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Is the OL fixed?

Is the OL fixed?


  • Total voters
    62

Dejaview

Rookie
It's not just draft capital, it's also the FA market.

Other teams are making moves in the draft/FA markets.

Texans are doing what the Texans have done since 2010.

Speaking of being clear, clearly the Texans philosophy has lead to mediocrity over the last decade and nothing has changed since Gaine has become GM.
Lol if anything is clear it is BG going against the past grain To Be Clear and change/construct a team with a clearly defined physical and mental type of player. Past lack of plans, BPA and FA shots that gave BG a gutted roster is what he clearly means when he states HIS plan. BG has only one full season under his belt. So you think he clearly already fits into the past mediocrity?
 

TheRealJoker

Hall of Fame
It's not just draft capital, it's also the FA market.

Other teams are making moves in the draft/FA markets.

Texans are doing what the Texans have done since 2010.

Speaking of being clear, clearly the Texans philosophy has lead to mediocrity over the last decade and nothing has changed since Gaine has become GM.
They did finish 11-5 his first year as GM without 1st/2nd round picks. I wouldn't give him the "mediocre" tag just yet.
 

cuppacoffee

Resident Grouch
I think as the NFL progresses towards spread offenses, the chances of picking up a solid left or right tackle via FA is going to get tougher if not impossible. These two positions will become must pay. Teams may not wait for top performing tackles to become FA's to initiate talks.....those talks probably start happening before the final year arrives.

Another spot that will become highly cherished.....the OL Coach. Teams are going to have to find their tackles in the draft and completely groom them. The only way this is going to be successful, teams better have a great instructor who can teach technique and implement an offensive blocking scheme. Me personally, I'd have no issue seeing teams pursuing great OL coaches for the college ranks since most of them have been completely indoctrinated in creating schemes for the spread offense.

I think the Texans possess some very good upside players for the OL but due to OB's inability to decide exactly what type of offense he wants, the personnel to execute his offense, and the OL Coach to both teach and execute the plan then this will continue to be a cluster duck of hope.

Unfortunately, Howard and Davenport are going to have to be taught to man the LT position. Khalil should be there as the veteran mentor and backup when needed but mostly as that second coach on the sidelines who can quickly be in their ear.

I'd be truly relieved to see Rankin listed as the teams LG going into off-season work.

OB and Devlin must identify their lineman and their OL position and put the onus on them to learn and master the position before making them a jack of all trades along the OL.

Texans have 10 OL who need to learn and master the position.

LT- Davenport, Khalil, Howard
LG- Rankins, Kelemete
OC- Martin, Mancz
RG- Fulton, Mancz
RT- Henderson, Scharping

**I'm not concerned in regards to Mancz, he's probably the best Center on the roster and easily can cover RG with little to no downgrade.**

Anyhow, this group would be required, in my world, to take every snap at these assigned positions until Pre-Season Game 3. Give each of them equal reps with the 1st team to better assess their abilities. This would simply become Devlin's last opportunity, and maybe even OB's, to prove they have what it takes to coach up these athletes and instill a scheme they will stick with through the season.

OT - I couldn't find the post but I am pretty sure I read where cnnd was very concerned with Mancz's mounting injuries.

Maybe the reason for the asterisks you included?

I was disappointed that we missed the boat on OL coach Harry Hiestand. Chicago just signed two udfa o-lineman from Notre Dame. https://athlonsports.com/nfl/notable-undrafted-free-agents-signed-chicago-bears-2019

Probably Hiestands influence. Interesting to see how they pan out.

edit; I found this: "If you search this site for posts on "Mancz" by "CloakNNNdagger," you will have your answer. But as a condensed but detailed version.:

He was signed as an UDFA in 2015 after not being able to participate in the Combine because he was still rehabbing from shoulder surgery (he actually had undergone a total of 3 such surgeries for repeated subluxation of his shoulder......for torn labrum, i.e., he has torn the labrum of his right shoulder 3 times already). He played 3 games that year and was IR'ed with a knee injury that required surgery. He came back in 2016 to replace IR'ed Nick Martin...........and had a very good year. It was all down hill after that in that he returned with continuous and progressive problems with both his knee and his shoulder through 2017 and 2018, injuries that have limited his play and effectiveness."

:coffee:
 
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Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
It's not just draft capital, it's also the FA market.

Other teams are making moves in the draft/FA markets.

Texans are doing what the Texans have done since 2010.

Speaking of being clear, clearly the Texans philosophy has lead to mediocrity over the last decade and nothing has changed since Gaine has become GM.

My question about the off season …. Were they trying to improve on 11-5 or what ?

They took guys who will probably be solid NFL players …. but wont help immediately , they took a step back … in hopes that they take a bigger step forward down the line ?

None of those players drafted were really plug and play …. which you expect from your #1's and #2's …. at least.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Yeah this rookie class just walked into the building a few days ago not to mention new signings.
Let's give it fair hearing.

If Howard and Johnson Jr. don't contribute out of the gate …. what does that say ?

Especially if players taken at their position after them are contributing from the jump …. or players you could have had at the opposite position play like studs and these two are holding clip boards ?
 

Texansphan

All Pro
If Howard and Johnson Jr. don't contribute out of the gate …. what does that say ?

Especially if players taken at their position after them are contributing from the jump …. or players you could have had at the opposite position play like studs and these two are holding clip boards ?
Whelp, Aaron Rogers was held back 3 years right? 23rd pick, all from memory...
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Left me feeling like Tricky Rick was still at the wheel of this franchise ….again.
As if we needed more evidence as to how much input BO'b has in selecting players. Ricky is gone, but the draft is the same.

Two things though. We don't know if these two will start right away or not. Whether we think they are ready to or not doesn't matter.

Eric Fisher wasn't ready to start, but did. & he was a #1 overall pick.

Let's see how they divy up snaps in camp.
 
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TheRealJoker

Hall of Fame
As if we needed more evidence as to how much input BO'b has in selecting players. Ricky is gone, but the draft is the same.

Two things though. We don't know if these two will start right away or not. Whether we think they are ready to or not doesn't matter.

Eric Fisher wasn't ready to start, but did. & he was a #1 overall pick.

Let's see how they divt up snaps in camp.
I wouldn’t say the draft is the same. Rick Smith did not have the baseline height/weight/speed measurables that Gaine holds strictly to when drafting. Smith valued production of course and whether a player was high character/captain. But he didn’t put as high a value on drafting guys under ideal measurables to succeed at the position. He got away with it at times (particularly first round ex: Hopkins less than ideal measurables). But it hurt the team and ST in particular with all the mid/late round busts and created a top heavy talent roster.

I think Gaine’s approach will lead to a more well rounded team with superior depth top to bottom. Doesn’t hurt he inherited a franchise QB of course :)
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
I forget , how far removed from a Lombardi were the Packers when they drafted Rodgers ? …. How far removed from the NFC Championship game ?
I believe they were a playoff team but lost in WC round
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
If I were even halfway inclined I might find other examples.
Point is, it is not unprecedented for first round draftees to not play immediately.
what?
:uprights:

I never should have come back to read idiocy
 

HaveMercy

Passing Through
A few folks here have a very strong belief that round 1 and round 2 selections must be 1st day starters, otherwise the draft was a bust. Am I saying that right?

I'm not in agreement with that as a blanket statement, not even close. Getting the right guys in place for the medium and long haul is vastly more important. The guys in rounds 1 & 2 may need some coaching and seasoning, and I'm okay with that provided it doesn't take too long.

From what I can see from the vantage point of early May, Howard and Scharping are going to be good over the long haul. I like that a lot. If they need some seasoning, coaching, practice, and S&C work before they start, I'm okay with that, yes and indeed.

So, it's nonsense to say that they're busts if they don't start the season opener.

Play the best players the first week. If that means Howard and Scharping are a bit behind and don't start initially, I have little doubt that they'll pass the guys ahead of them in short order.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
A few folks here have a very strong belief that round 1 and round 2 selections must be 1st day starters, otherwise the draft was a bust. Am I saying that right?

I'm not in agreement with that as a blanket statement, not even close. Getting the right guys in place for the medium and long haul is vastly more important. The guys in rounds 1 & 2 may need some coaching and seasoning, and I'm okay with that provided it doesn't take too long.

From what I can see from the vantage point of early May, Howard and Scharping are going to be good over the long haul. I like that a lot. If they need some seasoning, coaching, practice, and S&C work before they start, I'm okay with that, yes and indeed.

So, it's nonsense to say that they're busts if they don't start the season opener.

Play the best players the first week. If that means Howard and Scharping are a bit behind and don't start initially, I have little doubt that they'll pass the guys ahead of them in short order.
It's a 'now' generation
 

beerlover

Hall of Fame
Late to this topic, but it’s smart to have a pretty good idea year three, to ink future foundation pieces as quickly and cost effective as possible. If your on the ledge after year four your about to lose them, have lost them or going to overpay to keep them. Simple math, even a beer nerd can understand :wesmantexanfan:
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
A few folks here have a very strong belief that round 1 and round 2 selections must be 1st day starters, otherwise the draft was a bust. Am I saying that right?
That's not the way I understand their argument. They're saying ready to start week 1 should be on the list of qualifiers of a 1st/2nd round pick.

Unless he's a QB.

I don't think BO'b has the balls not to start them so I think it's a moot point. I just hope BO'b & Devlin put them in position they can handle. If Howard isn't ready to play LT in the NFL don't put him at LT. Same with Sharping & Johnson.
 

HaveMercy

Passing Through
That's not the way I understand their argument. They're saying ready to start week 1 should be on the list of qualifiers of a 1st/2nd round pick.

Unless he's a QB.

I don't think BO'b has the balls not to start them so I think it's a moot point. I just hope BO'b & Devlin put them in position they can handle. If Howard isn't ready to play LT in the NFL don't put him at LT. Same with Sharping & Johnson.
No matter how ready Howard and Scharping are for game 1, they'll be more ready week by week. It's a learning curve. Preparing and starting those guys will be much more a process than an event.

I happen to think that OB, Gaine, and Devlin are well aware that their job security is impacted by these decisions. The only way to get ahead is to take some risks, but how much to take is more art than science. If you take too much risk and it backfires, you're possibly gone. If you don't take enough risk and it backfires, you're possibly gone. It can be a tough business.

All that said, I don't think OB will force a start on Howard and/or Scharping if it looks too risky. The new guys' readiness becomes a moot point, though, if the alternative starters look REALLY bad. And not starting them will be a lot easier if the alternative starters look pretty good.
 
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Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
They did finish 11-5 his first year as GM without 1st/2nd round picks. I wouldn't give him the "mediocre" tag just yet.
Beneficiaries of a really weak schedule and some very Questionable decisions by a few opposing coaches. But yeah he played a major part in us going 11-5.
 

HaveMercy

Passing Through
We also have to remember that the other OLinemen, including Kalil, are well aware that bringing Howard and Scharping on board means at least two of their careers are on the line. Those guys will be giving it all they've got and may just surprise us. That would be nice.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
A few folks here have a very strong belief that round 1 and round 2 selections must be 1st day starters, otherwise the draft was a bust. Am I saying that right?

I'm not in agreement with that as a blanket statement, not even close. Getting the right guys in place for the medium and long haul is vastly more important. The guys in rounds 1 & 2 may need some coaching and seasoning, and I'm okay with that provided it doesn't take too long.

From what I can see from the vantage point of early May, Howard and Scharping are going to be good over the long haul. I like that a lot. If they need some seasoning, coaching, practice, and S&C work before they start, I'm okay with that, yes and indeed.

So, it's nonsense to say that they're busts if they don't start the season opener.

Play the best players the first week. If that means Howard and Scharping are a bit behind and don't start initially, I have little doubt that they'll pass the guys ahead of them in short order.

That's what's being said now. Listen to a lot of these experts, ex coaches and ex players. They've been saying this for quite some time now.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
We also have to remember that the other OLinemen, including Kalil, are well aware that bringing Hiward and Scharping on board means their careers are on the line.
I still believe it should be near impossible for Kalil to make the team. He's got to show All-Pro ability in TC, or a couple of guys get injured in training camp.

Better than Davenport can't be the bar. All-Pro ability or it's time to go forward with Howard/Sharping.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
A few folks here have a very strong belief that round 1 and round 2 selections must be 1st day starters, otherwise the draft was a bust. Am I saying that right?

I'm not in agreement with that as a blanket statement, not even close. Getting the right guys in place for the medium and long haul is vastly more important. The guys in rounds 1 & 2 may need some coaching and seasoning, and I'm okay with that provided it doesn't take too long.

From what I can see from the vantage point of early May, Howard and Scharping are going to be good over the long haul. I like that a lot. If they need some seasoning, coaching, practice, and S&C work before they start, I'm okay with that, yes and indeed.

So, it's nonsense to say that they're busts if they don't start the season opener.

Play the best players the first week. If that means Howard and Scharping are a bit behind and don't start initially, I have little doubt that they'll pass the guys ahead of them in short order.

I'm not saying that they are busts …. What I am saying is

A) There may have been better options that do immediately contribute. They could have had the first corner , Wr or RB off the board and still likely had both the OT's they took … and if not similar players.

B) The guys they will sit behind were terribad. - They aren't sitting behind Bret Favre , more like sitting behind Ryan Mallet. In that case , I do expect that they start from the get go.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
That's not the way I understand their argument. They're saying ready to start week 1 should be on the list of qualifiers of a 1st/2nd round pick.

Unless he's a QB.
Not really my argument …. its more about who's in front of them. Bret Favre or …. Chris Weinke.
We've got a couple Weinke's in front of these guys ….


I don't think BO'b has the balls not to start them so I think it's a moot point. I just hope BO'b & Devlin put them in position they can handle. If Howard isn't ready to play LT in the NFL don't put him at LT. Same with Sharping & Johnson.
We'll have to see … I really don't want an OT , especially a blindside protector out there if he's not ready. It took us 18 years to get a decent QB … I don't want him broken.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
How many asterisks did Peyton Manning get for playing the AFC South most of his career? It’s the NFL. 11-5 is impressive
The Colts were winning consistently no matter the schedule . And I didn't say it wasn't impressive . I'm saying BG didn't do anything special to help thos team achieve that type of record. The Texans went 10-6 and 12-4 and nobody gave RS any type of praise.
 

IDEXAN

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
A few folks here have a very strong belief that round 1 and round 2 selections must be 1st day starters, otherwise the draft was a bust. Am I saying that right?

I'm not in agreement with that as a blanket statement, not even close. Getting the right guys in place for the medium and long haul is vastly more important. The guys in rounds 1 & 2 may need some coaching and seasoning, and I'm okay with that provided it doesn't take too long.

From what I can see from the vantage point of early May, Howard and Scharping are going to be good over the long haul. I like that a lot. If they need some seasoning, coaching, practice, and S&C work before they start, I'm okay with that, yes and indeed.

So, it's nonsense to say that they're busts if they don't start the season opener.

Play the best players the first week. If that means Howard and Scharping are a bit behind and don't start initially, I have little doubt that they'll pass the guys ahead of them in short order.
Maybe not start immediately in the season opener in September, nevertheless a teams first round Draft pick should make a significant contribution his rookie year otherwise he's more of a project and that's not what most folks expect from a first rounder.
 

HaveMercy

Passing Through
I'm not saying that they are busts …. What I am saying is

A) There may have been better options that do immediately contribute. They could have had the first corner , Wr or RB off the board and still likely had both the OT's they took … and if not similar players.


HaveMercy: I disagree with just about everything you've said. Wide receivers & Cornerbacks typically need at least some seasoning and are most often worked in gradually. A really good running back can always run but still must learn the blocking schemes and, just as importantly, how to stay back and pick up rushers (especially with our OL being a work in progress). That doesn't usually happen by the season opener, either.

And, for the O Linemen, I think they got the guys they wanted and didn't want to roll the dice. I'm assuming that their top 3 we're Dillard, Howard, and Scharping, with Dillard and Howard being near equals on their draft board and Scharping not far behind. With the OL being the biggest area of need by far, much more so than CB, WR, or RB, they did the prudent thing.
 


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