HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
I loved Harris and Waters. Add Too Tall and Harvey Martin. The old Pittsburgh v. Dallas games were classic.
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I loved Harris and Waters. Add Too Tall and Harvey Martin. The old Pittsburgh v. Dallas games were classic.
brewhaus
Rookie
I think Irvin deserves it. But, I also think Pete Rose deserves to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Both athletes had questionable lifestyles. Both athletes were unsurpassed in their ability to play their sport.
Texas_Thrill
Veteran
man this board is getting very racial across alot of lines lately.
I'm of the opinion Monk is going to suffer b/c he was never the DOMINANT.
Irvin was dominant even against double coverage at times.
This just comes down to whether you like the man off the field.
I mean seriously how many players in all sports were not character guys.
I don't like Ty Cobb either but I'd never not vote him in b/c of his ignorance. I wouldn't not vote OJ in b/c of questionable actions.
FOCUS ON THE FIELD.
I'm of the opinion Monk is going to suffer b/c he was never the DOMINANT.
Irvin was dominant even against double coverage at times.
This just comes down to whether you like the man off the field.
I mean seriously how many players in all sports were not character guys.
I don't like Ty Cobb either but I'd never not vote him in b/c of his ignorance. I wouldn't not vote OJ in b/c of questionable actions.
FOCUS ON THE FIELD.
Don't the baseball guys have different rules, standards than membership in the football HOF has ?I think Irvin deserves it. But, I also think Pete Rose deserves to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Both athletes had questionable lifestyles. Both athletes were unsurpassed in their ability to play their sport.
axman40
Hall of Fame
TY COBB
Crimes: Assault (too many to count), murder
Its impossible to list all Tys acts of violence. But here are a few. 1907: Slapped a black groundskeeper; when the mans wife protested, he grabbed her by the neck. 1908: Assaulted a black laborer; shoved a black chambermaid down the stairs. 1909: Slapped a black elevator operator for being insolent. When a night watchman (also black) broke it up, Cobb slashed him several times with a knife. Fined $100. 1912: Pistol-whipped a would-be mugger to death; pummeled a crippled fan. 1914: Threatened a butcher with a gun and pistol-whipped his black assistant.
http://www.maximonline.com/articles/index.aspx?a_id=4459
A would be mugger does not give race of said mugger.
CowboysTexansFan
Waterboy
TY COBB
Crimes: Assault (too many to count), murder
Its impossible to list all Tys acts of violence. But here are a few. 1907: Slapped a black groundskeeper; when the mans wife protested, he grabbed her by the neck. 1908: Assaulted a black laborer; shoved a black chambermaid down the stairs. 1909: Slapped a black elevator operator for being insolent. When a night watchman (also black) broke it up, Cobb slashed him several times with a knife. Fined $100. 1912: Pistol-whipped a would-be mugger to death; pummeled a crippled fan. 1914: Threatened a butcher with a gun and pistol-whipped his black assistant.
http://www.maximonline.com/articles/index.aspx?a_id=4459
A would be mugger does not give race of said mugger.
I knew about all those incidents, but none of them support kbourda's statement that Cobb killed a black man in a hate crime. The incident with the mugger involved Cobb being attacked by three men while Cobb was with his wife. It's not clear that he even killed the mugger.
brewhaus
Rookie
It seems that is the case. Most baseball fans consider personal character a decisive factor in HOF induction.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Depends on what your definition of personal character is. But one thing is for sure in all sports, you bet on the game, while involved, and you will not be going to the HOF. Irvin did not, Rose did.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I agree! Irvin should've been a first ballot HOFer. I've never been fond of the guy, but he was a heck of a ball player. It just goes to show that off the field antics DO effect the outcome of the voters.
brewhaus
Rookie
That's a fact.
I guess if HOF inductions were done the same way in football, then we could look for Kurt Warner to make it in.
I am far from a Irvin fan or a Dallas lover (always root against them...except when they play the Titans now), but Irvin into the HoF is a no-brainer to me. It's not even a question in my book. Dude was a great WR and a pivotal part of the Cowboys' three Super Bowl championships in the '90's.
I'm surprised DT is not in, too.
BINGO!
I do, too. It should be about the game, because none of these players are perfect. A lot of them just don't get caught.
I'm surprised DT is not in, too.
BINGO!
I do, too. It should be about the game, because none of these players are perfect. A lot of them just don't get caught.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Unfortunatley it takes a precedent to implement common sense. Thankfully a baseline was in place when Rose's situation came up.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
That pretty much says it. How there can be multiple pages of debate on Irvin is incredible IMO. Dude was a playmaker as a WR and a rarity among WR's, a leader of the O.
TwinSisters
Veteran
He should have to wait.
Because he is a crybaby, that's why he is in now.
There are better players than him and he will always be known as second chair to Jerry Rice. So "dominance" was never achieved.
Because he is a crybaby, that's why he is in now.
There are better players than him and he will always be known as second chair to Jerry Rice. So "dominance" was never achieved.
Huge
All Pro
Wow...having to be known as second chair to Jerry Rice. That must sting.
Ask Darrell Green or Deion Sanders if Irvin ever achieved dominance.
TwinSisters
Veteran
Deion? Another baby endorsing a baby.
If you followed the Cowboys at all... if you are going to toss "off field " behaviour THEN Harvey Martin should be in before Irvin.
BUT noooo... Harvey ain't around to cry about it, so he gets the shaft and has to sit out, so the baby can get his milk.
Personally, for the 90's he would be playing slot or riding the pine on my team. Behind Carter and Rice.
Second team with Tim Brown.
----
But on the bright side of things... Lynn Swann doesn't have to feel so lonely in the Hall now. He's got another 3 pump chump to sit with.
BattleRedToro
Thread Killer
I believe Michael Irvin deserved to be in the NFL Hall of Fame and the Pete Rose analogy is specious because although I also believe that Pete Rose should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, that is a different HOF that operates under a different set of rules than the NFL HOF. The NFL HOF does not seem to concern itself with conduct outside of the game, and I think they are right to do so, in contrast to the MLB HOF seemingly being obsessed with a potential candidates conduct outside of the game. I also find it rather hypocritical of the MLB HOF to hold new candidates to a standard that they do not also hold to those who are already enshrined. For instance, if "Shoeless" Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are forbidden from being enshrined in the MLB HOF, why is Ty Cobb allowed to remain. Surely, his conduct off the field was as bad if not worse than anything they did. Or, is the name of the game, get into the MLB HOF before they find out about your misconduct and you are untouchable? I for one applaud the NFL HOF for staying out of the judging of character and simply enshrining the players that they feel were the best.
He deserved to be in the Hall of Fame.
TwinSisters
Veteran
I agree, Harvey does and Irvin should wait in line.
Harvey changed the game, Irvin played it.
The Hall is not honoured by Irvin, Irvin is honoured by the Hall.
Texasian
Practice Squad
Bottomline:
He's in!
Done!
End of story!
He's in and it was voted by the committee (which I am sure some had a hard time deciding)
Want to vent, complain to your local media representative (like politics
), John McClain for voting him in (though I agree with the vote to put him in)
He's in!
Done!
End of story!
He's in and it was voted by the committee (which I am sure some had a hard time deciding)
Want to vent, complain to your local media representative (like politics
), John McClain for voting him in (though I agree with the vote to put him in)
281
Veteran
he was a great player... same reason i think it's perfectly fine for o.j. to remain in the hall. baseball is stupid for the whole pete rose thing.
TexansTrueFan
All Pro
Cause alot of people have used marijuana, so what,,,,,If u hadnt tried chicken ONCE how would you have known if youd like it our not,,,,haha come on and u cant keep someone out cause he was somewhere, where a rape case MIGHT have happened. Lord i guess the national inquier is the news source i should start reading.
DatTexBoy
Waterboy
I wanted to see if anyone brought his name up 1st but I see you thought of his as well
Huge
All Pro
Harvey Martin not being in the Hall has nothing to do with Irvin. Same for Cliff Harris or Bob Hayes. If those 3 never make it (and that'd be a crime), does that mean they should keep Irvin (another deserving player) out as well?
Really stupid logic.
And when have you heard Irvin crying about the Hall? He was interviewed each year he didn't make it and expressed his disappointment about not getting in. If that makes him a crybaby, then he's lumped with every other "crybaby" finalist that didn't make it in and were disappointed about it.
Again, really stupid logic.
And think about your depth chart. You're putting Irvin as the 3rd/4th best WR over an entire decade. A decade which was dominated by WRs. And yet you don't think that's worthy of going into the Hall?
Again, really stupid logic.
Notice all these WRs that are 6'3 or taller getting drafted higher than the shorter WRs? Irvin had something to do with that.TwinSisters said:
Martin was no doubt a great player and he'd be my choice as the next Cowboys player to go in. But he didn't impact the game anymore/less than Irvin.
TwinSisters
Veteran
There's no stupid logic about it all, really.
He should wait for his turn, instead of crying about not getting his due. There are other guys that shoud be in well ahead of him, because he is was not big enough or made a big enough impact on the game.
He works for ESPN and is a complete clutz. He's banking or cashing in on his "ESPN audience" approval, not his field play. Those same dolts that feed the writers that in turn voted him in this year.
---
Although I will concede one point... he did open the door and pave the way for other big mouth WRs like Owens. He should get credit for that.
He should wait for his turn, instead of crying about not getting his due. There are other guys that shoud be in well ahead of him, because he is was not big enough or made a big enough impact on the game.
He works for ESPN and is a complete clutz. He's banking or cashing in on his "ESPN audience" approval, not his field play. Those same dolts that feed the writers that in turn voted him in this year.
---
Although I will concede one point... he did open the door and pave the way for other big mouth WRs like Owens. He should get credit for that.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I love watching Huge TwinSisters go at it.
Huge
All Pro
We agree there should be others in ahead of him (like previously mentioned Harvey Martin). Where we disagree is that you have the idea that two wrongs (keeping Irvin out because Martin has yet to be voted in) makes a right. To me, that's stupid logic. Though it's equally stupid that Martin (along with Hayes and Harris) is not in.
But again, where have you seen Irvin crying about not getting in the Hall? 'Cause if Irvin is a crybaby, where does that put Harry Carson? He wanted his name removed from consideration because of his frustration.
Rick Gosselin of The Dallas Morning News, USA Today's Jarrett Bell, and Troy Aikman were the ones presenting Irvin's case for the Hall this year. Is this the "ESPN audience" you're referring to?TwinSisters said:
TwinSisters
Veteran
It's not stupid. You want to reward a crybaby. I don't.
That's smart.
It's like not feeding pigeons. Cause if you feed pigeons they are going to hang around crapping all over thing waiting for you to feed them.
Case:
Martin was a drunk, drug addict, wife beater, kid beater, and generally a really all round mean fella. He's not in the Ring. No sir, not him. Nobody in church capitol of the world wants that type of guy up there with the likes of Irvin. .. o wait Irvin is in the Ring? My, my, have times changed with the arrival of Jerry Jones.
Martin:
from wikipedia via CBS
That's close to 30 years now. The Cowboys have had 3 Super Bowl teams and a handful of playoff games since then. Like that one where Joe is putting it on the money for "the Catch", beautiful man... poetry .. like higher forms of fine art or something. That stuff could hang right up there with a Picasso.
Anyway, where was I?
O yeah... Martin's records stand for 25-30 years.
AFTER Irvin's really small body of work stands for 20 years, then maybe we should give Irvin a little nod and some "ME" time. I mean, we really should let the baby grow some grey hairs on his chest first before putting him in the Hall. And really he should have to wait until Jerry Rice is in. You know, after Jerry Rice would be his time. As it was on the field, so it should be in the Hall.
BUT that muddies my point a little.
Martin didn't pitch a hissy fit about the Hall of Fame and thus is not in it with equal amounts of off field problems and surely equal amounts of field production. He was the Co-MVP of a Super Bowl.
Irvin crys and gets in.
That's the difference. Nothing but the crying.
You cry and the little Joe Bucks, Aikmans, and rootin tootin Cowboy writers all across America start to flash their maternal instincts. Just like they do for lil' baby Romo... and just like they did for Irvin.
P.S.
Martin ain't the only one that should be in before Irvin.
P.P.S.
Don't sully Carson in a topic with Irvin. That's just not right. Cowpokes have no shame.
P.P.P.S.
forget about the ESPN and Madden boys angle... it's just as valid though. The readership of the Hall voters is stocked with little kiddies that have never even played football. They watch HBO shows and think a stiff arm has something to do with a button combo. These writers know the score and what feeds them... and those lil cowboys luuuuv Michael Irvin. Diss Irvin, diss your readership and end up on the unemployment line.
"he's the greatest ever.. like when he does that thing with his arm. He's like .mmmph...mmmph. Man, that's so real and fresh."
bah007
Hall of Fame
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Wait his turn? The guy is in his 3rd year and had the stats and the rings to make it without hesitation. People don't even like him on ESPN. This is a completely useless argument. Here is something else
Irvin in 12 seasons ranked in the top 10 in receptions 4 times, in yards 6 times and in TD's 5 times. He pretty much was the leader on a team that won 3 SBs.
Huge
All Pro
That's a lot of time spent trying to convince me something I already agree with (Martin should be in the Hall of Fame).
Again...agreed (see previous comments concerning Bob Hayes and Cliff Harris). An argument could also be made for Chuck Howley. Only Super Bowl MVP from a losing team. 6-time Pro Bowler. 6-time All Pro. 25 career INTs...as a LB (14 more than Carson). 14 Fumble recoveries (same as Carson).TwinSisters said:
Yeah, you're right.TwinSisters said:
Wikidpedia said:
SamuraiSword
Waterboy
A lot of Houstonians hate the Cowboys as well. I see alot of hatred now a days because the cowboys were dominant during the late 80's and early 90's. Its kinda stupid in my opinion the past is the past deal with it.
bah007
Hall of Fame
A lot of Houstonians hate the Cowboys as well. I see alot of hatred now a days because the cowboys were dominant during the late 80's and early 90's. Its kinda stupid in my opinion the past is the past deal with it.
I'm a Texans and Cowboys fan.
I dont understand why fans on this board have decided that you arent a Texans fan unless you hate the Cowboys.
I'm always fascinated by people that don't like the Cowboys but can pull up fact after fact about them.
For the most part if I don't care for something I don't bother.
And I always thought that Too Tall was a better player than Harvey and I liked Harvey. But the one that made that DL go was Randy White.
For the most part if I don't care for something I don't bother.
And I always thought that Too Tall was a better player than Harvey and I liked Harvey. But the one that made that DL go was Randy White.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Agreed. Grew up there in Ft. Worth. I've explained this many times. It makes no sense. I don't think people up there give a rats tail about the hatred compared to here. I grew up loving football and though Dallas was my team and always has been, I thought that Texas teams were great. I loved the Oilers with Earl and had an older brother that went to UT when he was there. I liked the Astros and Rockets too despite being a Mavs and Rangers fan. When I moved here in 93 I saw the Rockets win 2 titles and was fired up and I waited on a football team. I could go on but all I can say is haveng a least favorite team is fine but when people just bash for bashing sake it looks like a giant case of P envy.
BTW, 9 teams have more HOF than the Cowboys despite 8 SB appearances and 5 wins. Harvey, Too Tall, Waters, Harris, Hayes, etc all sit out there.
Texasian
Practice Squad
Amen, but I still hate the Mavs
Texasian
Practice Squad
Ditto. Fans like us (along with HoustonFrog) appreciate the fact that we have 2 teams in the state or for that matter many teams to cheer for. Not many have this previlege. Everyone talks about 'Texas Pride' but I think the unacknowledgement of other cities in this state is full of jealousy and envy. How do you know 'Texas Pride' when you can't have an objective conversation about a player from another Texas team?
BTW here in DFW there is no mention of Bruce Matthews, so the same goes here!
UGHHH!!!! APPRECIATE IT!
Well, as an NFL football fan living in Houston, you either watch all the Dallas Cowboys games or often have no football to watch at all. (Back in the day when the Oilers games would get blacked out, the Cowboys games were the default if you wanted your football fix.)
My love for NFL football is much greater than my dislike for the Dallas Cowboys.
Apparently talent isn't a criteria being considered by you for going into the Hall of Fame. It would be really bad if the Hall of Fame turned into a pageant, or people waiting in line for the featured entre. Then we would have folk singing the praises of such stand up people as Kurt Warner, Giff Neilson, etc. as shoo ins.
BattleRedToro
Thread Killer
What do you mean by vile confederate bilge? That doesn't make any sense.
I think you meant Officer Hightower.
Throwing Kurt Warner in with Neilson isn't really fair. Atleast Warner was a starter on a Super Bowl Championship team.
TwinSisters
Veteran
Not true at all.
But first a little note:
The original topic was Irvin and Rose and baseball and football. That was already debated to conclusion. The subtopic is Irvin and when he should go in.
We will take Carson as the stick, since Huge likes him.
SUBJECT A:
Carson Pro-Bowl LB from 1978 to 1987. Retired 1988ish.
Cried about not getting into the HOF.
Put into the Hall 2006. Let's just say that's 17 years for easy math.
Carson was never the DOMINANT LB in his career, that goes to LT.
SUBJECT B:
Irvin Pro-Bowl WR for 5 paltry years. ( the exact same number that Moss and Owens have had... and slightly above par for any good WR that plays )
Cried about not getting into the HOF.
Put into the Hall 2007. That's about 7 years I think.
Irvin was never the DOMINANT WR in his career, that goes to RICE.
What's really at issue is that he and all the little Cowpers everywhere wanted him as a FIRST BALLOT HOFer. Which he is not.
And if we are going to give awards to crybabies, then Irvin shouldn't be in the Hall until 2017.
How long it takes you to get into the Hall is already a precedent set. The real uproar comes from all the paddyboys that wanted their hero in on the first ballot.
---
As to Bills fan charges:
Right on, you are close. I am the founding member of the League of Commerce First in Rhode Island. Our ticket is to bring the Cowboys to a state that truely deserves them. A state that embodies their spirit. It's the NFC EAST and in the interest of geographic correctness, the Cowboys should call us home. The Cranton Cowboys... hot damn! Our motto is Hope. In this here audacity of hope, we dream of the Cowboys. America's Team, America's Dream... the Cranton Cowboys 2008.
Won't even have to change the logo.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
As if there can only be one dominant player at a position at a time. Guaranteed every coach the Cowboys faced game planned to stop him. Heck, there were reports throughout his career of coaches sending in tapes ahead of the games to the refs because Irvin was changing the way the position was played.
TwinSisters
Veteran
That is about offensive pass interference, not his ability to play.
If that's grounds for an early entry into the Hall of Fame, then Kenny Stabler should have his mail box stuffed with apologies from the past 60 or so writers due to the fumble rule change. Or whatever it is called...from that Holy Roller play.
A positive change is like Martin that helped define defensive lineman as pass rushers. Taylor that redefined the role of linebackers.
Dent has a whole defense built around him... and he didn't get the nod AGAIN. The 85 Bears defense is still one of the best ever fielded.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The refs disagreed with your assessment and GM's and coaches have since looked for players in his mold.
TwinSisters
Veteran
That is not correct.
http://www.cowboysplus.com/classic/webspecials/michaelirvin/071200irvin.html
dated July 12 2000.
And Jones is... well, let's just play nice.
There are at least a hundred rules that have been changed by non-Hall of Fame players... everything from stick'em to spearing with your helmet to the horse collar tackle.
You should be able to trust that source too. Irvin is a glory hound that doesn't know his place, the chump is talking Ring of Honor and Hall of Fame from his own mouth... I bet before he had even collected his first pension check.
Cowboy fans are only so happy to oblige him.
and good for them. They need something to talk about in Vermont.. New Hampshire... Delaware... Connecticut... Maine... New Jersey.