the game from that play onward. If he turns that ball over near mid-field instead of near the end zone, our defense has a chance to limit them to a FG at the worst. Instead, Jacoby lost himself in the moment and tried to do more than what he should do in that position with the magnitude of the game we were in.

It has shades of Rosencopter, yet the Rosencopter play was not nearly as bad, IMO, because it was the end of the game and Sage was trying to get the first down and seal the win with that first down play. Jacoby botched the punt at the beginning of the game when he had no earthly reason to risk something like that at THAT point in the game.

 

[ckhouston]

Any way to move this thread now that he isn't a Texan anymore? Get tired of seeing that name.

 

[Marcus]

So a guy shanks a field goal and a team loses the game because of it...I mean, we could rationalize that the offense should have scored a TD instead of relying on the kicker to win the game.

The problem to me, is that people want to say the game of football is so intricate and complex that no single play is responsible for the outcome. Yes, there are many plays in a game that are important. However, there CAN be a key play that provides a win or loss potential.

Jacoby's bad decision, and its outcome, was the key play of that game that determined the outcome. Without that play, the whole makeup of the game changes. We might end up winning the thing going away, actually. Instead, it gave them the ball at the 2. LOL. THE TWO. If that's not a key play, then I don't know what is.

It doesn't matter if the key play comes at the end or at the beginning or somewhere in the middle. If it's something that helps the opponent while also hurting our team at the same time...that's not just a "good play" by one team, such as the Ravens making a long pass completion to move the chains on 3rd and long...no, it's a swing in both directions.

When turnovers create instant points...folks, THAT is a key play that can determine games. I watched the highlights of the 2011 Maryland-Miami game that Davin Meggett played in, and the Terps won it 32-24. Miami had TWO turnovers that led to instant points for the Terps. Without those two turnovers that caused instant points, Maryland ends up losing the game and not winning it. Fact: That day, the Maryland offense wasn't going to win the game...but the Maryland TEAM was handed the win by two disastrous turnovers by Miami that the Terps turned into 14 instant points.

Jacoby impacted the game by not only turning the ball over, but by also giving the Ravens an easy TD opportunity from the 2-yard-line that affected the entire makeup of the game from that play onward. If he turns that ball over near mid-field instead of near the end zone, our defense has a chance to limit them to a FG at the worst. Instead, Jacoby lost himself in the moment and tried to do more than what he should do in that position with the magnitude of the game we were in.

It has shades of Rosencopter, yet the Rosencopter play was not nearly as bad, IMO, because it was the end of the game and Sage was trying to get the first down and seal the win with that first down play. Jacoby botched the punt at the beginning of the game when he had no earthly reason to risk something like that at THAT point in the game.

I agree with that completely.

I remember sitting in that sports bar in New Orleans with my wife, (damn near got thrown out of there, I was so f'king mad) and I told her, "THAT just cost us the ballgame!". And I remember getting on the game day thread on this board, and seeing a number of people saying exactly the same thing. It was a momentum shift, and altered the tempo of the game. It was a game changer.

Now, since it's the offseason I suppose, some want to look back on it and over analyze it to death.

 

[drs23]

I agree with that completely.

I remember sitting in that sports bar in New Orleans with my wife, (damn near got thrown out of there, I was so f'king mad) and I told her, "THAT just cost us the ballgame!". And I remember getting on the game day thread on this board, and seeing a number of people saying exactly the same thing. It was a momentum shift, and altered the tempo of the game. It was a game changer.

Now, since it's the offseason I suppose, some want to look back on it and over analyze it to death.

But, but Marcus, that's what we do in the offseason.

 

[escrimador]

Eh, he's a Raven now. Going by the history of transplanted Texans to the Ravens (Pollard, Leach), he'll probably end up being a great role player for them.

 

[thunderkyss]

When Jacoby went down the 3rd game of his rookie yr, it was essentially the end of his days as a consisent playmaker as a WR. One of Garys faults is that he hangs on to his guys to long. IMHO

Think about how much we've got invested on the offensive side of the ball. We've splurged a little here & there, Aj, Schaub, Duane Brown, Aj... & that's it.

Kubiak is pretty confident with his abilities as an offensive guru to make lemonade with a few lemons.

We've invested heavily on the defensive side of the ball from Day 1 in the Kubiak era.

So think cheap, when you think about the "possible" replacement for Jj.

Granted, there were some deals made since Jj's been here that should have made Rick Smith get off his ass... Plaxico, Santana, Ginn, decent receivers that signed for less than the $3M/yr they gave Jacoby, but I can't imagine Kubiak saying, "No, were good with David Anderson & Jacoby, don't try to sign a quality reciever."

A real GM would have had signed them & let Kubiak explain why he didn't play them.

 

[GP]

Still cannot believe we have two separate Jacoby Jones threads.

 

[NitroGSXR]

Think about how much we've got invested on the offensive side of the ball. We've splurged a little here & there, Aj, Schaub, Duane Brown, Aj... & that's it.

Kubiak is pretty confident with his abilities as an offensive guru to make lemonade with a few lemons.

We've invested heavily on the defensive side of the ball from Day 1 in the Kubiak era.

So think cheap, when you think about the "possible" replacement for Jj.

Granted, there were some deals made since Jj's been here that should have made Rick Smith get off his ass... Plaxico, Santana, Ginn, decent receivers that signed for less than the $3M/yr they gave Jacoby, but I can't imagine Kubiak saying, "No, were good with David Anderson & Jacoby, don't try to sign a quality reciever."

A real GM would have had signed them & let Kubiak explain why he didn't play them.

Splurged on Duane Brown? As far as I know he's still playing out his rookie contract. You did forget that we paid Foster rather handsomely... Daniels too. I don't see how we are financially invested on the defensive side outside of the Manning and Joseph acquistions last year... Antonio too... but everybody else pretty much was on a rookie/vet minimum contract, even Mario. We even told Dunta to take a hike. Without actually figuring it, I believe we have traditionally had more money tied up on the offense side... by far.

 

[Fili]

Still cannot believe we have two separate Jacoby Jones threads.

Exactly what I'm thinking................

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Splurged on Duane Brown? As far as I know he's still playing out his rookie contract. You did forget that we paid Foster rather handsomely... Daniels too. I don't see how we are financially invested on the defensive side outside of the Manning and Joseph acquistions last year... Antonio too... but everybody else pretty much was on a rookie contract, even Mario. Without actually figuring it, I believe we have traditionally had more money tied up on the offense side... by far.

Duane Brown was a first rounder in the old CBA. That's a bit of a splash. But look at the rounds these guys were selected...

Schaub -- 3rd (Falcons)
Foster -- UDFA
AJ -- 1st
Kevin Walter -- 7th (Giants although he never played for them)
Jacoby Jones -- 3rd
Owen Daniels -- 3rd
Joel Dreessen -- 6th (Jets)
Duane Brown -- 1st
Wade Smith -- 3rd (Dolphins)
Chris Myers -- 6th
Mike Brisiel -- UDFA
Eric Winston -- 3rd

That's 2 first round, 4 3rd round, 2 sixth round, 1 seventh round, and 2 UDFA players. We made a big trade for Schaub but those other FA acquisitions weren't exactly "splashy" ones.

Now look at the defense...

Antonio Smith -- 5th round (Cards)
Watt - 1st round
Cody -- 2nd round (Lions)
Barwin -- 2nd round
Cushing -- 1st round
Ryans -- 2nd round
Reed -- 2nd round
JJo -- 1st round (Bengals)
Manning -- 2nd round (Bears)
Kareem -- 1st round
Quin -- 4th round

That's 4 first rounders, 5 second rounders, a 4th rounder and a 5th rounder. That's a lot of talent. And 3 of those guys were big splashy FA signings.

In the Kubiak regime, we've tried to pack the talent onto the defense while the offense is full of lower round "system" guys.

 

[NitroGSXR]

Duane Brown was a first rounder in the old CBA. That's a bit of a splash. But look at the rounds these guys were selected...

Schaub -- 3rd (Falcons)
Foster -- UDFA
AJ -- 1st
Kevin Walter -- 7th (Giants although he never played for them)
Jacoby Jones -- 3rd
Owen Daniels -- 3rd
Joel Dreessen -- 6th (Jets)
Duane Brown -- 1st
Wade Smith -- 3rd (Dolphins)
Chris Myers -- 6th
Mike Brisiel -- UDFA
Eric Winston -- 3rd

That's 2 first round, 4 3rd round, 2 sixth round, 1 seventh round, and 2 UDFA players. We made a big trade for Schaub but those other FA acquisitions weren't exactly "splashy" ones.

Now look at the defense...

Antonio Smith -- 5th round (Cards)
Watt - 1st round
Cody -- 2nd round (Lions)
Barwin -- 2nd round
Cushing -- 1st round
Ryans -- 2nd round
Reed -- 2nd round
JJo -- 1st round (Bengals)
Manning -- 2nd round (Bears)
Kareem -- 1st round
Quin -- 4th round

That's 4 first rounders, 5 second rounders, a 4th rounder and a 5th rounder. That's a lot of talent. And 3 of those guys were big splashy FA signings.

In the Kubiak regime, we've tried to pack the talent onto the defense while the offense is full of lower round "system" guys.

I'm talking about money. I know we have invested heavily in the draft on defense i.e. rookie contracts. Schaub didn't cost a 3rd. He cost 50 million. Walter, Green, Moulds, Salaam, Winston... all commanded a good chunk. We spend more on offense with Kubiak and draft/minimum vet more on defense.

 

[powda]

Daniels was a 4th rounder.

Its a product of success. The offense was better faster and those players have been retained in general, grown older and are on 2nd-3rd contracts. As the younger defensive players reach their 2nd contracts i think you'll see the bulk of money used on that side of the ball.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

I'm talking about money. I know we have invested heavily in the draft on defense i.e. rookie contracts. Schaub didn't cost a 3rd. He cost 50 million. Walter, Green, Moulds, Salaam, Winston... all commanded a good chunk. We spend more on offense with Kubiak and draft/minimum vet more on defense.

You've got it all backwards.

Schaub was moderately expensive. Definitely starter money but not huge.

Walter? Green? Moulds? Salaam? Really? Those guys were all on chump-change contracts. Barely anything. Cutting those guys didn't hurt us. When Winston started to command real, big dollars, they cut him. Wade Smith? Not a big contract. Vickers? Chump change.

On Defense, though? Antonio Smith, Jonathon Joseph, Manning? Those guys got big contracts. AND 1st rounders get big contracts and all of our 1st rounders in this regime (bar Brown) are all defense. That shifts the majority of the money to the defensive side.

Re-signing Arian and Myers has only now started to shift some of the money back toward the offense but the majority of it is on the defensive side.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Daniels was a 4th rounder.

Its a product of success. The offense was better faster and those players have been retained in general, grown older and are on 2nd-3rd contracts. As the younger defensive players reach their 2nd contracts i think you'll see the bulk of money used on that side of the ball.

Ooops. You're right.

 

[Dutchrudder]

Schaub cost the Texans two 2nd round picks, not just one 3rd. If you really want to compare the cost/value of these guys, you gotta keep the units straight. Free agents should be about the money spent, not their original draft position.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

OK.

Let's get this straight...

I was saying where all these guys were drafted. I was not saying that Schaub cost us a third. I was saying that Schaub was drafted in the 3rd round by the Falcons.

I listed every starter from last year, where they were drafted, and who drafted them. That gives an idea of their originally perceived talent level.

For those that were drafted by us, it also gives an indication of their salary because it's based on their draft position.

 

[steelbtexan]

Schaub cost the Texans two 2nd round picks, not just one 3rd. If you really want to compare the cost/value of these guys, you gotta keep the units straight. Free agents should be about the money spent, not their original draft position.

Lets not let the facts get in the way of an agenda,

Fact= 1 playoff appearence in decade,

 

[ObsiWan]

Child please. They won by 7, Jacoby gave them 7. It's really simple math, unless you want to blame the defense for giving up a TD from the 2. We needed 4+ points in the 4th, which is why Yates kept throwing so much. If we were just going for a FG to tie or take the lead, the entire offense would have played differently. No way do those last two INTs happen if we are down by 3 or less. It's a whole different ball game and it takes a lot of pressure off Yates.

And Yates' pick gave them their last seven points. Chronologically speaking, we got back the 7 pts Jones spotted them. And actually, he spotted them four pts since we were up by 3 when he screwed the pooch. It was Yates' pick that gave them the 7 pts we never overcame.

After Jones' "gift" we were down 7-3 with 9 full minutes left to go in the first qtr.

There was no reason, only down by four points for Yates to be under pressure to throw. Foster had 132 yds and six on the famed Ravens' D. Yates didn't have to throw only down by four. It was when his Yates' INT - still in the first qtr - put us down by FOURTEEN is when we were forced into have-to-throw mode.

 

[Rey]

And Yates' pick gave them their last seven points. Chronologically speaking, we got back the 7 pts Jones spotted them. And actually, he spotted them four pts since we were up by 3 when he screwed the pooch. It was Yates' pick that gave them the 7 pts we never overcame.

After Jones' "gift" we were down 7-3 with 9 full minutes left to go in the first qtr.

There was no reason, only down by four points for Yates to be under pressure to throw. Foster had 132 yds and six on the famed Ravens' D. Yates didn't have to throw only down by four. It was when his Yates' INT - still in the first qtr - put us down by FOURTEEN is when we were forced into have-to-throw mode.

I seriously can't believe you are comparing tj Yates to jacoby jones here.

Do you really not see how they are different?

 

[Dutchrudder]

OK.

Let's get this straight...

I was saying where all these guys were drafted. I was not saying that Schaub cost us a third. I was saying that Schaub was drafted in the 3rd round by the Falcons.

I listed every starter from last year, where they were drafted, and who drafted them. That gives an idea of their originally perceived talent level.

For those that were drafted by us, it also gives an indication of their salary because it's based on their draft position.

Oh ok, then I would have to say that it's mostly irrelevant. Most of those guys are on their second or third contracts, which will reflect their perceived values better than their draft position.

 

[NitroGSXR]

You've got it all backwards.

Schaub was moderately expensive. Definitely starter money but not huge.

Walter? Green? Moulds? Salaam? Really? Those guys were all on chump-change contracts. Barely anything. Cutting those guys didn't hurt us. When Winston started to command real, big dollars, they cut him. Wade Smith? Not a big contract. Vickers? Chump change.

On Defense, though? Antonio Smith, Jonathon Joseph, Manning? Those guys got big contracts. AND 1st rounders get big contracts and all of our 1st rounders in this regime (bar Brown) are all defense. That shifts the majority of the money to the defensive side.

Re-signing Arian and Myers has only now started to shift some of the money back toward the offense but the majority of it is on the defensive side.

Moderately expensive? 48 million plus two seconds. Chump change contracts? They add up quick. You don't remember being forced to overpay for middle-of-the-pack FAs to get them here? I sure do. Carrying over dead cap hits was once the norm here. We essentially bought our offense while we drafted our defense. Schaub counts as a buy. The Texans did not buy Mario Williams, sold DeMeco Ryans' contract, and jettisoned Dunta while we re-up Winston, Jacoby, and even Andre Johnson.

 

[thunderkyss]

Splurged on Duane Brown? As far as I know he's still playing out his rookie contract.

We burned a first round pick on him, the only 1st round pick we've used on an offensive player? Yeah, that's splurging.

You did forget that we paid Foster rather handsomely... Daniels too. I don't see how we are financially invested on the defensive side outside of the Manning and Joseph acquistions last year... Antonio too... but everybody else pretty much was on a rookie/vet minimum contract, even Mario.

Foster didn't get paid till this year, OD a couple of years ago, I believe Schaub the year before OD... 1 payday to an offensive player a year or so, that's the trend.

Though they are on their rookie contracts, they're still high draft picks (& Mario's rookie contract was a monster over the last two years of the deal), high draft picks are valuable, hence the splurge. Mario, Demeco, Amobi,Cushing, Barwin, Kj, Watt, Reed, Mercilus, Then throw in the FAs, Weaver (big money, under-performed), Antonio, Joseph, & Manning.

We've been trying to fix the defense from day 1 Kubiak era.

We even told Dunta to take a hike. Without actually figuring it, I believe we have traditionally had more money tied up on the offense side... by far.

Dunta is the only player in Texans history to be franchised. We paid him $9M to play for us that year.

We've spent some money on the offensive side, I'm not saying we didn't. But we've spent more in money & draft picks on the defensive side as far as I can tell, without breaking out the abacus.

 

[thunderkyss]

There was no reason, only down by four points for Yates to be under pressure to throw. Foster had 132 yds and six on the famed Ravens' D. Yates didn't have to throw only down by four. It was when his Yates' INT - still in the first qtr - put us down by FOURTEEN is when we were forced into have-to-throw mode.

& then, there were two almost picks before his last one.

Don't you think someone should have said.... "wait a minute, we need to slow this kid down... Where's that Arian guy?"

 

[steelbtexan]

Jacoby = 5 yrs of wasted talent.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Moderately expensive? 48 million plus two seconds.

For a franchise QB? He's not among the highest paid QBs in the league. he's not even close. That 48 million was for a 6 year contract.

Chump change contracts? They add up quick.

Those guys you mentioned were all signed for very favorable contracts. That's why they were so easily cut. Salaam was a year to year guy. He wasn't making bank. Walter? Small contract. Dreessen? Tiny contract.

You don't remember being forced to overpay for middle-of-the-pack FAs to get them here? I sure do. Carrying over dead cap hits was once the norm here. We essentially bought our offense while we drafted our defense.

So... where are all these guys we bought? We've got as many home grown drafted starters on the offense as we do on the defense. AND those home grown offensive players are mostly later round guys.

I remember our old crappy FAs but that was the previous regime and has nothing to do with this one.

Schaub counts as a buy.

OK. So? You'd prefer the contract of Matt Cassel? He's getting $63 million over 6 years. Or a $78 million contract for Bradford? Or Matt Ryan's 6 year $72 million contract? Or how about Vick's 6 year $100 million contract?

Schaub counts as a STEAL.

The Texans did not buy Mario Williams, sold DeMeco Ryans' contract, and jettisoned Dunta while we re-up Winston, Jacoby, and even Andre Johnson.

Listen.

To me, when you say "buy an offense" that means that most of the players come from somewhere else. You didn't draft them. Drafting someone and then giving them an extension to keep them isn't "buying" them to me. If they are to you, then we have that basic semantic difference and there's no need to continue talking about it.

Our offense is stocked mostly with guys we drafted in the later rounds or brought in as UDFAs. The FAs on that side of the ball are not expensive. The one guy we traded for is not expensive when compared to other people at his position although, like any QB, he does represent a sizable chunk of change.

Our defense is stocked mostly with guys we drafted in the first and second round. The FAs on that side of the ball ARE expensive and were among the hot items at their position the year we bought them.

To me, we've spent a lot more high round draft picks and big time dollars on the defensive side than the offensive side.

 

[majestrate]

So a guy shanks a field goal and a team loses the game because of it...I mean, we could rationalize that the offense should have scored a TD instead of relying on the kicker to win the game.

The problem to me, is that people want to say the game of football is so intricate and complex that no single play is responsible for the outcome. Yes, there are many plays in a game that are important. However, there CAN be a key play that provides a win or loss potential.

Jacoby's bad decision, and its outcome, was the key play of that game that determined the outcome. Without that play, the whole makeup of the game changes. We might end up winning the thing going away, actually. Instead, it gave them the ball at the 2. LOL. THE TWO. If that's not a key play, then I don't know what is.

It doesn't matter if the key play comes at the end or at the beginning or somewhere in the middle. If it's something that helps the opponent while also hurting our team at the same time...that's not just a "good play" by one team, such as the Ravens making a long pass completion to move the chains on 3rd and long...no, it's a swing in both directions.

When turnovers create instant points...folks, THAT is a key play that can determine games. I watched the highlights of the 2011 Maryland-Miami game that Davin Meggett played in, and the Terps won it 32-24. Miami had TWO turnovers that led to instant points for the Terps. Without those two turnovers that caused instant points, Maryland ends up losing the game and not winning it. Fact: That day, the Maryland offense wasn't going to win the game...but the Maryland TEAM was handed the win by two disastrous turnovers by Miami that the Terps turned into 14 instant points.

Jacoby impacted the game by not only turning the ball over, but by also giving the Ravens an easy TD opportunity from the 2-yard-line that affected the entire makeup of the game from that play onward. If he turns that ball over near mid-field instead of near the end zone, our defense has a chance to limit them to a FG at the worst. Instead, Jacoby lost himself in the moment and tried to do more than what he should do in that position with the magnitude of the game we were in.

It has shades of Rosencopter, yet the Rosencopter play was not nearly as bad, IMO, because it was the end of the game and Sage was trying to get the first down and seal the win with that first down play. Jacoby botched the punt at the beginning of the game when he had no earthly reason to risk something like that at THAT point in the game.

I'm willing to bet that he was hoping to get the game off to a real quick start by getting a decent return. Since it was early in the game, even if he didn't go anywhere with it, the risk was minimal (clarification: I'm guessing that was what was going through his head; I am not trying to justify his action).

Anyway, I'm not saying absolve him of any blame. I'm saying that he's not the only one that screwed up in that game, he was part of a team that failed to overcome mistakes made by that same team. And as such, he does not, in-fact, deserve all the blame for that loss, nor does he deserve a majority of it; he is your scapegoat (for whomever said he's not being scapegoated).

We clearly aren't going to agree these points and regurgitating the same scenario with different flavors isn't likely to change anyone's mind.

 

[Thorn]

How on Earth did this damn thread get to 60 pages? Are we really that obsessed with JJ?

Of course, I posted in this multiple times myself before anyone feels like pointing that out. But now, from my high minded position of absurdity I shall pronounce judgement on the whole board.

So, let's all agree to stop posting in this damn thread and let it slip off the front page.

 

[NitroGSXR]

For a franchise QB? He's not among the highest paid QBs in the league. he's not even close. That 48 million was for a 6 year contract.



Those guys you mentioned were all signed for very favorable contracts. That's why they were so easily cut. Salaam was a year to year guy. He wasn't making bank. Walter? Small contract. Dreessen? Tiny contract.



So... where are all these guys we bought? We've got as many home grown drafted starters on the offense as we do on the defense. AND those home grown offensive players are mostly later round guys.

I remember our old crappy FAs but that was the previous regime and has nothing to do with this one.



OK. So? You'd prefer the contract of Matt Cassel? He's getting $63 million over 6 years. Or a $78 million contract for Bradford? Or Matt Ryan's 6 year $72 million contract? Or how about Vick's 6 year $100 million contract?

Schaub counts as a STEAL.



Listen.

To me, when you say "buy an offense" that means that most of the players come from somewhere else. You didn't draft them. Drafting someone and then giving them an extension to keep them isn't "buying" them to me. If they are to you, then we have that basic semantic difference and there's no need to continue talking about it.

Our offense is stocked mostly with guys we drafted in the later rounds or brought in as UDFAs. The FAs on that side of the ball are not expensive. The one guy we traded for is not expensive when compared to other people at his position although, like any QB, he does represent a sizable chunk of change.

Our defense is stocked mostly with guys we drafted in the first and second round. The FAs on that side of the ball ARE expensive and were among the hot items at their position the year we bought them.

To me, we've spent a lot more high round draft picks and big time dollars on the defensive side than the offensive side.

The players I listed were all signed and released by this regime. I haven't spoken of any Morlon Greenwoods here or anything. Oh yeah... don't let me forget to add the David Carr extension. Did Walter not take a paycut this past off season and wasn't Andre Davis was one of the most well-paid backup WRs in the NFL.

Cassell? Bleh. I'm a big Schaub fan. There is nobody else I want captain-ing my team. 48 million AND two second round picks is expensive anyway you look at it. Money that I was GLAD that we paid. What other QBs are making now matters none to what we paid for Schaub then. It was pretty in line with one of the better contracts after factoring in the dollar value of those two second round picks. Vick's contract was an abnormality and should not count.

Failed first round draft pick on the DL in several tries before finally buying one in Antonio Smith. Same with us failing with CB and SS in the later rounds before we bought Joseph and Manning.

It does sound like you and I are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with that. If you don't want to talk about it then that's fine but please do save the condescending tone for somebody else. I am here to talk football. And yes I do think extending them matters... especially when we pay them among the top earners at their positions.

 

[ObsiWan]

Huh? I seriously haven't seen anyone say that.

But you kind of eliminate the possibility that we score when you turn the ball over and hand them 7 points.

Also, you change the dynamics of the game. Whether or not we actually go down and score is not relevant. Hell a three and out is better than a stupid turn over on right there.

oh yeah... we had just been held to a FG on the previous possession and had Jscoby got the hell out of the way - as he dang well should have - we would have been inside the 20. Probably inside the ten. Kubiak would have gone conservative and we most likely would have gone 3 and out and punted it back. What are the true odds that a Turk gets off 55-yd boomer at that point? Not likely.

Truth is in the first qtr two bonehead plays and KJ getting beat by a pretty good pass and catch gave the Ravens all but three of the pts they got that day. Further, our offense, with the best RB in the playoffs and the best WR in the game and a probowl quality TE could not muster more than ten points in the remaining 45 minutes of the game.

 

[Rey]

Further, our offense, with the best RB in the playoffs and the best WR in the game and a probowl quality TE could not muster more than ten points in the remaining 45 minutes of the game.

The first time we played Baltimore we ended up scoring 1 point more than what we did in the Play-offs. And that was with Schaub in the game, no bone headed special teams plays and no 3 INT's. Albeit Schaub did take 4 sacks and had the fumble, but we played much cleaner as a football team.

Truth is, the Ravens have a pretty damn good defense.

 

[Lucky]

Truth is, the Ravens have a pretty damn good defense.

Seconded. But, they will be missing a very big part of that defense this season (Terrell Suggs). Let's see how they respond to that.

 

[BullBlitz]

Seconded. But, they will be missing a very big part of that defense this season (Terrell Suggs). Let's see how they respond to that.

We will be missing a bigger part of our offensive line. Let's see how we respond to that.

 

[Lucky]

We will be missing a bigger part of our offensive line. Let's see how we respond to that.

Really? You think Suggs will be more easily replaced than Winston and Brisiel? Suggs is one of the top 10 defenders in the league. Winston and Brisiel are good ZBS linemen. Pretty sure the Ravens are smarting more than the Texans.

 

[Rey]

Really? You think Suggs will be more easily replaced than Winston and Brisiel? Suggs is one of the top 10 defenders in the league. Winston and Brisiel are good ZBS linemen. Pretty sure the Ravens are smarting more than the Texans.

Agreed.

Suggs didn't do a whole lot against us, but overall he has been a beast and that is going to be one less weapon they have.

 

[GP]

I'm willing to bet that he was hoping to get the game off to a real quick start by getting a decent return. Since it was early in the game, even if he didn't go anywhere with it, the risk was minimal (clarification: I'm guessing that was what was going through his head; I am not trying to justify his action).

The risk was minimal? He was fielding it on the bounce, with gunners in his face, and it was somewhere near the 10 or 15...and that's "minimal risk?"

Look, I know we all tend to lock into our positions and debate it through to the end...but there's now way "the risk was minimal" is accurate.

Everybody keeps saying how close a game it was. How points were at a premium that day. Well, then what sense does it make to spot a team the 2-yard line and an easy 6 that day?

It was a huge play. It had a two-way swing effect. It kept us from having a possession to run clock and maybe score. And it gave them 7 points. Instantly.

Coaches seem to think Jacoby is a liability and not an asset. The playoff blunder was what did him in. And the economics of the cap, as well, which added an extra incentive to end the relationship.

 

[TimeKiller]

Check out what Ravens fans have to say about it.....not exactly thrilled lol....
http://www.ravens24x7.com/forum/showthread.php?91197-Ravens-sign-Jacoby-Jones/page2

 

[steelbtexan]

The players I listed were all signed and released by this regime. I haven't spoken of any Morlon Greenwoods here or anything. Oh yeah... don't let me forget to add the David Carr extension. Did Walter not take a paycut this past off season and wasn't Andre Davis was one of the most well-paid backup WRs in the NFL.

Cassell? Bleh. I'm a big Schaub fan. There is nobody else I want captain-ing my team. 48 million AND two second round picks is expensive anyway you look at it. Money that I was GLAD that we paid. What other QBs are making now matters none to what we paid for Schaub then. It was pretty in line with one of the better contracts after factoring in the dollar value of those two second round picks. Vick's contract was an abnormality and should not count.

Failed first round draft pick on the DL in several tries before finally buying one in Antonio Smith. Same with us failing with CB and SS in the later rounds before we bought Joseph and Manning.

It does sound like you and I are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Nothing wrong with that. If you don't want to talk about it then that's fine but please do save the condescending tone for somebody else. I am here to talk football. And yes I do think extending them matters... especially when we pay them among the top earners at their positions.

1. This regime lacks in certian areas. But they look like HOF's compared to the Casserly regime. Gald to see there are no more Greenwood, Robaire Smith, Wade etc... contracts.

2. The Schaub contract is a good value. How much would the Texans have to pay those two 2nd rd draft picks. You can subtract that $$$$ value from Schaubs contract and suddenly Schaubs contract looks like a much better value.

3. Crappy drafting on the defensive side of the ball by both the Casserly and Rick/Gary regimes has been the root of the problems with the Texans on field product. They've wasted many high draft picks on that side of the ball. The main reason the defense has improved is that BoB spent $$$$ getting the top tier FA's in the secondary last yr (JoJo/Manning,finally getting a quality S for the 1st time since the teams inception. ) and Wade did a great job telling Rick who to draft.

Hopefully Wade stays, Gary keeps improving at his job. BoB re-ups Barwin,D.Brown,Quin etc.. and hopefully Rick structures the contracts so the Texans can add 1 tier one FA each yr, like the Eagles do.

 

[thunderkyss]

How on Earth did this damn thread get to 60 pages? Are we really that obsessed with JJ?

Thanks alot. I finally got this thread derailed & you bring us back home.

Way to go old timer.

 

[thunderkyss]

The main reason the defense has improved is that BoB spent $$$$ getting the top tier FA's in the secondary last yr (JoJo/Manning,finally getting a quality S for the 1st time since the teams inception. ) and Wade did a great job telling Rick who to draft.

Again, I think this line of thinking is getting way out of line here.

Jjo & Manning are the same caliber FAs we've always signed since Smith has been here. Antonio Smith, Sean Cody, Wade Smith..... Same guy, except Jjo played better than even his old team thought he was capable of. He played like a Tier 1 guy in 2012, before that & at the time of our signing him, he was a tier 2 guy.

The biggest difference here, is that we made 2 "big" acquisitions, where we usually only make 1.

Then Wade telling Rick who to draft? He must have been around in '09 when we picked up Cushing & Barwin, because I don't see a lot of difference in the caliber/type of player between them & Watt & Reed.

I know everyone is down on Kj, he's not the "play-maker" we want him to be, but he's a solid pick, same as Ben Tate, Duane Brown, Glover Quin, etc... guys Rick Smith drafted before Wade got here that fit the same mold as Jj Watt & Brooks Reed.